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What If Jesus Didn't Defeat Death

Don't missunderstand this question. If Jesus gave his life for us, but took it back 36 hours later..what, exactly , was "paid"? I'm sure your answer will be different than mine.

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 ---1st_cliff on 4/24/05
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To Whosoever has an ear to hear?

Blog Question: If Jesus gave his life for us, but took it back 36 hours later..what, exactly , was "paid"?

Blog Answer: What exactly was 'paid'?, was His Blood(where Life resides) for the wages of the sins of this world, which live under the original sin of the 'law of sin & death'.

The Life that Christ Jesus, quote unquote, "TOOK BACK(raise up into)" wasn't the same live condemned to the law of sin & death that He was born into in the earth. The Life He is now raised up into resides back under the original order of the Law of the Spirit of our Heavenly Father's Kingdom, from which He came.
---Shawn_M.T. on 12/11/08


What was given was the life of Christ.
How was it given? Through the shed blood of Christ.
The life is in the blood(as you have read in scripture) and that blood was shed for you and I and all the world. John said.
"Behold the Lamb of God that taken away the sins of the world"!!!!!!
Thank you Jesus thank you
---mima on 11/24/08


He paid for our sins. The ones He has chosen, so everyone wouldn't end up in hell. He sent back His Holy Spirit which comes to live in the true believer at the moment you are saved by His Blood. There is no other way to get to heaven, except through the Blood of Jesus Christ. This is why He came, my friend. To save those who believed the foolish message of the cross, because to an unbeliever it is all foolishness.
---catherine on 11/24/08


1st_cliff on 5/24/05-God knows what I embrace&it's He who opens my heart to the Truth of His Word.

Your answers might be comprehensive if you answered them as asked #1,#2,#3,#4,#5.Hard to impart answers when you're not clear what your answering.Please be clear,it's really not that hard.
---Sheila on 11/23/08


I thought my answers were quite comprehensive,you seam to be happy in your total indoctrination (fundamentalism). The pagan doctrines that came from Babylon,to Rome,fused with Christianity(325ad) when Luther seperated from the RC church, they were part of his baggage..down to today! Long as you embrace these you will never understand!
---1st_cliff on 10/27/07




your debt, my debt, everyones debt for all the worlds sin past present and furture.once for all. we are justified by the blood of jesus when we accept his attoning sacrifice. the wages of sin is death, he died in your place your not guilty and now because he paid the price you can now have a personal relationship through jesus with god.
---tom on 5/21/06


But Cliff, you see, the Disciples went to the WORD to learn. That is just what I was trying to get you to see and you still don't.

We have the liberty to view and use the Scripture in many ways as long as the content of the doctrine is not compromised.
Cond #2-->
---Elder on 6/6/05


Cond #2-->
The Scripture is of ONE interpretation but many applications.

When you say the Christ could have died any kind of way I understand your thought. If God had determined the Christ just die any kind of way it could be done. But Scripture prophecy said how He would die so it could only be one way.
Cond #3--->
---Elder on 6/6/05


Cond #3--->
My whole problem with this matter is that God keeps reminding me of II Tim 2:23 in dealing with you on this.

Nothing of value ever grows on the surface of the soil we must dig some to grow good roots.

God designed us to think and He gave us Scripture to guide that thinking. When we fail to include Scripture that is how Cults and Humanistic thinking gets started and confuses people.
---Elder on 6/6/05


No I was not trying to make a "long winded discussion about hell...just giving you a "for instance." I was just using "scripture and fact" as a correction! Can you picture the Scribes,Pharisees,Sadducees etc all set in their ways becomming "indignant" with Christ's gospel. After all they had the "scriptures!" and Rabbinical education!The diciples were "ignorant and unlearned men"act.4.13 What could they possably know?
---1st_cliff on 6/5/05




Cliff when and if you learn to connect and divide Scripture you might also say God the Son.

It was not me that said Jesus could have died by poison.

Everytime you made an off the wall remark I corrected it with Scripture.

Now you want to start a long winded debate over Hell that we have all ready had.

So what is your point and what are you trying to prove.

Misuse of a compass will not send me to Hell misuse of the Scripture just might.
---Elder on 6/5/05


Elder; I've never believed that tit-for-tat was good argumentation, but you make statements that have no basis in scripture! IE "God the Son" or "God the Holy Spirit" You only arrive at this by "deduction" not scripture! Or what book,chapter,verse says "immortal soul"?
---1st_cliff on 6/5/05


Elder; I realize my "findings" are not the general consensus.Does that make them wrong? Unscriptural?Just 1 "for instance"...Hell(sheol) is in the OT 65 times.31times hell,31times "grave" 3 times pit.No concept of a firey hell was known for 4ooo yrs. This is not "popular" but it IS scriptural! If the compass is "off" have it "swung" I don't like "batting" my friends! agape
---1st_cliff on 6/5/05


Cliff, I know that we could talk more intelligently.

Things you post are so confusing and appear to be so Unscriptual, especially to Newer Christians.

So, we have to "bat" at each other and show a lack of love and concern when that is not so.

If you ask me where I am going tomorrow and I reply with; V5E GARVY X, V243 BWG 150/10 when all I had to say was Bowling Green. How many would be confused?

Think I'd be interested if I were 5 degrees off in my flight plan?
---Elder on 6/4/05


Elder; You must also know that not all my answers are posted.If I contact you privately no one else willl benefit from the discussion!
---1st_cliff on 6/4/05


Cliff you know better than your last statement.

I take up for you and others in correct views. When anyone misuses Scripture I reveal that. I do because I think they might want to know and for the benefit of others.

You come back with the attitude that you have arrived and don't want to know. You explain away proper thoughts and are doing that now.

Like I said, if you want my answers you know where to get them. You may have some valid ideas but you are too busy taking up for yourself.
---Elder on 6/3/05


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Elder; I'm always "serious" about issues.when I answer with scriptue you ignore my answer and come back with a quip or cliche,The only time I go outside the bible is for some obvious common sense answer! You constantly "chide" me for using my "mind" but you see I have "faith" not "credulity!"
---1st_cliff on 6/3/05


Cliff Let me know when you are going to answer my simple question that I asked you.

Remember I asked, when you speak about Jesus saying to watch about being deceived do you think we should answer issues with Scripture or man made thoughts?
---Elder on 6/2/05


Nope Cliff I ain't gonna tell ya nothing about it. You see you have your mind made up.
Now if someone with a sincere desire asked that would be different.

If I have misunderstood you and you are serious then write me at elder2291.

I have seen your misguided beliefs.

I can tell you who the rider is on the white horse in Rev 6. I can also tell you there is only ONE revelation in the Book of Revelation.

Do you know what that one revelation is?
---Elder on 6/2/05


Elder ; Le's put the icing on the cake...you're gonna tell me that the "New Jerusalem" comming down from heaven is a literal city,just like the horses! right?
---1st_cliff on 6/2/05


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Cliff when you speak about Jesus saying to watch about being deceived do you think we should answer issues with Scripture or man made thoughts?

I have answered your misconceptions with Scripture.

I think inside the box, the box is Scripture. I try not to let Hamburger Joints determine my Spiritual walk. It may work for you. Your thinking outside the box caused you to make some real errors. Do you think that is OK?

(Keep on trying you are bound to convince someone.)
---Elder on 6/1/05


Yep I got me a "hand me down" Gospel, handed down by John, Paul, and others.

I am subjective to the teaching of the Bible. We are miles apart. I told you before, the Scripture is of no private interpretation.

The horses are as real as the Kings of the East. You have the same attitude as those who heard Noah say it was going to rain.

"Get real Noah it ain't ever rained before. Why do you think it is going to rain now? That can't be so. Think with your mind man."
---Elder on 6/1/05


I know you feel that your faith is based on 1st century Christianity,but the"church" has evolved dramaticaly in 2000 yrs! Just before Jesus left,(from insight) He warned us Watch out that no man misslead you" Would you not know if you were being "missled?" He added "to deceive even the ELECT" Surely the Elect would kmow if they're being missled!" Apearently not or He wouldn't have said so!
---1st_cliff on 6/1/05


Why do you pre-conclude how I will answer? I know it bugs you that I dont say who I am or where I live,I'm not hiding!(I'm not your enemy)A fast food outlet says "think outside the box" This is my quest. I had a friend who said "my grandfather died a baptist, my father died a baptist and I'll die a baptist!" Somehow I didn't think you fit that mold!
---1st_cliff on 6/1/05


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Elder;We both read/study the same book,have the same "Savior",but on issues seem to be miles apart. As you are taught,you expound! You seem to be more "subjective" than "objective" IE (Jesus) God comes down out of the sky riding a white horse!(seriously,do you realy think this is "literal")Would you tell that to a new Christian? This type of reasoning applies to much of your "gospel" Must all your answers come from hand-me-down staid preaching?
---1st_cliff on 6/1/05


Cliff, why explain Gods immortality to you? Anything explained to you will be turned around and discounted by your mind.

You contribute discord and not Scripture teaching. You speak of "Towering Qs" to show your knowledge but sidestep revealed Scripture Truth.

No one is "against you" but the majority of your views need tuning up.

You try to make a big issue of someone not answering your question but yet you refuse to answer so many yourself.
Cond #2-->
---Elder on 6/1/05


Cond #2-->
You claim to be a "truth seeker" but you make excuses as to why the truth can't be right. I told you I would converse with you on CN mail but you are afraid to "reveal" yourself. I have nothing to hide and I don't fear someone crawling through the telephone line. Maybe I should talk to Bruce9677.

What ever your purpose it appears to be self-serving and not fact finding or truth searching.
---Elder on 6/1/05


1st_cliff on 5/30/05-You ask where's suffering paying for sins?1Pe 3:18"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins,the just for the unjust,that He might bring us to God,being put to death in the flesh,but quickened by the Spirit:"
---Sheila on 5/31/05


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1st_cliff on 5/30/05-1Pe 3:18Doesn't say suffering w/out death,but by suffering that He may bring us to God which can only be done by paying our sin.Jesus did pay with death(giving His life)Rm5:10 "For if,when we were enemies,we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son much more,being reconciled,we shall be saved by His life." I think I was wrong thinking when Jesus said "It is finished" He meant our sin payment was finished.I think He must've meant something else was finished.
---Sheila on 5/31/05


1st_cliff on 5/30/05-You said"If Jesus was God He could not have died!"Only thing listed impossible for God is to lie.Dictionary is based on man's reason of things&God's ways are higher.Dictionary isn't scripture,so don't count on it being totally accurate.Mat 12:40 "For as Jonas was 3days &3nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be 3days &3nights in the heart of the earth." was the comparison for Jesus death not "the dead know nothing."
---Sheila on 5/31/05


1st_cliff on 5/30/05-So perhaps Jesus had a consciousness through His Spirit,but death imprisoned Him as Jonas was in the whale. Also,He quickened Himself by His same Spirit by which He preached through Noah during the days before the flood1Pe.3:18-20.It was a com.from Father that Jesus have power to lay His life down & take it again (Jn.10:17-18).And that's what Jesus did.God wouldn't command an impossibility.
---Sheila on 5/31/05


1st_cliff on 5/30/05-Jesus Spirit,as in days of Noah preaching through Noah,didn't perish cuz it quickened Himself as man back to life.Heas man had to come back to life or He'd have had no victory over death,&then we'd have no victory in Him to have everlasting life.Define immortality in God's terms?Nothing definite is coming to mind,but I'll bet I'll know the answer clearly sometime.1Pe.3 shows insight into something that is more complicated for me to understand regarding the immortality of Jesus/God.
---Sheila on 5/31/05


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1st_cliff on 5/30/05-I regret I can't converse on this subject with you any longer until about Oct.,but this blog will likely be gone by then. I regret I won't learn more by conversing with you by getting insight and thinking about your questions.I pray God opens your heart to the Truth of His Word. I pray He opens the hearts of myself and Elder and everyone conversing/watching this subject to the Truth of His Word.We need Him.Let us rejoice and be glad in it!
---Sheila on 5/31/05


The Greek word "Logikos" is the word that means Logical, Reasonable or Verbal and it is translated as "words."

The word "Logos" means Word or Speech.
---Elder on 5/31/05


Elder;Jesus is the "Logos"(same root word as "logic")Christ is Logical,Being Father and Son at the same time,dead and alive at the same time,on earth and in heaven at the same time etc..defies "logic"! I asked you before to define God's"immortality" and you could not answer.(or wouldn't) Define my faith?..truth seeker!(non-denominational!) I dont have much time at the momment....I still put in an 8hr day!
---1st_cliff on 5/31/05


Cliff you say Common sense is not all that common, is it nonexistent? Humanistic thoughts are not Scriptual nor common sence.

Explain to me how anyone could be the Christ and not fulfill ALL of the Prophecies.

I can just vision God snapping His fingers and saying, "Ahh.....Dude I shoulda said poison."
Cond #2-->
---Elder on 5/30/05


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Cond #2-->
Your statements to Sheila prove you know nothing of the Hypostatic Union.

You said the Messiah could have been poisoned. Now you say Jesus couldn't die.

Scripture, yea remember Scripture, said how the Messiah would die.

You are backpedaling on your own statements.
Get to the context of the whole matter.
One time you say one thing and then something else later.

Why are you still hiding out? Reveal your "faith."
---Elder on 5/30/05


Elder;Jesus would still have been the "Christ" no matter how He died! The prophecies He fullfilled was so all could recognize Him.You're comparing apples with oranges here! Of course He fullfilled ALL the prophecies,it(scripture) "could" have said pioson,and His death would still have paid the price!
---1st_cliff on 5/30/05


Elder; You know the problem with "common sense" is that it's not all that common!Before you were concieved you were "nowhere". you were one sperm in a million,connecting with one egg of 50,000+.the other spem & eggs perrished.(each one unique.) Your chances of being you are astronomical!It was at that momment that Elder became Elder!
---1st_cliff on 5/30/05


Sheila; What scripture says Jesus' "suffering"(and not His death) paid for our sins? 1tim. (who alone is immoral) Dict...immortal-not subject to death! If Jesus was God He could not have died! Could He raise Himself??Eccl.9.5"the dead know nothing".
---1st_cliff on 5/30/05


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Tradition says Peter died by being crucified upside down. Could he have been the Messiah? No of course not because he didn't fulfill all of the other Prophecies.

Down through history God told through signs and Prophecies who the Messiah would be.

They were written in the OT hundreds of years before Jesus was born. There are over 300 Prophecies and Jesus fulfilled them all.

If He had fulfilled 299 and died by poison and not crucifixion He WOULD NOT have been the Messiah.
Cond #2-->
---Elder on 5/30/05


Cond #2-->
It is the Life, Death, Burial and Resurrection of Jesus that provides our Salvation. We are Saved through His shed Blood.

God planned the ONLY method and payment that would reconcile lost sinners to the Holy God Himself. Abraham saw it, believed it and told it in Gen 22:1-19.

It was also predetermined before the world was created how the Redeemer would come and die for lost sinners. God was not caught by surprise.
Cond #3--->
---Elder on 5/30/05


Cond #3--->
Never get trapped into using an intellectual method of interpreting Scripture because the Bible says that Scripture is of NO private interpretation, II Pet 1:20.

Read II Tim 3:16-17 and I Cor 2:10-15 and finally II Tim 2:15-16.

Study to be Steady

If you don't rightly divide the Word you will wrongly believe.

You can know what is wrong if you know what is right.

The Truth of God will lead you and set you free. Not the thoughts of man.
---Elder on 5/30/05


Cliff I'll tell you where I was before I was born according to Scripture and you tell me if I am going back there when I die.

(By the way I am going in the Rapture.)

I was in the same place that Jeremiah was. In my fathers loins and Jesus knew me as He knew him.

You said, "Crucifiction proves from prophecy "who" He was"
Cond #2-->
---Elder on 5/29/05


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Cond #2-->
Nope wrong again Prophecy told how He would die just as it told how He would be born. You are the one who made the statement that He could have been poisoned.

Now you come up with I go back where I came from.

You have not established one point with Scripture.
Cond #3--->
---Elder on 5/29/05


Cond #3--->
If you try to figure where an Apple tree comes from you have to look in the apple then you see the seeds but where do the seeds come from because if you look in them you see nothing.

You are now speaking of a Mormon doctrine.

By the way I never said that His death didn't pay for sin that is something you said. Did you or did you not say that Jesus could have died some other way?
---Elder on 5/29/05


1st_cliff on 5/29/05-You continue to discount what scripture plainly tells us.(Is it cuz you want to?)Jesus human life was raised again&so He defeated death just as scripture tells us.Jesus suffering paid for our sins just as scripture tells us.Which scripture verses are you looking at to get your info,besides about Father raising Jesus which I already explained using scripture?
---Sheila on 5/29/05


Elder; you completely miss the point (because you want to) It was Jesus' death that paid the price not the method. Crucifiction proves from prophecy "who" He was So long as you hold the view that the dead dont realy die(death-cesstation of life)you will never comprehend the mechanics of "life vs death" truth hinges on this! Where were you before you were concieved? Thats where you go at death,awaiting resurrection!
---1st_cliff on 5/29/05


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1st_cliff on 5/28/05-You pick and choose what you want to believe in scripture.Instead of explaining 1Pe 3:18,you completely discount it.I'll explain Ac.2:24.Yes,the Father raised Jesus from death,Jesus does nothing without Him.It doesn't show Jesus didn't take His life back Himself.
---Sheila on 5/29/05


1st_cliff on 5/28/05-Bible talks about Father being Creator of all without mention of Jesus.Doesn't mean Jesus didn't create everything.He did.(Jn.1:3).So Father raising Jesus without mention of Jesus doing it,DOESN'T mean Jesus didn't raise Himself from dead.It was a com.from Father that Jesus have power to lay His life down & take it again (Jn.10:17-18).Why'd the Father give that commandment if it wasn't His plan for Jesus to take His life back with His Father as they've always worked together?
---Sheila on 5/29/05


1st_cliff on 5/28/05-Jesus said it was finished before He died.It was His suffering, blood,&justness that paid our sins.His human life was resurrected,or He wouldn't have defeated death.He defeated death so we may also live.As for what happens to human bodies after ascending to heaven,or after an angel is no longer taking on human form -- the idea of bodies disposed of is speculation.A more accurate speculation based on scripture occurances is bodies are transformed, NOT disposed of.
---Sheila on 5/29/05


1st_cliff on 5/28/05-Rm.6:6 our sin was crucified with Jesus&was no more with Him once He died(Rm6:7),death no longer had dominion over Jesus(Rm6:9).2Co 5:21 For He hath made Him to be sin for us, Who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.
---Sheila on 5/29/05


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1st_cliff on 5/24/05-Why do you choose to be son of the bondwoman rather than the free woman?(Ga.4).Be reconciled to God (2Co.5:20,2Co.5:18,Rm.5:10).
---Sheila on 5/29/05


Your comments about Jesus dying just anyway (your words, "He could have been hung,stabbed,poisoned whatever") makes me understand that you know nothing of the Old Testament prophecy.
Cond #2-->
---Elder on 5/28/05


Cond #2-->
The true Messiah had to die by Crucifixion with pierced hands and feet.

Your other excuses and explanations are just as lame.

The word power you are looking for in John 10 is Exuusia and means authority or privilege. Jesus had the Authority to take His life back.
Cond #3--->
---Elder on 5/28/05


Cond #3--->
Heb 1 does call Jesus God and so does John 1 and many other places throughout the Bible.

You are hashing the same old things you have before and are still as far off base as ever. I am sorry your god is so small. I still try to understand your purpose and have asked you to write me but you want to hide out and "not reveal" yourself as you said in an earlier post.

How did your god die was he poisoned as you say?
---Elder on 5/28/05


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S&E;#2..I've never heard of swoon & spirit body!You asked "what difference in dieing a human and raised a spirit?"..much..Jesus was "perfect" who else? The ransom was a trade-off Jesus for Adam! Heb 1 does not say He was God!vs3 exact "representation" it's all about Father& Son! Jn.10 "power" ex-oo-see ah,also,priviledge&freedom to etc. 1cor.flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom(like Moses His body was disposed of)
---1st_cliff on 5/28/05


Elder&Sheila !st Act 2.24 God resurrected Jesus freeing Him from death! phil.2.9 God(Father) Exalted Jesus (higher) and GAVE Him a name above every other name! Sheila you mentioned in your answer (below) that Jesus' suffering "paid for our sins" when the "suffering" was clearly the result of the type of execution and didnt figure into the "price" He could have been hung,stabbed,poisoned whatever ...it was his "Life" that paid the price!...(2)
---1st_cliff on 5/28/05


Cliff you said, "It's only complicated if you dont understand "ransom"Mat.20.28."

I understand there are at least 6 different meanings to the word "Ransom." Some words translated "Ransom" mean, a price, a covering or freedom.
Cond #2-->
---Elder on 5/28/05


Cond #2-->
All of these are found in Christ Jesus and are present due to His Resurrection.

"They" killed His body, He resurrected His body by His own power. If the human Jesus was killed and resurrected a spirit what would be different from anyone else? Now is the time to use the word "nothing."

The "Swoon" and "Spirit Body" theory is just plain wrong and different from what Scripture teaches.
---Elder on 5/28/05


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Cliff after 108 post you finally come up with a clear answer, a little off but somewhat clear.

You see Jesus is God, Heb 1:1-8. God spoke in v1 and in v8 God called the Son God.

Jesus had the power to lay His life down and to take it back, John 10:17-18.

Thomas and the others saw a human. Thomas even touched Him.

John 20:1-18 when Mary first saw the resurrected Jesus she thought she was speaking to the Gardner

Now will these statements convince Cliff? Probably not.
---Elder on 5/28/05


1st_cliff on 5/24/05-Thanx for direct answers&clarifying #3 "nothing life" to "His human life." Your answer differs from mine&"nothing" differs from Bible's answer.He gave His body for us to eat in rememberance of Him.He "paid" His bloodMt26:28,His suffering1Pe 3:18&His justness for sin.Jesus took His human body back&so His life(Jn.20).His body wasn't in tomb,&wasn't left when He rose to heaven.Doesn't mean He's always human body.Your answers don't fit scripture.
---Sheila on 5/27/05


1st_cliff on 5/24/05-#2 How do you know with certainty that it was only God the Father who gave Jesus back His earthly life?It was a commandment from the Father that Jesus have the power to lay His life down and take it again ( Jn.10:17-18).It doesn't matter that Jesus took his own life back,our debt was still paid-SUFFERING.
---Sheila on 5/27/05


1st_cliff on 5/24/05-You choose to be son of bondwoman rather than free woman?(Ga.4).Why?"I'm not fit to lick the dust from His feet" so I'd think of myself.But God loves me though I don't know why.Whatever reason it's right,cuz who's anyone to argue His children aren't worthy of Him?Recall prodical son who knew he wasn't worthy of his father's love.God gives you all His time during your lifespan.He wants to hear from us always(1Th5:16-18)Our prayers are as sweet incense to Him(Ps.141:2,Rv.8:4).
---Sheila on 5/27/05


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OK Elder;I'lltry once more. The "if" was "if"He took back His life,just after giving it,the payment would still be outstanding.But "clearly" God resurrected Him and accepted the sacrifice as full payment.Jesus the human died! Jesus the son of God lives forever!Takes His rightfull place with His Father,where He was before"emptying" Himself to become "human" It's only complicated if you dont understand "ransom"Mat.20.28
---1st_cliff on 5/27/05


Cliff, Sheila on 5/23/05, asked, from your own statement, "3.If Jesus gave His life for us, but took it back ..what, exactly , was "paid"?"

Your answer was, "#3-nothing", 1st_cliff on 5/24/05.

I'm not out to "get" you. I commented on what you said. You said Jesus paid nothing.
Read it for yourself.

If I am wrong tell me and explain it. Clarify what you meant.
Cond #2-->
---Elder on 5/27/05


Cond #2-->
Stop playing word games to show how intelligent you are we already know that.

It is very simple.

In your original question you use the word "If" which cast doubt as to something really occurring. Then when asked what Jesus gave you said "Nothing." So, what are people supposed to think you are saying?


















---Elder on 5/27/05


Elder; At the risk of offending a minority (with appology in advance) we had a saying,back in the old days "Indian giver" which meant to give something then take it back" I didnt say nothing was paid ,only if he took it back! He gave his human life FOREVER.my debt is paid (yours too) Do you immagine Him ever being a human again? It was Jesus for Adam!(ransom)
---1st_cliff on 5/26/05


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No Cliff you don't need to raise you belt but you do need to stop trying to pay the "Ref" off.

You say I delivered a low blow but you didn't say that until I quoted your exact statement.

I repeated what you said and you call that low so you must be right again.
Cond #2-->
---Elder on 5/26/05


Cond #2-->
I see myself as a Son through the Blood of Christ and I have the relationship of a Son with the Father.

I don't look for "legal loopholes" as I have an Advocate with the Father which is Jesus Christ the Righteous. Better than having a Lawyer that knows the law is to have a Lawyer that knows the Judge.
Cond #3--->
---Elder on 5/26/05


Cond #3--->
After all of the "smoke and mirrors" you have delivered on this blog and now you want people to feel sorry because you have been asked to be plain in your replies. No one does this quite like you do Cliff.

Maybe if you explained your purpose people would understand. Are you afraid to come out and state your beliefs.

You are not fighting the enemy you are punching those who are in your own corner. You don't get points for those blows.
---Elder on 5/26/05


cont..According to isa.40.22. we are like "grasshoppers" ,you could step on one and never even notice! "what is man that thou art mindfull of him?"heb2.6
---1st_cliff on 5/25/05


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Elder; I guess I'll have to raise my belt up under my armpits,some of your punches are a little low! Cant fool the ref.tho! Our concept of God differs quite dramaticaly.You see Him as an arm around the shoulder-first name basis.I see Him as the creator of this Universe,of whom I'm not fit to lick the dust from His feet.If He gave me 5 seconds of His time in my lifespan I would be thrilled beyond measure...cont
---1st_cliff on 5/25/05


Why is it that you said He paid nothing?
Let's get that explained.
---Elder on 5/25/05


For me He paid the debt (He did not take it back) my debt is paid in full. How is it you cant comprehend that Jesus gave up His earthy human life forever to cover our sins. He will never be a human again. God gave Him back His pre-human form and is once again Devine!
---1st_cliff on 5/25/05


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