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Did Adam And Eve Incest

Ok, God created Adam and Eve. They had sons and daughters I assume. So where did it go from there? Were they incest?

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Genesis clearly states that Cain's wife was not a daughter of Adam and Eve. Cain left home, and traveled to a very far away land, which the Bible cites as "the Land of Nod," which the Bible states was located east of Eden.

Cain was Adam's son, but his wife was not Adam's daughter. In fact, the Bible is abundantly clear in stating that she was not only unrelated, but that she was from a foreign land.

Only those who are very ignorant of what the Bible actually says would ever take the position that Adam's sons committed incest.
---Purusha on 10/7/10


Thank you, Anne, I enjoy yours too.

Tina,

God had a very special plan for the human race, He wanted us all to be related. We weren't to be just strangers living together on this planet, but family. So He created two perfect human beings, telling them to be fruitful and multiply. And did they ever. We only know the names of three of their children and the Bible doesn't say how many children they had, but according to those who study the genealogies, a lot. There were no distractions, so that helped, and they were strong, healthy people.

In our culture incest is illegal so we tend to think it's always been that way. God didn't make a law against marrying a close family member until it was no longer necessary.
---Laurie on 1/26/09


Laurie~ I like your thoughtful, caring, humble, and insightful spirit. It is very welcome and refreshing! Yes, we do need to be careful how we conduct ourselves and thank you for sharing those wise words! I enjoy reading many of your posts and hope you continue to contribute.
---Anne on 1/26/09


I have always wondered about how Kane met other people, after leaving Adam and Eve. Especially, if they were the first of the human species.
---Tina on 1/26/09


This is a lively discussion, and it's always interesting to get the atheist point of view, but we should be careful not to argue with him because unless God is drawing him that won't help. The Bible says if we seek Him with all our heart, we WILL find him, but this requires a sincere desire to know Him. God has to be the One to reveal Himself to him, and that's not in our control. We can present the best evidence we know for the existence of God and the truth of the Bible, but more than that God doesn't require us to do.

The way we conduct ourselves can be the best testimony we have, even more than the most persuasive argument.

I agree with Lee, there was no law against incest until the time of Moses.
---Laurie on 1/26/09




Warwick: "I do respect people but I do not respect any belief which undermines the word of God. If His word, & His Word are not absolute truth then what do we have?"

"I have always said I accept God by faith, but not blind faith. I have always said that neither microbe-to-man-evolution nor Biblical creation can be scientifically tested. They are both accepted by faith."

You have your faith and beliefs, and you don't respect anything or anyone that undermines that.



So, as I said, you cherry pick the "science" that supports you view, and disregard that that doesn't. It's all faith anyway.

Why pretend that's its anything other that what you chose to believe?
---atheist on 1/9/09


Anne - *But, like I said, I don't like it that school children are only taught evolution, when creationism is equally scientific in nature.

While we send our children to school to get an education, it is our responsibility of see to their Christian education - in the home as well as in the church.

The godless world system will seek every way it can, to draw us and our children away from the Lord. But there is much we can do in spreading the gospel to unbeleivers as well as our own children.

---Lee1538 on 1/8/09


Warwick~ I don't know, I don't really like to follow this discussion...it is just not my passion. I know it is your passion, but I believe it is a very controversial issue. In my personal opinion, how exactly the world was created does not seem to be a crucial topic, because I believe for the most part only God knows that answer.

I kind of like how Lee put it: "We have different interpretations about this topic...but actually it is truly non-essential to the Christian faith."

But, like I said, I don't like it that school children are only taught evolution, when creationism is equally scientific in nature.
---Anne on 1/8/09


Thanks Anne.

I do respect people but I do not respect any belief which undermines the word of God. If His word, & His Word are not absolute truth then what do we have?

---Warwick on 1/7/09


Warwick:"I understand this is complex but I have done my best."

I am sure you have. And so have I. But I acknowledge that if I were born with a Phd. in each of the sciences, could read 2000 words a minute, and never slept, that I could not keep up with the changing an evolving theories in science.

What you miss is the idea of science itself, not a process that has to provided all the correct answers, but one that continually improves, replaces or creates new theories (explanations) for what we see.

The job of science is not to provide absolute answers but provide explanations that are testable and methods that can be challenged if flawed. Evolutionary theory may have flaws, but that doesn't mean it's wrong.
---atheist on 1/8/09




anne - *Find some commonalities in your faith that give you comfort and guidance, that you not only share with other 'Christians' but with those of other religions and belief systems as well.

And that can be very difficult to do with someone that paints others as not being a follower of Christ just because of a difference of interpretation over something that is truly non-essential to the Christian faith.

Some on this forum simply like to be accusers but from scripture we can see who is the accuser of the brethren. Rev. 12:10

Frankly I believe this guy really has lost most of his credibility.
---Lee1538 on 1/7/09


Warwick~ I'm sure what you're teaching is fine...as long as you're teaching in respect etc. which I'm sure you are. I do believe evolution should not be the only scientific theory taught in school, and I think that is showing a lot of bias.

I prefer to study other areas of scripture, but you seem well versed and knowledgeable in this area, so I say go for it...you get my vote.
---Anne on 1/7/09


Atheist~ You care about what matters most, and that is what Jesus cared about most...and that is that we treat others with respect, decency, and love of all backgrounds and ways of life.

God also wants us to follow our consciences...everyone from every religion and faith has one. It's the desire to live in a way that we know is honoring of our Higher Power. I believe God sees deep inside the heart, mind, and soul of every person.

When I went to Bible college I was told only those who ever heard of Jesus would ever be in heaven. That is not the god I read about in the Bible. So I stopped going.
---Anne on 1/7/09


Atheist I'm sorry you took microbe-to-man-evolution that way. It's simply a term created to describe the idea of evolution, from the original life form, 'upwards.' It is used to differentiate between evolution of one kind of creature to another (e.g. reptile to bird) and natural selection/speciation which, though some describe as evolution, is in reality to do with changes within species, or the appearance of new species but does not lead to new kinds. I understand this is complex but I have done my best.

I have always said I accept God by faith, but not blind faith. I have always said that neither microbe-to-man-evolution nor Biblical creation can be scientifically tested. They are both accepted by faith.
---Warwick on 1/7/09


Anne arguing about small details is a waste of time but where do you draw the line?.

Would you defend the word of God against people whose views undermine the historical reality of the foundation of the gospel, or not?

Remember the NT writers are adamant that the events of the early chapters of Genesis are history and the reason that Jesus came. Is this foundation worth defending or not?
---Warwick on 1/7/09


Anne,

Stopping the bitter arguing would be a good start.

Might I suggest a next step? Find some commonalities in your faith that give you comfort and guidance, that you not only share with other 'Christians' but with those of other religions and belief systems as well.

For you and a few others here I don't think this will be much of a challenge. It will require that the view of 'god' is wide and not narrow, and that respect for 'sacred texts' includes more than the bible.

But from my perspective, arguing about whether hell exists or not and who's going there, from a 'Christian' or 'Muslim' perspective, is not important compared to the question of "Am I my brother's keeper?".
---atheist on 1/7/09


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atheist -*Warwick admits that neither the bible or evolution can be "scientifically proven".

If you got him to admit at least that much, you really have made a gigantic step forward and for his own benefit.

Now if you can just get him to admit there is really no way to prove scientifically or otherwise, that when the earth may not have been formed in six literal 24 hour days.

My younger son says he is an atheist but in talking to him, I trapped him several times. He, probably like you, says he really does not believe in a god, but in reality everyone does in one way or another. It is simply a natural thing every human does in believing in a god of some conception and at times being in rebellion.
---Lee1538 on 1/7/09


Atheist~ I don't know...how do you really prove anything? What difference does it make? I'm not the creator of the universe, but maybe some day He will show us how He made this unbelievably beyond amazing, beyond my human comprehension universe...and then again, maybe He won't. I'm just glad to be a part of it.

You might go ahead and believe the Bible is full of superstitions and inaccuracies. I can't make you believe otherwise. But I'll tell you, when you really get into the Bible, you start to discover how much sense it really truly makes. And then we realize God is a totally fair and just judge... who will judge us each accordingly. I don't think I'd be giving God too hard of time...we're pretty small next to Him.
---Anne on 1/7/09


Lee,

I am not forced to attempt to bring what is in the bible in line with the explanations of science as they evolve and change.

Warwick admits that neither the bible or evolution can be "scientifically proven".

What you, Naulon, and Alan have attempted to do is posit other interpretations of the "literal" word of the bible so that rational gap between the two can be closed.

I believe that the bible was written by men about a "god" they believed in, and it contains superstitions and inaccuracies along with lessons and wisdom people can learn.

The bible does not have to be the innerant word of "god" for it to give you comfort and guidance or be a basis for your faith.
---atheist on 1/7/09


Warwick,

You are really the trickster...

"...show that microbe-to-man evolution is in fact scientific reality."

You ask that I propose an experiment to prove that "microbe-to-man evolution", a phrase creationists created to mock evolutionary theory, is in fact a 'scientific reality', a dubious phrase with unclear meaning. Go all the way---quark to man evolution...

Your test of creation is simple: just believe 'god' spoke it into existence and you're done.

That you work so hard to discredit the developing explanations of science to protect your belief in the bible as the innerant word of 'god' questions your intellectual dishonesty.
---atheist on 1/7/09


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Lee ~ You're right...I'm all for sharing the message of why we hope in the Lord. we just have to be careful how we approach each individual person, and try to let the Holy Spirit be our guide.

Lol, I know exactly what you mean about trying to deal with others who believe we are 'lost' if we don't hold their exact viewpoint. That can be exasperating! I'll try and stay patient yet firm...and I'm sure you will do the same. Thanks for sharing!
---Anne on 1/7/09


Anne - while I agree that bitter arguing really leads nowhere, we may still give an answer to those concerning the hope we have in us.

1Pe 3:15 but in your hearts regard Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you,

And all too often we are dealing not with other Christians but with the pseudo Christian or the cults who believe they alone have the truth and condemn everyone else that does not hold their viewpoints.
---Lee1538 on 1/7/09


Lee you wrote 'I notice he now brands me as having non-biblical views.' Only because you do promote non-Biblical views.

'And can we really recognize him as a follower of Christ?'

That's somewhat ironic when you, though claiming to be Christian, reject what Jesus and the apostles say.

'I think he tries hard to get others to recognize him for his superior knowledge of scripture..'

I don't know if I have a superior knowledge of Scripture than you. But when did it become wrong to know Scripture well? I simply trust God knows, and always tells the truth.

And
'and for his special annointing that he claims to have received from God.'

Pray tell where I have claimed 'special annointing'?
---Warwick on 1/6/09


Atheist I've never heard 'thrashing' used in that context.

On a few occasions I've asked you to propose a test-using the scientific method of testability, repeatability and observability to show that microbe-to-man evolution is in fact scientific reality.

You've failed to come up with such a test. Don't be embarassed as no one else has either.

Microbe-to-man evolution is a belief system sold as scientific fact. What I've done is to show the lack of proof for evolution. I have nothing to be ashamed of.

Also I have repeatedly pointed out that Biblical creation, though supported by good evidence, also cannot be scientifically proven.
---Warwick on 1/6/09


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Atheist~ I don't like bitter arguing any more than you do. It is a shame that it often happens over religious type topics. I can only speak for myself. I try to 'tame my tongue', and I try to follow the Holy Spirit's leading. I also try to grow in God's wisdom and peace. I'm not perfect, but I'm trying with all my heart to stay on the right path and not live in hypocrisy.

The Bible tells us that these bitter attitudes of strife, deceit, evil-mindedness, backbiters, maliciousness,unmerciful ways etc. is to be expected (Rom.1:29-31), so it does not surprise me any. But you will find some great people on this site like Rod, Naulon, StrongAxe etc. who I believe are up-front and honest and have patient continuance in doing good.
---Anne on 1/6/09


Atheist - Warwick has the problem of denigrating anyone who happens to have more rational and logical interpretation of Scripture fearing that his weak faith would soon be destroyed. I notice he now brands me as having non-biblical views.

And can we really recognize him as a follower of Christ? I think he tries hard to get others to recognize him for his superior knowledge of scripture and for his special annointing that he claims to have received from God. Maybe he can be put on the same shelf with Ellen White who had all those visions or maybe with J.Smith and the golden plates?
---Lee1538 on 1/6/09


Incest is not incest unless it is defined by law. And there was no law concerning such a practice during those times.
---Lee1538 on 1/6/09


Warwick,

Thrashing: To beat with or as if with a flail, especially as a punishment.

Any explanation that the scientific method suggests that does not satisfy the bible story of creation as told literally.

You wrote in another blog:"I spent 13 years in full time evangelism in a number of western countries & witnessed large numbers of people become Christians after they came to understand they could trust the whole of Scripture. Some people seem able to be Christian while holding two opposing ideas in tension. However large numbers of people will not take Scripture seriously as they are convinced that evolution proves it wrong."

So you thrash science to create Christians.

Now I understand...
---atheist on 1/6/09


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Atheist Lee continues to squirm and play fast and loose with the truth because he knows admitting the truth of what Scripture says would destroy his non-Biblical view.

And a question for you: What 'science' is it that 'they' end up thrashing? I think you meant trashing?

Be a nice atheist and give me an answer.
---Warwick on 1/6/09


Rod~ I like the things you say and you seem to have a sound view on God and what it means to be a Christian. I'm enjoying the conversation you share between yourself and atheist since I believe you said you were once an atheist yourself. One of my dearest friends is an atheist/humanist, and I do understand many of his frustrations about religion, hypocrisy etc. Thanks for coming on this site and sharing your experiences.
---Anne on 1/6/09


Anne,

Again on the narrow view of god:

When you get into the area of science, most die hard believers find themselves stuck. They can't just take the good of their "god" and their interpretation of their favorite "sacred" text for comfort and guidance, but they have to reconcile their beliefs with what they think science is and says. They end up thrashing "science" or arguing interminably about whether the first few days were really 24 hours or billions of years.

In regard to creation, saying "god" did it is okay with me, as long as you don't believe "god" looks like me. That's a narrow view.
---atheist on 1/6/09


athesist: Very perceptive of some of "us Christians'" attitudes toward one another. Being a believer in Christ, some of these attitudes among "Christians" bother me also. I quoted "Christians" because we don't know who are and who aren't Christians.
Years ago I decided to follow Christ no matter how other people, who called themselves "Christians," conducted their lives. I am responsible for my own attitude and actions regardless how others conduct themselves. However, I do have to be careful not to fall into a destructive attitude myself.
Usually the different opinions one finds in these blogs are regarding fine points of creeds, not whether there is a God, and are we accountable to Him.
---Rod on 1/6/09


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Anne,


The narrow view of god: From the standpoint of civil society, as is seen here, is that with a little questioning everyone has their own "god". I see it here when two "Christians" go after each other for not believing in "hell" or "sin" in the right way for instance. It gets worse here for those that are Catholics, Mormons, or "god" forbid Muslims---worshipers of a "false god" for sure, destined to burn. Muslims of course say the same about Christians.

So rather than taking comfort and finding commonality in the good of each's "god" they find cause for mistrust and often an excuse for hostility.

More next time...
---atheist on 1/5/09


atheist: I don't spend time on the topic because it has been so long since I came across the information. What I was relaying was that Adam and Eve's children would have had incestuous relationships, but because they would have had perfect bodies, before disease and such degraded their biolological makeup, it would have been acceptable. Their offspring would not have had inbreeding problems. As time progressed, God gave the Law to restrict inbreeding problems. atheist, just curious of two things for now, (1) did you understand my short life story of searching for the truth and coming to the conclusion that Jesus is who He said He was? (2) are you searching for the truth or just pulling our chains? I hope the best for you.
---Rod on 1/5/09


Atheist~ Hey you're back, how's it going? I have some annoying questions for you below if you care to answer them. haha, But if you don't, that is ok too.
---Anne on 1/5/09


Rod,

Help me out here, what in the the world is are "pure biological humans"?
---atheist on 1/5/09


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This blog started as a question about Adam and Eve and incest of their children. A theory I heard was that they were pure biological humans, and incest was not a problem. So much for that, I don't know. Concerning atheist, I used to be an atheist, but it didn't make intellectial sense. For a person to know that there is no God takes as much faith or more than to say I know there is a God. So I became an agnostic, it made more intellectial sense, one just couldn't know. In my search for truth, I came to the conclusion Jesus was the greatest fraud that ever happened, or He is who He said He was.
---Rod on 12/30/08


Rob,

Your mistrust that Eloy might not be a true Christian underlines a concern I have regarding religions.

People of different faiths, or often, as here, people of the same faith see things differently and then go talking about false prophets, gods, doctrines, sheep in wolves clothing, etc. to denigerate the beliefs of others.

If you all believe in a loving god, then why can't you all get along?

And if there was a god, would he do better job at letting you know he was real and what he wanted, so you would not waste time and lives quarreling and often killing each other?
---atheist on 12/27/08


Athiest, I am a believer and follower of Christ.

I have my doubts that Eloy is a born again Christian.

I do believe that Eloy is an advocate of Satan and that Satan is the God that Eloy serves.
---Rob on 12/27/08


Atheist~ Thanks for your response. What type of narrow views of 'god'/God do you find to be really difficult to accept for you?

When you read the teachings and words of Jesus...does He seem like someone you can relate to for the most part? Does He more-less make sense to you? If you could meet Him, what types of questions would you ask Him? (I hope you don't find me to be annoying, I'm just interested in the way you think about spiritual/religious subjects.)
---Anne on 12/27/08


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Athiest:-Whilst you believe there is no God yet you speak as if you are god unto yourself.Condemning all who do not see the things the way you see believing in JFK,Carter NMK,and other humans like ourselves.That is your choice but it is said by the same God you do not believe in "Retribution is MINE He who does not believe will not have eternal life" But as you don't believe in Hell you will have a rude awakening, much to your detriment.I offer this thought For your contemplation in your quieter moments of Non hostility. I do not need a rebuttal.Learn the 4 letter word which escapes you at this moment.
---MIC on 12/27/08


.atheist, Since I am a born-again Christian, I am not able to receive your falsehood, but if you repent then I would be able to hear you. John 10:4,5.
---Eloy on 12/27/08


Atheist

Since you are an atheist, you are not able to receive anything that contradicts what you have chosen to believe, and instead of admitting that some of what you believe may be false, you will hear what you desire to hear, and believe what you desire to believe, and say whatever you desire to say.'

---Warwick on 12/27/08


"This thereupon know, that in final days will be desecrating speakers, slanderers, not lovers of good, mockers, having not the Spirit."
---Eloy on 12/27/08


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Atheist you wrote 'How can not believing in "absolute truth", a fabricated concept struggled with by philospohers and theologians for hundreds of years,be an "absolute truth"?

Your absolute truth is that there is no such thing as absolute truth, absolute truth in itself.

As Dr Don Batten wrote 'Postmodernists deny that objective truth exists. But how can they know that their claim, truth does not exist, is true if there is no such thing as truth? So postmodernism is self-refuting: its absolute truth is that there is no absolute truth, its absolute ethic is that all ethics are relative, and its objective worldview is that all worldviews are subjective- a quagmire of suffocating, soul-destroying subjectivism.'
---Warwick on 12/27/08


Eloy,

Since you are a born-again Christian, you are not able to receive anything that contradicts what you have chosen to believe, and instead of admitting that some of what you believe may be false, you will hear what you desire to hear, and believe what you desire to believe, and say whatever you desire to say.
---atheist on 12/26/08


Warwick:"Atheist you don't believe in absolute truth-an absolute truth in itself. How futile to argue with you, as we cannot, by your admission, know whether you write truth or not!"

How can not believing in "absolute truth", a fabricated concept struggled with by philospohers and theologians for hundreds of years,be an "absolute truth"?

Again, Fromm: "...the history of thought is the history of an ever-increasing approximation to the truth. Scientific knowledge is not absolute but optimal, it contains the optimum of truth attainable in a given historical period."

I, you, and we can never know if we or the other is saying the truth, only that we all, at best believe that we are.
---atheist on 12/26/08


Anne,

Yes, I would agree that if there is a god he would be seen in "all the amazing world/universe around us".

But that definition is far more universal than the narrow views of "god" created by believers of almost all religions. I refuse to so narrow my view, and I find more wonder in the natural, than any "supernatural" "god" fabricated by men.

Not sure about the afterlife, or death. We will no doubt go on and become another part of the universe than we are now. I don't believe there is a hell.

There is another post for you below. I had two before, but only one got in...
---atheist on 12/26/08


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Incest, as we understand it, was not an illegal act UNTIL God said "don't do it that way any more" and He didn't say that for quite a long time so although Adam and Eve's children 'were fruitful and multiplied' with each other (brothers with sisters) there was absolutely nothing wrong with that.
---RitaH on 12/24/08


admire Carter, JFK, MLK, and Obama, because they "manifest" their beliefs in a way that is caring, loving, fair toward all of humanity, and do it in a way that is non-judgmental.
---atheist on 12/

You've removed all doubt. When the dogs above can fool you .....br>
Carter and JFK may be or have been loyal to their religion, whatever confusion of humanistic belief they held. mlk was a known two sided liar and his documents locked until our our grandkids are old. He couldn't hide all of his atrocity's. His fruit is the nut jackson. Obamanation is bottom of the mud pit. He swapped to any god that is convienant and belonged to anti-christ, anti-american organization for over twenty years.
Your heroes,your gods,wow.
---Trav on 12/24/08


Atheist you don't believe in absolute truth- an absolute truth in itself. How futile to argue with you, as we cannot, by your admission, know whether you write truth or not!

I can only reason the writer was referring to the gulf between animal and human reasoning.

Sadly we don't always apply our God-given reasoning abilities.

When used, human reasoning is brilliant. Animal reasoning in comparison is basic. How could such higher reasoning evolve?

Pollution is essentially a natural consequence of animal and human life, but Christians are commanded to be good stewards of everything God has given but we often fail in this.

The worst pollution I have seen is in the old USSR and China, atheistic countries.
---Warwick on 12/23/08


.atheist, you ask many questions, for one whom foolishly says that there is no God. Perhaps there is noone posting under the name atheist here either? But since I am a born-again Christian, I am not able to receive your falsehood. And until you get saved, instead of the truth you will hear what you desire to hear, and believe what you desire to believe, and say whatever you desire to say.
---Eloy on 12/24/08


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Warwick,

No.

Is "He spoke it into existence" and abosolute truth?

What this nonsense about "irrational animals"?

You don't seem to be paying attention.

Haven't you noticed that we have poisoned and polluted our planet without a rational thought about what we're to do about it? Oh, the absolute truth is "god" is coming back and all will be renewed?

Thousands die of starvation each day. Oh, the absolute truth is they're going to heaven?

We have used our best minds, technology, and innumerable resources to enable us to murder each other in more ways and greater numbers.

Is this an example of rational men? "Irrational" animals kill only what they eat...
---atheist on 12/23/08


Atheist I agree 'Scientific knowledge is not absolute', but I asked if you believe there is such a thing as absolute truth?

Joe boot's comments are very relevant 'Consider the atheist who has a universe devoid of design, ultimate purpose and without trancendent meaning or direction. It is irrational by definition. Since the human mind is part of this chaotic and chance universe, why should we trust the deliberations of our minds that have arisen from mindlress matter and irrational animals.' Creation Magazine vol. 31:1 p.19

How can anyone trust any thought or belief which is the end result(as atheist says) of millions of years of chance random processes. How does any atheist know their brain evolved correctly? They don't.
---Warwick on 12/23/08


I admire Carter, JFK, MLK, and Obama, because they "manifest" their beliefs in a way that is caring, loving, fair toward all of humanity, and do it in a way that is non-judgmental.

And they in no case used their faith, god, or religion to justify the denigration and hatred of those who believe differently, or lived diffently than they themselves live.

The bible contains wisdom and beauty, and quite a lot of brutality. And also a character called "god" whose pride is only outstripped by some alive today who think they know better what "god" would do and what is right and wrong, than the rest of us.


Fear not, if there is a "god" you could face him, and he would be pleased.
---atheist on 12/23/08


Eloy:"...I am from God..."

Really now...Are you a prophet? Perhaps you are secretly "the second coming"?

Your intense humility aside...

How many people do you think are in the world, who do believe in a "god", believe that their actions and beliefs are guided and mediated by prayer or other communication with their "god"?

But...call their god another name, have chosen a different text for their spiritual source, perhaps do pray before a symbol or idol to focus their thoughts, and might conclude differently on some matters of morality (some calling themselves Christians)...

...than you do?

Are you the single arbiter of true and false "gods" on this earth.
---atheist on 12/23/08


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Atheist~ I don't believe we have an invisible God, but faith in a God who makes Himself 'seen' in all the amazing world/universe around us. I personally would prefer not to see God in His actual form right at this time since He is perfectly holy, and I'm still in an imperfect body which is not pure of all sin.

I have to admit that your humor on some of your posts is great. Do you have belief in an after-life? Do you believe you and all others will be held accountable in certain ways for the life we lived here on earth? Do you admire anyone or anything Spiritual or that is spoken of in the Bible? Do you base your skepticism on the Bible/Spiritual ideas mostly because you feel man does not strive to abide in it completely?
---Anne on 12/23/08


.atheist, "bramble of words?" a bramble only to the dissers of truth, but a tree of life where its leaf does not wither to the partakers. I am from God, and my words are the words of him who sent me, my words are life to the believer and nonlife to the nonbeliever. "Who which from of God, hears these words of God, on account of this you all hear not, because you all not being from God. Whosoever will reject me in front of men, him will I also reject in front of my Father who is in heaven." John 8:47+ Matthew 10:33.
---Eloy on 12/23/08


Eloy,

Whatever...

That bramble of words you strung together still reduce to the idea that you decide what truth and knowledge are. You substantiate that belief by claiming that you have allowed "god" guide you in your final conclusion regarding truth and knowledge.

Again you close the circle, one must believe what you believe to conclude that your beliefs are correct. Failure on my part to accept you premise that I must first let "god" show me the truth leads to the falsity of my beliefs. Failure of others who have religious beliefs to accept your 'god' will simliarly lead them to be deceived.

If I saw the world through your mind I would believe as you do.
---atheist on 12/22/08


Warwick,

I assume by your use of the phrase "absolute truth" you mean the idea that absolute truth is whatever is always valid, regardless of parameters or context.

Newtonian physics approximates the behavior of planets, while quantum theory approximates the behavior of elemental particles, but both don't agree relative to context, but are "truth" within their own contexts.

Fromm: "...the history of thought is the history of an ever-increasing approximation to the truth. Scientific knowledge is not absolute but optimal, it contains the optimum of truth attainable in a given historical period."

I can go with that one, although there are other theories of "truth" that have value.
---atheist on 12/22/08


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--Athiest:

The Spiritual TRUTH is needed to set us free from the manifested, so we may Spiritually Ascend.

We're spirits residing in and limited to/condemned to the manifested. We were created in the image of God so that we could be raised up out of the manifested and into the same Spiritual Glory as Him through faith.

Through faith the Spiritual TRUTH raises us up from our Known Manifested & Measurable existance, we reside in now, to our True Unknown Spiritual & Unmeasurable existance that lies in the Kingdom of Heaven.

We know that spiritually, we know nothing. This is why we submit completely to the unction of the Holy Spirit, through which we know all things(1 John 2:20)

Hope this helps God Bless
---Shawn_M.T. on 12/22/08


Although there were morality laws against sexual activity outside of marriage, there were no incest laws until the time of Moses. Marriage of a close relative was not forbidden until then. It took awhile for the gene pool to dilute itself to where birth defects would be an issue.
---Dave on 12/22/08


Yes Atheist and that omniscient God said- Know the truth and the truth will set you free. So it seem God is saying His truth is knowable, to those who seek. That is the clue- seek and you shall find...

When asked if you believe in absolute truth you seem to have answered- 'No. I do not.' Surely that in itself is an absolute?

Are you absolutely sure you don't believe in absolute truth?

One other problem is that if you do not believe in absolute truth how can we know what you mean when you write 'truth.'
---Warwick on 12/21/08


.atheist, "Knowing" the truth is exactly what I posted: but if you want to remain in your "unknowing" condition and fabricated confusion, then that is your desire, every choice has its reward: knowing the truth brings soundness, honor and victory to the righteous, else unknowing the truth brings confusion, foolishness and ruination to the disser.
---Eloy on 12/21/08


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Eloy,

So then: "Not knowing" the truth is having the non-genuine conversion from the unmanifested and unmeasured "knowing" condition to the unmanifested and unmeasured "unknowing" condition.

Or is it, "Not knowing" the truth is having the non-genuine conversion from the manifested and measured "knowing" condition to the manifested and measured "unknowing" condition?

Now, aside from just a little confusion, I think I now know why it is that I do not know what I do not know.

Thanks, that really helps.

Is there anything you know you do not know, or do you know it all?
---atheist on 12/21/08


Warwick,

No. I do not.

But I am certain that you are fully knowledgeable regarding the philosophies and philosophers who have written of truth, absolute truth, and knowledge throughout the centuries. I am further certain that you know which ones to discard, and those to embrace. You can no doubt point out several absolute truths and can do so expertly in 125 words.

I however, cannot. Perhaps my brain is just too small to be up to the task of comprehending the ideas of all the great minds of history, and separating the ones that are "true" from nonsense. But to know "absolute truth" I believe that I must be able to do so.

I do not think I know what I do not know.

What do you think you know?
---atheist on 12/21/08


.atheist, knowing the truth is proven reality substantiated by the manifested evidence. Presumption is the fool thinking that they know the truth when in fact they do not know the truth because of occupation with their own ideas which are not substantiated by fact but by vain imaginations. "Knowing" the truth is having the genuine conversion from the manifested and measured "unknowing" condition to the manifested and measured "knowing" condition: I was lost, but now I am found: I was in darkness, but now I am in the Light: I was drowning, but now I am rescued: I was dead, but now I am alive: I was blind, but now I see: The truth is proven to be truth: the truth is not proven to be any presumption.
---Eloy on 12/20/08


Atheist you write about truth but a question:

Do you believe there is any such thing as absolute truth?

Unless you answer then we don't know what you mean by 'truth.'
---Warwick on 12/19/08


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Warwick,

But of course you do. Afterall you know the "truth". And it follows you know that I don't know the "truth".

But the bottom line is that your knowledge of the truth comes from what you have chosen to arbitrariy believe.

But what you seems to miss is that I am not so presumptious as to believe that I have or can obtain an absolute knowledge of "truth".

Funny, but I thought that level of knowledge was held only by an omniscient "god".

I have never claimed that knowledge, but why do you? Do you know the mind of "god"?
---atheist on 12/19/08


Eloy,

You like Warwick, are so presumptious as to believe that you know the "truth".

I would agree that if there is a "god" it would be only "god" that knew the "truth". But I do not think he would be passing along that "truth" through something as inconsistent and unprovable as bible stories.

And he would have a better way of cluing me in on the "truths" than having those of "faith" tell me that I should just believe what they believe.
---atheist on 12/19/08


.atheist, It is not that I can believe the truth, but instead it is that I do believe the truth: but you choose to dis the proven truth even in the face of physical evidence from many different sources. Among such a great cloud of witnesses, and in the physical presence of God, how true is the truth which rightly declares: "The fool says in his heart that there is no God."
---Eloy on 12/19/08


Atheist ... "What evidence is there that Mary was a 'virgin'? Or Jesus or anyone else rose from the dead?"

There is evidence from what Mary said, and from what people say they saw. But concrete proof? ... no

But Atheist you say "If your god could do such things he would be showing us proof now" ... No to you now. No "would" at all.

Strangely, God does not provide proof as you require it. God leaves it to our faith

You can't understand that, can you?
---alan_of_UK on 12/19/08


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Atheist don't you think it somewhat hypocritical that you pursue others to answer your questions, and provide evidence for what they believe, while refusing to answer questions or provide evidence for what you believe?

I surely do.
---Warwick on 12/18/08


Eloy,

You can believe what you believe. We all do.

In fact anyone can believe anything they want to believe. What evidence is there that Mary was a 'virgin'? Or Jesus or anyone else rose from the dead?

Someone, or even several someones, saying they saw something is evidence, but proof of nothing. How many people have been executed because someone saw 'he' did it?

If your god could do such things he would be showing us proof now...Not relying on people such as yourself to denigrate legitimate skepticism like myself by calling them liars, and referencing unreliable and uunverifiable sources.

Extraordinary claims require etraordinary proof. Show it!
---atheist on 12/18/08


Atheist it is good you accept you believe by faith. I don't believe a god created but God.

In your story you have me saying 'You claim that my only choice is to accept this thing you call "Microbe to Man".

But in fact I asked:
'If you are convinced by the evidence for microbe to man evolution.'

You are either sloppy or deceitful.

I have not said every word in the Bible is 'literally true' as God has faithfully reported peoples lies. As to what God says, it isn't my opinion, but it is absolute truth.

It is interesting that in Christian based countries atheists have freedom to peddle their nihilistic wares. While in atheistic countries Christians are jailed and executed for daring to follow Jesus.
---Warwick on 12/18/08


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