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Will Non-Baptized Go To Heaven

People who are not baptised but are born again Holy Spirit filled when thy die will thy go to heaven?

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 ---George_Conduah on 6/18/05
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All I can hope for is for everyone one day soon to see. Everything that is, is by the hand of God. You can fight it all you want. But, I know, as you yourself in your heart know the truth, of it. Even in the law! Hold the law in your hand, and look at that man.
Now, look at The Lord. Yes, put down the stone.
Glory is, the father and the son and the Holy Ghost!
God Bless You All. Amen!

This is not, if it sound too good to be true!
---TheSeg on 5/31/09


Sounds so good on paper, yes? However...

Ro 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:


Baptism doesn't save anyone... it kills them. We can't be be "born again"--through the "baptism" of the Holy Spirit--until we've died: through repentence and... by "baptism" into Christ's death.
---BruceB on 5/31/09


As to the thief on the cross:

How could he have been baptized into Christ's death... since Christ had not yet died and been resurrected? (And though he was crucified along side Christ, I'm pretty sure that's not what Jesus intended regarding being buried into His death, through baptism.)

Jesus proclaimed that the thief would be with Him in paradise. Can the Son of God not choose as He sees fit?

Baptism, into His death, is not man-made. It is God's own proclamation, by His Son, who so chooses as He sees fit:

Mt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Try tossin' a coin: heads, He meant it--tails, He didn't.
---BruceB on 5/31/09


AJ Great Job!
Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you.

Mat 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father, neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Mat 21:25 The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men?
And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven, he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him?

What get me is they all know in their hearts, these things are true!
All things are of God!
God Bless You AJ!
---TheSeg on 5/31/09


Yes but one time it says: He that believeth an is baptized will be saved, He that believeth not will be damned. Meaning to not believe baptism will do you know Good, you have to believe Jesus is the Son Of God and in his Baptism by water and by Spirit. Those who rebel against the Gospel are the enemy of the Gospel.

Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit,
hudor hoo'-dore hudatos hoo'-dat-os, etc.
water (as if rainy) literally or figuratively:--water.

Jesus was talking about being saved. You are not saved by natural birth you are cursed and must be born again spiritually.
---Exzucuh on 5/30/09




AJ, you have done a great job in answering, and explained it very well. There will be people that will argue with you, because many RCC's answer differently, not only them but some others who have the same practices, that of salvation by works. Their rebirth is in the water baptism in which by their own works they decide to be born again, and other things like eating Christ, penance, and Purgatory. All man's attempt to make himself worthy to enter heaven. None RCC's believe by their own good deeds they are worthy of heaven. They want to proclaim there is something good in them. A far cry from the true gospel of Jesus Christ.
---Mark_V. on 5/28/09


BruceB ... Join the club.

At least you have not been totally banned yet ... as at least one has
---alan8566_of_uk on 5/28/09


People who are not baptised are not born again.To be born again, one must be born of water and of Spirit. Born of water is baptism in Jesus' name. Born of Spirit is having the Holy Ghost. Please read St. John ch.3 - It is a big help.
---donald on 5/28/09


Matthew 9:17: "Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved."
The blog, "Explain Matthew 9:17" has excellent commentary specially by ShawnM.T and Pharisee who also gave a key, "John's and the Pharisee's disciples fast and mourn penitently to draw close to God, the disciples have him."
The Word of God is not 'water', Spirit is not water, John 6:63.
"Either make the tree good, and his fruit good, or else..." Baptism is about that. John came first as is proper, "crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias."
---Nana on 5/28/09


Hi Dave, #2

The entire book of James is dealing with works, letting your light shine, showing others your faith through your good deeds, etc.

James 5:19 is dealing with saving one while they live here on this earth. This is not an eternal salvation, but a timely salvation. Only Christ can save one eternally, not man. I can however, influence my brother in Christ (notice 5:19 the word "Brethren") to turn from his wicked ways, and save him from death (walking contrary to God and not with God.)
---trey on 5/27/09




First of all, we must understand that there is more than one type of baptism spoken of in scripture (Heb 6:2).

Baptism by the Spirit:
Christ baptizes with the Holy Ghost - John 1:33. This is the same baptism that Christ also spoke of in John 3:6.

Baptism by water:
There is being baptized by an ordained Man of God, such as Jesus was in Matt 3:13 - 17.

Not all God's children will be baptized by water. (Thief on the cross - Lu 23:43). Many of them baptized by water will not receive a proper baptism by immersion.

All of God's children will be born of the Spirit of God (baptized by the Spirit of God.) This is a miracle all his people have in common - Eph 4:5, Jude 1:3.
---trey on 5/27/09


Yes they should. Baptisim by water in an outward proclamation.However aceptting Jesus & baptisim by the holy spirit is different.God knows when you do this.
---candice on 5/27/09


Yes. Ask yourself this...if a person does what Romans 10:9-10 says then dies 10seconds later, will they go to hell because he/she wasn't baptized in water? No.
Salvation is a gift the we aren't working for or have worked to obtain. It was freely given to us by Jesus.
---Rickey on 5/27/09


---AJ I am somewhat appalled by the blunt truths presented in your last post. Do you not realize that at least a third all professing Christians believe that baptism is absolutely necessary for the remission of sins?
---mima on 5/27/09


Baptism does not save. Baptism is an act of obedience that FOLLOWS personal salvation.

Baptism after salvation is required for membership at the church I attend. But, they take people at their word. All you have to do to join is sign a statement certifying that you were baptized AFTER you got "saved". If you are not yet baptized, they will do it on the spot when you join. Last year, we had over 350 salvations and 600 baptisms.

But, don't forget, the thief on the cross next to Jesus did not get baptized and went straight to heaven when he died!
---obewan on 5/27/09


Part 3
Not one time does any Scripture say that sins cannot be remitted without baptism. Not one time does the Bible say, without water baptism sins cannot be remitted, Not one time does the Bible say baptism has made you whole, but it does say, or Jesus says Your FAITH has made you whole and "without the shedding of blood is no remission" and "Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish" and many like expressions (Heb 9:22, Luke 13:1-5, Matt 18:1-3, Acts 3:19, John 3:1-5, etc.). There should be at least one simple statement in Scripture that says without water baptism one cannot be saved if it is so all important. No such statement can be found nor even one that hints such an idea,
Ready to be saved By Jesus?
---AJ on 5/27/09


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Part 2
Remission of sins by water baptism
contradicts hundreds of Scriptures, which say that sins are remitted, and men are saved,
By confession and faith from the heart (Rom 10:9-10, 1 John 1:9).
By calling upon the name of the Lord (Acts 2:21, Rom 10:9-13).
By believing on Jesus (John 3:16-18,26, Acts 10:43, 13:38-40, 16:31,
Rom 10:9-10, 1 Cor 1:21).
By repentance and faith in the gospel (Mark 1:14-15, Acts 20:21).
By receiving and believing that Jesus is the Christ (John 1:12, 1 John 5:1).
By repentance and conversion (Acts 3:19, 2 Cor 7:9-10).
By faith in His name (Matt 1:21, Acts 3:16, 4:10-12).
By the Word of God (1 Peter 1:23, James 1:18, John 3:5, 15:3).
Anybody ready to be saved By Jesus?
---AJ on 5/27/09


Why are you so rebellious against Baptism. I have found that people who are rebellious against the teachings that are part of the Gospel, are generally hiding something else, they discredit the Gospel and water it down so they can remain in sin. If you repent you will be forgiven and God will give you his Holy Spirit so you will not be blind to the Gospel and empower you to obey it.
---exzucuh on 5/24/09


Part 1

Remission of sins by water baptism reverses the whole order of the gospel, which is repentance and faith before baptism (Mark 1:14-15, Matt 21:32, Acts 20:21, Rom 10:9-10).
It contradicts hundreds of Scriptures, which say that sins are remitted, and men are saved, justified, sanctified, and washed from sins:
By grace through faith (Rom 3:24-25, Eph 2:8-9, Acts 15:8-9).
By faith without works (Rom 3:22-28, 4, 5:1, Gal 3:19-29).
By faith in the blood of Jesus (Rom 3:24-25, 5:9, Eph 1:7, Rev 1:5, 1 John 1:7, Matt 26:28, Heb 9:22, 1 Peter 1:18-23).
By the death of Christ (Rom 5:10-11, 1 Cor 15:1-5).
By the obedience of Christ (Rom 8:2).
By the Spirit of life in Christ (Rom 8:2).
Ready to be saved By Jesus?
---AJ on 5/22/09


Roman 6 clearly teaches that Baptism is a physical work that we do that has great spiritual values. :4 says that those who are baptized are baptized into his death.
In : 4 it says that baptism burries us with him and also raises us with him.
:5 says we are planted with him.
:6 says that our old man is crucified with him and the body of sin has been destroyed.
:7 says the baptized person is now dead.
:9 says that death has no more dominion over the baptized person. Now why would anyone not want to be baptized? There seems to be great rewards.
---john on 5/22/09


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Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
---Kellie on 5/22/09


Well, AJ...

I guess they (or the computer reading these comments) just don't like what I have to say. No sense in wasting any time trying to have an interchange of opinion.

Peace, Brother.
---BruceB on 5/22/09


Part 1
James:
You say that I say this,

You say >>>People who are not baptised but are born again Holy Spirit filled when thy die will thy go to heaven?<<<

I don't say this but have given scripture that clearly says you can be born again and are born again before you are baptized,And as a christian you should be baptized but that will not make you born again, the scriptures show that baptism is an outward work or symble of what has taken place in a persons heart when they are born again by the spirit of God threw Jesus by the power of the holy spirit.We are not living under a law, we are living under GRACE, this is the reason Jesus came to us to do what the Law could not do and that is remove our sins by the blood of Jesus.
---AJ on 5/21/09


Hello There. Peace of Christ.

You say >>>People who are not baptised but are born again Holy Spirit filled when thy die will thy go to heaven?<<<

Nobody can be a "Born Again" if he/she is not baptized in the Name of Jesus, Keeps His Law (The 10 Commandments) and Believes and Understands and Accepts His "ONNESS"...anyone who does something different to what the bible says....means Eternal Life in Hell....show me one person who is baptized in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit in the bible....go ahead?!!!

God Bless.........Brother James
---Brother_James on 5/21/09


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Part 1
The "water" in John 3:5 refers to the Word of God, as proved in John 15:3, 17:17, Eph 5:26, Rom 1:16, 1 Peter 1:18-23, James 1:18. It is by the Word of God and the Holy Spirit that men are born again. The new birth is a spiritual one and not physical as Nicodemus thought. No statement in any Scripture even hints that natural water could affect a spiritual birth. Therefore, since we have many plain statements that water is symbolic of cleansing by the Word of God, why not be consistent and take John 3:5 as referring to the Word of God? No other scripture can be given to support the idea of natural water in John 3:5 so that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established.
---AJ on 5/20/09


Part 4
This is what is meant in Titus 3:5-6 by the "washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost, which he [God, not some human baptizer in water] shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ." God sheds this upon men.

While in water baptism men plunge candidates into water.

Sins are actually washed by the blood (Rev 1:5, 7:14, 1 John 1:7), but they are symbolically washed in water as a testimony to the world of inward cleansing (1 Peter 3:21, Acts 22:16).
---AJ on 5/20/09


Jacob 3/17/08: I agree with your post. When one accepts Jesus Christ by faith, they are at that moment "born again". Formal baptism is an act of obedience symbolizing the death of self and life for Christ. I find it hard to believe that a believer who hasn't had the opportunity for formal baptism, would be excluded from heaven based upon the baptism issue.:)
---Jody on 5/20/09


AJ, (part 1)

John 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea, and there he tarried with them, and baptized

Since the above verse is the conclusion of that passage, and therefore is as necessary to the context of the passage as the other verses, Jesus' reference to "born of water" appears to be concerning something different than mere fleshly birth. How would "Born AGAIN" include the fleshly birth, as it is the "first birth": and why would a fleshly first birth be integrated into a second spiritual rebirth?

It is obvious that a person is born of the flesh: if not, they wouldn't be a person and a birth of the spirit would not even be an issue.
---BruceB on 5/20/09


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BruceB:
Look who John said that were saying that Jesus was baptizing{Pharisees}

Jesus Himself did not baptise!!

Amp>John 4:1 NOW WHEN the Lord knew (learned, became aware) that the Pharisees had been told that Jesus was winning and baptizing more disciples than John--

John 4:2 Though Jesus Himself did not baptize, but His disciples--

John 4:3 He left Judea and returned to Galilee.

Msg>John 4:1 Jesus realized that the Pharisees were keeping count of the baptisms that he and John performed

John 4:2 (although his disciples, not Jesus, did the actual baptizing). They had posted the score that Jesus was ahead, turning him and John into rivals in the eyes of the people.
---AJ on 5/20/09


Let us start by checking out the entire verse in context:

Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?" Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, "You must be born again.' (John 3:3-7)
---AJ on 5/20/09


There are two conditions to enter the kingdom of God. Which comes first? "Born of water," according to the verse.Jesus clarifies what He means in the next verse, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." Being born of water is referring to being born physically (the water referring to the amniotic fluid that breaks as one is born). This is why He said "You must be born again." The first birth is the birth from water, or the flesh. The second is to be born of the Spirit, which is of God. I think it is pretty clear that the verse does not refer to baptism,At this point, the "entering" is for anyone who is born again (born of the Spirit).
---AJ on 5/20/09


AJ writes: "Ask yourself this question, How many people did Jesus baptize?? The answer is none..."

John 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea, and there he tarried with them, and baptized

Obviously, He baptized some. If you read John 3:1-22, you can see that baptism is a requirement... straight from the mouth of Jesus, Himself:

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

He didn't say "either / or". He said AND!
---BruceB on 5/20/09


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Ask yourself this question, How many people did Jesus baptize?? The answer is none, Jesus told a person that their sins were forgiven,Because Your faith has made you whole. He, Jesus also said he is the same yesterday, today and forever. Put your trust in Jesus, not a plan,form or program.
Jesus is the way the truth and the light, Always has been and always will be. Also do you think if a person that doesn't know Jesus and was suddenly hurt at a point of death and cried out to Jesus would be ignored?? Of course not. Jesus is always ready to seek and save. Babtisam is important,But not more important than a personal relationship with Jesus.
---AJ on 5/18/09


Romans 10:8,"..if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your hearth that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved." Those who have accepted Christ as their Lord and Savior will enter into heaven regardless of whether they have received water baptism or not for salvation is by God's grace through faith alone, not by acquiescence of religious rituals.
---Jacob on 3/17/08


Yes, if you are not in disobedience. In other words, if you have not ignored the Person of the Holy Spirit. Which I would imagine is what you did. If that should be the case you would need to ask for sincere, heartfelt, forgiveness. and die peacefully right into Jesus' arms. Note: Never ignore what God is leading you into. Baptism is certainly an outward sign of a new life that you have received by the grace of God.
---catherine on 3/17/08



Jesus said, believe... do works... obey my commands... First, believe, For the demons in hell believe that Jesus is the son of God, But are they going to heaven?

Second, Works, For even the sinners do good works.

Obey my commands, Believe, get baptized, do good works.

Jesus said a man that does no works is dead.
Jesus himself was baptized. Follow his example. Why would you expect to go to heaven doing things your way instead of the way Jesus taught by example.
---Mark on 3/15/08


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catherine: "I wonder is anyone really Christ-like? Myself getting to know God, I don't know. He does have different sides to Him. Man."

God only has one side - love. It seems that if you believe that he has different sides then he is one God with many gods inside him.
---Steveng on 3/14/08


catherine: As for people that are Christ-like, yes. Far and few between. These Christians are the ones who perform greater miracles than Jesus. They are on the street corners proclaiming the Kindom of God and how to get there without being associated with denominational, non-profit church buildings.
---Steveng on 3/14/08


God will give the unbaptized a chance to accept him. It is the ones that are not accepting God that doesn't recieve his glory,I know of some already accepting God & his word but not getting baptized yet.
---candice on 3/14/08


[Part 2] I see in scripture that baptism is a public profession of ones faith that although your relationship with Jesus and therefore with God is personal it is not private. One is to be born both of the water and the spirit directly refers to a person having two births. Ones physical birth is clearly in context and as such provides the reference to the birth of water as in Im having a baby my water just broke.
---Joe on 3/14/08


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[Part 1] I cannot help but conclude that if baptism is required to go to heaven then this means that faith in Jesus is not sufficient that Jesus is not sufficient. It also means that the thief on the cross did not go to heaven although Jesus seems to say that he would. It also begs the question about OT saints they werent baptized so does this mean Father Abraham is not in heaven?
---Joe on 3/14/08


I went to the Cross on bent knee & a Sorrowful Heart, I was 12 and I was Baptised that night, It was Easter 1974.
I knew at that age the wages of sin & the acts of it, I already had a tattoo of a Cross on my arm at that age.
I found Favor with God & his Son when I was a Littleboy.
And he has led me many places in life & many types of people from all over the world, and I have told them the same things i tell you today.
---Duane_Dudley_Martin on 3/13/08


I wonder is anyone really Christ-like? Myself getting to know God, I don't know. He does have different sides to Him. Man.
---catherine on 3/13/08


Jesus was baptized, so I would figure, in copying him in everything, I should be baptized. I don't count baby baptism as that was not my decision.
---frances008 on 3/13/08


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So, if the RCC say baptism is necessary, then they should think about proper baptism when the baptised knows what he/she is doing, and the same with the other churches.
---frances008 on 3/13/08


I am dubious about people who say they are saved but do not wish to announce it to the world publicly. Baptism does that, it is evidence against us to be presented to Satan, and evidence for us to be presented to God. Why would anyone hesitate to do it?
---frances008 on 3/13/08


According to the following denominations. The answer is NO!!!
The RCC
The LutheranS
The Church of Christ
Many people both in and out of these churches believe it is absolutely necessary to be baptized to go to heaven. Many times when I'm out witnessing people say to me "well I Have been baptized" offering their having been baptized as qualifying them to go to heaven.
---Mima on 3/10/08


People who are born again, plain and simple, will be going to Heaven. There are not two classes of Christians. You either are or are not saved.John 3:3, "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
---Bruce5656 on 3/10/08


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"Except a man is born of the water and of the spirit, he WILL NOT enter the kingdom of God." self explanatory. many will believe it is not needed, but they deny many things in the bible too and live in a dreamworld. God is no respector of persons and prepared a way for everyone to receive the ordinance, but everyone here denies it exists so I won't mention it. Why explain mysteries of God to those who are blind to truth. It is like casting pearls before swine.
---ashley on 7/7/07


I would probably guess Yes they would go to heaven. Don't know for sure.I would be baptized as soon as possible in obedience to God, if it were me. Obedience is the issue here. I would not play with this. But If someone fell ill after being born again or die, before baptism, I say..this should not prevent their going to heaven.
---Robyn on 7/7/07


YES! YES! YES!
---F.F. on 7/6/07


Those who believe and are baptized shall be saved, and those who do not believe shall be condemned. These are not my words but came straight out of the mouth of the resurrected Jesus Christ. Debate me if you will but you can not deny his words. Jesus even said a man must be born of water and the spirit to enter heaven. Notice Jesus said must which leaves no loophole. If Jesus could make an exception he probably would but you have to ask yourself who's idea was baptism in the first place? The Father's
---shawn on 2/25/07


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We are saved by grace. Grace is given as a gift for those who wish to receive it by simply believing in Christ from our hearts. It would not be true grace if there were conditions that had to be met.
---chris on 5/15/06


I like Willow's answer to this question!!
---mima on 5/15/06


2 Cor. 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts. Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, You will absolutely go to Heaven, you are sealed with a promise. The promise of Heaven is only part of what you have received. We are to be baptized out of obedience,but it is not a requirement to get to Heaven. That's God's Grace!
---Debbie on 5/15/06


Apostle Paul claimed he was NOT called to baptize but to preach the gospel.1 Cor. 1:17
And Jesus Christ didn't baptize anyone in water.(John 4:2) Of course people who do not get water baptized will go to heaven!
The bible clearly tells us that we are baptized into the body of christ by the spirit. (1 Cor. 12:13) There is only ONE baptism today (Eph. 4:5) and it is not water it is the Holy spirit baptism that matters!
---Randall on 5/15/06


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emchee

you stated that baptism is esentual for salvation I just asked if the water of you baptism died for you? I thought that Jesus died for our sins.
I am baptised..but it is not nessary for salvation,belief that Jesus Christ is the Savior like the dying thief
---willow on 8/1/05


Willow dear fellow what you mean water die for your sins?How water Dies?explain,if you can water have life?
---Emcee on 7/24/05


John 1:12,13 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

James 1:18 In the exercise of **His will**He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.

Ephesians 5:26...so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word
---Tina5349 on 7/22/05


1 Peter 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Romans 6:3-4 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
---Tina5349 on 7/22/05


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Baptism = death of our old Adam.
The thief on the cross was baptized--in blood.

Romans 6:5-8 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
---Tina5349 on 7/22/05


Bruce ... thanks ... That is how i interptret the word ... But it really shows how sometimes the words used can be misunderstood.
HATE in most peoples mind means absolute hatred ... It is after all the word that is used about God's attitude towards sin.
---Alan8869_of_UK on 7/16/05


Alan,
Simply put, given the teaching of Christ on love, we understand that what he was telling us that our love for him must be so strong that we are prepared to accept the loss of the love of anyone, family or not, who will not support us in our committment to him. He warned this would happen in a similar passage when he said he did not come to bring peace but a sword. Matt 10:32-40
---Bruce5656 on 7/15/05


PART ONE:
Eloy,

I understand what Jesus was teaching. I am not advocating we hate anyone. This has to do with Jesus meaning what he said but not always saying what he meant.

The point is (for the third time) he DID SAY TO HATE. You told me "You're way out of bounds whenever you say that what Jesus said, he didn't really mean it." Now you are telling me the very same thing Yes he said it but he did not mean it.
---Bruce5656 on 7/15/05


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PART TWO:
It seems rather convenient to insist that what he said is to be taken literally in the one case because that is what he said and not in another case even though that is what he said.

Can you explain how we are to know when to take him literally and when we are not?

Also, you are avoiding my questions. I wonder why? Could it be the answers dont make sense when compared to your theology?
---Bruce5656 on 7/15/05


PART THREE:
Did He mean we must be baptized to be saved, or did he simply refer to baptism as a natural thing to do following conversion?
Mark 16:16, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." He did not say he that believeth not and is not baptized is damned, simply believeth not. In other words, it is the believing that saves not the baptism.
---Bruce5656 on 7/15/05


PART FOUR:
THIS view fits with the rest of scripture that deals with salvation by faith alone and not by works of any nature, no matter how right or proper they may be.
---Bruce5656 on 7/15/05


PART FIVE:
We can no more reconcile the idea that baptism is essential to salvation with the rest of His teaching or that of Paul than we can reconcile the idea of hating anyone with the rest of his teaching. Therefore we know that something else is being said rather than salvation comes through baptism JUST LIKE we know that something else is being said rather then we must hate our family.
---Bruce5656 on 7/15/05


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Bruce it would be interesting to hear what you think the word Hate meant when Jesus said those words
---Alan8869_of_UK on 7/15/05


Bruce, Your parents are not God. The command is to love God first and completely. "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives to the death." Revelation 12:11. Please read Luke 14:26. We are at war, and we must keep our devotion and allegience and loyalty and obedience to the Lord only. When God calls, "Come with me", but your parents say, "Stay with me". Who will you obey?
---Eloy on 7/15/05


PART ONE:
Eloy,
The correlation is not between hating anyone and being baptized. You missed the point.

You say; You're way out of bounds whenever you say that what Jesus said, he didn't really mean it. Ok, then did he mean we must hate our family? He DID say that. Luke 14:26, "If any man come to me, AND HATE NOT his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he CANNOT BE MY DISCIPLE."
---Bruce5656 on 7/14/05


PART TWO: If we were to apply your logic to this statement, we would have to say; When he said "hate" that's exactly what he meant, and nothing less.

The fact is:
Jesus always meant what he said.
He did not always say what he meant.

Did he mean that you must hate anyone? No. We know this by studying other scriptures.
---Bruce5656 on 7/14/05


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PART THREE:
Did he mean you have to be baptized to be saved? No. We know this by studying other scriptures. If he meant we must be baptized to be saved then Paul is a liar when he said; Eph. 2:8-9, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."
---Bruce5656 on 7/14/05


PART FOUR:
Would you please answer these questions?

If baptism is essential for salvation, does that mean the repentant one is still damned up until the time of baptism?

How much time can transpire between belief and baptism? Is it measured in minutes, hours, days, weeks?

What makes your belief that you must be baptized to be saved any different from the Catholic belief in baptismal regeneration?
---Bruce5656 on 7/14/05


Rebecca D, Christ was baptized only to fulfill the law, Romans 15:8. Until Christ's death on the cross, all was under the law. When Christ died, and was risen again, he removed the law that kept us under bondage. Freed us from our debt of sins we bore, Colossians 2:14.
---geraa7578 on 7/14/05


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