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Catholics Allowed To Read Bible

I am getting to know some who have catholic background. I would like to know if what they said is true or if they are pulling my leg. "catholic children not aloud to read the bible?" They told me that they have trouble reading bible, because they weren't taught to. I have since babyhood.

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confess to one one another-James 5:16-Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.And yes you have the power to forgive someone.Jesus said-# Matt6:14-For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.Matt 6:13-15 Matt 6
Matt 6:15But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.Matt 18:20-22-21 Then Peter came to Him and said, Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?
22 Jesus said to him, I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.
---paul on 12/19/08


nicole,
what is it I am suppose to confess?
Christ knows all and it is to Christ I confess all of my sins as He comands me to do.
You said "Christ doesn't determine your salvation".
WHAT? this blasphemy. Why did Christ come?
To SAVE us. What is salvation? Us believing that Christ died for our sins. GRACE!!!
So now you believe you can save yourself?
(I am asking a question so please don't get upset)
Christ is the ROCK! not Peter. Christ has the keys, not Peter. What are you gonna do on judgement day when God asks you why you believe on Peter but not on Christ? Say I did not know?
There are people on here that want you to know so you don't have to worry.
---miche3754 on 11/29/08


MIC*but neither does Lee say who Jesus is and what then is Jesus Church?

Lee did quote scripture (Mt. 16,16)by saying Jesus is the Christ, the son of the living God.

He also stated that Jesus said His church was to be build on those who confessed who Jesus is. 'Upon this rock (the confession) I will build my church'.

If you want to elaborate even further, by theological definition, the church is 'the community of those who profess faith in Jesus Christ'. Westminister Dict. of Theo Terms.
---Lee1538 on 11/29/08


Mark says:-"I am SURE,since Luther many have opened their eyes to the truth and been reborn,but they were not reborn by Water,But by the Holy spirit".Did Luther an apostate Priest go against the Holy spirit, Jesus God, and His church?If so, what spirit could he be filled with?are you still 'SURE' or is it conjecture.Do you Have proof, by scripture? 'Well I have proof to the contrary Read JN14:16-17 and Jn15:6-16. Your rebirth must hve substance in Matt16,13-19
---Mic on 11/28/08


Lee1538...cont,

Lee! When you give a gift to someone freely.
You don't take it back after awhile do you?
You don't require them to pay for some of it do you? (purgatory)

If you do not. Are you greater than God? Is not His Mercy and Grace infinite?

Have you in your past forgiven someone for something they did? You know that they didn't mean too, but it hurt you badly.

Are you greater than God Here too?

Psalm 19:12 David asks: Who can understand his errors? Cleanse me from secret faults.

Is God not Faithful do forgive secret faults if we ask? 1John1:9

The RCC and Nicole say we will always have some unconfessed sin. That they say we must pay for.

Not according to God!
---Mike356 on 11/28/08




Markv & Lee1538,

Lee I was playing off your words which is why I put in parenthesis (its people).

I know about church history.
I have Fr.John Laux's Church History book,
'A textual concordance of the Holy Scriptures" by T.D.Williams (Douay-Rheims) and others.
And I grew up as a Roman Catholic.

Once its people actually do read the bible, and compare scripture with scripture, rather than with denominational doctrine. They reject "denominational traditions" and embrace the traditions in Word of God.

Most demoninational traditions are "works" based. (You must do something in order to attain something else) Romans2:8

cont...

---Mike356 on 11/28/08


Lee says :-"Jesus is not the Roman Catholic church"11/27/08,but neither does Lee say who Jesus is and what then is Jesus Church?Peter makes this declaration in Matt16:16 and note what Jesus says about Peter.Then listen to our illustrious scribe as above.Do we listen to LEE or Jesus,and if you listen to Lee listen to Jesus words Matt16-18.Further,Let me draw your attention to Jn,10-9"I am the door,and Matt7:13 The narrow gate.Last but not least Jn13:15-18.He who has ears and understanding to bear witness to the truth.LET HIM BE a WITNESS to the word of God.Descend with Lee Mark Mike or Rise in truth with Jesus Our Godper the resurrection.
---Mic on 11/28/08


Mike - *From Luther on in the Roman church (it's people), it's been happening,

You need to read history as the Roman Church even during and after the time of Luther scorned the reading of the Bible. You need to read the various popes negative comments concerning Bible Societies.

As to reform, it is true that the Roman Church has to do something constructive to save their church as people were leaving the Roman Church by the thousands. What they did was often referred to as the Counter Reformation in which they stopped the sales of indulgences and defined what their beliefs were to be at the Council of Trent.
---Lee1538 on 11/28/08


Mike, Lee was speaking about their traditional believes. I don't think you got that correctly. Also, I believe as Lee that we need to see because as long as rebirth is the RCC's born again experience, water will never change who they are. It will only makes them physically clean on the outside but the inside still has to be change, and that does not happen without the Holy Spirit. Water or eating Jesus on Sunday's or going to purgatory will not bring rebirth to anyone.
I am sure since Luther, many have opened their eyes to the truth and have been reborn, but they were not reborn by water, but by the Holy Spirit.
---MarkV. on 11/28/08


Will the Word of God being read among the people cause the Roman Church to abandon many of their traditional beliefs? We will have to wait and see.

---Lee1538 on 11/27/08

You must not have been paying attention Lee. From Luther on in the Roman church (it's people), it's been happening. With great spurts of Spritual reberths (born agains) along the way.

It's happening now, and it will happen again in many more hearts, (of it's people) as the Day approaches. Acts2:16-21.

The People ARE the church!
---Mike356 on 11/28/08




Paul - *yes the Catholic church allows you to read the Bible. Ever since I was a kid born in 1964.

Yes what you say is true since Vatican II, the Roman Church started to realize that they could not prevail against the Word of God being read by their membership. They even took it off their forbidden reading listing.

And we read in Hahn's book Rome Sweet Home an encouragement to read the Bible.

But the problem the Roman Church faces is that the Word of God is a 2-edged sword that will sever many from the traditional teachings of the Roman Church.

Will the Word of God being read among the people cause the Roman Church to abandon many of their traditional beliefs? We will have to wait and see.

---Lee1538 on 11/27/08


yes the Catholic church allows you to read the Bible. Ever since I was a kid born in 1964.
They also give you workbooks to better understand the Bible more intensely. And Have Bible classes in school and Sunday school classes. The Catechism is another tool to help children and others understand the Bible.
We always read the Bible.

Nicole, these people here never get the Catholic church. They have tunnel vission. They don't get that Jesus is the core of our faith. They have some twisted thinking regarding that. I think it is brainwashed into their heads. It is a shame.
---paul on 11/27/08


Lee, Mike, MarkV, Good Job!
Soon everyone will know the truth,
but for some, IT will be too late!

Have you ever seen a person who has been institutionalized(prison), Many so called christians are in this same catagory.

They have tunnel vision and cannot see there surroundings(Bent over W/Blinders on)and are led like sheep to their Slaughter....

Please Brothers & Sisters, I beg of you to search the scriptures and NOT the wills & ways of Man!
YLBD
---Duane_Dudley_Martin on 11/27/08


Nicole - *Even Jesus doesn't determine your eternal Salvation.Each one determines for themselves.

In effect, you make yourself the Savior!

No wonder there is such a great conflict between Biblical Christianity and Romanism. Biblical Christianity believes Jesus is the Savior and whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16.

It is really a conflict between the Word of God and that of the Roman Catholic church.

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

And Jesus is NOT the Roman Catholic church!
---Lee1538 on 11/27/08


MarkV - *They just don't see this huge mistake.

Totally agree with you. The spiritually blind cannot see. While we preach Christ and Him crucified they peddle religion.

1 Cor 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
---Lee1538 on 11/27/08


Lee, you hit the nail on the head. If all authority has been given to the RCC, we might as well get rid of the Bible altogether. We don't need it anymore. Faith comes from hearing the Word of the RCC. So why read the Word of God. God has been silent. He is no longer the Savior, the RCC is.
Why follow the Bible, we might as well follow the RCC. The teachings of Jesus all become what the RCC says. And any added material they want is also to be considered Truth.
They just don't see this huge mistake. They have completely given their lives to the RCC and not to Christ. Even in their minds they believe they are right. That is why the fight for the Truth is so important. I came out of there and so should many. They are in bondage.
---MarkV. on 11/27/08


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Nicole...you said:

Then you reject John 6. The Disciples took Him literal and left Him.
But, you who were not there, decide He is speaking in symbols.

The Apostles took Him literal Too, Until (v63) when Jesus clerified the statement by revealing the one thing they weren't getting. Just as you and most catholics don't get!
You weren't there either! Which is why we use the Truth of Gods Word to direct us, Not Yours!

V63:"It is the Spirit who gives life, (not the eucharist, body & blood) The flesh profits nothing. THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK TO YOU ARE SPIRIT, And THEY Are Life.

Jesus Word, "Does Not Change", Malachi3:6
Do not Eat Flesh/Blood, Leviticus17:10-12
---Mike356 on 11/26/08


Christ gave authority specifically to Peter (keys being symbol of ecclesiastical authority) and that these keys (or authority) was passed downward to the bishops of Rome. In doing that they claim to possess the right to determine who will enter into heaven and who will not.--Lee1538

Thank you Lee. You are correct until the last part.
The RCC doesn't determine your eternal Salvation.
Even Jesus doesn't determine your eternal Salvation.
Each one determines for themselves.
Jesus wants everyone to be with Him in Heaven.
BUT HE FORCES NO ONE.

The authority is to make decisions on earth and it is bind in Heaven.
Jesus is backing up whatever the Pope proclaims in His Name.
---Nicole on 11/27/08


The point I believe Nicole is trying to make is that Christ gave authority specifically to Peter (keys being symbol of ecclesiastical authority) and that these keys (or authority) was passed downward to the bishops of Rome. In doing that they claim to possess the right to determine who will enter into heaven and who will not.

Effectively that makes the Roman Church the institution that determines your eternal salvation, not Christ as Christ apparently has abrogated that authority.

Unfortunately that is how Roman Catholics who have little or no knowledge of either the Scripture or of its Author, think.
---Lee1538 on 11/26/08


nicole,
you can rant you can rave but you can't change the truth.
Christ is THE KEY and Christ HAS THE KEYS. Not Peter.
I have said it, and so many on here back me up. Except for your few buddies in the RCC.
Christ said where 2 or 3 are gathered in my name, there I am in the midst of them.
How many times does it have to be said In the Word of God for it to be truth? just once here. All I need is the Word of God.
No where does it say anything at all about the RCC being the way. It say Christ is though.
So I apologize if I upset you with the TRUTH, but there it is.
---miche3754 on 11/26/08


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Miche3754, let me show you how you sound.
"Peter given somekind of special keys? That is false too."

How dare you?
Are you speaking to me or Jesus? Do you think I am speaking in Matthew 16:13-19?
Did I come up with the word key or Jesus?
Did I say 'whatever' in heaven and earth?
You are trying to get smart with me, but you are getting SMART with Jesus.
You are going against your own rule of Scripture only!

Do I care if you believe in the keys given to Peter by Jesus? NO!!!!!!!

"Believing in these things is Against God and what Jesus came for..."

So now believing in SCRIPTURE is against God?
Just say you don't believe Matthew 16.
Be finished with it.
Confess it!
---Nicole on 11/26/08


Miche3754, there lies your problem.
"No different than us"
She was chosen to carry God, not you or I.
She was chosen to fed Him, clothe Him and raise Him, not you or I.
You are jealous of Mary.
Because of your jealousy, you accuse us of putting Mary above Jesus, God and worshipping her.

Because you were saved at a earlier age than someone else, are you better than the other? No. Does God love you more? No.
Mary isn't better, but she is DIFFERENT!

Reason it out.
How can Jesus sacrifice a Body with Original Sin?
It wouldn't be ACCEPTABLE TO GOD!
Mary being Saved at conception is for US. God is thinking about ALL OF US, not just Mary.
LOOK AT THE BIGGER PICTURE.
Because God always DOES.
---Nicole on 11/26/08


Mike356, you are right, put you keep on contradicting Jesus with the Letters.
I will give you examples.

You believe in the Sinner's Prayer.
Jesus never spoke about this prayer.
You would think He would have mentioned it?
After the Ressurrection and before His Ascension He only spoke of one route to Salvation - Baptism.
But, you make up excuses about this.
You say it doesn't save, but it is only a symbol of our salvation, What?
Why would Jesus waste His breathe talking about symbols?

Then you reject John 6. The Disciples took Him literal and left Him.
But, you who were not there, decide He is speaking in symbols.

I can't not grasp your thinking at all.
---Nicole on 11/26/08


yes, nicole, I will give you much credit on these things.
But there are some you just can't connect because they simply are not true.
Mary being sinless? Not true
That she was saved during her conception? not true.Sinless? no one is without sin except Christ.
Mary was bringing about the fulfillment of prophesy, she is no differnet than us.
Peter given somekind of special keys? That is false too. We arent even going to go there about purgatory.
Believing in these things is Against God and what Jesus came for and what the Apostles preached.
---miche3754 on 11/26/08


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Nicole....

Now why did I list those Scriptures?

As you see, the Father,Son, And Holy Spirit are ONE! I know that you know this!
Yes, the words of Jesus, in Red Letters, in the Scriptures are to be honored all together.

But, Jesus spoke Through the Holy Spirit to the prophets of the OT, in the Letters, Gospels, Also to and through the Apostles.

You do not discount the words of the Paul and the apostles, Or OT prophets.
The words of the apostles don't contradict the words of Jesus, they are what Jesus told them to say through the Holy Sprit, and serve to CONFIRM the will of Jesus.
---Mike356 on 11/25/08


nicole....

2ndTim3:16, Says: ALL Scripture is given by Inspiration of God, and is profitable for DOCTRINE,for REPROOF, for CORRECTION, for INSTRUCTION in RIGHTEOUSNESS, That the man of God MAY BE COMPLETE, THOUGHRLY equipped for every good work.

Romans15:4, For whatever things were written before (OT, Letters) were written FOR OUR LEARNING, that we through the patience and comfort of the Scriptures Might Have Hope.

2Peter1:20-21: Knowing first that no prophecy of Scripture IS OF ANY PRIVATE INTERPRETATION, (21) for prophecy NEVER came By the Will of Man, BUT Holy Men of God spoke as they were MOVED by The HOLY SPIRIT.

cont...
---Mike356 on 11/25/08


Nicole, I agree with what you said that all the words of God in the bible fit together perfectly. The reason why people sometimes end up pitting verses against verses is because we sometimes try to interpret God's words guided by our personal beliefs and biases. But if we only let the bible interpret itself, we will see that (as you said) "they fit perfectly."

"Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and READ: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them." (Isa.34:16)
---manny on 11/25/08


Mark V.~ Thank you for sharing your 11/24 comments. It makes me thank God sooo much that we have the word of God to carefully look at now, and do not have to depend on men (who are often wolves in sheep's clothes) to be our guides concerning spiritual truths.
---Anne on 11/25/08


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*In later years the bible was restricted from the public. The fear was that once people read it, they would interpret the Bible different then they did and they would lose many members. We all know what happened.

Very true and they even dig up Wycliff's grave scattering his ashes into the sea all because he translated the Bible into the venacular so people could read it themselves. This was during the time, they had 3 popes so were too busy fighting among themselves to go after Wycliff.

The main problem is and always has been the blatant refusal of the Roman Church to admit they were wrong and had sinned.
---Lee1538 on 11/25/08


Nicole does'nt have faith in the accurracy of the word of God, 2Tim.3:16 ---Mike356

The RCC doesn't even know I am speaking to you.
My answer to you was common sense concerning the Bible and Jesus' Words.
You keep going to the Letters, because you can't use Jesus' Words in the Gospel to defend yourself.

I have been saying that Genesis to Revelation is the story of our Salvation.
I gave proofs of the connection of the Garden of Eden to the Cross. The Passover to the Cross.

It is you who want to pull out Passages from the Letters to cancel out another Passage in the Gospel.

No need, they all fit.
You may not know how, but trust in God.
They fit perfectly!
---Nicole on 11/25/08


Thanks Manny.

Nicole does'nt have faith in the accurracy of the word of God, (2Tim.3:16) and therefore relys on the RCC for her answers.

Look up Matt5:18 and Is40:8
Contemplate what Jesus is saying about the Law(Word), from Genesis to Revelation and the KJ version we have today.

I'll explain later...gotta get some sleep!
---Mike356 on 11/25/08


Before the reformation, there was no printing presses to write bibles in quantities. The Church had the Scriptures so only the Church interpreted the way they wanted. There wasn't much opposition until the time of the reformers.
The leaders had changed the Word of God, by adding and excluding passages and verses, for their own purposes. Many times because heresies came in, other times because it benefited the Popes and the Church doctrines. Other times to control the members from speaking against the Church.
In later years the bible was restricted from the public. The fear was that once people read it, they would interpret the Bible different then they did and they would lose many members. We all know what happened.
---MarkV. on 11/24/08


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Jesus spoke in aramaic, true. But Matthew translated it into greek.--Mike356 on 11/23/08

Let me understand you!
You know that Jesus was only speaking in Aramaic.
You know that in Aramaic, Peter ONLY means ROCK, not pebble or small stone.
But, because your Gospel of Matthew is translated in Greek, making Peter mean small rock.
This one you are following with all your heart and soul even though you have EVIDENCE that Jesus didn't say it?

That isn't logical. That show you lack common sense and only want to follow your own design.

The truth is out there Nicole! You just need to search it out in sincerity and wanting to know the truth.--Mike356 on 11/23/08

YOU NEED TO FOLLOW YOUR OWN ADVICE!
---Nicole on 11/24/08


luke,
markv is humble. It takes humbleness to teach the truth through insult(many here who are RCC have insulted him, many times).
It also takes humbleness to endure to the name calling, too.
Matt. 5:10 "Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." This spoken by Jesus himself.
MarkV,
you keep on teaching the truth.
We who know that God is searching for a people who will worship Him in Spirit and in Truth, are listening(reading).
God Bless you!!
---miche3754 on 11/24/08


Amen to you Mike.

And just to add:

Peter himself called members of the church as lively STONES.

"Ye also, as LIVELY STONES, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood..." (1Pet.2:5)

"And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone..." (Eph.2:20

The apostles (including Peter) are built upon the foundation (meaning they are not the foundation) -- the chief corner stone which is Jesus Christ.

No other foundation can be laid but Jesus Christ.

"For other foundations can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ." (1Cor.3:11)
---manny on 11/24/08


MarkV.: "you can see that the ability to see Jesus comes from God."

Of course.

"Your catechisms destroys this Truth. In your religion, RCC, you work to gain sight and faith."

You'll have to be more specific, but keep in mind:

"God opposes the proud but gives GRACE to the humble." (James 4:6)

Is being humble a "work"? It's difficult work!
---Luke65 on 11/24/08


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Son of God sent by God to save ALL who cry ABBA, FATHER!---miche3754

nicole said:

Then leave Jesus' Words alone!
Do you think Jesus needs you to interpret them for Him?
Do you think Jesus didn't realize He wasn't clear and so now He wants you all to fit His Words?

Matthew 16:13-19
Jesus is speaking Aramaic not Greek and YOU KNOW THAT!
You even used a Aramaic word 'Abba' and translated it for me!
Jesus changes Peter's Name ONLY!
Then He uses Peter which means Rock in Aramaic to uphold His Church.

The Aramaic word that Catholic apologists say Jesus spoke is 'keph'(kepha),
Meaning is "Hollow" rock. You either get a big(a) hollow rock, or a small(o) hollow rock.

cont....
---Mike356 on 11/23/08


nicole....cont,

Jesus spoke in aramaic, true. But Matthew translated it into greek.

As Paul said: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, for Doctrine, for Reproof, for Correction, for Instruction.....

Matthew uses the correct greek terms of "Petros" (small rock) for Peter compared to "Petra" (large rock) for Jesus, whom the church is built on!

Jesus is not going to build His Church on a "hollow"(kepha) rock!

Catholic apologists started steering away from using the "Aramaic" excuse when other scholars began to point this out.

The truth is out there Nicole! You just need to search it out in sincerity and wanting to know the truth.
---Mike356 on 11/23/08


Jesus:The Same yesterday,today and forever...
Heb13:8,
the WORD NEVER CHANGES...
God SPOKE through the Holy Prophet Isaiah calling HIMSELF the ROCK.
THIS DOES NOT CHANGE.

Jesus uses Peter(rock)to the Build the BODY OF CHRIST...(called ones)before the resurrection...
but JESUS APPEARED TO SAUL,AFTER THE RESURRECTION,(HE SPOKE IN HEBREW...GOD WILL SPEAK WHATEVER LANGUAGE HE HAS CREATED) AND CHANGED HIS NAME TO PAUL...

UNIVERSAL TEACHING STARTED...

A chosen vessel FROM JESUS to bear THE NAME before the Gentiles,kings and children of Israel,(NOT JUST THE JEWS)
Acts:9
PHARISEES WERE "HYPOCRITES"
"THEY SAY AND DO NOT"
MATT 23
But Saul was made BLIND TO SEE...

God's Peace.
---char on 11/21/08


Luke - *The Holy Writ tells us how the Lord opens our eyes:

And it was Holy Writ that caused the Reformation as after people started to read the Bible (thank the Lord for the invention of the printing press), Holy Writ clearly depicted the fact that the Roman Church was not preaching the gospel. All they had was doctrines designed to exploit people of their material possession, needed to build their Tower of Babel at Rome.

It is also Holy Writ that enabled me to see that Roman Catholicism is really a religion system that enslaves and does not possess the Spirit of the Lord.

2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
---Lee1538 on 11/21/08


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Luke, when you read the passage you just gave to Lee, you can see that the ability to see Jesus comes from God. These disciples saw many things Jesus did with their eyes but they did not belief. They had no faith. God by His sovereign authority kept them from recognizing Him until this point v. 16. His resurrected body was glorified and altered from its previous appearance and explains why even Mary did not recognized Him.
Your catechisms destroys this Truth. In your religion, RCC, you work to gain sight and faith. You think your duties or deeds will give you sight and faith, but that comes from God. All the deeds you do will not give you sight, faith, salvation. Salvation comes from God not from your church.
---MarkV. on 11/21/08


****
nicole, Im not adding to Gods word, sis.
Please calm down, Im just speaking whats in God's Word
****

Miche

Nicole defends her religious system ...it's sad to see those in rcc so blinded but they SERVE her (rcc refers to their building as "her") ...those in rcc submit their minds in wills to the pope per their catechism ...it is why they are programmed to believe what their system tells them ...she cannot see Gods Word ...nobody in this system can ...those who hate the truth from Gods Word lash out in contempt
---Rhonda on 11/20/08


Miche, I hate to say this but I don't think you can open Nicoles eyes to God's Truths as they are written in scripture.

Many times I tried to share scripture with Nicole as they are written, but it is sad to say it was all to no avail.
---Rob on 11/20/08


Lee1538: "Hopefully one day the Lord will open your eyes so you can turn to Christ for salvation and that before the day of judgment."

The Holy Writ tells us how the Lord opens our eyes:

"When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him" (Luke 24:30-31)

Unfortunately...

"Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him." (John 6:64)
---Luke65 on 11/20/08


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nicole, Im not adding to Gods word, sis.
Please calm down, Im just speaking whats in God's Word.
When Jesus says on this rock, He means on this revelation- "That I am the Son of God, I stepped out of Glory, took on flesh to die for your(all of us) sins. That you can be with ME and my Father forever."
Jesus took the "keys" to death by sacrificing himself. Through believing Christ is the Son of God, we have the "keys" too and get to live forever with Jesus.
If Jesus meant on Peter, he would have stated "and on you Peter(since Peter means rock) I will build my church." But Jesus didnt say that and isnt backed up by other scripture. The definition I gave you IS!
---miche3754 on 11/20/08


Nicole,
I am not sitting here claiming something is in the Bible when it CLEARLY is not.
I am not telling you to listen to me. I am telling you to pray and ask the Holy Ghost for guidance.
Doesn't Jesus say where two or three are touching and AGREEING, there I AM, in the mist of them.
Now, sister you have people who are in Christ telling you that this "keys" to Peter is false.
The key is JESUS. the keys arent with Peter. You already know this that Christ is your savior. Why do you need Peter?
And the "keys" in Matt. 16:19 is that Christ will give his Life for us so we will have eternal life. The "keys" to death are given to ALL Christians through Christ. That is the "keys". Not Peter.
---miche3754 on 11/20/08


Miche~ I appreciated your wise thoughts on your 11/19 posts. It baffles my mind the way so many churches (and obviously not just the Catholic church) take certain scriptures and twist them to say something that is not true for the sake of control.

While some people/churches take only a few verses of scripture (like they are at a 'Bible Smorgasbord') and focus more-less on those verses while basically ignoring the rest. Thanks for working to be true to God's Word...the whole word of God.For unless a church is striving to be true to the entire word of God, then how can they claim to be God's true church?
---Anne on 11/20/08


Nicole - *Now, why do you think you are right and I am wrong?

Ga 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.

And truly what you are promoting is indeed a gospel different from the one we find in Holy Writ as Christians preach Christ and Him crucified but you preach salvation through a worldly denomination that has a track record of evil & gross corruption.

Hopefully one day the Lord will open your eyes so you can turn to Christ for salvation and that before the day of judgment.
---Lee1538 on 11/19/08


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Sister, I am trying to get you to understand that the Church of Christ isnt any denomination, or doctrine.---miche3754 on 11/19/08

Yes, the true Church is you and I.
Can't you see that you and I think differently and believe the opposite?

But, you want me to take your opinion?
Why don't you take my opinion?
I prayed and I am sure you prayed?

You want us to take your intrepretion of the Bible.
Why don't you take our intrepretion instead?

You are no different from me.
You think I am blind and going on the wrong path.
Understand this!
I think the same as you. You are going the wrong path.

Now, why do you think you are right and I am wrong?
---Nicole on 11/19/08


Sister, I am trying to get you to understand that the Church of Christ isnt any denomination, or doctrine.---miche3754 on 11/19/08

Yes, the true Church is you and I.
Can't you see that you and I think differently and believe the opposite?

But, you want me to take your opinion?
Why don't you take my opinion?
I prayed and I am sure you prayed?

You want us to take your intrepretion of the Bible.
Why don't you take our intrepretion instead?

You are no different from me.
You think I am blind and going on the wrong path.
Understand this!
I think the same as you. You are going the wrong path.

Now, why do you think you are right and I am wrong?
---Nicole on 11/19/08


Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

And where are his books today?
---Frank on 11/19/08


Son of God sent by God to save ALL who cry ABBA, FATHER!---miche3754

Then leave Jesus' Words alone!
Do you think Jesus needs you to interpret them for Him?
Do you think Jesus didn't realize He wasn't clear and so now He wants you all to fit His Words?

Matthew 16:13-19
Jesus is speaking Aramaic not Greek and YOU KNOW THAT!
You even used a Aramaic word 'Abba' and translated it for me!
Jesus changes Peter's Name ONLY!
Then He uses Peter which means Rock in Aramaic to uphold His Church.

But remember, Jesus doesn't say I give My Keys to the Church.
No, He said 'you' meaning a person.
Which person was He speaking to? Peter.

Stop making EXCUSES AND ADDING TO HIS WORDS!
---Nicole on 11/19/08


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Reason why Jesus asked,
"HAVE YOU NOT READ?"
THE QUESTION WAS...
"whom say ye that(I AM?)"

Jesus Christ,Word of God,Immanuel-GOD WITH US!.
Gave the the keys to the rock(Those CALLED:GIVEN,Revelation of I AM ,the ROCK Spoken of by the Holy Prophet Isaiah)The Gates of Hell will not prevail against IT!(SEED) Gen3:15
ALL scriptures support this...MATT16:16

God SPOKE End from Beginning...
Isaiah17:10
you have forgotten God ,your SAVIOR,REMEMBERED THE ROCK,YOUR STRENGTH....
challenges ANYONE WHO CALLS THEMSELVES THE ROCK...

Is 44:6-23
...let HIM STAND UP AND SPEAK....
...Is there a God or any ROCK BESIDES ME?
Jesus Christ,Immanuel-GOD WITH US.

AMEN.
---char on 11/19/08


nicole, those keys are this- That Jesus is the Messiah- Son of God sent by God to save ALL who cry ABBA, FATHER!
History is written by the winners.
The RCC says what they want to be true doesnt make it true, sister.
Unless Jesus literally said "Peter, here are the keys, they are yours and only yours" that statement is open for the Holy Spirit to interpret.
We arent to lean on man's understanding of the Word, but God's.
Men got together and voted and said this is what we will believe and tossed out the rest. This is what happened at the Nicene Council in 325 and it wasn't Holy Spirit inspired either.
This is also when the direct line from Peter was established, too. All of this man-made, not God-made.
---miche3754 on 11/19/08


I really do not see how Mt. 16:13-19 pertains specifically to the Catholic Church, or any corporate church. The church consists of those living true to God's Word. In all honesty, do you think that any of the corporate churches (which are all basically very similar in nature),was Jesus' vision of what He wanted in His church...full of bickering, following traditions more than following His word, gossip, haughtiness and on and on? I can see Jesus enjoying the company of those at an 'AA' meeting much more than the company of those in most churches. Jesus loves those who are humble, seeking Him, and turning from sin. Hopefully He will chastise those who 'in vain worship Him, since they are teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.' (Mt.15:9)
---Anne on 11/19/08


nicole, I wasnt speaking specifically of you, sis.
I was speaking in general of the RCC.
They take the Words of God and twist them to mean something that isnt true because they want control.

If you know God's word doesnt say these things about the RCC, then why do you continue to claim RCC?

Sister, I am trying to get you to understand that the Church of Christ isnt any denomination, or doctrine.
The true Church, is in you, Where Christ lives at when you get saved. It isnt physical, it is Spiritual.
The Spirit God gave you when you were conceived and the Spirit of Christ(Holy Spirit) commune. They live together inside you. Thats what makes you Christ's Church.
continued...
---miche3754 on 11/19/08


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Anne, I will try, thanks.
Christ is the Savior and is the One who makes intercession for us to the Father?---miche3754

Why can't you understand we believe JESUS is the SAVIOR and the ONE WHO MAKES INTERCESSION for us to the FATHER.
All Prayers are sent to Jesus.

You act as if only Jewish People are to be saved.
Remember Jesus SENT Them to all the NATIONS
Matthew 28:19
Be careful, by trying to prove your point you make a direct statment against Jesus.
Matthew 16:19
"I GIVE YOU THE KEYS TO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN."

You want me to believe your words or Jesus?
So, if Jesus decides to give keys to a man who isn't of the house of David, He can.
He is God, the seed of the David.
---Nicole on 11/19/08


Miche3754, judgemental? You just judge me.
You claim I love the RCC more than God.
You think and so you accuse me of putting Peter in Jesus' place.
It is you who is judging. Listen to your own advice.

We never said that the words of RCC is in the Bible. You want to see it before you make a move. But, even if you saw the words you would make an excuse saying that the RCC in the Bible isn't the same as today.

The RCC claims Peter as the 1st Pope. She has traced Benedict XVI back to Peter.
Even the Evil World acknowledges that.
Orthodox Church as well bring that.
They just deny that the Pope has the Authority over the other Apostples.
But, they didn't say the Pope at that time 1054 wasn't connected back to Peter.
---Nicole on 11/19/08


Miche~Thanks for the excellent point you make.
---Anne on 11/19/08


luke, thank you brother for that information.

I ask though, don't you realize that passage is talking about Jesus, not Peter or the RCC or any Popes?

Peter was not of the House of David, and neither were the Popes. Jesus is of the House of David. The seed that will destroy death and bestow everlasting life. No Human can give this.

Christ could not have passed any type of keys to any Human.
Key means everlasting life. Only the Messiah can give this and only the Messiah can carry these "keys".

Why is it you just can't seem to understand that Christ is the Savior and is the One who makes intercession for us to the Father?
---miche3754 on 11/19/08


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Lee & Nicole~I know you are both zealous and have much knowledge about different things, but remember the words of ICor.8:1 "We know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies..." It is fine to discuss religious concerns and to search for the Biblical answers especially for the purposes of learning, growing, and edification, but sometimes it is easy amidst searching for truth, to start tearing each other apart and to forget the most important commandment of love for one another. Let's all try a little harder to treat one another as we would want to be treated... with respect, kindness, & understanding.
---Anne on 11/19/08


You simply pontificate what you believe and that without given rational answers to any that would have questions.

As an educator, I guess that I am wasting my time in a dialogue with you as you are not teachable, having been totally immunized against the truth as found in any good book including the Bible.
---Lee1538 on 11/18/08

Yes, I reject any rational answers that are againsts the Bible.

When you can give logical answers, I am all ears.

---Nicole on 11/18/08


Miche, Key is found in several places in the Bible. Here's the other important one (compare to Matt.16:17-19):

"In that day I will summon my servant, Eliakim son of Hilkiah. I will clothe him with your robe and fasten your sash around him and hand your authority over to him. He will be a father to those who live in Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. I will place on his shoulder the key to the house of David, what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. I will drive him like a peg into a firm place, he will be a seat of honor for the house of his father. All the glory of his family will hang on him: its offspring and offshoots - all its lesser vessels, from the bowls to all the jars." (Isaiah 22:20-24)
---Luke65 on 11/18/08


nicole,
I am Christian, I know not only because of Grace but also with the fruit I bare.
So sister, As I have said time, and time and time again.
Where does it say In Gods Word that to be saved you Have to be RCC?

Not a single place can you find this because MEN proclaimed this not God. I am not judging you. I am sure you are Christian, but can you please refrain from being your usual judgemental self because God is always watching and Each one will be judged as you judge, sis.
---miche3754 on 11/18/08


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nicole your are right about one
You said this-Face it! Jesus is Lord and His Word is FINAL!
but one passage in an entire Bible does not make the RCC the only way. They are not the way at ALL.
Jesus is the way this spoken by Jesus.
Not Peter, not RCC, not any other denomination. None of those "ways" will get you to Heaven.
I believe what God says not man or woman.
---miche3754 on 11/18/08


Nicole - *Heard of? He is book smart, but lacks common sense?

One that has common sense is one that asks questions and unlike what you do, seeks rational answers- something obviously you have not even be able to do.

You simply pontificate what you believe and that without given rational answers to any that would have questions.

As an educator, I guess that I am wasting my time in a dialogue with you as you are not teachable, having been totally immunized against the truth as found in any good book including the Bible.
---Lee1538 on 11/18/08


Miche, there are many churches around the world, but only one Church - "MY Church" (Matt.16:18). Paul wrote his letters to 7 churches. In Revelation, John wrote to 7 churches. 7 is symbolic for complete. These 7 churches represent the whole, one universal ("Catholic") Church, united in "one faith" (Eph.4:5). There is "one flock and one shepherd" (John 10:16), and Christ appointed His shepherd on earth - Peter: "Tend my sheep" (John 21:16). Why? Because He was ascending to the Father! Did you know that the "gospel is veiled" (2 Cor.4:3)? Trust Jesus, the Word of God: "THE Church" is "THE pillar and foundation of the truth" (1 Tim.3:15). Blessings.
---Luke65 on 11/18/08


Miche3754, you also know History.
If you were Christian you were in the RCC.
Even Historians state this.
Not, until 1054 was there 2 Christian Churches.
Western and Eastern.
But, the Biblies were still the same.
No one in the Eastern or Western Churches tried to change or take away from the Bible.
Only until the 16th Century did one man dare to mess with the Bible. Luther!
He left and started another with a different Bible.
From him are born 38,000(and growing)Protestants demoninations.

WHO said only Peter can Heal?
Don't change the Bible and act as if Jesus was giving all the 12 keys as He did to Peter. Peter was the only one who know the question.
Why go online and ignore the Gospels?
---Nicole on 11/18/08


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nicole,
We are disputing this because in all things of Christ, The Bible backs one scripture up with another.
In the Darby translation of the Bible, there is only on scripture that says what you are talking about with Peter and the keys- Matthew 16:19.
Yes, I read the Catholic Bible(online right now til I can afford the book version). All I have to do is search Key and that is all that comes up.
Where else does it say this in the RCC Bible?
There is not another scripture to back it up. Christ does say many times He is in authority. Christ gave authority to heal, etc to all 12 disciples not just Peter.
---miche3754 on 11/18/08


if you knew church history, you would not find a hint in the writings of the early fathers that would indicate any authority was handed downward via Peter to the bishops of Rome.---Lee1538

Heard of?: He is book smart, but lacks common sense?
Look at your statement.
Who has the Authority?
It is not Jesus?
Where is the teachings of Jesus located in? THE BIBLE!
So, why would I search early father's writings for the handing of authority to Peter?
Wouldn't one search in the Bible?
Why skip the Bible?
Why would one need more than just the Bible to know the source of Authority?

Stop looking for other data to counter attack Jesus' Words in Matthew 16:13-19!
Face it! Jesus is Lord and His Word is FINAL!
---Nicole on 11/18/08


luke, I agree, God use Man.
I was just saying no one else should get the credit but God.

I thought this question had already been answered? Catholic children do read their Bibles in a controlled environment(School, and Church).

How many times are we going to dispute something that is stated through the entire NT?
Churches(physical), there were MANY,.
Jesus chose his disciples, sent them out two by two, healing, doing miracles and establishing Gods Word and Will throughout the world. It is still going on today.
Nowhere are the words "Roman Catholic Church", in the Bible, not even the forbidden books(forbidden by the RCC, by the way). So maybe we should read them to get the fullness of God.
---miche3754 on 11/18/08


Lee:-True you read for 40 years BUT did you comprehend His word His interpretation? if so why are you in such disagreement with The simple EDICT in Matt16:13-19.You compare Gods WORD with Your own Man made elucidation, listening to men left in Purgatory with their feet dangling in suspension in Purgatory.and you say you read the bible 15 times in 40 years, how did you miss 2Macabees 12:45--15 times!!was it the Bible .Remove your Bias and shame the devil.
---Mic on 11/17/08


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Lee1538: "The Roman Church had virtually nothing to do with that movement"

The Catholic Church was integral to the Solidarity movement - ask them!

"Communism was a system that clearly would not work and eventually destroyed itself."

Yes, "eventually" it would have. But then again, they might have taken the world with them...

"If those days had not been cut short, NO ONE WOULD SURVIVE, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened." (Matthew 24:22)

And yes, Miche, this was or will be the work of God, but God uses man in His plan.
---Luke65 on 11/17/08


Nicole - *You don't know the book I am speaking about, because you refuse to read the whole book. The book I am talking about is the BIBLE!

The Bible is a book I have read from cover to cover at least 15 times during the past 40 years. Plus, I have taken several college level courses in it. Sorry but you are one that lacks knowledge of the Bible - and I would surmise its Author as well.

If you had even a cursory knowledge of the Bible, you would find virtually nothing in it that even hints Rome was to be the supreme church to rule over others.

And if you knew church history, you would not find a hint in the writings of the early fathers that would indicate any authority was handed downward via Peter to the bishops of Rome.
---Lee1538 on 11/17/08


Nicole - I don't know whose books you are reading but there is virtually no evidence..The bottom line is that you will not be able to convince anyone as all your statements on this subject are devoid of anything factual.---Lee1538

You don't know the book I am speaking about, because you refuse to read the whole book.

The book I am talking about is the BIBLE!
The part you hate are called THE GOSPELS
MATTHEW, MARK, LUKE, AND JOHN.

You know the part you have 'black out' in your Bible between the OT with it's last book called Malachi and the book of Acts.

Buy a new bible. Leave it alone and do not mark it.
Read the Gospels and you will see the birth of the RCC in Matthew 16:13-19.
OPEN YOUR EYES!
---Nicole on 11/17/08


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