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Predestination a Biblical Teaching

What is the Biblical teaching on Predestination?

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 ---Anna on 4/7/05
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Without the Holy Spirit, no one can know the truth, no one can claim Jesus is Lord to the glory of God.
People, the Holy Spirit is God. He has to make His Truth known to you. He has to open you eyes to see and ears to hear, and give you a heart to perceive. Otherwise you don't hear, see, or perceive the things of God.
"You have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh and to all his servants and to all his land. The great trial which your eyes have seen, the signs, and those great wonders. Yet the Lord has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this day."
Everyone lost finds themselves in that same condition.
---MarkV. on 3/2/10


The truth is offered through God's word lee.
that is why we have the 5 fold gifts.
To spread the word of God so people can hear and receive it.
Calvin believed some were destined for hell and that is NOT true according to God's word, so no I have no use for his false doctrine.
---miche3754 on 3/2/10


//All man has to do is ACCEPT THAT TRUTH. And it is the accepting of God's truth that is man's choice.

True but if and only if that truth is offered to him (or her).

And it is very questionable if it is man's choice to accept God's truth as some people like the Apostle Paul did not seem to have much choice. God can so manifest Himself that it would be very hard to reject that truth.

Again this goes back to what Calvin believed in grace being irresistible.

Even if you have little use for Calvin, you would find that nearly everything he believed to be true is based on an interpretation based on Scripture alone AND what Calvin believed was also the same positions held my many of his predecessors.
---Lee1538 on 3/2/10


Yes, Lee, and I agree with you on all of that.
BUT how is it the father draws?

BY the Holy Spirit!!!!!
By the teaching and preaching of God's word!

Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the WORD of God, lee.
God has already proven himself to man to be TRUE.
All man has to do is ACCEPT THAT TRUTH.
And it is the accepting of God's truth that is man's choice.
God has set before us life and death but he does not choose for us, lee. we have to choose what the Potter has set before us.
God controls the choices that are set before us but he does not make us do anything. Forced love is not love at all, right?
---miche3754 on 3/2/10


John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Again Lee1538 takes John 6:44out of context. The Father did draw the disciples to Christ before he went to the Cross. There are two completely different drawings here. When Christ and the CROSS be lifted up as Jesus spoke in John 3:14-16 which is the Preaching of the GOSPEL..the Gospel being the death and resurrection fo Christ ***1st Cor 15:1-4***...THAT is the POWER of God unto SALVATION the one JESUS now draws us to.

Lee1538 please study to show yourself approved of GOD. Anyone can study and quote Calvinism!!!
---kathr4453 on 3/2/10




Lee1538, if you were trapped on your roof by a flood, and God sent a life boat out to save and rescue those trapped, would it not be your free will to decide to get on the raft and find safety and salvation?

God is not going to FORCE you to get on the raft. God did his part, you must do yours.

The LAMB of God Jesus Christ, my friends has been slain for ALL to find salvation and reconcilliation with God. The life boat is sent out....get on it.
---kathr4453 on 3/2/10


God is deciding. "Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?" (Romans 9:21) A potter decides and also has hands-on total control of what becomes of each piece of clay. We all come from the same lump, the same as Saddam Hussein and our Apostle Paul and the Pope and Adolph and me and you and the moderator (c: So, what do I have to boast about? Is my "free will" superior, somehow, so I chose Jesus while someone else's was inferior so they didn't? If we started so equal, why did I make a good choice and someone else made a bad choice? Something is not equal, or we would all choose in an equal way.
---Bill_bila5659 on 3/2/10


John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Do you have a better interpretation of this verse?

While salvation is by believing in Christ - "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life" - a present possession.

I question if everyone will or be given an opportunity to believe.

---Lee1538 on 3/2/10

Lee, Jesus answer your doubts in v 45 "It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."
---Ruben on 3/2/10


//God does not select who is saved and who is not.

Salvation is then in our hands??????

Is it not a matter of the soverignity of God in doing what He wishes with His creation?

Romans 9:18-21 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will? who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, Why have you made me like this? Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use?

I am not saying I like the doctrine but will not impose my standard of right or wrong onto what God has stated in His Word.
---Lee1538 on 3/2/10


Miche3754//I believe what God says- "WHO SO EVER WILL BELIEVE ON THE SON SHALL HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE"!!!!!!!!

I do also but must believe what the Scripture states in that no one can come to Jesus UNLESS the Father draws him.

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Do you have a better interpretation of this verse?

While salvation is by believing in Christ - "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life" - a present possession.

I question if everyone will or be given an opportunity to believe.

Of course, that is our concept of what is fair, but it does not have to be His.
---Lee1538 on 3/2/10




Isaiah 55:7
Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts. Let him turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

The same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

God will NEVER ask you to do something you are not capable of doing.

And for those who take Romans 9 out of context:

Jonah 2:8 NIV "Those who cling to worthless idols forfeit the grace that could be theirs.

STUDY to show yourselves approved RIGHTLY dividing the word of TRUTH.
---kathr4453 on 3/2/10


//Called by God according to His purpose and will, from the foundation of the world, justifies us, and will also glorify us whom He called.

But MarkV that kicks the belief that one can save themselves by our own efforts simply by obeying all the laws given in the OT.

While they say we are not justified by the law, they tell us that only those who follow the law can become righteous enough to be saved - if they are allowed the time to do so and if the grace God provides enables them to earn their salvation.
---Lee1538 on 3/2/10


Lee, Jesus is holding back the same wrath that was let loose on Sodom and Gomorrah.
in the NT, God is shown as a God of love, patience, and long-suffering "not willing that ANY should parish."
God does not select who is saved and who is not.
Anyone that goes to hell is there by their own fault because they didn't believe the truth.
as I recall, God sent Angels to see if there was any worth saving before he destroyed the cities.
God always gives a warning. And it was not us he chose from the beginning, it was Christ. You and Markv can have your "elite""I am chosen and you aren't" beliefs.
I believe what God says- "WHO SO EVER WILL BELIEVE ON THE SON SHALL HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE"!!!!!!!!
---miche3754 on 3/2/10


Predestined means to have purposed or determined before hand.

Concerning the CHURCH, Christ was predestined to be the first born among those Born Again make up His Body by the New Birth, Paul was given the ministry of, and the revelation of the MYSTERY (Christ in you, Col 1:24-27) that WE should be conformed to His Image. How? Phil 3, to be conformed to His death and resurrection life, have a heavenly calling. The Church, something totally NEW, being on equal footing, consisting of both Jew and Gentile was unheard of in the OT!

God also predestined before the foundation of the world OT Israel ( Jacobs descendents) to be Gods servant on earth. Jacob I loved, Esau I hated, also called His Elect.
---kathr4453 on 3/2/10


//Anyone who believes different and believes that God chose a specific people, don't understand God is LOVE not hate.

While it is true that God is love and not hate, He is also a holy God and will not tolerate evil.

We can see that easily on what He did to Sodom and Gomorrah (think of all those innocent babies who were burned up!)

And we can see what He did to the people that He led out of Egypt. Many died due to plagues, snake bites, ground opening up, etc. and at God's direction.

Some loving God!!!!

God has indeed selected a people unto Himself, they are the Elect as not everyone is drawn to salvation but predestined even before the foundation of the world. Eph. 1:4, 2:20
---Lee1538 on 3/2/10


We have the written word so that we can know the Truth, "And we know (we believers) that all things work together for good to those who love God, (only believers love God) to those who are the called according to His Purpose, (according to God's purpose believers were called ) For whom He foreknew (those He called for His purpose) He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He (God) might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover, whom He predestined, these He also called, whom He called, these He also justified, and whom He justified, these He also glorified"
Called by God according to His purpose and will, from the foundation of the world, justifies us, and will also glorify us whom He called.
---MarkV. on 3/2/10


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Just wanted to say amen to Nana and Francis.
That is exactly the truth of God's word.

Anyone who believes different and believes that God chose a specific people, don't understand God is LOVE not hate.
They don't understand that God clearly said
"Whosoever will believe in Jesus will NEVER die, but have everlasting life".
---miche3754 on 3/2/10


Nana-- Remember, he word "should" is used in different ways. Websters says it can be

used in auxiliary function to express futurity from a point of view in the past
Example--she realized that she should have to do most of her farm work before sunrise.

This usage was VERY common in past generations.
I don't know Greek, but at least five translations use the word "would" or the sense that it will be accomplished.

NIV puts it this way: "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love". NAS says "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love".
---Donna66 on 3/2/10


Ephesians 2:10 "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."
God defined "good works", they are a standard prepared beforehand "that we should walk in them."
It does not say, 'that we walk in them', nor 'that we will walk in them'- but clearly, "that we should".

What said our Lord?
John 8:29: "And he who sent me is with me. He has not left me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to him."
---Nana on 3/1/10


Isa 46:9 Remember former things from forever, for I am God, and no other is God, even none like Me,
Isa 46:10 declaring the end from the beginning, and from the past things which were not done, saying, My purpose shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure,

Isa 46:9 We knew God "from forever", before we became the people we are by human birth.
Isa 46:10 God declared his purpose and his plans, and his desire to accomplish "things not done". We each volunteered ourselves in that place to suit a specific purpose God had in mind. We were elected to go. He then gave us earthly life and all the tools to accomplish our chosen task. If we fulfill it, we please, magnify and glorify God.
---Elaine on 3/1/10


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Predestination is this:
God has predestined that anyone, and all who accept Jesus as saviour would be saved.
God did this from the very begining, since adam and eve.

It is not that God choose a group of people who would be saved, and " predestined" them to be saved.

It is that he had a plan, and the plan predestined all who would accept the death of Jesus to be saved.
---francis on 3/1/10


Isa 46:9 Remember former things from forever, for I am God, and no other is God, even none like Me,
Isa 46:10 declaring the end from the beginning, and from the past things which were not done, saying, My purpose shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure,
Isa 46:11 calling a bird of prey from the east, the man of my purpose from a far country. Yes, I have spoken, I will also cause it to come, I have formed, yes, I will do it.

everything is predestinated just as Christ was crucified before the foundation of the world
---steven-rem7000 on 3/1/10


There's different views on how to interpret the scriptures, but one can be found in Ephesians, Chapter One. Some read it to mean you specifically have been chosen by God to live for him, and others believe that goes against free will, and what he is saying there is that he predestined us not to be saved,but to be holy. In other words, he has created us all for his glory, and does not exclude anyone from salvation, and he has called us to be holy, but because of free will we have a choice to go against that. Hope this helps.
---Katie on 3/16/07


I want to thank you sister from my heart for having the courage to come out and defend God' Sovereigny. Many already do know but feel they might not be prepared. I know others did come forward too and thanks to them. I don't know much about you but what I know I am so happy, to God the glory.
---Lupe2618 on 5/25/05


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I don't know who God wants to show His Soverignty to so I just work as hard as I can to learn more and more. I know he prepares us to a task He has for us for a reason. The most important thing in this doctrine is that God gets all of the glory in salvation, and even when He tells us in Eph. that we are save by grace, and not of ourselves, people still want to believe the other way. I always wondered what they are doing to all the other scriptures that God gave us. So many.
---Lupe2618 on 5/24/05


I struggle to put things in order but they just didn't work. The pastor would say some awesome attribute about God one week and the next they would say something about how it was our choice. I don't think they even realized how they were using both system together. I now realize that Christians believe it is not important enought to at least check to see if what they are been taught is right or not.
---Lupe2618 on 5/24/05


sister Shiela, thank you for the study you have put in these. I once had many questions on scriture. I didn't know anything about the doctrine of God's Sovereignty. I use to have problems with free will because I always wondered how someone that cannot see, is dead spiritually, with hope, plus walking to the prince of the air, Satan, how could someone in that state come to Christ. I struggled and asked many questions to other Christians and they did not have an answer for me.
---lupe2618 on 5/24/05


Pek on 5/24/05-Bible doesn't specifically talk about those predestined for eternal death.My guess is I don't know the answer to that,so I don't want to try to answer that.I do know God predestines people to be saved.Whomever believes in Jesus does it cuz God gave them their faith,& cuz of it they may not perish.Whomever seeks God does so cuz He called them to,& cuz of it He'll draw closer to them.
---Sheila on 5/24/05


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We are all called to witness to the lost. if you notice that election is not a concern for unbelievers. But it does concern believers, who are already saved. They already have eternal life. But now they question how they got there. This has been going on since Erasmus, James Arminius, and others tried to introduce man the determinator of his destiney. While others have always held to dying to God's Sovereignty.
---Lupe2618 on 5/24/05


In order to offer the message to the elect, he must offer it to all; and the Scriptures command the elect must hear before they can believe and accept, Romans 10:13-17).The elect thus receive the message as the promise of salvation, but to the non-elect it appears only as foolishness, or if their conscience is aroused, as a judgment to condemnation. as a rule, the non-elect are not concerned about salvation, do not envy the elect their hope of salvation. rather they laugh and scorn at them.
---Lupe2618 on 5/24/05


Brother Pek, I will give you an example. Please hear me out. You don't have to believe this. The decree of election is a secret decree. Only God knows. And since no revelation has been given to the preacher as to which ones among his hearers are elect and which are not-elect it is not possible for him to present the Gospel to the elect only. It is his duty to look with hope on all those to whom he is preaching, and to pray for them that they may each be among the elect.
---Lupe2618 on 5/24/05


Brother, you answered your own question. there is a condition in that verse, of salvation. The condition is "believes". it must mean the others didn't. Only the one that believes has eternal life.
---Lupe2618 on 5/24/05


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Funny I don't know anyone has mentioned this. Supposing we share gospel to a group of people and some come up for Christ and the rest does not, can I say those turn away are already predestined to condemnation? To know that and yet share with them the Gospel, am I lying or God is lying too when God without qualification says in Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, .......that WHOWOEVER believes on him may not perish, but have life eternal. God cannot be a lying? How can predestination insult God.
---pek on 5/24/05


Phia, I read one of your answers on another question and you mention Erasmus. On the material you presented, where did you get the information? I am interested in knowing so I can put in my information study. Thank you for your answer to this question. I do not know what Phia means.
---Lupe2618 on 5/23/05


Predestination and Election are two terms that are related. Man was given a state of free will, but being in a state of free will is being in a state of rebellion against God. You have to renounce you state of free will to accept Gods plan for tour life.

Humankind is in two subsets, the Elect and those in Reprobation. Salvation is open only to the Elect.

Christians must witness to both groups because we dont know who is in what group.

Phia4633 Phil
---phia4633 on 5/20/05


I want to thank you brother Pek for your answers, and all the brothers that give answers for they are searching more of God. I believe this blogs in Christianet are of God. For even if some get angry at some answers God knows which people He will touch. I thank this website for having it in their heart to decide to do them.
---Lupe2618 on 5/17/05


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Brother Alan mention, Lupe we are back to the same problem. I know he is right, because it is our problem not God's. We have so much that we don't want to give up. through this decusions we continue to learn more and more because we search. We might do it with a different intention but God uses it for good. Everything with a purpose.
---Lupe2618 on 5/17/05


Now what stops us from giving Him all the glory? well I believe it is pride. We all have it. I mention me too because many times I don't want to give up something that God wants me to give up. Am I submissive? not all the time. My old nature is still there.
---Lupe2618 on 5/17/05


He mentions to us how He chose Adam, Seth Joshua, Moses, Abraham, all the others like Paul. He has done all the chosing all through scripture. through sin He even gets glory to show us His attributes, for without sin there could be no mercy,Justice, grace. They would have stayed in darkness for ever. Yes, God is in control and not man.
---Lupe2618 on 5/17/05


Brother Pek, the bible isn't about us, it is about God. He is the focus in scripture from beginning to end. He shows His Sovereignty from the beginning in creation to the end times. He explains to us from the start all about His character. All of His attributes come forward to show us who He is. And yet all through scripture He tells us how bad we are. He is who He says He is. He didn't have to create, He could have remain for all enternity as He was.
---Lupe2618 on 5/17/05


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When belief is for entire force of predestination, the chosen are saved, there is no need for God to provide the salvation plan. Bible records only two were taken up without seeing death. I incline to follow God's salvation plan to be like a life line, anyone touches it is saved. Jesus' claim of Him being the only way to God the Father and His teaching of ASK>SEEK>KNOCK then have meaning. Rev 14:6 seems to give everyone a chance to be saved. God even says, seek Me and you shall find ME.
---pek on 5/16/05


We are even told in Scripture that Christ was "foreknown indeed (as a sacrifice for sin) before the foundations of the world," 1Peter 1:20. Paul speaks of "the eternal purpose" which was purposed in Jesus Christ our Lord, Eph. 3:11. and since the plan of redemption is thus traced back into eternity, the plan to permit man to fall into the sin from which he was thus to be redeemed must also extent back into eternity; otherwise there would have been no occasion for redemption.
---Lupe2618 on 5/13/05


Ann, I wanted to mention that Predestination changes nothing in us the believers. We still have salvation, we still have to witness to others, we don't know who the elect are. we lose nothing we already have but God gains all of the glory in our salvation. You begin to see why some are born crippled, and some in good health, why some never get the chance to receive the Gospel and we do. we are assure that He will never leave us, that because He lives, we live also.
---Lupe2618 on 5/12/05


these is shown more planely in Romans 11:2-5, where we read, "God did not cast off His people whom He (foreknew.)brother Pek. I thank you for dicussing scripture with me and others. Just maybe many don't need to know this things so it is up to them. If you have some scriptures for me I will be glad to look them up. Thank you again
---Lupe2618 on 5/12/05


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that He might be the firstborn among many brethren; and whom He foreordained, them He also called; and whom He called, them He also justified; and whom He justified, them He also glorified." Those in Romans 8:29 are foreknown in the sense that they are fore-appointed to be the special objects of His favor.
---Lupe2618 on 5/12/05


Jesus is said to "Know" His sheep, John 10:14,27; and to the wicked He is to say, "I never(knew)you." Never meaning they were never elected. Matt. 7:23. In the first Psalm we read, Jehovah (knoweth) the way of the righteous, but the way of the wicked shall perish." In Romans 8:29,30 we read: "For whom He foreknew, He also foreordained to be conformed to the image of His Son,
---Lupe2618 on 5/12/05


Pek, thank you for your response. I will do my best. First, Foreknowledge refers only to God. The word know, knew, and known almost always refers to the special and peculiar objects of God's favor,"The Elect" as when it was said of the Jews, "you only have I (known) of all the families of the earth," Amos3:2, Paul wrote, "If any man loveth God, the same is (known) of Him,"1 Cor.8:3,
---Lupe2618 on 5/12/05


I think the believers would have no problem on the teaching of predestination. The problem is we are concerned about the predestination vis-a-vis those whom God has predestined them to otherwise. As believers we certainly want to keep up to for 'God so loved the world....thing'. How can we see unfeeling for those who say are predestined to die unsaved. The world over Christians are reaching out to the uttermost of the earth. On account of predestination, is there any need to evangelise the Muslim?
---pek on 5/11/05


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I saw alan from uk ask a question on predestination but with a comment in another area. I will try to answer his questions too if possible. I myself have no problem with what God does. It is His creation and not mine. I only give Him thanks and praise for having mercy on me. I didn't deserve it.
---Lupe2618 on 5/10/05


To even suggest that God was taken by surprise in Eden and now He is trying to correct that problem is to suggest that God is mortal. To argue that man is a free moral person and the determiner of his own destiny, and that therefore he has the power to checkmate God, is to take away God's attribute of Omnipotence. We have to think and check everything with His word. God's grace is so important. If we have something to do with salvation then grace is not grace. All has to connect. The whole Bible. Thank you Anna.
---Lupe on 5/6/05


It is not what we feel or think, it is what God has wrote in Scripture. His sovereignty exist to a Sparrow falling from the sky to the number of hairs in our head. He is the Potter and we are but the clay. God is not obligated to anyone. people are slave to sin and God shows His mercy. If Satan is defeating the purpose of God, then Satan is Almighty and God is no longer Supreme.
---Lupe on 5/6/05


Anna, I have put just a few scriptures down to what Predestination is. I am never surprise that others don't want to hear this beautiful doctrine. Rom.9:11,12, say, "Being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth." God chose all through Scripture everyone, He is on the throne. For He is Sovereign
---lupe on 5/5/05


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I had questions in the beginning about what was taught. I didn't know what to do with so many Scriptures that speak of God's Sovereignty. What about all the one's Jesus talks about? Do we just forget them? If He wanted He could have saved everyone. He has the power. Why really do we pray to God to change someone if that someone has his own power to do it? It just doesn't make any sense. How can a blind man see? How can he come alive and make a decision? Something has to happen to him first and that is the Holy Spirit has to quicken his heart.
---Lupe on 5/5/05


Romans 8:7-8, The fleshly mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. John 6:65 "This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless the Father has unable him." There is a condition. John3:3, "most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of Heaven." We do not believe in order to be born again, we are born again in order that we may believe. John 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires." that's who we were. Read Eph.2:1-10.
---Lupe on 5/5/05


So Lupe, we are back to the old problem that God has created millions upon millions of Human beings, whom He has not intention aof calling, and whom He has therefore created just so He can send them to Hell (or whatever you care to call it)

Loving God?
---Alan_of_U.K. on 5/5/05


continued, I wanted to also say that Grace is very important in this doctrine Anna. By grace we have been saved. Nadab and Abihu found out how important God's grace was. Just remember, that a blind, dead, with no love for God, walking to the prince of the air, without hope, cannot make a decision for Christ. The Holy Spirit has to do something to us first.
---Lupe on 5/5/05


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Sister Anna, the doctrine of Predestination is a doctrine that is not taught much anymore in the churches so its hard to present anything of value through this blog. I believe that when mentioned to others they become prideful and sometimes get mad. The church teaches mostly Arminianism. Man in contol of his salvation while predestination teaches that God is in control and chooses the church for Christ. With Predestination God gets all the glory, with Arminianism man gets some of it for having chosen Christ.
---Lupe on 5/5/05


God is Sovereign. If true that man has a free will, then why do so many people that have a lost son or daughter or friend go to God in prayer for them to be change? If God does not start the regeneration, then I guess we should pray to the person that is lost. Jesus makes it clear who saves us in John 6:66 God has to enable the person first. Salvation is by grace along, "Grace is imparted to sinful man, not because he believes, but in order that he may believe, for faith itself is a gift of God. John 15:16, Eph. 1:4 chosen from the beginning.
---Lupe on 5/3/05


Emcee ... if you read my earlier posts on this blog, you will see I do not hold that extreme view of the doctrine.
---Alan_of_U.K. on 4/14/05


Emcee ... if you re-read my post you will see that I am assuming nothing

You say: "Your second para suggests that you are drawing a line of comparison, between mans ways & gods ways so you are assuming that HE has predetermined people to hell"

If you re-read my post you will see that I am assuming nothing. I am commenting on the extreme Predestination doctrine which says (and 1 Peter v2 (chosen) is claimed by some to support this) that God selected those whom He would call to be saved.

With that doctrine, my second paragraph follows
---Alan_of_U.K. on 4/14/05


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Alan of uk:Yes He is a God of love that is why he gave us a choice of free will.There is a missing link in the predestinaton theory He knows the answer & you dont,& neither does any one else. Your second para suggests that you are drawing a line of comparison, between mans ways & gods ways so you are assuming that HE has predetermined people to hell. That is a falacy because its mans sin& denial that gains him admittance to hell.The one with sin is the lost sheep.LIfe on this earth is a testing ground.
---Emcee on 4/13/05


God knows all things but He does not condemn anyone to hell in advance(everyone still has a personal decision to make). However, because God does know in advance who will and who will not accept Jesus, He can put people and circumstances in their life to help move them in the direction of that choice. It is not a "chicken or the egg" situation - you simply have to let the Holy Spirit balance all of the Word with itself.
---Anthony on 4/13/05


None has found the only answer to Predestination. Either you believe you are born again chosen or you have chosen life of eternity by belief in Jesus Christ predestined as and when Adam and Eve fell to temptation. God knows all events before and after but cannot He choose not to know if He gives you freewill of choice like all parents treating their children. Where do you incline to follow?
---Pek on 4/12/05


Emcee ... the problem is that the extreme Predestination doctrine says that it is Pre-ordained, or decided before we are born, who will have the faith that is needed to be saved.

Now if true, that is cruel by human standards, and means that God, since He is the creator of all things, chooses to create human beings, who he has already consigned to Hell

God of Love?

You see the problem?
---Alan_of_U.K. on 4/12/05


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This to me seems a preposterous question & using Holy Scripture is even worse.Why would we try to out guess God.What is the purpose, If God alone knows our predestination, so by asking this question are you trying to prove God wrong? you will never know the answer so dont speculate it seems so unchristian like: Faith Trust & belief is all that is required of us together with a good dose of love.God bless
---Emcee on 4/11/05


My crazy idea that God does want to live like you and me. While He has omniscience, He would rather surrender it. Just imagine if you have it, how would it pain you to know anyone who will go through grevious death or if it happens to yourself instead? Jesus said only the Father knows the End Times. He did away His omniscience.
---Pek on 4/11/05


God has known all about us from the beginning of time. He knew long before we were born whether we would serve Him or not. Predestination means only that God has known from the beginning those that will serve Him. Betty
---Betty on 4/8/05


It is difficult, but not impossible, to change fated-theodicy. With prescribed fate we still have Freewill, and can choose to deviate from predestination. The Scriptures give numerous accounts of God changing his mind about what he purposed to do to people, all depending upon how they choose to live. The righteous are blessed and the disobedient are damned, and when the sinner rightens themself they too become blessed, this truth never changes whether you are saved or a nonbeliever.
---Eloy on 4/8/05


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PART ONE:

John Calvin developed the following logic: It is known as Calvins TULIP and is the basis of Calvinism and the doctrine of predestination..

T -- total depravity. Everyone is born in sin and cannot save himself
U -- unconditional election. The saved are not chosen (predestined) on the basis of their own merit.
L -- limited atonement. Jesus died ONLY for those who will be saved.
I -- irresistible grace. If you are predestined to be saved you CANNOT RESIST His call.
P -- perseverence of the saints. Those people God chooses cannot lose their salvation.
---Bruce5656 on 4/7/05


PART TWO:
I have a really hard time with the concept that Jesus died ONLY for those who God has chosen to be saved but this is the logical conclusion of the doctrine of predestination.

John wrote: (1 John 2:2), "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and NOT FOR OURS ONLY, but also for the sins OF THE WHOLE WORLD."
and: Revelation 22:17, "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And LET HIM THAT IS ATHIRST COME. And WHOSOEVER WILL, let him take the water of life freely."
---Bruce5656 on 4/7/05


PART THREE:
I like to put it this way. Picture a door that has WHOSOEVER WILL written over it. You accept Gods gift of His son and pass through. When you look back at the door, you read CHOSEN over it.
---Bruce5656 on 4/7/05


Also look in the verses in Ephesians chapter 1. There is a predestination, but we will only know the predestined ones when Christ reveals them 'when the times have reached their fulfillment--to bring all things in heaven under one head, even Christ.'(Eph. 1:10)
---gregg on 4/7/05


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what would be the point in having church if we were borned saved? why would Jesus have to come and be crucified for our sins if he made us saved already? He knows when they are conceived, who will chose him and who wont, and so they are chosen for a job to do in his service ( that is where they get he predestined )hHe knew when Judas was conceived that in the future he wouldn't accept him. so he gave him a job to do,since he knew already what his heart would do.(he didnt MAKE his heart be bad) he just knew ahead of time that Judas wouldnt accept him)so he chose him to carry out the prophecy.
---jan on 4/7/05


There are often long discussions about Predestination, some say that God HAS selected before even they were born those who will chose Him.

Others say that Predestination means that God, being outside of time, knows what choice we, with free-will, will make.

The latter sounds more loving
---Alan_of_U.K. on 4/7/05


I Peter also can be interpreted as saying we are predestined ... it says we are chosen to be God's people (look up the exact words!!)

But I think that Peter was writing particularly to Jews, and was referring to the fact that God had chosen Jews to be His Race
---Alan_of_U.K. on 4/7/05


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