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Why Is America Still In Iraq

Could somebody PLEASE tell me why America is still in Iraq? My son is leaving in seven days. Please pray for him and all the soldiers.

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 ---sue on 5/30/05
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If the final decision for the salvation of fallen sinners were left in the hands of fallen sinners, we would despair of all hope that anyone would be saved. you and I and all Christians should be so thankful that we are chosen and brought to the light. We have nothing to show for ourselves because of the person we once were. But our love for Christ is the testimony of our hearts. The question is, "what is wrong of God creating faith in the heart of the sinner?"
---Lupe2618 on 10/14/07


As long as Islamic fundamentalism is prevalent in any country in the Mideast it is imperative the US continue to have a strong military/geopolitical presence in Iraq. If we should ever pull out; that element will fill the power vacuumed and destabilize every country in the Mideast. As long as we are depend on Mideast oil and OPEC are creditors to our growing national debt we will have to be in Iraq for our economic as well as physical security. Islamic fundamentalism can never be allowed to control OPEC.
---notlaw99 on 12/25/06


Dear Bloggers: This mother was upset over the fact that her son was leaving for Irag to probably be engaged in battle and all several of you could do was argue theology. She was trying to find some meaning in why America was still in the war and humbly ask for prayer not a litany of theological debate. In the future could you please think first of the need of the people asking their heartfelt questions? Thanks and God bless!
---Elsie on 7/16/05


Not every war is significant enough to be prophesied. Too many of them for that. We have to be careful not to put a prophetic spin on a thing which is very much of this world. I'm a loyal Bush voter, but I still think this war was foolish. God will make something good come of it, as He does all things, but what that may be we can only wait and see.
---Billy on 7/15/05


I thought you knew Randy. The President sent them there. I thought we all knew that. No biblical interpration on that one. Take it up with Him, I know I didn't sent them and I don't think you did, or anyone else here so it wasn't us.
---lupe2618 on 7/15/05




Still no one has explained we are in Iraq.
---randy on 7/15/05


Alan, I have lost my train of thought and I put enough down. I have written and written and for nothing. For it meant nothing to you what Scriptures I put down or not. I even explain to you what the verse says, I answered you and ask you to give me something and you give me nothing but your feelings. You just want to feel the way you do because you are use to it and no matter what anyone says you will not listen, May God help us all.
---Lupe2618 on 7/9/05


Of course not all the world believes Lupe. But where on earth do you get the idea that it is God who decides whether we will be believe? You have produced no convincing scripture.
Jesus said ... Come unto me, ALL ...
So all are invited and all have the opportunity of coming.
---Alan8869_of_UK on 7/9/05


Thank you for your answers Alan, it was a pleasure to answer the best way possible. Sorry Sue, and thank you for posting your question. I hope we helped in some way. Again my prayers for you and family. I have not forgotten to pray for your son and others in harms way, plus the people in London. blessings,
---Lupe2618 on 7/9/05


Alan, you keep saying I say it. I write what God put down on His word. I don't invent this things. Your Bible must be somewhat the same, unless I am reading something you don't have. My Bible says, that Jesus died for those that believe. I know yours does too. My mind knows that not the whole world is saved. They hate God. They hate the light. They have no ear to hear, or eye to see the things of God. I didn't make that up either.
---Lupe2618 on 7/9/05




But Lupe, your earlier statements do make it a lie, because you have said that only God can make someone choose to be saved, only God will allow someone to have faith.
So, in spite of John 3.16, Jesus did not die for all, but only for those God choses.
This is not the best blog for this discusssion ... there is a new one, and your comments there would be welcome
---Alan8869_of_UK on 7/9/05


Alan, John 3:16, is probably the most wonderful passage in all the Bible. It does show the love that God had for us. No one can give up their own son for others in the way He did. That is true Love.
---Lupe2618 on 7/9/05


Now comes verse 21, this verse is to the faithful, true believers that live by faith, "But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God." The only way it was done was through God. God gets the glory.
---Lupe2618 on 7/8/05


He loves the world but saves the ones that believe. Now if you go to verses 19-21, "This is the verdict: Light has come into the world. but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil." That is why Alan, I mentioned to you the condition of fallen man. and on verse 20, "Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed." You see they cannot come to the Light. They hate the light.
---Lupe2618 on 7/8/05


Alan, John 3:16 is not a lie. God loves the world but the world does not love God. He mentions that later in verse 19-20. He did give up His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. He came to save the ones that will believe. He did not come to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. But of course we know that He did not mean to save the whole world because the whole world is not saved. No, there is nothing wrong with that statement.
---Lupe2618 on 7/8/05


Thank you Lupe for your concern and prayers for the people of this country after the bomb attacks in London.
I do not think tthey will in any way deflect us from our responsibility to the majority of people in Iraq. I am fearful though that our continued presence there will be misconstrued as being anti-Islam.
I still reckon that US and UK make a complete mess of the post-war situation ... they had not planned how to restore the country, and that is part of the problem..
---Alan8869_of_UK on 7/8/05


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Lupe "John 3:16-18, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved"
Your perception of God makes that into a lie.
---Alan8869_of_UK on 7/8/05


He lost the moral ability to choose Christ. I have put down what free will is to the fallen man and how he chooses. Thank you for reading what I wrote. I am thankful that God gave me a chance to write this. I also want to say that I am so sorry for the people in London. For all the families. I do also believe that this problem will be with us for a long time. Who knows how this will all end but God Himself. My prayers for everyone there.
---Lupe2618 on 7/8/05


he must first have a desire to please God. Before we can find God, we must first desire to seek Him. Before we can choose the good, we must first desire for the good. Before we can choose Christ, we must first have a desire for Christ. The question is this, Does fallen man, in and of himself, have a natural desire for Christ? But fallen man has lost his original desire for God. When he lost that desire, something happened to his freedom.
---lupe2618 on 7/8/05


We have a mind and we have a will. We have the natural ability to choose what we desire. What, then, is our problem? According to the Bible the location of our problem is clear. It is with the nature of our desires. This is the focal point of our fallenness. Scripture declares that the heart of fallen man continually harbors desires that are only wicked. Gen. 6:5. The Bible has much to say about the heart of fallen man. You see Alan, before a person can make a choice which is pleasing to God,
---Lupe2618 on 7/8/05


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"The good that I would, I do not, and that which I would not, that I do." Here it sounds as if, under the inspiration of God the Holy Spirit, Paul is teaching clearly that there are times in which he acts against his strongest inclination. He is stating plainly what every one of us has experienced. We all have a desire to flee from sin because we are Christians now. The will is a natural ability given to us by God. we have all the natural faculties necessary to make choices.
---Lupe2618 on 7/8/05


Now what about sin? Every Christian has some desire in his heart to obey Christ. We love Christ and we want to please Him. Yet every Christian sins. The hard truth is that at the moment of our sin we desire the sin more strongly than we desire to obey Christ. If we always desired to obey Christ more than we desired to sin, we would never sin. Does not the Apostle Paul teach otherwise? Does he not recount for us a situation in which he acts against his desires? He say in Romans 7:19,
---Lupe2618 on 7/8/05


Before we ever can make moral choices we must first have some idea of what it is we are choosing. Our selection is then based upon what the mind approves or rejects. Our understanding of values has a crucial role to play in our decision-making. My inclinations and motives as well as my actual choices are shaped by my mind. Again, if the mind is not involved, the the choice is made for no reason.
---Lupe2618 on 7/8/05


If the will is totally neutral, why would it choose the right or the left? It is something like the problem encountered by Alice in Wonderland when she came to a fork on the road. She did not know which way to go. She saw the grinning Cheshire cat in the tree. She asked the cat, "Which way should I turn?" The cat replied, "which way are you going?" Alice answered, "I don't know" Then the cat replied, "it doesn't matter".
---Lupe2618 on 7/8/05


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the brothers involvement was evil. There was a reason why Joseph's brothers sold him into slavery. They had an evil motivation. their decision was neither spontaneous nor neutral. They were jealous of their brother. Their choice to sell him was prompted by their evil desires. The second problem free will faces, is not so much moral as it is rational. If there is no prior inclination , desire, or bent, no prior motivation or reason for a choice, how can a choice even be made?
---Lupe2618 on 7/8/05


But, when God evaluates our choices, He is concerned about our motives. Consider the case of Joseph and his brothers. When Joseph was sold into slavery by his brothers, God's providence was at work. years later, when Joseph was reunited with his brothers in Eygpt, he declared to them, "you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good" Gen. 50:20. Here the motive was the decisive factor determining whether the act was good or evil. God's involvement in Joseph's dilemma was good;
---Lupe2618 on 7/8/05


I am going to finish with explaining free will to you. On the surface this is very appealing. There are no elements of coercion, either internal or external, to be found in it. Below the surface, however, lurk two serious problems. On the one hand, if we have no reason for our choices, if our choices are utterly spontaneous, then our choices have no moral significance. If a choice just happens-it just pops out, with no rhyme or reason for it-then it cannot be judged good or bad.
---Lupe2618 on 7/8/05


Jehovah Witnesses believe on the same system. They try to earn salvation. though they believe Christ was not God. They put in their time everyday and other things to make good on their commitment. But Scripture tells us, The Father has a purpose, The Son has a purpose and the Holy Spirit has a purpose. It tells us that the good we do comes from above. It does not come from ourselves. It is the work of the Holy Spirit to complete what Christ promised.
---Lupe2618 on 7/8/05


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You see Alan, in the system you and many believe, man works for his salvation. Even to earn it or else he will lose it. their whole system lies in man and not God. that is why when asked on once save always save, they answer against it. Both things are connected in that system. You give up one and the other has to go. No where is the work of the Holy Spirit at work in the believer. He is trying on his own efforts to do things right with God.
---Lupe2618 on 7/8/05


Alan, I know you cannot find Scriptures to support you view but I know what you are thinking on the matter. Not many are taugth anymore the way the teachers use to teach in the early church. Now things have change and God's Sovereignty is not taught anymore. I just wanted to bring some things to you and others to think for yourself why all those Scriptures are there and what do Christians do with them? I know what you say sounds great but that is not what the Bible says.
---Lupe2618 on 7/8/05


Thank you Madison. Again, I am so sorry for not feeling what you go through and only seeing what I do. Sometimes, that is the problem we all run into. It happens in marriage many times when a husband only thinks of himself and not the other person what they feel. One night I was thinking of answering someone on that issue and I thought about what I said to you. I know God in some way ordered me to do that. And of course He is always right. Thank you again Madison.
---Lupe2618 on 7/8/05


Lupe ... if God gives faith only to those He decides to, it makes them puppets.
That is not free will. It is like implanting faith into someone.
Is Faith not a gift? A gift is freely given, but it does have to be accepted.
---Alan8869_of_UK on 7/8/05


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This really neeeds a separate debate ... I will post a question.
---Alan8869_of_UK on 7/8/05


Lupe ... there was no need for Christ to die, if God choses those whom He will save.
We cannot be guilty of rejecting Christ if we are not given the choice.
Why did Christ say "Father forgive them for they know not what they do"?
What is your ministry, Lupe?
---Alan8869_of_UK on 7/8/05


Lupe, thank you for your kind note.

I have been following this blog for a while and must say I believe Alan is making a whole lot of sense. I don't understand a lot of what you are posting, but I do see errors in logic in some of it.
---Madison on 7/7/05


Here is another verse, John 15:18-19, "If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you."
---Lupe2618 on 7/7/05


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Faith itself is a gift of God. if we boast then we think we deserve it. I want you to know Alan, that I respect you a lot. I write this things to you only to help you to open your mind and grow in the word. I don't change anyone's heart, only God can. I am not here to redicule anyone. This question on Iraq has a great impact as to how we answer. I don't take it for granted at all.
---Lupe2618 on 7/7/05


This is what Jesus says,"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him; and I will raised him up at the last day." No one can, is what Jesus says, and their is a condition, "unless God draws him" you see Alan, if you go to 1 Cor. 4:7, "For who sees anything different in you? what have you that you did not received? if then you received it, why do you boast as if it were not a gift?"
---Lupe2618 on 7/7/05


Hello Alan, you can talk to me. I am not angry, I am discusing Godly Scripture to you. As a matter of fact, I do love you. But Like Ruben, if you were wrong wouldn't you want to hear, to see if its true or not? I don't write the Bible. I don't get it out of the thin air. I am telling you that men left in their dead state are unable of themselves to repent, they have no power within themselves to change their natures or to prepare themselves for salvation.
---Lupe2618 on 7/7/05


"For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, indeed it cannot; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 1Cor.2:14, "The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned." John 8:44, "You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires." As you can see Billy, the condition is bad.
---Lupe2618 on 7/7/05


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Brother Billy, I like your concept called (Prevenient grace) but, where does it say that it is for salvation? I will gladly look it up. I know that everyone gets grace from God for free, even the wicked, because they enjoy the Sun, their health, and many times a better life while they are alive then the average Christian. But that in itself does not bring them to Christ. The Bible is full to the contrary. God through out the Bible tells us what condition we are in. No mistake about that. In Romans 8:7-8,
---Lupe2618 on 7/7/05


Jesus said "Come unto me ALL who ... and I WILL ..." Nothing there to indicate that He would only give the wish to accept Him to certain selected puppet-persons.
I would rather rely on what Christ said, than on men's convoluted interpretations of scripture.
---Alan8869_of_UK on 7/7/05


Billy Thank you.
I do not see why if we make a decision to accept the gift that God is offering us can be classified a work. If our decision to accept is dictated by God, as Lupe suggests, it cannot be a genuine acceptance. Faith if God instills it in us cannot be true faith.
I think those who say God decides who will be given the grace and the faith are trying to write God's rule book.
---Alan8869_of_UK on 7/7/05


America is still in Iraq because Bush and his intelligentia did not do their homework properly and under estimated the mentality of the Iraqi's.

Moderator - Are you sure? Bush said it would take years and the war on terrorism would take decades.
---Albert on 7/7/05


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But there's a concept called "prevenient grace", which means that God in His mercy gives to every unsaved person enough grace to allow them to freely choose whether to come to Christ or not. They couldn't possibly do it without this gift, but not all of them choose to accept Him. This means all the glory is reserved to Him, and yet keeps Him from being the author of evil. It also means that anyone who wishes to be saved, can be. I think nothing else can break the deadlock Alan and Lupe have.
---Billy on 7/7/05


And again Alan, He doesn't direct the Hitlers of the world, He knows what is in their hearts. Do you really believe that God could not have stopped him? Oh, I don't know what book your are reading. It is imperative that we know God first. His Nature, His attributes. How could His attributes of Justice, mercy, wrath, righeousness have been shown without sin entering the world? We would for sure had been robots if He had made us all perfect.
---Lupe2618 on 7/7/05


Lupe,
That was beautiful what you wrote to Madison. If everybody did that it would make my heart tickle! Even if you dont agree, you still respect and love. Very refreshing attitude and I want to be more like that. thank you!
luv,
sue
---sue on 7/7/05


Christ was chosen before the creation of the world for the believers. It had a purpose in God's plan. Can you not see what is happening here? As Adam involved his people in death and condemation by his sin, even so Christ brought justification and life to His people through His righeousness. To show that free will fails, but righeousness through Christ triumphs. God had a purpose from the beginning. It also shows the justice of God on the unbeliever. There is a reason why they are punished.
---Lupe2618 on 7/7/05


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For Lupe and Alan: It is certainly impossible that any person could choose freely and "of himself" to come to Christ. Lupe is right when she says that would detract from the glory of God and make salvation partly a matter of works. That's intolerable. But, it's equally intolerable that God would create certain people just to damn them to Hell with no chance of salvation. Alan is correct when he says that the final result of that theology is to make God the creator of evil.
---Billy on 7/7/05


Alan, if you read 1Peter 1:18-21, "For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. Through Him you believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and glorified Him, and so your faith and hope are in God."
---Lupe2618 on 7/7/05


You mention that I said God created evil. I never said that. That He allowed evil into the world is true. He could have stopped it but didn't. Don't you see that? He could have kept Adam safe from sinning if He so wanted. But didn't. Did God know he was going to sin? of course He did. Did God know what condition we were going to be in after? yes He did. Did He know what was in Adams heart? He did. Did God force him? No He didn't. Doesn't that tell you anything? Did God have a plan for the fall of man?
---Lupe2618 on 7/7/05


Christianity is not dualism. We do not believe in two ultimate equal powers locked in an eternal struggle for supremacy. If Satan were equal to God, we would have no confidence, no hope of good triumphing over evil. we would be destined to an eternal standoff between two equal and opposing forces. Satan is a creature. He is evil to be sure, but even his evil is subject to the Sovereignty of God, as is our own evil. God's authority is ultimate; His power is Omnipotent.
---Lupe2618 on 7/7/05


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Alan, how can you say that? what a terrible thing to say. I thought you had more class then that. I read all your postings and have mentioned so many things good about you. I guess I have read you wrong my brother. You mentioned things to me without giving me something from Scripture that you see that I am wrong on. My feelings and yours isn't what is in Scripture. If Satan is in control then what assuance would we have of anything that God has promised us?
---Lupe2618 on 7/7/05


Lupe ... the eventusal outcome of all you say is that evil is created by God, and that He directs the Hitlers of this world.
---Alan8869_of_UK on 7/7/05


America has finally got the President that we have been praying for and quess what? We don't appreciate him. sound familiar? Not all of us, but so many are Bush bashers. I didn't hear this with Clinton. Pray that God does'nt take away His needed grace. We should ALL be praying for our President and we should be praying for the right people to be installed in the Supreme Court. Wake up before it's too late!
---John on 7/7/05


madison
ihave asked that question to hundreds of people this question and over 95% say they are afraid of just that.
why are we in iraq one reason only
the UN was created to keep another hitler from rising. the U.N. was afraid to lose their oil privliges. they failed to stop a second hitler \.sadam we did their and are doing the job the U.N shoud have done
---willow on 7/7/05


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and I should have been able to at least seen your way. Again, I ask you to forgive me. The things of God are so critical, and it is important to be right with God. Our opinions don't really mean anything to God, only our actions cause we will be judge by them. When something like this continues it only opens the door to the enemy.
---Lupe2618 on 7/7/05


Madison, I believe that you and I got on the wrong side very fast. I'm ask by God to write you and ask you to forgive me for what I have said to you. It is not me to hurt anyone. As a Christian I should be trying to help others. I admit you and I don't see the same points in war, politics, and maybe anything else, but It is up to me to humble myself to you. Whatever your believes I have no right to say anything to you. we all struggle in life in different ways
---Lupe2618 on 7/6/05


If you are honest about your faith in Christ, and you think you have an answer, let me know. But don't chastise because of your feelings. Yours and mine don't count, but God's do. I am here again Alan show me where I am wrong.
---Lupe2618 on 7/6/05


Alan, you are not the only one that doesn't agree, I know there is many here on the website that don't but can they give the answers to what I asked? I don't think so, because they know that faith comes from God. They know that God has to do something to the person first before they can respond. If you don't believe that, then why pray for a lost relative when they are lost? Why ask God to touch them and save them? Why ask God for help at all if that person can do it on his own?
---Lupe2618 on 7/6/05


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You say all those things to me without you looking up the verses as they are written. Sure you can pick a verse here and there, the ones you want to make what you want, but if you take the whole verse in its whole context you will see that I am speaking Truth to you. You might not like what I say, you might not like what I do, but it isn't about me, but about God. The glory should always go to Him. Why don't you make a study from the start of Scripture and see how Adam was allowed to sin.
---Lupe2618 on 7/6/05


God say's it in His word. If you are coming to Christ you would have to have some inclination to come to Him, but the inclination man has when lost is to do evil all the time. If you are blind, how can you see Christ to except Him as your Savior? How can you love Him if you hated Him? You would suddenly have to come alive, see, and make a choice, and if you didn't want Him then you would go back to death? now Alan, You show me where it says that. If you can I will gladly look it up.
---Lupe2618 on 7/6/05


Alan, everything I put down was from scripture. Everything you put down is from your feelings. You show me where I am wrong on scripture and I will gladly check to see if I am wrong. You might not like our God the way He works but that is the God of the Bible. You say He died for the whole world yet many are going to hell. You say that He died for the ones that believe in Him, well that is correct. Only the ones that believe in Him. Now, how can they believe? If faith is given to them. I don't say it,
---Lupe2618 on 7/6/05


cont: As for fear of dying, no, I am not afraid of dying. I recently had a two month cancer scare while waiting for some medical tests. I came to terms with the fact that my body is not my own, it belongs to my Lord. If, in His permissive will, He allows someone to kill me, I will be in His presence, and not have to deal with this life any more. I have no fear of death. I look forward to meeting my saviour face to face.
---Madison on 7/6/05


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Willow, as Randy has pointed out, the terrorists that attacked us were not from Iraq but Saudi Arabia.

As for being afraid, I am not afraid of terrorists. I taught in an inner city school in Philadelphia last year. Three of our students brought an Uzi to school and intended to use it on a teacher. It made the news, and the kids were arrested. I think I have more immediate things to be afraid of than terrorists.
---Madison on 7/6/05


madison
dear sister I have one question for you.
are you afraid that the terrosits will attack and kill you?
---willow on 7/6/05


Heather: Just because a person quotes scriptures doesn't mean they are walking with God. Satan quoted scriptures. Every president has asked the American people to pray for him. That's not proof either. The other presidents also professed to praying while in office.

I don't see the fruit of his faith at all. Talk is cheap.
---Madison on 7/6/05


Chara: They found NO weapons of mass destruction. That was a lie.
---Madison on 7/6/05


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I believe that it was because of Grace when Jesus died, and that by Grace we are ALL offered the prize that His death brings us ... freely offered, not deserved ... that is what grace means.
And we have the free will to accept or reject. And if we accept, that same grace sanctifies our relationship with Jesus and God
---Alan8869_of_UK on 7/6/05


And it seems to be about the way/order/time/context of Grace ...
In your creed, God by His infinite mercy, graciously allows you and a few others to accept Jesus' sacrifice, but does not allow others' to do so.
Some infinite mercy!
---Alan8869_of_UK on 7/6/05


But what you creed denies all that. Your God decided that only those He preselected would be given the grace to accept His Son. The rest He would cast into Hell ... or whatever eternal damnation is.
So He actually makes a vast number of human beings ... not just animals, but people made in His image ... just so that He can send them to eternal anguish.
Sound like He is playing some kind of Arcade game, or running His own toy railway.
---Alan8869_of_UK on 7/6/05


Lupe thank you for yuor great long answer ... but I still find it difficult to reconcile it with the Gospel that Christ proclaims. He invited ALL to come unto Him. He said nothing about most of them being turned away. He beseeched men to turn to Him. He prayed for those who killed Him, and He died so that all who believed in Him .... etc.
---Alan8869_of_UK on 7/6/05


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the answer is simple
cause WE NEED TO BE THERE
sadam has mass destructive weapons pointed at the USA
although they claimed to have not found anything what do u think tear gas is? and what damage it can do if sadam carried out his threat? this war is to protect the amrican people..no on likes all the lives it toke ...but think positively think of all the lives it saved
---chara8358 on 7/6/05


Now my opinion and my vote is not going to change what God has in store for us. He does not work to my opinion. He does what He knows is wise and holy. If it was left to us, we would for sure distroy everything. God knows why you ask, and why Madison has what she has in her heart. He knows and will judge us by what is in our hearts. I am here to answer anything you want to say to me. I stand firm on sound doctrine, no matter where it takes me.
---Lupe2618 on 7/6/05


Alan, you also mentioned that I said that the liberals are going against the godly conservatives, I did not say that at all. I said that the conservative view is for morals and values. I did not say that conservatives are godly. I do not know who is and who is not. I vote for whom holds the morals, and though Madison might not think that, the liberal movement is for the rights of gays and abortionist and other things that are not moral as a Christian. We vote for what is in our hearts.
---Lupe2618 on 7/6/05


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