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Thief In Paradise For Three Days

Jesus said to the thief on the cross, "today you will be with me in paradise" I have been taught that Jesus desented into hell and after three days he was risen. Then He told Mary not to touch him because he had not risen yet. So, he was not yet in paradise yet, right?

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Also take a really close look at Phil. 1:21-23. "To live is Christ, to die is gain." Read the Greek. God has assured us that even life in our immaterial spirit body after death is far better than this present life, for Christ is there. Paul says that it is "Far better."
---Rick on 7/12/08


I also hope that you take a really close look at I Thess. 4:13-17. Read it slowly and you'll see that God will bring them with him when he returns. Those that sleep in Jesus refers only to the body sleeping, for the soul and the spirit are with Him. (II Cor. 5:8).
---Rick on 10/18/07


Eloy: If your response is all you have to offer to my call for mutual forebearence, may God help us!
---Pierr7958 on 8/16/05


Pierr, when God commands me to Boldly Preach, and a someone wrongly judges me and wrongly tells me that i am proud and judgmental, and that i should conform to his preferred mode of preaching, i must say, No and Never, i will always obey God rather than man. If my words smart you, then let them turn you to the truth. Christ was crucified because they did not want to hear him either, but wished that he was less "judgmental" as you say.
---Eloy on 8/15/05


We still arguing that comma thing. Do you think that maybe Jesus was planning on hanging on that cross for weeks. Would it be better if he said "next Tuesday, if we are still hanging around here I will say to you,,,, truly you will be with me in paradise. In any context we try there is only one way that passage makes any sense. Please guys, put the comma where God intended it to be and get on with your lives.
---ken on 8/15/05




Eloy: You still did not get it! May be this call for mutual forbearence will help
There is nothing in the Scripture stressed as much as our need to walk as becomes a Christian, called by Christ to His kingdom.
What should motivate our walk:
lowliness/humility OPPOSED to pride!
meekness: unwilling to provoke!
to be not easily provoked or offended!
There is one Christ in whom most of us believe. There is on heaven we all aim for. Let us therefore be of one hear also!
---Pierr7958 on 8/14/05


All these portions of scripture link together as a continuous story line:

Luke 16:19-31
Eph.4:8-10
I Pet. 3:19
II Pet. 2:4
Jude 6
And if you wish to get the full story, start with Gen. Chapter 6.
---Rick on 8/14/05


Pierr, When i quote straight undiluted judgment from scripture, the Word tells us that the flesh which is enimity against God will always rebell against it. i will never sugar-coat my words to the detriment of others, if my words hurt, it is for good and never for evil. To few my words are pearls of great price, but to many they are rocks of offense and stones of stumbling. Pierr, compare my words with scripture and you will see that i am from God, so try not to shoot the messenger.
---Eloy on 8/14/05


If one looks at the greek and manuscripts on this verse you would find that the comma is not placed in the right place with this that Jesus said: Place the comma before the "today" and take that as Jesus was making his statement that day and not to say on that day the theif would be with him in paradise. Or to say: today I say unto you" or I say unto you today, I shall see you in paradise.
---kirk3998 on 8/14/05


Eloy: One thing I wish you would note from my dialogue with Rick is that no matter how much we disagreed he always remained non-judgmental. I wish I could say that about you but I can't right now. I will say that you are "funnier" than I!
---Pierr7958 on 8/13/05




Rick, i know what you mean. Those who do not have the mind of Christ are blinded to the plain truths in the scriptures, not only so, but they are also deceived by the Deceiver into believing untruths as though they were true. And your right until they are in spirited, they cannot receive the truths from the Holy Spirit.
---Eloy on 8/13/05


Pierr, When Jesus personally visited me he was wearing a white caftan gown and a bishops miter, then he turned and departed through my "closed" living room window, gown and all.
---Eloy on 8/13/05


Xanthi, contact me at my e-mail and I will give you the information.

Rick7753
---Rick on 8/13/05


(continue)
Remember that Paul said, "Eyes have not seen, ears have not heard, niether has it entered into the heart of man, the things that God has prepared for those who love Him." In other words, beyond our imagination. That is a thrilling thought!
---Rick on 8/13/05


Pierre, I cannot tell you how spiritual beings can wear robes since I've never actually been to the other side. But we know that we live in a 10 dimensional Universe. We, as carbon based life forms can only detect 4 dimensions. Height, width, legnth, and time. Beyond our 4 dimensions all kinds of things are possible. In our new bodies we will be able to move at the speed of thought as just one example.
---Rick on 8/13/05


Rick, how can we get your books when we are in the U.K?
---Xanthi on 8/13/05


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Rick: On 1st resurrection I am leaning your way for 1-4 so far!
On Mat 10:28 we are at the Tri/Bi impass! Please explain how your bodyless souls wear white robes?
---Pierr7958 on 8/13/05


Eloy, you are correct. I've explained this point numerous times. For some unknown reason it's not getting through.

I'm considering not even debating this issue with Cliff on the blog that's similar to this one. He will not be able to spiritually discern this until he becomes a Christian. That really makes me sad.
---Rick on 8/13/05


4. (continue)
Life has been bestowed upon the believer's body at the second advent of Christ. As Paul stated it: "This corruptible must put on incorruption (aphtharsian), and this mortal must put on immortality" (athanasian).
---Rick on 8/13/05


3. (continue)
A simple study of any Greek lexicon will show you that eternal life and immortality are not identical nor synonymous.
In II Tim. 1:10 we see this concept. In this verse "life" (zoen) and "immortality" (aphtharsian)are clearly distinguished.
---Rick on 8/13/05


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2. (continue)
Let me explain: Eternal life is vastly different from "immortality." Although immortality will be bestowed upon the believer at the resurrection, in this life he already possesses "eternal life," a spiritual quality of existence which will at length be united with the physical quality of incoruptibility which the Bible speaks of as immortality, and "we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is" (I Cor. 12; I John 3:2)
---Rick on 8/13/05


1. Pierre, now to adress your question on immortality. We've already seen from numerous other blogs that I have posted, that Paul clearly expected to be with Christ immediately. You are right about immortality not taking place until the bodily resurrection.
---Rick on 8/13/05


(continue)
This verse clearly indicates that it is possible to kill the body without killing the soul (psuche). Jesus is saying, there is something about you which those who kill you [in your physical being] cannot touch.
---Rick on 8/13/05


You are confusing 2 separate accounts: 1- When he died his spirit went to paradise and his body remained on earth, afterward, 2- When his body rose from the dead and talked to Mary, then he took his body to paradise.
---Eloy on 8/13/05


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Pierre, as for the scripture at Mt. 10:28. It seems to me you are missing the clear wording of the scripture. In Mt. 10:28 "psuche" is clearly being used to designate the part of man that continues on after physical death. It is not being used simply to refer to the "whole person." If that were the case, then psuche (soul) would die when the physical body is killed.
---Rick on 8/13/05


Pierre, thanks for the interesting question about the resurrections.
First Resurrection:
1. Resurrection of Christ-(2,000 yrs. ago)
2. Many O.T. Saints-2,000 yrs. ago (Mt. 27:51-53)
3. Dead in Christ--(I Thess. 4:13-17)
4. The Two Witnesses-(Rev. 11:3-13)
5. Martyred Tribulation Saints-(Rev. 7:9-17)
6. Old Testament Saints-(Dan. 12:1-2; Isa. 26:17)

Second Resurrection:
1. Resurrection of the wicked-(Rev. 20:5)
---Rick on 8/13/05


Thanks for the support Ken. It seems the true Gospel is in short supply these days. This is a sign of the end times.
---Rick on 8/13/05


Rick,
Following this blog I am delighted that there are still true Gospel believers out here. As for your books, I have already ordered all three and look forward to reading them. Thanks for being a spotlight of truth in an otherwise dark dreary night. I have learned so much following this blog. Thanks again and may God bless both you and your ministry.
---ken on 8/12/05


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Rick: 1st resurrection--multiphases?
Where in the BIBLE does it say that?
---Pierr7958 on 8/12/05


Rick: Paul's desire is indeed to be with the Lord and this as a complete (D+B=S) resurrected human being. When? Immediatly?
No!! 1 COR 15:52-53 when "the trumpet shall sound...mortal must/will put on immortality"!
When? When Jesus returns very soon!
---Pierr7958 on 8/12/05


Rick: "Soul...
"psuche" translated "soul" in this text but "life" in 40 other texts.Maint. of B-Consistency leads to sub of soul with LIFE.NB.Here, the word "soul" not only refers to "life" but "life eternal." Warning: Be not afraid of those who can only "kill" physical life but do respect God who can "kill" both. Still no soul living outside of the body!
---Pierr7958 on 8/12/05


Pierre, the first resurrection is not limited to one event. The first resurrection is a quality, or type of resurrection. A resurrection of the just. It is actually a series of resurrections.

"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power..." (Rev. 20:6)
---Rick on 8/12/05


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Ann5758
I almost feel relieved that you "called" me on this one. I told Rick that it was a "close" argument. There was a sunset but it was not natural. Did it still mark FR>SA change? I am going to look into it some more. Welcome to the dialogue! Pierre
---Pierr7958 on 8/12/05


The 9th hour is 3 in the afternoon. That's not typical sunset time. The sky darkened because of the Father's sorrow..not because of a normal setting of the sun. It was not the hour of the Sabbath yet.
---Ann5758 on 8/12/05


Pierre, I have countered your arguments with a ton of scripture. I just used the Greek to drive home what the scriptures are saying. Basically the same as in English, only more emphatic.
---Rick on 8/12/05


As far as the soul leaving the body, Jesus taught this fact. MT. 10:28:

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul..."
---Rick on 8/12/05


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Pierre, I don't think I can say it any better than Ann. The scripture is very clear. As far as Jesus and the thief going to Heaven that day. We didn't say that. We said they went to Paradise. The darkness you refer to lasted from the sixth hour (noon) to the ninth hour (3:00 PM). This darkness was supernatural. Jesus was placed on the cross on the third hour (9:00 AM).
---Rick on 8/12/05


Ann5758
Read my 8/8 and 8/9 blog to Rick.
In a nutshell: The death of Christ.
Time: 6th to 9th hr.
The sun is setting slowly.
At the 9th hr. Jesus dies as "the sun stopped shining." Luke 23:46
It is FR at sunset, Jesus is dead but the thieves are still alive. Conc. They died after sunset, sometimes later, early on SA, in my opinion.
---Pierr7958 on 8/11/05


Pierre, where did you get the idea that the thief & Jesus did not die on the same day? It was coming up to the Sabbath, and it was against Jewish law to have a dead body hanging on a tree or cross when Sabbath started...also, anyone touching a body on the Sabbath would be ceremonial unclean, and this practice was avoided. That's why they broke the thieves' legs...so they would die quicker, & they could get them all down from the crosses before Friday sundown, in accordance with the Jewish laws.
---Ann5758 on 8/11/05


I believe you are right, our understanding of the bi-partition vs tri-partition of man is the sticking point.
---Rick on 8/11/05


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Glen & Rick: On TODAY, You will be with me...
I have at least two arguments showing that that it was impossible for both of them to be in heaven the same day because:
-Jesus tells us that He rested in the tomb 3 days 3 nights + 3 days
-Jesus did not go to heaven until at least the third day
-Jesus and Thief did not die on same day and could therefore not be in heave on same day.
What BIBLICAL evidence do you have that these are faulty reasonings?
---Pierr7958 on 8/11/05


Pierr
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
This is not a parable, nor is this allegorical. In fact you are just one Arch-Angel away from finding yourself in a Kingdom Hall. Please put the Watchtower down and read the Bible.
---glen on 8/11/05


Rick: Your explanation of man being an eternal being but not immortal until the return of the Lord leads me to the following question. If as you say "immortality" is granted to man at the time of the resurrection how is it then that you id. the martyred saints as "killed after the resurrection"? It just does not add up!
---Pierr7958p on 8/11/05


Rick: About soul leaving body at death.
My belief: It is impossible for accordiheshng to the Bible, the soul cannot exist outside of the body! The word "soul" is translated from the Hebrew word "nephesh"
118 times in the OT as "LIFE" It is never used to denote an immortal or undying part of man.
---Pierr7958 on 8/11/05


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Rick: "Triune vs Biune (I am starting to like this term[?!]) keeping us apart but still friends! I would have liked it better if you had countered my evidenciary arguments with textx from th Bible rather than from a grammatical viewpoint because as far as Greek and Hebrew is concerned I took only one year of it before I stwitched from the Seminary to School of Eduction/Graduate where I earned degrees in Lit. and School Administration and so you lost me a bit along he way. TBC
---Pierr7958 on 8/11/05


This is a nice question. The thief was taken to paradise same day. Christ is not limited by space and time, so the fact that He was in hell for three days does not mean the thief was not with Him. If you are in paradise, you are with the Lord, simple. Also, Christ did not resurrect into paradise but to heaven. He went to heaven to show Himself to the Father. All who are in paradise are with Him, amen.
---Emmanuel on 8/11/05


I do not believe that you will see Jesus Christ again in the flesh. In your mind you see him, but flesh is enmity against God. He said that to the criminal because the criminal was also being crucified and he did go down to the paradise of hell, Christ went there, too.
---gregg8944 on 8/11/05


Does the soul leave the body at death? Yes.

"And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni; but his father called him Benjamin" (Gen. 35:18)
---Rick on 8/11/05


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Pierre, I guess I should clear something up about my beliefs that may be causing you some confusion. I believe that man is an eternal being right now. However, not immortal until the return of the Lord.
---Rick on 8/11/05


Maybe you would be interested in my book:

"Doctrines of Demons: Exposing the Darkness"

This book covers JW theology, among others. Or maybe you would be interested in my book:

"The Road to Apocalypse & The Coming Anti-Christ"

Both books are available through Gospel Truth Ministries in Cincinnati, OH.
---Rick on 8/11/05


Pierre, your understanding of the makeup of man is common JW theology:

dust + spirit = soul

They also believe anihilation for the wicked (non JW's). They deny every scriptue that teaches eternal destruction in The Lake of Fire.
---Rick on 8/11/05


4. Literally, "my desire is to depart and to be with Christ." Paul's one desire has a twofold object: departure and being with Christ. If departure did not mean his immediately being with Christ, another construction would have been used. This makes it impossible that soul sleep was in the mind of Paul since he desired to depart from his body and to spiritually enjoy the presence of the Lord.
---Rick on 8/11/05


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3. The preposition "eis" plus the definite article "to" shows "true purpose of end in view." - the strong desire which causes Paul's dilemma. Both infinitives analusai and einai) have one constuction. They are both used with one definite article - so are one thought, one grammatical expression:
---Rick on 8/11/05


2. Verse 23 is a series of coordinate statements tied together by the conjunctions "kai and de." The phrase "to depart and be with Christ, which is far better" (eis to analusai kai sun christo einai) is grammatically devastating to the "soul sleep" theological position.
---Rick on 8/11/05


1. I guess you are referring to Phil. 1:21-23. In verse 21 Paul says that to continue to live is Christ and to die "is gain." Since Paul was already enjoying fellowship with the living Christ, what would be gain by death or unconsciousness? His fellowship with Christ would end and Paul would merely go to sleep until the resurrection. This argument violates both context and grammar.
---Rick on 8/11/05


We see in Rev. 7:13 one of the elders (Church) asking, where these people came from. In verse 14 the answer is that they came out of the great tribulation. Although the book of Revelation is filled with symbols. ALL these symbols are interpreted either in the book itself, or they elude to one of the other 65 books of the Bible. So when the text makes sense, seek no other sense.
---Rick on 8/11/05


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You ask about SAINTS, SOULS or SOUL OF SAINTS? All three of these terms would not be in conflict. These are the souls of martyred saints. They were killed after the resurrection/Rapture. We see them again in Rev. 7:9. The Church is not allowed to ask for vengence, but these are not members of the Church.
---Rick on 8/11/05


Pierre, please understand, I'm not criticizing you at all. I see the problem now with your understanding of Rev. 6:9:10. You are a histrocist, and I am a futurist. I really thought you were taking a premillenial aproach to Revelation. Futurists see this as not symbolic, although there are many symbolic messages in Revelation.
---Rick on 8/11/05


Glen:
He meant exactly what He said, that when He would come again (2nd coming) He would remember the thief and have a place waiting for him!
Next,read my "close" explanation about how they did not die on the same day + if they had gone to heaven, JCh whbeen there FR and the thief on SA! Next, read what Jesus says about his resurrection>3 days in the grave, + admit that what He says about his stay is more important than what I, you and Rick say!
---Pierr7958 on 8/10/05


Pierr,
Put the comma back and slowly walk away. What do you really think Jesus meant when he spoke to the thief.
---glen on 8/10/05


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GLEN; I don't think that you are being very fair when you allege that I am taking liberties with the HOLY Scripture. I am not adding or taking away, only giving my opinion on what I believe the Bible says and does not say and in what litterary form and NOT because I want to twist the truth!
---Pierr7958 on 8/10/05


Rick Immaterial spirit body
You write:"God assures us...Christ is there.
Where did God gives this assurance? I really don't know. Give me the ref. next time, please. Thanks, Pierre
---Pierr7958 on 8/10/05


Rick & Glen & Co Clarification
"The scripture you use to promote doctrine of SOUL SLEEP-- I was not aware that I was promoting this doctrine. Let me make it clear:
I believe a LS exist only as a combination of the "DUST" + "spirit" At death, the two are seperated > THE SOUL CEASES TO EXIST!
The JW also do not believe that man is an eternal being:Let me make it clear: I believe that righteous will be made immortal at the 1st resurrection and be eternal beings. TBC
---Pierr7958 on 8/10/05


Rick: Personification
May be because I am a lit. backgrond rather than theology, I have aqn easier time to see symbolisms and other figures of speech such as PERSONIFICATION, when objects are assigned personal attributes. EX. GEN 4:9-10 tals about Abel's blood crying out from the ground. Similarely, in this sense, the lives of the martyrs are crying out for vengeance!
TBC
---Pierr7958 on 8/10/05


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Rick & Glen & Co Just for discussion's sake:
If the martyrs, were real beings and if the altar were in heaven, HOW DID THEY GET THERE considering that the 1st resurrection would not already have happened? How could they still be unhappy+ tortured? How come, contrary to Christ's instructions to pray for their ennemies they are instead demanding vengeance for their persecutions?
If on the other hand they were "souls" without bodies HOW COULD THEY WEAR ROBES??
TBC
---Pierr7958 on 8/10/05


Rick & Glen & Co "souls under the altar"
Rick, you write "these are tribulation saints,souls under the altar"...literal beings" Please, which are they? SAINTS, SOULS or SOUL OF SAINTS? With the answer I would be better able to comment. TBC
---Pierr7958 on 8/10/05


Rick & Glen & Co-- The 7 Seals + Rev 6:9-10 "revisited"
I see here ref. to a (history) book with 7 sections, eac sealed. The book represents the experiences through which the Chch. passed from the beginning of the Christian area to the 2nd coming of Christ USING SYMBOLS/FIGURES to illustrate scenes + events. Ex. the white horse, with his rider going forth, represents the early Christian going into all the world with the gospel message of salvation.
TBC
---Pierr7958 on 8/10/05


Rick & Glen & Co-- The 7 Seals + Rev 6:9-10 "revisited"
I see here ref. to a (history) book with 7 sections, eac sealed. The book represents the experiences through which the Chch. passed from the beginning of the Christian area to the 2nd coming of Christ USING SYMBOLS/FIGURES to illustrate scenes + events. Ex. the white horse, with his rider going forth, represents the early Christian going into all the world with the gospel message of salvation.
TBC
---Pierr7958 on 8/10/05


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Rick: I am going to continue this dialogue for just a little bit longer, and I want it to end on the same high note it has been conducted so far, but I sense more and more that as we have both stated, the TRIUNE vs BIUNE questions is going to keep us from agreeing in the end but remaining friends even so. TBC
---Pierr7958 on 8/10/05


I've read Rick's book about judgement day, and it will really open your eyes.
---missy on 8/10/05


Since we are taking such liberties with Gods Holy Scriptures can someone tell me if John 3:16 is to be interpreted allegorically, or thought of as just a parable. I was thinking that a parable usually starts with a word or two that clarifies that it is a parable. But in reading this blog I find that any scripture that interferes with doctrine can be interpreted anyway that you want. Please explain this to me.
---glen on 8/10/05


If there is no retribution for sin, many people just live the way they want. There is nothing gained, nothing lost. What kind of God would not be just enough to judge sin. But with Christ, He already paid this price for us. This is the danger of this doctrine. That is what made it worthy of debate. It's just another trick of the enemy. I pray God will open the eyes of your understanding. I'm glad that we can still be friends regardless of what we believe to be true.
---Rick on 8/10/05


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I don't believe that anyone who embraces the doctrine of soul sleep is in danger of not being saved because of it. But, if others believe this and think there is nothing to fear by rejecting God, they will lose there soul for all eternity (Rev. 14:11). This is a tragedy that many JW's are in danger of. At least 4/5 of those that believe Watchtower theology are not active members, because they think there is nothing to fear. They believe their soul will cease to exist.
---Rick on 8/10/05


Pierre, I have written a book on this subject. It is titled:

"Judgment Day: Appointment With Destiny"

Maybe you should read it and see what you think. It's all about life after death. If you are interested, you can order it through Gospel Truth Ministries on the internet. Or go to my web site: Omega Chronicle.

I can't give the web sites, but it should be easy enough to figure out.
---Rick on 8/10/05


II Cor. 5:8 says that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Look closely at the Greek. the word present means immediatly present. We already know that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God (I Cor. 15:50). But we will all be changed at the resurrection when our bodies are raised and glorified (I Cor. 15:52).
---Rick on 8/10/05


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