Rose, this has been covered in many posts; SEE: "Is the Catholic Bible Different" and "Why Was The Apocrypha Removed" if you want to see RCC and Protestant members arguing the issue with each other. Send me a message, I'll discuss more lengthy details with you.
Basically, the Jews rejected them *and* none of them are ever mentioned in the NT; even though they already existed long before Jesus was born! |
|
---danie9374 on 11/23/07 |
What is the meaning of cannonized?
Moderator - Approved by the universal church (wide body of churches) as to be the living scriptures from God. Most of the churches at the time had most or all of the books of the Bible and where able to compare with the other churches from around the world. The groups of church leaders that approved the Bible included only a few priests from Rome because the Roman Catholic church as we know it today wasn't even totally formed nor did they represent, but a few people at the conferences that approved the books of the NT Bible as we know it today. |
|
---Yura on 5/6/07 |
Ask the Holy Spirit. |
|
---wes on 1/3/06 |
Both Protestantism and RCism at that time were heavily influenced/allied to the temporal powers.
Rulers used religion to keep the people under their control.
No doubt there were those who put to death heretics thinking it was the right thing to do, but I suspect it was because these people represented a threat to the establish rulers of the countries.
And at that time the Vatican wielded tremendous international power, and was unscrupulous in using it. |
|
---alan8869_of_UK on 9/28/05 |
Emcee ... Oliver Cromwell did not reign, he ruled. He was a particularly poisonous Protestant, who caused the eradication of a large part of the RCC believers in England.
The Inquisition was setn up by the Spainish, and spread its activities thoughout Europe, operating for a time in England when it was ruled by a RC monarch.
The KJV was translated during the reign of James, much later than Henry VIII. |
|
---alan8869_of_UK on 9/28/05 |
Alan- There are four marks of the true church.1: The church is one (Rom:12:5,1 Cor 10:17,12:13).2: The Church is Holy( Eph 5:25, Rev 19:7) 3: The Church is Catholic ( Matt 28:18-20, Rev 5:9-10) and finally The Church is Apostolic 9 Eph 2:19-20). |
|
---ruben on 9/28/05 |
Ruben ... what evidence do you have of Jesus establising the "Catholic Church"
He instituted, by His death and resurrection, the worldwide body of Christians, and indeed that is one definition of the the word "catholic. But He did not set up the organisation now known as the RCC |
|
---alan8869_of_UK on 9/28/05 |
Ruben:I believe Alan is right it was not Luther. But During the reign of Oliver Cromwell the inquisition was set up giving rise to christians & catholics being killed,there was this purge in England, England was at one time Catholic & it was in the reign oF Henry the VIII that there was a break away from the Catholic church,. because the pope did not allow Henry to divorce his wife. Henry needed a male heir which was not forthcoming.At this time the KJV came into existance. |
|
---Emcee on 9/28/05 |
Ruben "Read the books of Jacques Gouet, tortured and beheaded in 1547; and Michael Servetus, burned at the stake in 1553)"
Was that by order of Luther ? |
|
---alan8869_of_UK on 9/28/05 |
i'm with Wesley on this, let's stick with the Christian Bible and not the Catholic Bible. Evenso many current Christian Bibles substitute the Spirited words from God, for uninspired words of unregenerate man, and thereby they dilute the power of God. Some omit the miracles and signs done by the Spirit, some remove the Heavenly Trinity, and some denigrate the full deity of Christ. |
|
---Eloy on 9/28/05 |
Mod- Catholic church has been around way before 4 century, which you have not provided me with where you get the information. Consider this -First Ecumenical Council: Nicaea I (325) The Council of Nicaea lasted two months and twelve days. Three hundred and eighteen bishops were present. Hosius, Bishop of Cordova, assisted as legate of POPE SYLVESTER. The Emperor Constantine was also present. To this council we owe The Creed (Symbolum) of Nicaea.
Moderator - 325 AD is the 4th century. 3 of the 318 bishops were from Rome. It sounds like we are saying the same thing. Once Emperor Constantine's empire fell through his three sons, the Roman Catholic Church as we know it today began to form. |
|
---ruben on 9/27/05 |
Alan- Read the books of Jacques Gouet, tortured and beheaded in 1547; and Michael Servetus, burned at the stake in 1553). About the Early church was Catholic founded by Jesus in 33 Ad, read the writing of Pope clement 1, Irenaeus,Ignatius of Antioch, Cyprian of carthage, Jerome,Justin Martyr etc..etc..About Peter in Rome-Irenaeus, in Against Heresies (A.D. 190), said that Matthew wrote his Gospel while Peter and Paul were evangelizing in Rome and laying the foundation of the Church.
Moderator - Please read the Bible and not heresy of men. Jesus Christ and Peter never proclaimed in the Bible to be Roman Catholic. The Roman Catholic Church didn't even exist until the 5th century AD. |
|
---ruben on 9/27/05 |
Ruben ... can you please provide evidence that Martin Luther ever murdered anyone, or encouraged it. Did Peter ever go to Rome? When did the early Christian Church become the Catholic Church? Why does a Roman Catholic say "I am not a Christian, I am a Catholic" |
|
---alan8869_of_UK on 9/27/05 |
(Bible was canonized only 3 Roman Catholics out of 100+ bishops attended because the Catholic Church as we know it today didn't exist.) Since it was only 3 Catholic's What were the names of them and what year are you talking about? If the catholic's Church kill millions like you say they did and tythe Reformation killed only 100, why would that be good for them? A kill is a kill, we both did bad! By the way, how were they Roman Catholic if the Church was not around?
Moderator - They were Roman Catholic in that they came from the city of Rome; not Roman Catholic as practiced today. The Church as more known today came after the fall of the Roman Empire and the Roman bishop took the little remaining power still available in the empire which formed the Roman Catholic Church over the next 100 years. |
|
---ruben on 9/27/05 |
The added books were included in the Catholic Bible at the Council of Trent in the 16th century.
They were not recognized by the early church as there were doctrinal problems as well as geographical errors. Even Jerome who put together the Vulgate has reservations about them but included them at the discretion of the pope.
The Jews did not include them in the canon and Jesus quoted from every OT book except those that were added to the Catholic bible. |
|
---lee on 9/26/05 |
Moderator - Those few people didn't kill millions of Christians over hundreds of years. Nor did they or the Catholic Church write the NT Bible; the Apostles did that.Oh Yes, they did(Luther and company did), please read your history book. The BIBLE is a Catholic book, if not THEN WHAT EARLY CHURCH PUT THE BIBLE TOGETHER?
Moderator - How did Luther kill millions of Christians? Please send me to a few sources to read. If I remember correctly, the Catholic Church tried to kill the Christians in Germany and they defended themselves. The apostles did write the Bible. When the Bible was canonized only 3 Roman Catholics out of 100+ bishops attended because the Catholic Church as we know it today didn't exist. You should know this history. |
|
---ruben on 9/25/05 |
Heres one for you. PROVE THAT THE ADDED BOOKS IN THE CATHOLIC BIBLE ARE TRUE. I know that there is no way you can, but something is telling me that you will try.
Please, let's focus on the real Bible. You know, the one with the 66 books. The one that is cannonized. You know, the Word of God. |
|
---Wesly on 9/25/05 |
Ruben ... I studied the Reformation at school. and I do not recall that Luther killed or advocated the killing of anyone. |
|
---alan8869_of_UK on 9/25/05 |
There are fundamentalist all over the U.S. and I am proud to be a fundamental baptist from the south. Most are not from the south, but most are from the United States. |
|
---shira_5965 on 9/25/05 |
(Moderator - Approved by the universal church (wide body of churches) as to be the living scriptures from God) Names of the Early Church and what year was the Bible put together and which books were consider CANON? Also Luther,Zwingli,Calvin, KILLED peoples as well. Please mention these REFORMERs as well, you can read this in your history books as well.
Moderator - Wasn't Luther a Catholic Priest that became a reformer? Those few people didn't kill millions of Christians over hundreds of years. Nor did they or the Catholic Church write the NT Bible; the Apostles did that. |
|
---ruben on 9/25/05 |
Moderator you say "The Christian churches never disappeared even when during the Crusades the Catholic Church killed millions of Christians and Jews so that could try to act that like they didn't exist as well as to burn their non-catholic Bibles" Are you sure you do not mean the Inquisition? Surely the Crusades were against the Muslim Ottomans?
Moderator - Yes, you are correct Inquisition. |
|
---alan8869_of_UK on 9/24/05 |
Mike thanks for the info. I had the opportunity to visit some Coptic churches in Egypt. They are beautiful in their liturgy and their buildings are beautiful as well. But the structure of their services and traditions are nothing like what some non-catholic, dont call them protestant, denominations practice who claim to be the direct descendants of the early church. Google fundamentalist Baptist and see how many surprisingly claim to be the original church. Funny how they are almost all in the south. |
|
---randy on 9/15/05 |
Mod-(even when during the Crusades the Catholic Church killed millions of Christians and Jews so that could try to act that like they didn't exist as well as to burn their non-catholic Bibles.) Did not the Protestant Reformation also kill christians under Martin luther,John Calvin and Wesley?
Moderator - Luther was a Catholic still unlearning his teaching (kidding). Please give the history of the three. Thanks. |
|
---ruben on 9/15/05 |
The story of Satan and Michael fighting over the bones of Moses isn't even in the RCC Bible.
It is found in the Assumption of Moses, a rather obscure OT apocypha. |
|
---mike6553 on 9/15/05 |
Randy, by tradition the Coptic church of Egypt, and its related churches, were founded by the evangelist Mark, after the death of Peter. Historically their claim is valid.
There are churches in India who claim to descend from Doubting Thomas, who went to India to preach. Again tradition, but these 2 groups could claim to be the oldest.. |
|
---mike6553 on 9/14/05 |
I don't have a RC bible handy Co ach so I can't check that, but it is in the KJV.
Nice to see you BTW, where you been hiding?
Thanks "other Bob" my son Bob writes here on occasion too, you Bobs should take a #! |
|
---NVBarbara on 9/13/05 |
Not to take a side on this debate(i am just trying to learn) but ...the story of Satan and (i believe)Micheal disputing over Moses` bones is this not the only time any of these books are referred to in the NT???Is this in madcabee(not sure)
LOVE JESUS |
|
---co_ach on 9/13/05 |
I think that any added books other than the ones that should be in the Bible should be used as toilet paper! Sorry for being so blunt but God hates that! It's like putting words in God's mouth. The apocrapha is not a part of the Bible! |
|
---Ralph on 9/13/05 |
I'm the other Bob. I do not believe that the added books in the catholic bible are the word of God. I don't know how to prove it, but my Pastor who is anointed and very knowledgeable on the subject, can. I'll have to speak to him and do research. I believe that there are only 66 books in the Bible, which contains the precious Word of God. |
|
---Bob on 9/13/05 |
Bob, can you give ONE instance where any verse from the apocrapha was quoted by Jesus? I think you may be wrong here, that is but one reason they are not in anything but the Douay bible, and even then not all the books are included. Parts of it contradict what is in the rest of the bible. |
|
---NVBarbara on 9/13/05 |
Both the RCC and the Orthodox churches claim lineage to the early believers in ACTS as well. Is there an unbroken line of believers that has existed since then or even a place of worship that predates early Catholic Churches. Some say that they exist but have not seen evidence of them other than word of mouth. The oldest uninterrupted gathering of believers that I have found are RCC/Orthodox. |
|
---randy on 9/13/05 |
Firstly, I think those who support these dubious documents need to tell me why I should believe in them.
1/ Bel and the Dragon. A Persian fire god myth.
2/Tobias. Nice story, bu what does it contribute to our need for salvation.
3 The various Macabees. 1st history, the rest re-writes of 1.
4/ The rest are are also rejected by the Jews. |
|
---mike6553 on 9/13/05 |
I have seen many times in this blog about churches that were not RCC or Orthodox that have existed since the times of Christ. I travel extensively in the mid-east, Greece, and have lived for several years in North Africa and have not found evidence of these ancient churches, either in their buildings or their congregations. Can anyone suggest where I can find these? I have read Trail of Blood and found it full of supposition but little fact.
Moderator - Read the New Testament specifically the Book of Acts. This is the beginning of church history not RCC or Orthodox which came later. |
|
---randy on 9/13/05 |
Bob: Can you show us in scripture where Jesus and the Jewish people mentioned the books of which we speak or quoted from them? Scriptural answers please, not just your opinion. Thanks and God Bless! |
|
---Debbie on 9/13/05 |
Moderator, I heard of what you said about the catholic church persecuting true christians. I also heard that the catholic church tortured non catholics if they refused to become catholic. I heard this after I left the catholic church for good. Tell us more, because I only know bits and pieces.
Moderator - Do a study on the Inquisitions on the net or history books. Just type the word in a search engine. |
|
---Peter on 9/13/05 |
Who says they are not true. Just because they were not available when some small group of people decided to "select" what books should be in the Bible, does not mean they are not true. They were referred to by Jesus and the New Testament writers certainly used quotes from these books. By the way I am definitely NOT catholic.
Moderator - "Who says they are not true" What is the "they" you are referring to? |
|
---Bob on 9/13/05 |
What do you mean by added? Before the plethora of "Protestant" churches they were there,and they remain.How did the Protestant band of scizms and denominations get so wise 1600 years after the foundation of the church?? Do they choose? On whose authority?
Moderator - Prior to the Catholic Church forming after the fall of Rome, there were only Christian churches not Roman Catholic. The Christian churches never disappeared even when during the Crusades the Catholic Church killed millions of Christians and Jews so that could try to act that like they didn't exist as well as to burn their non-catholic Bibles. |
|
---david on 9/13/05 |
|
