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Baptized For Dead Family Member

Is it mandatory for a person to be water Baptized to make it in to the kingdom of Heaven? If so can a familly member be baptized for a familly member who has passed?

Moderator - No and no. The first is UPC and Church of Christ doctrine. The second is LDS or Morman doctrine not Christian doctrine.

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Is it mandatory for a person to be water Baptized to make it in to the kingdom of Heaven?

Absolutely not but the church would be in error not to obey the Lord's command to baptize those who enter into His church.

If baptism were essential for salvation, then why did not the Apostle Paul emphasize it?

1 Cor 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

It is the gospel message that brings salvation, not baptism.

Ro 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
---leej on 10/3/10


"How about "thou shalt not bear false witness?" HappyLDS

HappyLDS, this is obviously a subject that I have a real sensitivity to but I mean you no disrespect personally.

That said I will leave your claim of dishonesty for others to determine.

You have suggested that this view was not LDS doctrine. We would have to ask then, why was any prophetic change necessary in 1978? If blacks were always viewed equally why was an adjustment necessary?

To the others on this thread:

I apologize for directing this discussion off-topic and for dominating the exchange. Racism in the name of (any) religion is a God dishonoring, anti-Christian aberration.
---scott on 10/3/10


HappyLDS:

If a church leader is fallible and capable of error - yet declares that his own writings are on par with scripture (which Brigham Young did) - this is dangerous presumption on his part. This is how most cults get started - when some preacher places his own words on par with the Word of God. Whenever one hears something like this, one should run away as fast as possible.
---StrongAxe on 10/3/10


Blacks/Priesthood "Not sure anyone [knows] except for God." HappyLDS (2)

Continued-

The Gods rejected Lucifer's plan resulting in three spirit 'groups'. 1. Good spirit children. 2. Spirits siding with Lucifer. 3. The 'less valiant' spirits in this war.

Regarding this third group Apostle Bruce McConkie states:

"Those who were less valiant in pre-existence...had certain spiritual restrictions impose[d] on them during mortality...known to us as the negroes. Such spirits are sent to earth through the lineage of Cain, the mark put upon him for his rebellion...a black skin...the negro are not equal with other races..." Mormon Doctrine, 527-28, 1966 orig. ed., changed in the current ed.
---scott on 10/3/10


Happylds, as to your question, there is only one way to be saved, that is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ works on the cross and His resurrection. There is no other way but one way. Baptism with literal water saves no one. It is an act that man does obeying the commands of Christ. Only genuine believers obey the commands of Christ. "My sheep hear My voice and they follow Me" And we are not saved by our works or merit's. When you are brought to life by the power of the Holy Spirit you are spiritually baptized into One body, the body of Christ. You are cleansed from all of your sins, through One sacrifice, the sacrifice of Christ, the blood of Christ cleanses you. And are imputed His righteousnes of Christ forever.
---MarkV. on 10/3/10




"I am not terribly concerned...Why [blacks weren't allowed into priesthood] I don't know and am not sure anyone does except for God Himself." HappyLDS (1)

Perhaps this LDS teaching contributed to the negative view of blacks:

LDS scholar Bruce R. McConkie:

"When the plan of salvation presented...and the need for a Redeemer was explained, Satan offered to come into the world as the Son of God and be the Redeemer. "Behold here am I, send me," he said...But as always, he was in opposition to the full plan of the Father, and so he sought to amend and change the terms of salvation, he sought to deny men their agency and to dethrone God". Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 193

Cont.
---scott on 10/3/10


StrongAxe - I thought I had made the answer to your question perfectly clear. I have said repeateded that the leaders of our church are human - capable of human error. I have also said that they are capable of their own thoughts - just as you and me.

Scott - did your source happen to include that statement that Brigham Young made in regard to the statement he made. I suspect that they didn't. You can look it up in JoD 13:264

There are numerous remarks made by various church leaders in regard to when doctrine is doctrine. Since Brigham Young appears to be your favorite, I will provide his quote regarding the matter in the next post - part II
---HappyLDS on 10/3/10


"Blacks in Priesthood" Happy LDS (3)

"There is a reason why one man is born black and with other disadvantages, while another is born white with great advantages. The reason is that we once had an estate before we came here...Those who were faithful in all things...received greater blessings here, and those who were not faithful received less...Every man had his agency there, and men receive rewards here based upon their actions there, just as they will receive rewards hereafter for deeds done in the body. , The Negro, evidently, is receiving the reward he merits."

Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:61, 65-66
---scott on 10/3/10


Scott - there is a lot of evidence to suggest that Brigham Young was concerned with the treatment of black women by their white slavemasters. I won't provide it because it's lengthy and let's be honest - you aren't really interested in anything that doesn't portray him to be a hardcore racist anyway.

As for the references I made regarding the Bible - I said that the words black and white seemed to be used SYMBOLICALLY...I never said they referred to any tribal ethnicity.

Do you imagine I said these things or do you write it and hope that no one calls you on it? Assuming you believe in obeying the commandments...how about "thou shalt not bear false witness?"
---HappyLDS on 10/3/10


HappyLDS:

So which was it? Was Brigham Young a man whose pronouncements were the infallible Word of God from on high through his prophet that people had to obey? Or were they the fallible and corrupt words of a man that should be treated like the words of any other man? You can pick one or the other, but you can't have it both ways.
---StrongAxe on 10/2/10




HappyLDS

References to light and dark in God's word have nothing to do with tribal ethnicity. And there is no evidence (scriptural or within the Mishna) that Jews ever understood those references to literally refer to the genetic or biological color of a man's skin. Let alone a curse by God directed at any particular tribe or group.

The BOM & POGP refer to dark/black skin as a curse. This notion is found nowhere in the bible.

(BTW your Job citation refers to the malignant boil [Heb., bishchinra'] that Job was inflicted with. See Job 2:7. Most translations include "and have fallen off me" or "peels". NKJV, RSV, ASV, NIV).
---scott on 10/2/10


"The Presidents of our church are men and capable of their own thoughts and ideas...these discourses are exactly that and NOT doctrine." HappyLDS

"I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of man, that they may not call Scripture."
Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, 13:95


"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be."
Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, 10:110
---scott on 10/2/10


Scott,
I've already conceded that many of our leaders may have held the same racist views that were prevalent in those days. I don't know what else you would like me to say. It is a fact though that Joseph Smith ordained Elijah Abel into the Priesthood and that he fought to abolish slavery. As for the eventual ban on the Priesthood, I'm not sure anyone really knows - except for God Himself. Again, I am not terribly concerned with the past, I'm more interested in the future. As for the term "prevailing doctrine" - I don't believe it ever was. Blacks have always been welcome in our church though they weren't allowed the Priesthood until 1978. Why? I don't know and am not sure anyone does except for God Himself.
---HappyLDS on 10/2/10


MarkV - I'm glad you're back but a little disappointed that you didn't answer my questions. Should you be interested in Scotts sources - it appears he is using Mormonism 101 or One Nation Under Gods. Neither are terribly concerned with the whole truth - each uses out of context quotes or misquotes to push their agenda.

If you are interested in finding the truth I hope you will go to a Mormon source. Yes, we do believe that God continues to communicate His secrets through prophets - just as He always has. Sometimes God changes His mind (as He did in Biblical times) according to the behavior or needs of the people. Some are offended by this - some are comforted. I'm in the latter group.
---HappyLDS on 10/2/10


It seems that there was a recent recall of ALL copies of the Journal of Discourses to headquarters in Utah.
Of course, a standard Mormonoid ploy is to claim that the JoD is NOT one of their "standard works."
---Cluny on 10/1/10

Can you give me your source Cluny? I didn't get the memo and searched the internet for evidence of a "recall".

I refer you to the fact that the Presidents of our church are men and capable of their own thoughts and ideas...these discourses are exactly that and NOT doctrine. For this reason these are not part of our standard works. Disparaging names or statements like "standard Mormonoid ploy" only show your unwillingness or inability to be intellectually honest.
---HappyLDS on 10/1/10


"it isn't a "prevailing doctrine". HappyLDS

That's a difficult case to make when, by your own admission, you "haven't researched it much."

"Because of his wickedness he [Cain] became the father of an inferior race. A curse was placed upon him and that curse has been continued through his lineage... Millions of souls have come into this world cursed with black skin...Moreover, they have been made to feel their inferiority and have been separated from the rest of mankind ...we will also hope that blessings may eventually be given to our Negro brethren...notwithstanding their black covering emblematical of eternal darkness."

Joseph Fielding Smith, The Way to Perfection, 101-02
---scott on 10/1/10


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Scott and Cluny - I wonder if either of you are nearly as concerned about the "racism" in the Bible? It seems that the use of words like white and black are used to symbolize good and evil. Examples: Daniel 12:10 / Job 30:26-30 / Joel 2:6

The quote you both sight from Brigham Young is taken from the middle of a discourse. I guess the "recall" didn't make it to the website I checked. I think "black like the devil" is figurative and is symbolic for evil. Just my opinion.
---HappyLDS on 10/1/10


Scott, strong stuff you wrote about the Mormons concering the black man or negro by Joseph Smith. I've never studied their doctrines or had the need to but your post brought some light on their teachings. At first they are told something to be true from God, and later they change their stance and something else is of God. Never really giving the Truth to anything. doctrines and believes changing through time. Almost as the Jehovah W. who made so many predictions that never came true. Only someone's ideas and bias's.
---MarkV. on 10/1/10


Scott - you neglected to include the remark Joseph Smith made preceding the one you chose to quote. It was this:
"They came into the world slaves, mentally and physically. Change their situation with the whites, and they would be like them. They have souls, and are subjects of salvation. Go into Cincinnati or any city, and find an educated negro, who rides in his carriage, and you will see a man who has risen by the powers of his own mind to his exalted state of respectability. The slaves in Washington are more refined than many in high places, and the black boys will take the shine off many of those they brush and wait on." I'm pretty sure I know your source - out of context quotes are their specialty.
---HappyLDS on 10/1/10


First of all the "organization" setting them self up as Christs Doctrine & others are not has quite an "Ego". Anyone setting them self up as we are "right" and others are "wrong" should be avoided. The problem with this thinking is they limit their understanding of the Gospel, living prophets, and Gods Word explaining this.

"Baptism" is an essential step in salvation. Christ was baptized. Those who didn't have this chance to be baptized "Can have someone baptized on their behalf" This is mentioned in Bible, Book of Mormon, D & C. >
Read/pray about this and let the Lord give you the answer vs someone with an "Ego.
---Brian on 10/1/10


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Scott - it isn't a "prevailing doctrine" and no, I am not disturbed by it. If you want to assume I'm a racist - it's your right to make assumptions whether they be right or wrong. This morning I thought about something that will in no way give you the satisfaction you desire but is still true just the same.

I believe it is doctrine that those who do not hold Priesthood and choose not to enter into eternal marriage will still be exalted into the Celestial realm but will be"ministering angels". At that time blacks were not allowed to hold the Priesthood so it's possible that Elder Peterson was eluding to that doctrine. I don't know, nor do I profess to know what others have in their heart.
---HappyLDS on 10/1/10


\\"But let them apostatize, and they will become gray-haired, wrinkled, and black, just like the Devil."
Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 332\\

It seems that there was a recent recall of ALL copies of the Journal of Discourses to headquarters in Utah.

Curious, isn't it?

Of course, a standard Mormonoid ploy is to claim that the JoD is NOT one of their "standard works."
---Cluny on 10/1/10


"If you are trying to label Mormons as the only people with racist views at that time - good luck."HappyLDS

Certainly not. However, are you saying that the racist views that Mormons held were simply a reflection of the times and not based on the words of the prophets?

Then in 1978 when those views were officially changed, was that simply because the contemporary view of racism was different or was it because the prophet actually had a revelation from God?

"Then Peter opened his mouth and said: "In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him." Acts 10:34, 35 NKJV
---scott on 10/1/10


agree with the Moderator on his answer to all questions and i have also an answer as to trying to help the dead and here it is
Luke 16:19-31 (cant post all scriptures)
[22] "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. [23] In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. [24] So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.[26] And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
---Lea on 10/1/10


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"As for what the "doctrinal views" were - I honestly haven't researched it much." HappyLDS

That's fascinating and more than a little disturbing (IMHO). A prevailing (150 years) doctrinal view of the 'cursed' black man that lasted until 1978...and you haven't researched it much?

"But let them apostatize, and they will become gray-haired, wrinkled, and black, just like the Devil."
Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 332

"Had I anything to do with the negro, I would confine them by strict law to their own species, and put them on a national equalization."
Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 270, History of the Church, 5: 218
---scott on 10/1/10


Actually Scott- I was suggesting that Elder Peterson was stating the prevalent views of many people at that time. If you are trying to label Mormons as the only people with racist views at that time - good luck. As for what the "doctrinal views" were - I honestly haven't researched it much. I know that Joseph Smith ordained black men into the Priesthood and that he ran for President with a platform of abolishing slavery. I believe in continuing revelation and that God will reveal what is relevant when we need it.

Nothing I say will satisfy you so I will just leave it at that.
---HappyLDS on 10/1/10


I Cor 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

This is the scripture which I believe supports baptism for the dead. StrongAxe - I absolutely disagree with you. I do not believe this is talking about "everyday" baptism. As far as it not being taught anywhere - there are many writings that were not included in the Bible, my guess is that there are many more that haven't been found. As I've already said - I believe the practice was restored through Joseph Smith. I have participated in it and have no words to describe what I felt. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.
---HappyLDS on 10/1/10


Let the dead take care of the dead.

The purpose of christians is to populate the Kingdom of God. Now, how do you suppose a christian can convince the dead to repent of their sins, believe, get baptised so they may populate the kingdom? Our mission as christians is to be sure that the living get to heaven and that we must edify, encourage, and comfort the living to stay on the right path toward the Kingdom of God.

Do an online KJV bible search for "one another," "each other," "encourag," and "comfort." Can you do any of these to the dead?
---Steveng on 9/30/10


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HappyLDS:

You have proven my point! There is NO EVIDENCE AT ALL that the practice was taugth by ANYONE, ANYWHERE. So we are left with the possibility that either
1) Paul was OK with some new bizarre unheard of doctrine (unlikely), or
2) He wasn't talking about a new doctrine at all, but was talking about the normal everyday baptism - if Jesus was just dead and not resurrected, then we are all vainly baptized in the name of the dead, and not the living Christ.
---StrongAxe on 9/30/10


HappyLDS,

Hostility? Hardly.

Are you suggesting that the apostle's comments did not reflect the Mormon 'doctrinal' views of the time? That the 'faithful negro' would not be a celestial servant?

No doubt, then, there are numerous quotations (in print) by other LDS leaders of the day rejecting and repudiating such shockingly racist comments by a respected apostle.

Maybe one?

I'm surprised that your anger would be directed at me for asking the question, rather than at the ones who created the history of racism that you now have to defend.

Sorry if I've struck a nerve.
---scott on 9/30/10


StrongAxe - just reread your post...why would Paul be okay with a false doctrine or a practice that wasn't taught? I'm not trying to be obnoxious or rude - only posing a question.

Cluny - I didn't mean to offend you by calling the "we vs. they" arguement lame. Still, it is at the very best bizarre. Paul is clearly using the practice of baptism for the dead to support the doctrine of resurrection. I can't see anyway around it. Forgive me but I don't think I'll waste my time looking up your answer in regard to people who die without knowledge of Christ. I'm satisfied with the knowledge I have. Thank you anyway.
---HappyLDS on 9/30/10


Scott,
First, that essay was written in 1954. Second, our leaders are human and capable of thinking for themselves. Third, and most importantly - unless something is declared doctrine by our first Presidency - it's NOT doctrine. Was racism prevalent in the 50s and 60s - absolutely. This "teaching" has been repudiated - it is not doctrine. Can you make the claim that racism existed only in the LDS church? Mormons have moved on - maybe you should too. I'm sorry for being so rude but your hostility is really unfounded.
---HappyLDS on 9/30/10


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Happy LDS,

Can a black man or woman be baptized by proxy? If so, when they find themselves in heaven, will they be slaves on all three levels (Telestial, Terrestrial and Celestial) or just the Celestial?

"Think of the Negro, cursed as to the priesthood...the negro who in the pre-existance lived the type of life which justified the Lord sending him to earth in the lineage of Cain with a black skin and possibly being born in darkest Africa- if that Negro is faithful all his days, he can and will enter the celestial kingdom. He will go there as a servant." LDS Mormon apostle, Mark Petersen, BYU, Provo, Utah, August 27, 1954.
---scott on 9/30/10


HappyLDS:

What you suggest is the first possiblity I mentioned - people in Corinth doing just what you say. Yet:
1) Nobody anywhere else was recorded as having done this
2) There is no other evidence of even the Corinthians doing it
3) Nobody ever taught them (or anyone else) to do it.

If this is vital in saving many by proxy, why did God wait 1800 years to reveal it, allowing all 2 millena worth of sould (whose birth records were not preserved) to be lost?

Besides, Jesus did not say those who are baptized will be saved. He said those who BELIEVE AND are baptized will be saved. Even if proxy baptism worked, it would be futile for unbelievers. Since most believers are likely be baptized anyway, what is the point?
---StrongAxe on 9/30/10


\\Cluny - "they vs. we" really? I intend no disrespect but I think that is probably one of the more lame explanations. If it works for you I guess it will do.\\

Dismissing sound doctrine as "lame" is a typical device used by those who refuse to accept it, but if it works for you, I guess it will do.

**2. What happens to people who (through no fault of their own) died without hearing of Christ?**

I've answered this question elsewhere. Look it up.
---Cluny on 9/30/10


Tommy - never said baptism gets you into heaven - did say that Jesus says a person must be baptized to enter the Kingdom of God. Things like obeying the commandments, etc. are also part of the equation in determining where we end up in eternity.

StrongAxe - OR Paul could've asked EXACTLY what he meant to ask...why are people baptizing for the dead if they don't believe the dead will be resurrected? Wouldn't that be yet another "possibility"? Unless of course it interferes with what you believe, right?

Cluny - "they vs. we" really? I intend no disrespect but I think that is probably one of the more lame explanations. If it works for you I guess it will do.
---HappyLDS on 9/30/10


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Cluny - you claim it was being practiced by the heretics in Corinth...exactly how can you make that case? What is your reference? Did Paul tell them they were doing something wrong? Did he tell them to stop? I certainly didn't see it.

I still haven't received answers to my questions:

1. Where does it say baptism ISN'T necessary? Did Jesus take it back?
2. What happens to people who (through no fault of their own) died without hearing of Christ?
---HappyLDS on 9/30/10


This misconcption that baptism gets you into heaven should be made Clear.Baptism removes in the case of babies original sin.This enables the child to pass from this world to heaven IF the child should die before the age of reason. Thanks. ---Emcee on 8/17/05
Where does the Bible give ANY support for this? Baptism removes NOTHING from anyone, infants or adults, ONLY the blood of Jesus Christ removes the sin stains. Baptism is an outward expression of an inward action already enacted by the Holy Spirit. We can and should add nothing to this.
---tommy3007 on 9/30/10


HappyLDS:

There are two possibilities here:
1) Corinth was practicing something totally new that nobody taught, nobody else had ever heard of, Paul was fine with, but was never mentioned in the Bible nor in any other early church writings.
2) Paul used a particular combination of words that was slightly different than usual to describe a practice that was already being done in every church.

The second seems much more likely. And again, it is very dangerous to develop a key doctrine based on a mere three words said in passing. The Bible constanly says that any truth is established in the mouths of 2-3 witnesses. All key doctrines are either mentioned multiple times, or at least described elaborately, not just alluded to.
---StrongAxe on 9/29/10


\\his VERY important doctrine was revealed to Joseph Smith\\

No, it wasn't. Joseph Smith was a false prophet.

Baptism for the dad was first practiced by those heretics in Corinth and elsewhere who had broken away from the Church Christ founded.

That's why St. Paul asked why "THEY were baptized for the dead," and did not ask why "WE are baptized for the dead."
---Cluny on 9/29/10


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StrongAxe - the point is that it was apparently being practiced by the Corinthians at that time. Paul doesn't tell them they shouldn't be doing it - he asks them WHY since they have stopped believing in the resurrection. It is common for many to deny reference of just one scripture when they have no understanding of how/why something is done. Personally I am grateful that God is both consistent AND just.

Curious also as to why Christ preached to the Spirits in prison - what was the point?

Catherine - please provide scriptural evidence that declares baptism is unnecessary. Actually- if anyone can do so please feel free!
---HappyLDS on 9/29/10


Even if this phrase means what you think it means, surely if it were as vitally important a teaching as you claim, SOMEONE would have actually spoken about it or actively taught people to do it? StrongAxe

Actually - the Bible says that God will reveal His secrets through the prophets. This VERY important doctrine was revealed to Joseph Smith and is actively taught to LDS people. You may choose not to listen, you may believe it's heresy...I most certainly do not. Like I said - I believe that God is both consistent and just. I believe that Jesus meant it when he said we must be baptized AND I believe that a way has been provided for all mankind to receive it!
---HappyLDS on 9/29/10


One more thing in regard to this ordinance...those who are being taught in the spirit world and have a baptism performed on their behalf DO NOT have to accept it. We are not forcing anyone to become Mormon after death.
---HappyLDS on 9/29/10


In 1 Cor 15, the "baptize for the dead" passage is NOT talking about the use of the Christian Church, but of a heretical group that had already broken off.

St. Paul did not say, "Why then do WE baptize for the dead..." but "Why then do THEY baptize for the dead."

Since the passage in context is talking about the future Resurrection of all, a just paraphrase would be, "Why do you deny that the dead will be raised? Even those heretics who baptize for the dead believe in the Resurrection."
---Cluny on 9/29/10


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HappyLDS:

Jesus never taught that anyone should be baptized for the dead. None of the apostles did either. Neither did Paul - he merely mentioned that phrase one single time, in passing, when he was talking about something different.

Even if this phrase means what you think it means, surely if it were as vitally important a teaching as you claim, SOMEONE would have actually spoken about it or actively taught people to do it?

It is dangerous to develop any kind of major doctrine based on something one person says in passing and takes less than half a verse in the entire Bible.
---StrongAxe on 9/29/10


No! it's not mandatory. Jesus might take you on to heaven before you get a chance to be baptized. Public testimony. If Jesus has chosen you, well, that's what's important. Be lead by the Person of the Holy Spirit in all things. It is not biblical to have anything to do with dead people. [they are God's business] THEY ARE ALREADY, EITHER IN HELL OR HEAVEN....If in hell it is too late for them, anyways.
---catherine on 9/29/10


"They had their time on earth to make the decision of death or eternal life. And whatever they chose will be what they get."
by MarkV

Just curious Mark - what happens to people who were never given the opportunity to hear the Gospel or to be baptized? Too bad for them? Again, Jesus said we MUST be baptized to enter the Kingdom of God - if there was an exception made, please let me know where it is.
---HappyLDS on 9/29/10


"Christians are baptized in the name of Jesus. As such, they are baptized "for the dead" since Jesus himself died. If he stayed dead and were not resurrected, we would all ultimately do the same, so our baptism in his name would be totally pointless." by StrongAxe

I am a Christian and I was baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. As for your explanation regarding baptizing the dead - it makes absolutely no sense. I'm not surprised because I've heard many such explanations offered and have yet to see any that can spin their way around what Paul said. He was clear in his question - why baptize for the dead if the dead don't rise at all? I don't know how you can interpret that to mean anything else!?!
---HappyLDS on 9/29/10


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There is no baptism by proxy: do not be concerned for the dead, but be concerned for those that are still alive. The living people need to get baptized, the Lord Jesus Christ Commands this. Also he himself was baptized and we are to follow him and fulfill all righteousness, for no disobedience can enter into heaven. If a soul rejected Christ and then died, then they are sealed in their sin. But if a soul had a heart for Christ but they died before they were able to get baptized then they will be saved.
---Eloy on 9/29/10


Chris and HappyLDS:

Christians are baptized in the name of Jesus. As such, they are baptized "for the dead" since Jesus himself died. If he stayed dead and were not resurrected, we would all ultimately do the same, so our baptism in his name would be totally pointless.

Paul was not referring to a new practice (baptism on behalf of some other dead person) that has never been mentioned in the Bible before or since (nor ever mentioned in any early Church writings either). He was referring to the same baptism that is mentioned everywhere else.
---StrongAxe on 9/29/10


Happylds, you might fill good in doing what you are doing to those who are dead, but it is you who feels it not the one's who are dead. They had their time on earth to make the decision of death or eternal life. And whatever they chose will be what they get. You cannot get anything for them anymore.
Listen to the Moderator, that the doctrine is one of LDS's and others who are not considered Christian as far as doctrine. Water may clean your external body, but not clean the heart. All the works man does can never bring you salvation. Only Jesus blood can clean you of your sins, and only the Spirit of God can bring you life. Literal water has no power of itself. Spiritual water does, because it comes from the Spirit of God.
---MarkV. on 9/29/10


happy lds, born of water is a natural birth. born of the Spirit is a spiritual birth.
---shira3877 on 9/29/10


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The person that called this practice "sick" might do well to really think about that statement. As someone who has been baptized on behalf of family members who have died, I can tell you that it is an awesome feeling and one that I look forward to again soon. We care about the salvation of those who have died without the opportunity to hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We believe that they are being taught in the spirit after death. Baptism is a physical ordinance and must be completed here - this is why we do the work for them. I don't know how anyone could call it "sick" - I think it's beautiful to offer something to someone that they can't do for themselves.
---HappyLDS on 9/28/10


Jesus said that one must be "born of water" in John 3:5. I've always understood that to mean baptism. Jesus says in no uncertain terms that it is NECESSARY to enter the Kingdom of God. If there is a scripture that says otherwise - please post it. As for Baptism for the Dead not being a Christian doctrine, I respectfully disagree. It appears that the early Christians performed this ordinance without understanding why. Paul asks them in I Cor 15:29 why they do it if they don't believe in the resurrection. Paul doesn't say they are wrong for baptizing for the dead - he asks them why do it if the dead aren't going to rise. If someone has another explanation I would certainly love to hear it.
---HappyLDS on 9/28/10


Moderator>>>Well, he said it all. and I AGREE, AGREE, AGREE.
---catherine on 8/15/10


Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

0: How does he know that Jesus is Lord?
1: How did he know that this man dying next to him was the messaih?
2: How did he know that this man next to him would die and yet inherit a kingdom?
3: How did he know that this man dying next to him has the power to get him into the kingdom after his (thief) death?
4: the theif knew they would all die, how did he know about the ressurection?


Have you considered the posibility that he knew a lot of theology?
Have you considered thathe MAY have been following Jesus at some point intime?
Have yo considere dthat he may have even been baptized by John the Baptizer?
---francis on 8/13/10


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Jerry
The thief, that was under the law.

Grace did Not begin until Jesus raised & went up from the mount.
We are now under grace & Jesus said Mark 16 v 16.

As far as being baptized for a dead person , NO.
Psa.49 v 7.
---Lawrence on 8/13/10


We do not know if the theif ever made it to heaven. The resurrected Christ said to Mary that He had not yet ascended to His Father (which is in Heaven?). Christ, on the cross, promised the thief that he would be with Him "today" in paradise, yet 2 days later it appears that Christ had not yet gone to heaven. Sorry but the theif does not prove that you can get to heaven without baptism. John 19:17 and Luke 23:43
---stephen on 1/14/08


Paul said,"Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all. Why are they then baptized for the dead." It appears that Paul is using baptism for the dead as a proof that the resurrection is real, else why do the baptisms. He nowhere says that these types of baptisms are inappropriate, but instead seems to lend them credence by using them as basis for his logical proof. 1 Cor 15:29
---Chris on 1/14/08


Baptism was important enough that John the Baptist baptized and Christ was baptized and Christ's apostles baptized. Its importance was taught in multiple scriptures:john 16:16,Luke 7:30,john 3:5,Acts 2:38, Acts 10:48, Titus 3:5, 1Peter 3:21. These scriptures show that it is commanded and that it is necessary to be saved. Who am I to argue that these scriptures are wrong.
---Doug on 1/14/08


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Maria-Water baptism DOES NOT get one into heaven.


Not according to Jesus "Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of" water and the Spirit"(Jhn 3:5)
---Ruben on 1/10/08


Water baptism DOES NOT get one into heaven. You MUST accept and believe in the sacrifice of God's son for our sins. Must live and walk daily in God's laws and accept the gift of salvation he gives.
NO, you can not be baptised for someone else.
Everyone hears the gospel and makes thier own choice to except it or not. We can only make the choice for ourselves in our own hearts as to whether we will follow Christ or not.
---Marla on 1/10/08


The moderator's comments are right on. The first catagory would also include Catholic. Neither is scriptural.
---Bruce5656 on 4/25/07


baptism is an outward show you have accepted Jesus Christ as Savior, that you have been baptised into the church or body of Christ,,
if someone were in the hospital dying, accepted Jesus then died, they would go to Heaven, Jesus said He is the way the truth and the life". 'believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved,,
---michele on 9/6/05


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I am a United Methodist and would like to clear up any misconceptions about infant baptism in the UMC. We do not believe that this act removes sin. It is a ceremony in which the parents/family members of the child and the church promise to raise the child as a Christian. Later on, the child can claim for himself the gift of grace, salvation through Jesus Christ.
---annie on 8/21/05


Scriptural proof :matt3v15;Ezekiel36;25-26Matt28;19-20Moderator we all know circumstances alter different states & stages.People who rebell do not believe,but this does not change the word of God.
---Emcee on 8/21/05


Tom, you are soooooooooooooo right..My bad!!! And you know, I knew that too..guess I was suffering from a brain cramp at the time. Thanks so much for the correction. Blessings.!!
---Ann5758 on 8/18/05


Jesus got baptised to fulfill all righteousness, and we follow him. He Commands us to Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature, and he that believes AND IS BAPTIZED will be saved; but he that believes not will be damned. Mark 16:15,16. The thief on the cross did not reject baptism, else he would not be in paradise, he just could not get baptized for he was nailed to the cross. And No, you cannot vicariously get baptized for a dead person.
---Eloy on 8/18/05


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Ann,
It was Nicodemus he was talking too. The rich young ruler didn't follow because he didn't want to give up his earthly treasure.
---Tom145 on 8/17/05


Jesus was talking to the rich young ruler when He said that line. The young man was talking to Him about physical birth.."How can a man enter a second time into his mother's womb?" Jesus told him, unless there is a physical birth (water) and a spiritual rebirth, then he cannot enter heaven. Being born of water has nothing to do with baptism. It is the physical birth.
---Ann5758 on 8/17/05


susan- In John 3:5 "Jesus says truly,truly, I say to you, unless one is born of WATER and the spirit he CANNOT enter the KINGDOM of GOD. 3;22 After teaching on baptism, they went into Judea where the disciples were baptizing.
---ruben on 8/17/05


No way, on both counts. The theif on the cross never had a chance to be baptised, and yet he was told by Christ, he would be with him. While baptisem is great, and something a Christian should do, if possible, it's not a requirement to go to Heaven. Baptisim is really an expression of an outward testimony concerning an inward transaction, (Accepting Christ as Savoir.) And it is also a promise that as Christ was resurrected, we will also be resurrected.)
---WIVV on 8/17/05


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This misconcption that baptism gets you into heaven should be made Clear.Baptism removes in the case of babies original sin.This enables the child to pass from this world to heaven IF the child should die before the age of reason.2ndly Baptism for the FIRST time removes ALL sin, but does not gain you entrance to heaven.as there are always on going transgressions in the humah being,however, if he/she should die immediately after being baptised he/she will go to heaven as he/she is cleansed of all sin.

Moderator - Please show scriptures. Thanks.
---Emcee on 8/17/05


The thief on the cross was not baptized, yet he will be in heaven.
---Jerry on 8/17/05


As we cannot believe for others, we do not baptise for others too.

Our belief in Chirst is what is saving us and not baptisim.
---Seble on 8/17/05


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