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Was Lucifer Allowed To Be Satan

Why did Lucifer have a choice to choose from? To rebel or not? If God wanted He could have left him in holiness forever. Why was the choice even there?

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 ---Lupe2618 on 5/15/05
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For the same reason Adam and Eve had a choice. Jehovah wants us to love and obey willingly.
---Ladywolf on 4/3/11


Why did Lucifer have a choice?

A good question, to which I can only say:

GOD KNEW that was best

We have no way of understanding, just guessing
---Peter on 1/28/11


Tony P,
As a Christian, I find many(not all) of your arguments to be sound doctrine that has no "Jewish only" or "Christian only" meaning.
There simply is, nor ever was, any scriptural text IN THE HEBRAIC LANGUAGE that could be translated to say that there was an angel or a man named Lucifer.
As you correctly said,"The name Lucifer is a post biblical latin translation of morning star or light-giver".
I contend that morning star and light-giver are mockings(taunts) against King Nebuchadnezzar's HIGH MINDED, prideful boastings about his BRIGHTNESS.
You call a dummy "Smart-alec" in order to mock him.
Tree growing higher than stars" boast is MOCKED by the term MORNING STAR.
---Legends on 1/27/11


There was no choice, God is omnipotent and omnicient, he controls everything and therefore is, or controls Lucifer. As to whether Hell is simply the guilt laid upon us after doing wrong or an eternal fire I need to think, but if Lucifer exists he is simply a utility of God as we all are.
---Davis on 10/11/07


Tony P talking to you about this is pointless, because you need Jesus before anything else. Jesus died for you and he was the promised Messiah spoken of in Isaiah. His shed blood is the only atonement for your sins. Without acceptance of that you have sins unforgiven. The old covenant is done away with. Jesus is the promised Messiah. Believe on Him and your sins will be forgiven. Follow Him, and you'll reside in heaven forever.
---Matthew_from_LA on 10/4/07




Matthew,

Come now, did you truly believe that dialogue between believers in G-d is that easy? Surely you know that while your interpretation is valid from a Christian perspective, mine is certainly valid from the Jewish one. As far as revelation, I like to look at it as referring to the Roman Empire. It is apocalyptic. Not prophecy. We will see in the end. I admit that I don't know who is telling the truth. The Jews, or Jesus
---Tony_P. on 10/3/07


"And, no, I do not believe Revelation."

Well Tony P. that says it all. There is no point in talking to you about this anymore.
---Matthew_from_LA on 10/3/07


Matthew,
I am not here to fight, simply to offer a different interpretation of Isaiah 14. Do you not know or believe that it is first talking about Nebuchadnezzar. And how come you don't address any of the other points I brought up in the related post. I will believe that Satan rebels when he disobeys G-d. Other than that, to me these verses are very literally talking to the King of Babylon. And, no, I do not believe Revelation. "Lucifer" is not a Hebrew name. Cont..
---Tony_P. on 10/3/07


cont.. I see you are perhaps blinded by what you have been taught as a child or learned for the first time as an adult. I believed once as you did. But you see, for me to believe as you do I would have to consign the Jewish half of my family to the burning lake of fire in 2nd Thessalonians. I have to be sure of things. I will not be scared into accepting Jesus. Satan has only the power I give him to do anything for we have free will. Again, show me Isaiah 14 is not talking about Nebuchadnezzar.
---Tony_P. on 10/3/07


Tony P. Satan rebelling is in the OT.

Isaih 14
12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the most High.

---Matthew_from_LA on 10/3/07




Tony P, I remembered now you posted that you don't believe Lucifer is Satan. So you aren't even going to believe what I put. I will say this then. You said God is just. How is God just if he going to punish Satan for doing what God forced Him and wanted Him to do. That is not just Tony. It's following an unfair and unjust God. Your God is a monster.
---Matthew_from_LA on 10/3/07


"G-d is just, however you know that it is G-d who allowed Satan to torment Job."

Yes, God allowed Satan to do what Satan wanted to do. God did not make Him do it. Satan wanted to do it, because Satan loves to destroy.
---Matthew_from_LA on 10/3/07


"Since he is an angel with no free will he had no choice but to obey."

Provide the scripture where God commanded Satan to torment Job, instead of allowing Him to. Last thing I will say, it's your choice to believe what you want. If you are going to continue believing this nonsense I am no longer going to discuss this with you and move on since you choose to believe a lie(I can't make you change your mind).
---Matthew_from_LA on 10/3/07


"The Hebrew bible has nothing in it about Satan rebelling or being punished by G-d."

But the NT(the book of Christianity) does in Revelation. If you acknowlegde Lucifer is Satan, so does the OT. Do you reject Revelation?
---Matthew_ffrom_La on 10/3/07


G-d is just, however you know that it is G-d who allowed Satan to torment Job. Also, my response was not from a Christian POV. The Hebrew bible has nothing in it about Satan rebelling or being punished by G-d. I know the Christian POV. The problem is that you have absolutely no concrete, literal evidence for this in the bible that is accepted by most admittedly protestant denominations. And yes, G-d did give that task to HaSatan. Since he is an angel with no free will he had no choice but to obey.
---Tony_P. on 10/3/07


Tony P we know Satan will suffer in hell for eternity. You are telling me that God forced Satan to be bad and is then going to punish Him for it. I thought God was just, Tony P. My God is fair and just.
---Matthew_from_LA on 10/2/07


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cont.. Everything that Satan does is done at the L-rd's command. Without Satan, how can one show his faith and do the right thing? If Satan is the ruler of this world and we can do nothing of our own because he controls this world, how can you even do the right thing in the Christian context and choose to accept Jesus? Obviously, you have to have something that angels lack. A choice.. Free will.. Satan has no such free will. it is you who choose to do evil. Satan does not own us. Reread Job.
---Tony_P. on 10/2/07


In my opinion, Lucifer is not Satan's name. HaSatan, The Adversary or accuser, is an angel whose job it is to tempt us from the right path. That is his job or mission. He does this because G-d tells him to. Show me in scripture, anywhere where Satan ever goes against what G-d tells him to do. Isaiah 14:12 is about Nebuchadnezzar. It even says at the beginning, Take this parable to the King of Babylon. The name Lucifer is a post biblical latin translation of morning star or light-giver. cont.
---Tony_P. on 10/2/07


It is clearly about the King for in verse 16 it calls out a man. 16. Those who see you shall look at you, shall gaze earnestly at you, 'Is this the man who caused the earth to quake, who wrought havoc among the kingdoms?17. Who made the land like a desert, and his cities he demolished, for his prisoners he did not open the house.18. All kings of nations, all of them, lay in honor, each in his house. cont..
---Tony_P. on 10/2/07


Is Satan human that he should have "fathers" to be buried with? 19. But you were cast from your grave like a discarded sapling, [in] the garb of the slain, of those pierced by the sword, who descend to the stones of the pit, like a trampled corpse.20. You shall not join them in burial, for you have destroyed your land, you have slain your people, the seed of evil-doers shall not be named forever. cont..
---Tony_P. on 10/2/07


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cont..Why would Satan, an angel in G-d's court, be reprimanded for wanting to ascend into heaven? He is an angel and has already seen heaven. That is where Satan is when he is not doing his Gd given mission of being a tempter or stumbling block. He already was above the clouds. This is clearly talking about Nebuchadnezzar because of the following points..cont
---Tony_P. on 10/2/07


cont.. 1. Nebuchadnezzar is a human, Satan is not. 2. Nebuchadnezzar abused the Jewish people entirely too much while they were in captivity and was too proud of his power over them. He forgot whom it was who gave them over to him. 3. An angel isn't a man, nor is not being buried with his fathers a threat to an angel. To a human king, yes this is a threat. cont..
---Tony_P. on 10/2/07


cont.. 4. Explain verse 20. 20. You shall not join them in burial, for you have destroyed your land, you have slain your people, the seed of evil-doers shall not be named forever. Satan has land? Satan has a people that G-d is punishing him for destroying? More than likely, a human king would have these things. Not an angel..cont
---Tony_P. on 10/2/07


cont.. Does Satan have sons? 21. Prepare a slaughter for his sons because of the iniquity of their forefathers, lest they rise and inherit the land, and fill the surface of the earth with enemies."
22. "And I will rise against them," says the Lord of Hosts, "and I will cut off from Babylon a name and a remnant, a son and a grandson," says the Lord.
A human king is very concerned with his succession... Not an angel.. cont.
---Tony_P. on 10/2/07


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cont. The truth is that HaSatan has only the power that G-d gives him. True, his mission is to tempt us down the wrong path. He certainly is not the power of this world however. He certainly, never rebels against G-d in scripture. You have to read into it something hat is not there. It is the L-rd who creates evil. Isaiah 45:7 7. Who forms light and creates darkness, Who makes peace and creates evil, I am the Lord, Who makes all these. cont..
---Tony_P. on 10/2/07


greetings.Lucifer and Satan are two differennt spirits with two seperate functions.Many have said that Lucifer was once perfect.This saying is a myth.What or who is perfect will remain perfect throughout any age or any time.If God would have made him perfect this would rob him of choice and experience to achieve perfection.No one will achieve perfection until God declares it.Scripture does mention of Lucifer having a partial perfection until he lost sight of God.
---earl on 10/2/07


This is difficult for the great theologins. It is like the question "where did God come from?". It appears that out Creator made his most precious living creatures to have freedom of choice. Even with His ability to know before hand God gave Lucifer highest regard and responsibility. Lucifer was greedy and jealous. Lucifer's choice and defect. God allowed. Why? God knows.Think inside the box.lol:)
---splaa6685 on 10/2/07


"I guess we wouldn't be sealed. No gurantee their either."

I have many vegetables in a sealed can. All I need to do is get a can opener to open it. Enevelopes get sealed and then they get opened. So no, being sealed isn't a guarantee for always being saved.
---Matthew_from_LA on 10/2/07


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Lupe .......same as you and i we have a choice as to whom we will serve.For we serve Jesus or Satan ......as for me and my house we shall serve the Lord........also lucifer tried to make himself above our Heavenly Father he thought he was god and this is like many Christians when they have an Anointing on their lives they take the Glory instead of giving God the Praise.....then they fall
---Lea on 10/1/07


Lupe2816
Now you are dealing with questions which if not treated carefully could lead to doubt, so let's be very careful.
The way I see it, is that God created Lucifer, angel of light with complete freedom of choice to remain as one of the most beautiful angels or to let pride lead him to rebel. He chose the later but he did not have to become the devil .(See Ezek.28:12-17/Isa 14:12-14)
---Pierr7958 on 4/8/07


We should remember that the Gospel is not good advice, but good news. It does not tell us what we are to do to earn salvation, but proclaims to us what Christ has done to save us. On the Cross Jesus declared that He had finished the work of redemption which the Father gave Him to do. Only those views which ascribe to God all the power in salvation of sinners are consistently evangelical.
---Lupe2618 on 5/22/05


Satan is not defeating the purpose of God. He is but an instrument in the providences of God. Remember, God brought us alive when dead, God opens our eyes, when blind, gave us the faith to believe, illuminated our hearts to His ways. God is really God. I cannot change anyone's heart on this matter. I know that many get offended when someone brings something to light that they maybe haven't heard before.
---Lupe2618 on 5/22/05


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If it is by works then we can lose our salvation. Then what Jesus tells us, "because I live, you will live also, is not a gurantee anymore. and He tells us that no one can snach us out of His hands, is really not true because Satan can take one by one. What about the sealing of the Holy Spirit? I guess we wouldn't be sealed. No gurantee their either. I am not writing this in order to change anyone's mind, because I know it is God that is in control. I do it so that people can check for themselves.
---Lupe2618 on 5/22/05


How different is this from Paul's declaration that it is "not by works, that no man should glory," and "He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord," Eph.2:9; 1cor.1:31. The tendency in all these universalistic systems in which man proudly seizes the helm and proclaims himself the master of his destiny is to reduce Christianity to a religion of works.
---Lupe2618 on 5/22/05


we give man veto power over the work of Almighty God and salvation rests ultimately in the hand of man. In this system no matter how great a proportion of the work of salvation God may do, man is ultimately the deciding factor. and man who does come to salvation has some personal merit of his own; he has some grounds to boast over those who are lost. He can point the finger of scorn and say, "You had as good chance as I had. I accepted and you rejected the offer.therefore you deserve to suffer.
---Lupe2618 on 5/22/05


no one has the right to question God as to why He does things. He is the the Almighty. All through scripture from the beginning He tells us who He is and why He does things. He never once tell us that we have to do something to help Him. Jesus atonement on the Cross was a finish job. If we assert that after God has done all His work it is still left for man to "accept" or reject,
---Lupe2618 on 5/22/05


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If someone is blind to the things of God, how can he see to come to Christ? If he is dead spiritually does he come alive long enough to see God and then refuse Him? And what do we do with all the scriptures that tell us how we were saved? Grace won't be grace anymore. The bible tells us who moves the heart of the person. God tells us that He does what He pleases, that He has mercy on whom He has mercy. That by faith we are save through grace, faith been a gift from grace. God chooses everyone in scripture
---Lupe2618 on 5/22/05


If we ask ourselves, can Satan be defeating the purpose of God? Is he winning and God cannot do anything to stop him because so many are been lost? Can man really refuse the grace of God when He calls him? Can we explain why the choice was even there for Satan and Adam and Eve? How about the tree in the garden. Was God taken by surprise when Adam sinned and immidially responded to the sin and changed His purpose and Plan because of sin?
---Lupe2618 on 5/22/05


I believe that if we have free will then it would be wrong to pray. you see, when we get together with brothers and sisters to pray for someone we know it is God who will do His will. we don't believe for a moment that the person will change himself. So we pray and ask God to bring that person to the knowledge of God so they can be save. If we thought for a minute that they could do it themselves, then why pray. Even someone that is sick, we go to God. Always to God. Everything is about God.
---Lupe2618 on 5/22/05


To my brothers and sisters, let me explain the reason why I did put down the question. First of all I do it so brothers and sisters will check scripture to make sure what they say is what they read. I am doing also to find out how many really believe in their heart that the God they worship. I see so many answers and most of them contradict themselves in answering. I think if you go back and look at the answers you will see that.
---Lupe2618 on 5/22/05


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Man was created for only one purpose - to loyally serve God. If you don't prove your loyalty, you are not worthy to call yourselves children of God!
---Wendell on 5/19/05


How can you be sure if someone truly loves you. If you don't give that someone many chances to prove it, and many chances to rebel, how can you be sure? If these chances are held away from an individual, how will you know for sure? God gave everyone as many chances to rebel as they need, and only those that prove loyal to Hill will be accepted!!!
---Wendell on 5/19/05


Isaiah 12-14 Lucifer said in his heart I will be like the most High. He had pride Proverbs 16:18
---Ulrika on 5/18/05


Barbara, let me add to DoryLory's reply, btw DoryLory you have a neat name- it rhymes. 1st many choose other paths because they are raised as children to believe what their parents do. 2nd it's uncomfortable to admit wrong and been believing the wrong thing. 3rd it's uncomfortable to apologize or repent. 4th it's fearful to surrender your will to an unknown and invisible God. 5th fear of misconceptions about what happens after converting.
---Eloy on 5/18/05


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Lucifer created without the power to procreate. He was jealous. He rebelled against and became Satan. God created all things good. However, in Eden the tree of fruit of life and another of knowledge of good and evil. Adam and Eve ate the wrong fruit. The key to all evils opens doors. Satan then able to influence all good to become harmful to humans: HIV, Bird Flu, SARS, Cancer .... including insects. Therefore every creation was given the free will to action.
---pek on 5/17/05


When a person is born again he is not slave to sin for now he does have a free will just like Adam. He knows right from wrong and the Apostles continue to tell us in scripture what we should do and what we were. Always reminding us of where we were without Christ. Now God reveals to us a little here one day and something else the next through the power of the Holy Spirit.
---Lupe2618 on 5/16/05


Of course, infinitely different. For God wills with a good will, that which Satan wills with an evil will, as the case in the crucifixion of Christ, which was overruled for the redemption of the world.
---Lupe2618 on 5/16/05


Pierr, let me explan your question this way. Even the works of Satan are so controlled and limited that they serve God's purposes. while Satan eagerly desires the distruction of the wicked and diligently works to bring it about, yet the destruction proceeds from God. It is, in the first place, God who decrees that the wicked shall suffer, and Satan is merely permitted to lay the punishment upon them. The motives which underlie God's purposes and those of which underlie Satan's are, of course,
---Lupe2618 on 5/16/05


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Man's ruin lies mainly in his own perverse will. He cannot come because he will not. Paul tells us, "The carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So they that are in the flesh cannot please God," Romans 8:7.
---Lupe2618 on 5/16/05


Thank you sister. Man is a free agent but he cannot originate the love of God in his heart. His will is free in the sense that it is not controlled by any force outside of himself. How can he repent of his sin when he loves it? how can he come to God when he hates Him? Jesus said, "And this is the judgment, that light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than light ; for there works were evil," John 3:19
---Lupe2618 on 5/16/05


barbara67 - The answer to your question can be found in 2 Corinthians 4:4. "The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ ... "

They resist Jesus because they've been blinded by Satan. They can't "see" the true God that we love and serve. That's why it's so powerful, when praying for unbelievers, to pray that the minds of their understanding would be open and able to see Jesus clearly.
---DoryLory on 5/16/05


Well, Pier if you want to believe that Lucifer, the 'light bringer,' has no purpose, you might want to take a different approach to your study. The one you call Satan feeds on anger and confusion. Without anger there would be no change. And yes sir, that is my final answer. After battaling this thing called Satan, the light is brought. You have a choice in what you decide to do with the light he leaves.
---gregg4933 on 5/16/05


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Somethings always remain a mystery. But with God's loving kindness available why do so many people chose other ways of life? Christianity, in it's theory and practice is beautiful. So way do so many people reject God?
---barbara67 on 5/16/05


Lupe ... I leap to Elder's defence.

His reference to "robots" is to what we would have been if God had not given us free-will, and we would therefore have been programmed to do exactly what God wanted.

He does not say that when we have accepted Him, we are then robots because we seek to do His will
---Alan_of_U.K. on 5/16/05


It would have been perfectly just for God to have left all men in their sin and misery and to have shown mercy to none. God was under no obligation whatsoever to provide salvation for anyone. The robots part you mention is incorrect because when God truely comes into your life, you will love Him and worship Him because of the love you have for Him. You will not be forced to do His will, you will be doing it out of your own free will. And you will be giving praise for bringing you to the light.
---Lupe2618 on 5/16/05


Brother Elder let me say, because of Adam's transgression, his descendants enter the world as guilty, lost sinners. As fallen creatures, they have no desire to have fellowship with the Creator. He is holy just, and good, whereas they are sinful, perverse, and corrupt. Left, to their own they inevitably follow the god of this world and do the will of their father, the devil. Consequently, men have cut themselves off from the Lord of Heaven and have forfeited all rights to His love and favor.
---Lupe2618 on 5/16/05


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Somethings in life are mysteries.
---Barbara67 on 5/16/05


Satan is a created being unable to procreate. He is not the Prodigal son of God. Predestination has nothing to do with his choice to rebel.

Predestination and foreknowledge is different. Don't get mixed up in dealing with Biblical things. God foreknew what would happen but didn't predetermine it to.

If we didn't have freewill and choice then we would be "robots" and present superficial worship.

God desires worship because we want to worship Him not because we have to.
---Elder on 5/16/05


Isaiah 14:12 Lucifers' choice.12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the Most High.
---rev on 5/16/05


He had freewill to serve the Lord just as we do. But he wanted to take over God's throne and have all creatures serve him instead. "Then said Jesus to him, Go Satan, for it is written, You will worship your Lord God, and him only will you serve." Mathhew 4:10. But the devil left him, and he still refuses to worship Jesus his Lord God.
---Eloy on 5/16/05


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God has given Lucifer the "free will". The same "free will" that God has given to us all.
---linda6546 on 5/15/05


Lupe:
Lucifer was given the same choice as we all are given. We have the right to sin or to obey God. But, like Lucifer, we will suffer the consequences of our decisions. It is true love that God desires from us, and true love can never be forced, it must be given by our own free will.
---Jerry on 5/15/05


Gregg4933 like Pierr I would like for you in your best words explain why he is a needed enemy? I am sure the thought came out for a reason and I would love to hear it. thank you brother
---Lupe2618 on 5/15/05


I was wondering why Satan was allowed to do so much damage before His being cast to hell at the very very last day. I hold the view that Satan like us has been created with a free will to choose. But I was surprised to read a book suggesting that Satan was the prodigal Son of God. The author uses the parable on the Prodigal Son for the writing. How I wish someone who believes in Predestination to give his view about Satan. Does the prediction in the Bible provide an opportunity for Satan to repent.
---pek on 5/15/05


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To serve God is always a choice. Without the ability to choose, we would be something akin to a robot. God is into relationships, not "making" any created being obey or love him.
---DoryLory on 5/15/05


gregg4933
I just about fainted when I read your post calling the devil 'not so bad' and a 'needed enemy'
Is that your final answer? I hope not!
---Pierr7958 on 5/15/05


A very good question. Lucifer, the 'light bearer,'was cast to earth with a third of the angels because, we are told in one account, he tried to rise above God. Another account said he was the chief of the 'Sons of God' in Gen. 6 and drew them to the earth by lust. There is other accounts but Lucifer, satan, is not as we picture; not an all out enemy, but an enemy like a hurricane, a needed enemy.
---gregg4933 on 5/15/05


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