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Disapproving Of Tongue Speaking

Why is it that the ones who have never received the baptisim of the Holy Spirit with evidence of tongues are the ones trying to disprove it. I read on another page one person said we who have, tend to think those who have not as 2nd rate christians. Heaven forbid. It's a gift not a requirement.

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Trav it is regrettably that many have lost the sight on the true teachings of the baptism of fire. today they think it is power, anointing and manifestation. however when jesus used fire it talked about
judgement or purification (to be cleansed by fire) it is probably due to the painful tone that many people reject it . where there is so much emphasizing the sattisfection of the senses, a puritan though is often rejected and replaced with what pleases the mind. nevertheless as the father does not give a serpent to someone who asks a fish i believe God wants you to dwell deeper in His divine gifts.
---Andy on 5/5/09


Shawnie, I loved my pastor from that church and the church. It is a spiritual church but allows those believes to go overboard. The very problem Paul had with the Corinthians and the reason he wrote 1 Cor. 13. The tongues speaking got out of hand. In that time they had two visions come to the church. One first from Florida, and the church changed again in many teachings, then before I left another vision came from Hunduras or Panama, And the changes came again in teaching. Everytime someone got a vision things changed. What I studied on the baptism of the Holy Spirit with fire was wrong. Demanding that the Spirit of God was not in the life of the true believer. And was an extra event independed of God, and a process man had to do.
---MarkV. on 5/4/09


Rob: Sounds like you've had a bad experience with some preachers - that's too bad. Any Preacher (no mater what denomination) who distorts the Word of God is not a preacher sent from God and will be punished for leading people astray. People should not blindly say "Amen" to whatever they hear, they have to make sure that what the preacher is saying is true. I thank God for my Pastor who preaches straight from the bible and leaves his opinions out of it! I also hope that you can put your negative thoughts about these preachers behind and listen to what Batieste and I have to say with an open mind - because like it or not, it is truth.
---Shawnie on 5/4/09


Mark V: It sounds like you also had a bad experience with a Pentecostal church. That's really a shame. I don't know if it was an Apostolic persuasion like the one I attend, but nonetheless, they were in error if they didn't let you ask any questions. If you were asking them in a respectful way, there is no reason why your concerns shouldn't have been addressed. Hearing about what you and Rob have gone through makes me sad. That is why it is so important to have a Pastor/teacher who is led by the Spirit and teaches the Word of God straight from the bible. I praise God that my church is led by a man who does both.
---Shawnie on 5/4/09


Rob: What you wrote about the Apostolic preacher who taught that Jesus committed suicide breaks my heart. It is 100% in error, on this we can agree on. I only request that you don't let this skew your view of what Batieste and I are trying to say to you. We only come at you with scriptures - what that preacher allegedly said was not biblically based. Just as I'm sure you wouldn't say that all Catholic priests are child molesters, I'm sure you would agree that all Apostolics do not agree with the message that was given by that preacher.
---Shawnie on 5/4/09




Rob 1 Corinthians 12:7 says there is a manifestation of the holy spirit. and also in in Acts when the holy ghost was received people thought they were drunk Acts 2:15.



Rob also when the ARK was returned King David danced and twirled, because he was excited. psalms 149 says praise the lord 's name with dancing.

Rob there is a lot for you learn.

you kinda went over the top with people jumping over pews..

Even though I show you scriptures that command us to do all this stuff you still will not receive because you have wrote your own bible.
---batieste on 5/4/09


Rob there arent any contradictions in the bible. Everytime YOU dont understand somthing I noticed that you say its a contradiction or that someone it distorting the truth. You need to correct youself on that. I have been giving you chapter and verse.
The problem is that you dont comprehend English that well. I'm not getting on you RoB, I'm sorry if it sounds that way. You need a NIV version bible.

You say you dont understand something? I can go over it with you to make it clear. no problem.
---batieste on 5/4/09


Rob, I didnt finish when I was explaining about the tongues, I have the verses to back it up. its just hard to write with tis 125 word margin.. would you please just be more patience with me.
---batieste on 5/4/09


Rob, like I said before. every church is different. Just because it bears a certain name dosnt mean that its going to be same. Thats why its important to find a church that is walking with God, and baptizes in jesus name and teaches the holy ghost.
If you read your bible , it says there will be false profits, and wolves in sheep clothing. You should be expecting that.
---batieste on 5/4/09


2. when Jesus ministered demons would constantly cry out as soon as he came near, when they brought the epileptic boy near Jesus, the demon put the boy in a convulsion... etc. i must admit that OUR churches should really pray for the gift of discernement, as to find out if it is from God, man or demons. and to be more carefull because some have indeed turned it into a charade instead. Paul had an equally frightening experience when the demonpossesed girl "prophecied" yet since God gave him discernement he easely rebuked and sent away that evil spirit. still it took some days for Paul to figure it out.
---Andy on 5/4/09




MarkV, i had same experience as you when a brother from the Evangelical church came to teach upon Revelations in our church (before i became a ministerr)i asked one simple question he could'nt answerr and the man actually pronounced anathema upon me 'imagine my chock', a little later i ghot the same experience during studies upon marriage, the baptist teacher teached one way, yet he lived another. when asking why he threw certain scripturesn at my head to show me how heretical i was to ask a question like that. I Pray that God will deliver every Christian teacher from the PAPAL SYNDROM that is the idea that we are infallible when teaching doctrine.
---Andy on 5/4/09


Rob, I didn't see #2 post come out so let me explain. I got very embarassed and set down. The pastor told everyone that after the class he would explain. Then the teacher told everyone who was not baptized by the Holy Spirit with fire, to stand up and recieve the Holy Spirit and they all began to speak gibberish talk with hands up high, dancing. It looked like a cult ritual, I was scared. I decided not to go to that class and read on the subject on my own. I finish a book they gave me by a guy name Derek Prince, and then compared it to Scripture in context and most of it was not true. They had the Holy Spirit coming into someone two or three times. Been baptized into the body of Christ, having the Holy Spirit at conversion was not good enough.
---MarkV. on 5/4/09


ROB, you said I have been to Apostolic/Pentecostal/Charasmatic Churches...I have no desire to ever go back to...I was told the people were acting this way because the Holy Spirit had came upon them. The way they were acting was more in line with their being possesed by a Demonic and Evil Spirit, Matthew 8:28 and Mark 9:17-26.
I am pastoring such a church,(freedom of spirit) and yes you are tottally right in saying that if violent manifestations occur, it is probably demonic. problem is that some in our "line of ministry" are blinded to the fact and say Hallelujah instead of assisting the Holy Spirit for that persons deliverance.
---Andy on 5/4/09


Rob, When I first took a class on the gifts of the Spirit I saw how senitive the subject was. I was a member of a Pentecostal church at the time. I had a great teacher and I always taped what he said and even took film with my camera. After about 6 months of the class we got into the second baptism and possibly a third, and let me tell you I was lost. I didn't know much about the subject so while in class with about 100 members, I ask one question to an evangelist sister from Florida who was teaching the class in English and my pastor was interpreting in Spanish about the second baptism and possibly a third and the sister got mad at me. She ask me if I was questioning her teachings and I answered no.
---MarkV. on 5/3/09


Batieste, you wrote how do you distort any scripture. How soon you seem to forget.

On 4/30/09, using what is written in 1 Corinthians 12: 29, you wrote there is a gift of speaking in tongues which is separate from the first sign of receiving the Holy Ghost. I asked you to share where this written in this verse of scripture but you ignored my asking. This is just one of the many things which you have written which are in direct contradiction of what is wriiten in scripture.

If you like, I will review the things you have written in the past which are in direct contradiction of what is written in scripture and share them with you and others.
---Rob on 5/2/09


Batieste, I have been to Apostolic/Pentecostal/Charasmatic Churches in the past. Based on the things I saw and heard, I have no desire to ever go back to one again. I saw people running up and down the rows, jumping over the pews, falling to the ground, and rolling around on the floor. Women had to be covered with sheets to cover their private parts.

Scripture tells us Worship is to be done in a decent and orderly manner, 1 Corinthians 14:39-40.

I was told the people were acting this way because the Holy Spirit had came upon them. The way they were acting was more in line with their being possesed by a Demonic and Evil Spirit, Matthew 8:28 and Mark 9:17-26,
---Rob on 5/2/09


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Batieste, I listen to Apostolic/Pentecostal/Charasmatic on television or the radio just to hear what they will say.

I remember listening to a Pentecostal preacher known to be the most prominant in America. He claims to be a Spirit filled, Mighty Man of God but rejects that God is a Truine God, and rejects the Holy Spirit is part of the God Head.

I was listening his sermon he had entitled "I HAVE SEEN THE STAR." In this sermon and using what is written in Matthew 2:2, he told people that the people of God are to be walking in DARKNESS so they can follow the star. People stood to their feet and started shouting AMEN, EVEN THOUGH WHAT THIS PREACHER SAID WAS IN DIRECT CONTRADICTION OF WHAT IS WRITTEN IN John 3:19-21.
---Rob on 5/2/09


Batieste, I have also listened to a popular and prominant Apostolic Preacher who claims to be Spirit filled, a Mighty Man of God, along with being an Apostle of Jesus Christ. I don't remember the title of this sermon but he was using what is written in John 10:17-18.

I clearly remember this person using this passage of scripture and telling people "JESUS DID NOT DIE ON THE CROSS BECAUSE SOMEWHERE BETWEEN THE GARDEN OF GETHSEMENE AND CALVARY, JESUS COMMITTED SUICIDE. Once again people stood up and shouted AMEN, even though what this preacher said is in direct contradition of what is written in Matthew 26:36 thru Matthew 27:56.
---Rob on 5/2/09


Rob, I can't see how I distort any scriptures. I put them out for you to read, and tell you how it is. I dont look for loop holes and hidden meanings like THOSE who try and tell ME that we dont need to be baptised of WATER and in JESUS NAME when its written,And comanded to do so ALL OVER the book of ACTS. THEN you use the book of Corinth to try to prove stuff. Corith was a church of GOD,1 corith1:2. They were saved ALREADY. They recieved the holy ghost like in Acts. PAUL wrote to them to correct there behavior in the church. He tells you that in chapter 14.
---batieste on 5/1/09


ROB I'm not trying to fool you. I have spoken in tongues, all of this is real.
I have heard people speak, its not bla, blah blah like you think. You will be amazed of what you hear. and there is No way that I could come up with this stuff on my own. actually i had nothing to do with it at all. Its so very real like the scriptures have said.
Maybe you should go check out a Apostolc or pentecost church to see and hear about what you have been talking against. just go to listen and hear someone speak in tongues, you might get lucky to hear small child speak.

---batieste on 5/1/09


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Rob, I didn't forget that scripture I totally agree with it! I'm not sure what I said that makes you think that I don't. In any case, I think you and I are getting our signals crossed on the word "change" what I mean by there is no change in baptism is that it is still necessary for salvation today. The scriptures you pointed out to me are correct some people were baptized first then received the Holy Ghost, others got the Holy Ghost first and then were baptized. It doesn't matter what order these two come in as long as you get them!
---Shawnie on 5/1/09


Rob: I never said that Jesus baptized anyone, and I agree that Paul did say that he did not come to baptize with water, but to share the Gospel. BUT that doesn't equate to us not having to be water baptized. If you read verses 14-16 of 1 Corinthians Paul clearly states that he DID baptize some people in the Corinthian church. So he must have believed in the necessity of being baptized. If you read verses 11-17, it shows that there was a division in the Church that Paul was trying to squash. The Corinthians were dividing themselves up into factions based upon who baptized them. Paul was telling them that this is wrong and we are all to follow Christ.
---Shawnie on 5/1/09


Rob, come on.....NOW. Look, if you want to learn more you can't have a negative attitude. You also have to understand who 1 Corinth was written to? Corinth was a church they were already saved Paul called them saints, have you noticed there is no instruction on how or what is needed to saved in that book? because he is speaking to people that were baptized, and received the holy spirit like in the book of Acts. you can find that 1 Corinth 1:2 to the church of Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy. Meaning these people already know the steps and have taken the steps to be saved.Paul is writing to them to correct there behavior in the church
continued-
---batieste on 5/1/09


At my place of Worship only ENGISH IS SPOKEN.

I remember years ago an individual would atten Worship service who did not speak or understand ENGLISH. I remember someone who spoke the same language as this individual would sit next to them and translate everything which was said.
---Rob on 4/30/09


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Batieste, you are a person who distorts and perverts what is written in scripture. Please show me where it is written in 1 Corinthians 12:29 where it says that speaking in tongues is the first sign of receiving the Holy Ghost.

I remember in the past you saying you received the Holy Spirit in the same manner inwhich the Apostles received it. I remember you saying that when you recieved the Holy Spirit you heard a mighty wind blowing, Acts 2:2.

I guess the next thing you will say is that when you received the Holy Spirit cloven tongues of fire sat upon you, Acts 2:3.

When I think about you I think about what is written in 2 Peter 2:1-3 and 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12.
---Rob on 4/30/09


I have nothing against people speaking in tongues (A KNOWN LANGUAGE IN THE WORLD) as long as it is done according the the instructions which are given in scripture, 1 Corinthians Chapter 12, and 1 Corinthians Chapter 14.

However, I am 100% against those who distort and pervert what it really meas to speak in tongues (A KNOWN LANGUAGE IN THE WORLD), Acts 2:1-11.
---Rob on 4/30/09


Shawnie, it is wrong to forget about the scriptures, 2 Timothy 3:16.

Concerning the changes regarding WATER BAPTISM. First people were baptized with water, then the received the Holy Spirit, Acts 2:38.

Later people received the Holy Spirit then the were baptized with water, Acts 10:45-48.

Jesus did not come to baptize with water, Acts 11,16, and you will not find anywhere in scripture where Jesus ever baptized anyone with water.

Also the Apostle Paul did not come to baptize with water, but to share the Gospel with theGentiles, 1 Corinthians 1:17.
---Rob on 4/30/09


Rob, There is no contradiction in the bible. none....

When you receive the Holy Ghost speaking is the first sign that you have received the holy ghost.

Acts 2:33 (King James Version)

33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

the proof is WHICH YE NOW SEE AND HEAR. You hear yourself speaking in tongues.

1 Corinth 12:29 there is a gift of speaking in tongues which is separate from the first sign of receiving the holy ghost. After the first sign you may not be able to speak again tongues again, or for sometime.
---batieste on 4/30/09


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Shawnie, the Gospel of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were written to the Jews. The Kingdom of God was to be established through the Jews, But they rejected Jesus as King and the Messaiah.

Becuase of this rejection the Apostle Paul began sharing the Gospel of GRACE with the Gentiles. This is just one part of the Mystery of the Gospel which was kept secret from the foundation of the world until itwas revealed to the Apostle Paul. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE MYSTERY OF THE KINGOM AND THE MYSTERY OF THE GOSPEL. The 12 Apostles did not know the MYSTERY OF THE GOSPEL.

Don't believe me because I said it, check the scriptures for yourself.
---Rob on 4/30/09


Rob: When quoting the bible it's important to know who the writer was speaking to otherwise scriptures can be misinterpreted. All of the epistles were written to people who were preached the gospel (baptism and Holy Ghost) PRIOR to receiving those letters. The Apostles were men led of God so why would they preach one thing in the book of Acts then turn around and preach something else in an epistle? The book of Acts is a guideline for the Church and we are still bound by those teachings. Here's a quote from a study bible that says it all: "This book (Acts) may be studied to gain an understanding of the principles that ought to govern the church of ANY age."
---Shawnie on 4/30/09


Rob: Batieste is correct, the book of Corinthians was written to people who were already baptized in Jesus' name and filled with the Holy Ghost, that is why he called them the "church". As a student of the bible I'm sure you know that the book of Acts (written by Luke) contains the first 30 years of the history of the church. There it recounts Paul's missionary work in Galatia, Corinth, Ephesus, and so on. So when he wrote the epistles to these various churches it is important to remember that he already shared the gospel with them and they obeyed it. As such in the letters he wrote to them later he did not have to repeat these commands they already obeyed them.
---Shawnie on 4/30/09


Batieste, it looks like you are still avoiding what is written in 1 Corinthians Chapter Twelve, which I have shared with you many times.
---Rob on 4/30/09


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Rob I don't deny, nor do I reject any book of the bible. The bible says you need the spirit to read and better understand the Word. The problem is that People think they have the spirit when they don't. If you ha vent received it like in the book of Acts you don't have the holy ghost.
Rob, Another problem is the books of the Corinthians,1Peter,2Peter,and Colossians were to people that were saved. They received the Holy Ghost just like in Acts.
Those books are telling saints on how to live. examples continued-
---batieste on 4/30/09


Rob continued-examples, the beginning of the book of 1 Corinthians 1:2 TO the church of God in Corinth, TO THOSE SANCTIFIED IN THE CHURCH OF CHRIST JESUS and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ- their Lord and ours.
2 example, Paul is correcting the saints in Corinthian14 not to speak in tongues out of order in front of unbelievers Corinth14:23-24. but in Corinth14:18 Pail says that he speaks in tongues more than all of you. Paul is just correcting the saint behavior.
---batieste on 4/30/09


Rob, let's forget the scriptures for a moment. What is it exactly that you are trying to say about baptism? Are you saying that we are no longer obligated to be baptized? That the Holy Ghost (speaking in tongues) is no longer necessary? I'm curious...
---Shawnie on 4/30/09


Batieste, you are correct there was a new covenant after Christ ascended to heaven, but it is still very apparent you reject everything which was written after the book of Acts.

You wrote everyone spoke in tongues when they received the Holy Spirit. This is in direct contradiction of what is written in 1 Corinthians Chapter Twelve.

---Rob on 4/29/09


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Shawnie, things did change regarding Baptism. Take a closer look at the scriptures I shared.

I had studied the Bible for years, but never noticed these changes until someone pointed them out to me.
---Rob on 4/29/09


Rob, the last covenant changed was when Jesus ascended to heaven, so that means that what ever the Apostles went through we must go through also. All through the book of Acts they tell you what do do. And everyone that received the holy spirit spoke in tongues.Act 2:38 peter says repent and be baptized for the remission of sin. The Gentles in Acts 10:47 received the holy ghost and spoke in tongues. peter told them to be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Acts 19:1-6 Paul ask the disciples have you received the holy ghost since you be lived? why would Paul ask that is you received it immediately when you believe? continued-
---batieste on 4/29/09


oontinued- why would Paul ask that is you received it immediately when you believe? Because you don't receive it automatically when you believe. the disciples were re baptized in the name of Jesus because there were HUMBLE and OBEDIENT. they received the Holy Ghost and spoke in tongues.everyone that received the holy ghost spoke in tongues.

I did answer question last week, about the mystery of the gospel. but you probley misread it like everything you have been reading.
---batieste on 4/29/09


Rob: I digested the scriptures you suggested, but I dont get what you are trying to prove with them. NONE of them say that we who are living now dont have to be baptized. The last covenant change was when Jesus ascended to heaven and sent his Spirit down on the day of Pentecost, from that day forward to enter His Kingdom we have to obey the following: Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off. Notice the words TO ALL THAT ARE AFAR OFF. (PT 1)
---Shawnie on 4/29/09


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Shawnie, I need to make a correction. One of the scriptures I mentioned was Acts 2:28. It should be Acts 2:38.
---Rob on 4/28/09


Batieste, our not having to go through or do what the Apostles did is part of the MYSTERY OF THE GOSPEL, which you still apparently reject even though it is written in scripture many, many times.

It is true that the Gospel of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were written before Pentecost, but you still refuse to accept that the MYSTERY OF THE GOSPEL was not revealed until after Pentecost.

Batieste, you say you believe the Bible from cover, yet I have attempted to share with you from scripture the MYSTERY OF THE GOSPEL, which you constantly reject.

This means you do not believe and accept the Bible from cover to cover, like you say you do.
---Rob on 4/28/09


Rob, those aren't the scriptures. If we don't have to do go through what the Apostles did, there must be a new covenant. new rules.but that didn't happen. So we still have the Apostles as our examples.

The last covenant change was when Jesus ascended to heaven. The next one is for the people left behind after the rapture.

So Rob, The book of Mark , doesn't even go past the day of Pentecost. so how dose that say anything about not having to be baptized.

Acts 1:5 dose not say not to be baptized of water... you should ask a English teacher what that says...and stop twisting it.
continued
---batieste on 4/28/09


continued-Rob, none of your scriptures say that you cant be baptized, actually in Act 10:47 peter is asking can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? Then in Act10:48 peter COMMANDED them to be baptized in the name of the lord.
you aren't reading these scriptures correctly. you need a NIV bible then you can refer back and forth to king James. I have about 6 bibles, i have the Macarthur study bible, a parallel bible NIV-KJV,Thompson chain reference study bible,and thats just 3 of them.

---batieste on 4/28/09


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Bruce: I take the comment that people who are apostolic or oneness are in a cult in the spirit in which it was written an insult. Not only an insult to me but to God. The bible itself says that there is only ONE Lord, ONE FAITH, ONE baptism. Sounds like God believes in oneness Himself. I cant speak for the UPC or any other church than the one I attend, but I guarantee that there is no following of the party line or any man-made traditions. My Pastor speaks directly from the bible, not from his opinion. Until you humble yourself to receive the truth you will be like the people Paul spoke of in Romans, professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.
---Shawnie on 4/28/09


Rob: I am not ignoring your post. I will try to read the scriptures you requested that I read today and get back with you tomorrow. I look forward to answering your questions with the TRUTH that only God's Spirit can reveal.
---Shawnie on 4/28/09


Batieste, you wrote that nothing has changed, and if they did you want scripture, chapter and verse.

I shared these passages of scripture with Shawnie on 4/24/09.

Did you not read them, or is it that you rejected them because they are true and you would rather continue in lies and deception?
---Rob on 4/28/09


EVE its not you that that speaks in tongues, God is the one that enables you to speaks in tongues. the spirit takes over. just like Act2:1-4 its the same thing.
---batieste on 4/28/09


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Batieste,
In the spirit of Mark 6:11 and Matt 7:6 etc, I'm done. I trust someday you will come to a knowledge of the truth.
---Bruce5656 on 4/27/09


Speaking in tongues is fine when it happens naturally. I just dont like it when everyones in church and the pastor starts revin everyone up to do it and then the entire church sounds like an indian raindance. freaks me out. the worst thing is i know their not really speaking in tongues - well most of them arent - and i get aggravated cause its loud and weird and FAKE - i speak in tongues somtimes when i am alone but if i dont feel it bein genuine i stop and just pray normal - i dunno, i guess i have mixed feelings about the subject
---eve on 4/27/09


bruce I didnt miss anything, I had posted more than 1, and many arent being posted.
The same spirit puts everyone in the same body the same way.
Nothing has change. Show me where, I want scriptures, chapter and verse, where dose it say recieving the holy ghost has changed from how the Apostles recieved it?
Furthermore, we are in the same covenant the Apostles are in. the same requirments need to be met.
for water baptism Titus 3:5 (King James Version)

5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost,
---batieste on 4/27/09


Bruce thank you for your passages and comments. I believe you are correct in that there is only "one Spirit" given to all who believe.
"But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all" "All" is all the believers for verse one he says, "Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren (this means all those who are brothers in Christ) I do not want you to be ignorant" The same Spirit gives differently, The word of knowledge, faith, gifts of healings, working of miracles, prophecy, discerning of spirits, different kinds of tongues, interpretation of tongues, but one and the same Spirit works all these things differently in each one"
---MarkV. on 4/27/09


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Batieste,

"That means its the same spirit the Apostles received in Act2:1-4, and the same spirit the Gentiles received Act10:47, the same spirit Acts19:1-6. Because its the same spirit, We all receive it the same way"

In your haste to prove your false doctrine, You miss the point altogether. Read it again, I Cor 12:13 is not about there being "One Spirit" and it is not about baptism in the Spirit.

It is about the Spirit baptizing us (placing us within) the body of Christ.
---Bruce5656 on 4/26/09


You basically answered your own question. People who have not received it will criticize it because of unbelief.

Before I received the baptism I was vehemently opposed to those who believed in it.

There is no need to argue this point. If a believer seeks God, he will receive the baptism.
Those who doubt it should argue with the Holy Spirit who gives it.

Admittedly, there are those who behave badly who claim to be spirit-filled. For every gift of God the enemy has a substitute. Seek the giver and receive the gift.
---Richard on 4/25/09


Bruce, Duh.... of course there is more than 1 kind of baptism OF WATER AND OF SPIRIT. When the bible refers to water baptism they are talking about WATER BAPTISM.

You don't have a clue to what you are talking about at all... every time you put a scripture up you prove my point.You put up (I Cor 12:13) FOR BY ONE SPIRIT we are all baptized into One body.

That means its the same spirit the Apostles received in Act2:1-4, and the same spirit the Gentiles received Act10:47, the same spirit Acts19:1-6. Because its the same spirit, We all receive it the same way
continued-

---batieste on 4/25/09


Skawnie, earlier you wrote that we are now under a different dispensation which is true. This means that things have changed.

Concerning BAPTISM please read the following scriptures in the order which they are written. Then tell me if things concerning BAPTISM changed or if they remained the same.

Mark 1:4-5
Mark 16:15-18
Acts 1:5
Acts 2:28
Acts 10:46-48
1 Corinthians 1:14-17
1 Corinthians Chapter Twelve
Hebrews 9:9-10

If you can digest these scriptures, there are many more I can share
---Rob on 4/24/09


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Rob,

True enough. The cultic mind can only be changed by the power of God. Perhaps someday they will come to the knowledge of the truth and no longer be satisified with the party line of the "apostolic" or "oneness" or "UPC" (or what ever the false gospel they ascribe to is.) Gal 1:8

A friend of mine, who was raised in a United Pentecostal home with a United Pentecostal pastor-father, is now saved and pastoring a non-oneness Pentecostal Church.

I asked him what made the difference for him. He told me "I read the book for myself."
---Bruce5656 on 4/24/09


Bruce: You said you would think that if baptism were essential for salvation Paul would have told these people that while they did not need to be circumcised, they did not need to be baptized. The book of Galatians was written AFTER Pauls missionary journeys as noted in the book of Acts. Acts is the history of the church, it teaches us that the disciples were on one accord and that they preached the necessity of water baptism and being filled with the Holy Ghost wherever they went. So in essence Paul was preaching to the choir. They had already obeyed the command in Acts 2:38, so no need to remind them of it.
---Shawnie on 4/24/09


Rob I use only scriptures and the bible dosnt contradict itself. The mystery was revealed to the Saints. and according to Act10:44-47, You havent recived the Holy Ghost. Those were gentiles that recieved it just like the Apostles did in Acts 10:44-47. and also the beliver with Peter was astonished that the gift of the Holy Ghost had been poured out on the Gentile. For they heard them speak in tongues praising God.
Rob, that means the proof of recieving the Holy Ghost was speaking in tongues.
Since you dont believe in speaking in tongues, there can be no way that you have recieved the Holy Ghost. Therefore, The mystery of the gospel could not have been revealed to you, (Christ in you the hope of glory).
---batieste on 4/24/09


Rob, what Bruce wrote isnt a mystery, it is inaccurate. 2 Corinthians 4:3 (which Paul wrote) says if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost. In Chapter 2 vs 10 he says that God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. The mystery was once lost to me, but since I have been saved according to Act 2:38 and John 3:3, it is no longer hidden to me or anyone else who is truly born of the water and of the spirit.
---Shawnie on 4/24/09


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Bruce: thank you for making my point for me. That scripture you keep quoting to me and Batieste proves our point. Being born once (out of your mothers womb) is not enough for salvation. God requires us thru baptism (water) and of the Holy Ghost (Spirit) to become born again in order to enter into his Kingdom. The person who only experiences a fleshly birth is of the flesh, but the person who experiences the new birth (water baptism, Holy Ghost) is of the Spirit and belongs to God. There is no hidden meaning, there are no loop holes: it means what it means and it says what it says.
---Shawnie on 4/24/09


Bruce it would be good to forget about Batieste because they reject the Mystery of the Gospel which clearly declares that water baptism is no longer needed.
---Rob on 4/24/09


Batieste,
Mark 1:8, "I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost."

Are these both water baptisms? Clearly not. As I said, every time the word baptizo appears it is not refering to water baptism.

These are the three main baptisms mentioned:
In the body - by the holy spirit I Cor 12:13
In water - by man (various examples could be used)
In the Holy Spirit - by Jesus Matt 3:11

Jesus spoke of another kind of baptism in Matt 20:22 - a baptism of suffering.
---Bruce5656 on 4/24/09


Bruce, when the bible refers to water baptism it means just that. the bible is not trying to trick anyone. I think you are tricking yourself out of heaven.



Bruce, Peter says in Act2:38 repent, and be baptized everyone of you for the remission of your sin in the name of Jesus. My question to you is, IN that verse what are we doing in the name of Jesus if it is not water baptism? there has to be some type of act to carry out.

Bruce i know you are disputing everything in the bible about water, Did Jesus walk on water? or did that mean something Else, did God flood the earth? did moses really split the red sea or did that mean something else? Did John really baptized Jesus
---batieste on 4/24/09


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Shawnie, what Bruce wrote is part of the Mystery of the Gospel which was keep secret from the very foundation of the world until it was revealed to the Apostle Paul.

The Mystery of the Gospel is found several times in the Bible. Why don't people take the needed time to study it?
---Rob on 4/23/09


Batieste,
So long as you insist on reading water baptism into every appearance of the word "baptism" you will never understand.

Romans 6 is not about water baptism. It is about being - invisibly, miraculously - put into the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit at conversion . Having been put into his body, I partake in his death, burial and resurrection.

1 Corinthians 6:15, "Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ?"
1 Corinthians 12:12-13, "...all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body... and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."
---Bruce5656 on 4/23/09


Shawnie,
"John 3:3 clearly states that unless a man be born of the water AND of the spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Translation: unless we go thru this process we are not saved. How can you say that this is false teaching when it is the Word of God? "

Read the whole chapter. It is a discussion in which the natural childbirth (in a sac of water) is contrasted with the spiritual rebirth. Jesus himself makes this clear in v v5 and 6 "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."
---Bruce5656 on 4/23/09


Acts 2:38 (King James Version)
38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Bruce, Peter was obeying Christ's command from matt28:19 and turned to the lord Christ for salvationto identify, through the waterof baptism,with his death, burial, and resurrection.
Bruce, You may not agree with baptisim, But it happens to be comanded to do so by Christ. Jesus did not give an option.
---batieste on 4/23/09


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Bruce,Romans 6:3-4 (King James Version)
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Bruce, I have been water baptized in the name of Jesus. I have recieved the real genuine Holy Ghost and spoke in tongues. I am humbling myself everyday, and I repent everyday. I am in no way perfect, nor do I pretend to be. I cant list everything , So dont bother saying I forgot something.
---batieste on 4/23/09


Let note be taken that Batieste has no clue as to what is the Mystery of the Gospel, even though it is written in scripture many, many times.
---Rob on 4/23/09


Bruce: Your statement that a group of saved people got baptized doesnt make any sense. If they were already saved why would they need to be re-baptized? John 3:3 clearly states that unless a man be born of the water AND of the spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Translation: unless we go thru this process we are not saved. How can you say that this is false teaching when it is the Word of God? The Word isnt here for us to reanalyze and to twist into what we want it to mean. "Just read it as it is", and have childlike faith. Only then will the true meaning of the scriptures be revealed
---Shawnie on 4/23/09


Rob I did receive the Holy Ghost like the Apostles did Acts 2:1-4, and like the Gentiles Act10:43-46 And like John's disciples Act191:6. And no... I'm not an Apostle. I wasn't in upper room when I heard the wind. I was on my knees tarrying for the Holy Ghost at the altar with praise and thanks coming out of my mouth when I heard the wind.
And I'm sure if the people of the language I spoke were there, they would understand it what God enabled me to speak
---batieste on 4/23/09


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Batieste,
"just read it as it is."

You need to take your own advice on that.

Water baptism is a right thing to do.
Baptism is the obedient thing to do.
So is witnessing.
So is giving to the poor.

None of these things make us saved.
We do them because we are saved.

Acts 19:4-5 Luke is simply reporting what took place. A group of saved people got baptized. Before Paul got to them the only baptism they knew of was John's baptism of promise. Paul baptized then in the Christian baptism.

There is nothing to indicate that they would have not been saved if they had not gotten baptized. You are reading what you want to into it to make it coincide with your false teaching.
---Bruce5656 on 4/23/09


Batieste, is the reason you will not answer my questions concerning the Mystery of Gospel, because you don't know the Mystery, or is it you don't believe the Mystery?

The Mystery of the Gospel is shared many, many times in scripture, yet many of the statements you write are in direct contradiction of the Mystery of the Gospel.
---Rob on 4/23/09


Balieste, will please give some clarification. You said you recieved the Holy Spirit just as the Apostle's did. Are you an Apostle? Were you in the upper room with others when the wind came? Did a cloven tongue like fire sit upon you? Did you begin the share the Gospel in different language, and people understood what you were saying in their native language?
---Rob on 4/23/09


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