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Do We Still Need To Attend Church

Why is it that people who confess to be "Christians" argue about, and fight against attending church so much these days? Don't they realize it's God's will for His people to fellowship, pray, worship, and work together?

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 ---Pastors_Wife on 9/14/05
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//These are also good places to find out the latest dish, too//
could be, but you probably won't find Christ still hanging on a Cross.
---michael_e on 7/1/11


\\Usually found in home bible studies.
---michael_e on 7/1/11\\

These are also good places to find out the latest dish, too.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/1/11


//look for a church where people seem more sincere.//

Usually found in home bible studies.
---michael_e on 7/1/11


A lot of people here are disillusioned with church. Their usual complaint is that church-goers are hypocrites (in other words, they are human). There are 4 things one can do. 1) look for a church where people seem more sincere. 2. Start your own church or fellowship where you can have it all your way.3. Stay home and nurse your bitterness, stagnate from lack of Christian interaction. 4.Stay in the church and in Scripture. Be less self-centered, accept it as a "learning experience". If that fails...there is always...number 1.
1Cr 12:18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
---Donna66 on 7/1/11


Fellowshipping and Church ts very much necessary. Those who complain about Church should know that God has a congregation where HE wants to use them, wrong choice of assembly will give them problems. 1 can solve small problems, many can solve bigger problems. If early Christians stood alone, Christianity would not have advanced thus far.
---Adetunji on 6/30/11




Jesus christ lives in our hearts. People have private lives outside of the church. I choose not to attend a mens group or mens bible study because its almost always a bunch of guys that are supposed experts on the bible and belittle those that are not as supposedly filled in the spirit as they are. There is never any room for discussion or debate and if there is then questioning the bible apparently makes you look bad and the meeting then turns into everyone praying for you. So i am supposed to shut up and be in agreement or else i am the devil bringing division? Okay. I used to go to church on sundays to worship god. I have found the pastors and members to be that claim that they never sin but yet still love to judge others
---Daril_lev on 6/29/11


In answering this question here are some facts to keep in mind. The early church turned the world upside down and for the first 200 years the church had no formal permanent meeting place. If we want to help spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ how can we accomplish this cozied up with those who already are saved?
---mima on 1/1/11


Fellowshipping with other Christians takes place in many different ways, not just church.

Jesus Christ is our shepherd. The Holy Spirit our teacher.

But churches put a pastor in this postion who often turn out to be wolves in sheeps clothing, the blind leading the blind, or leaders preaching to those with itching ears.
---Haz27 on 12/31/10


LARRY 12/28/10 - It's the great fallen away - falling away fellowship

That fallen away has to do with apostate - false gospels
The Bible tells about the congregation until the end times, then the language changes

HEBREWS 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together,as the manner of some is, ----------

MATTHEW 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken by daniel the prophet,-------------
24:16 ------- Flee to the mountains. ( In other words it's time to leave the churches.)
---RICHARD on 12/31/10


Wow I think they ought to re-name this the "Beat Up The Pastor's Wife" blog, good grief guys!
---Mary on 12/29/10




Its the great falling away. Anyone who by choice is falling away from fellowship is falling away from God's will and thus from God.
We are not designed to be spiritual islands and they are foolish to believe they can withstand the wiles of the devil simply by attending church on the internet.
They are running from commitment and aren't fooling anyone, not even themselves.
Its a conscious decision.
---larry on 12/28/10


This is an old blog. Some complain that this pastor's wife seems "judgemental". I don't hear "judgementalism" from her. Nobody can beat a poster like John when it comes to that!

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

We are told that(Gal 5:25) If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
A church is one of the best places ever to grow this fruit. I certainly cannot develop if we live to and for ourselves.
---Donna66 on 12/28/10


John, why are you sooo hard on pastors' wives? Don't you have any idea how difficult a job that is?
---Mary on 12/29/10


AND THE PREACHERS WIFE SAID...
"Don't they realize it's God's will for His people to fellowship, pray, worship, and work together"...

BECAUSE THESE ARE NOT G-DS CHURCHES, BUT SOCIAL CLUBS

PASTORS WIFE DEFINITIONS:

1)FELLOWSHIP...Stuffing your face at Potluck and discussing Emma apple pie recipe and Bobs Golf game.

2)PRAY... Self serving prayer requests for earthly desires.(i.e. Travelers Insurance)

3)WORSHIP... Praise Music with hands waving so others can see how "Holy" you are.

4)WORK TOGETHER... Tithing$$$. Only time OT Law is acceptable!
---John on 12/28/10


Pastors-Wife: You exemplify the reason many believe that you don't find God in Churches. Your abrasive judgemental and unloving attitude and language are not impressive. Rebellious? I feel you are projecting.
---jody on 12/28/10


One major problem today is that Satan has infiltrated and polluted the sanctuarys, and therefore the sheep no longer want to go attend services of sin. Get rid of all the "unholy Bibles", and restore the Old Holy Bible, and get back to New Testament instructions for right and holy conduct of God's church. That means, no women in the pulpits, and no children running and jumping and playing in the aisles when the preacher is preaching or the church is praying, but a "HOUSE OF PRAYER".
---Eloy on 12/28/10


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the "pastors wife" is the reason many of us are disillusioned in the first place. no grace, no humility, and a "holier than thou" attitude. she's the poster child for the leagalism, brainwashing, disdain, false doctrines, and spiitual abuse that were so tired of, not to mention the "order" she speaks of in her church. it's the pecking-order. the christian rat race. who looks the nicest on sunday with the most stylish clothes and makeup, gives the biggest tithe and judges the most people. typical. thats why people dont go. you spend precious time and money persecuting gays when you could be reaching out to them like christ would have done. but you force your values down others throats with a pridefull attitude.
---fred_scaboda on 12/28/10


2) I'm sure He would like to minister to you through others AND He has gifted you also to be able to minister. Will be praying for you. Bless you. Glad you came here, it is a form of fellowship that might be more comfortable for you although I hope you will find a church home.
---Christina on 10/14/06


1) Bev, Jesus understands all, and I know first hand how painful shyness can be. I know also that the Lord can help you in this and desires you to be free. Keep your eyes on Jesus, which you can do anywhere, anytime. I do believe God wishes us to fellowship, to become one with Him and one another, we are His body, one a hand, another a foot, etc, and we need one another since God chooses to minister through us.
---Christina on 10/14/06


1) Bev, Jesus understands all, and I know first hand how painful shyness can be. I know also that the Lord can help you in this and desires you to be free. Keep your eyes on Jesus, which you can do anywhere, anytime. I do believe God wishes us to fellowship, to become one with Him and one another, we are His body, one a hand, another a foot, etc, and we need one another since God chooses to minister through us.
---Christina on 10/14/06


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I believe our attitude has alot to do with whether or not we attend Church. Too many don't leave their wordly problems outside of the Sanctuary. If we truly have the Love of God in our hearts our attitudes will become better.
---mardeanne on 10/14/06


Im a Christian who feels I shouldn't have to attend church in order to have a close relationship with the Lord. Its worse for me emotionally if I attend church. I usually come home quite depressed due to problems I have with shyness. I dont feel comfortable in crowds, whether church or anywhere else. Fortunately, I have lots of Christian books, music, and the Sky Angel Christian satellite system for my spiritual nourishment. I hope that Jesus understands my fear of socializing.
Bev
---Bev on 10/13/06


i am a committed christian who has been to many churches through moving around for work. stopped 2 years ago. i pray regularly with a christian friend whom i trust. I am a much happier and stronger christian. why so many pastors controlling about going to 'THEIR' church? I will not watch others be damaged any longer. i know churches and christians are in different stages of development but I'm amazed by the manipulation, judgementalism, control etc whenever I am connected to a church.
---jodi on 9/7/06


PastorsWife makes some excellent observations. There are always some who say they don't "need" the church to commune with God. True, but they need the church for Christian growth. Growth comes from GIVING of oneself, not just from being "ministered" to.
---Donna2277 on 5/24/06


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Goodness! I didn't realize how common the "Pastor's wife is a Jezebel" complain is. I've seen it a lot in some churches I attended. It was false in most but actually very true in some rarer cases.
---Okebaram on 5/22/06


A teacher--I agree. I do NOT hear any harshness in Pastor's wife's posts. What I DO hear is a woman with frustrations that have been building over time. Because her husband is Pastor, she CANNOT vent to people in the church. And because he is burdened by many OTHER peoples problems, she wants to be a REFUGE for him, not a worry.

Could be wrong. I'm a lay person, not clergy. But haven't we all known frustration? This sister needs our love and prayer support.("Honey" is fine in Texas).
---Donna2277 on 5/22/06


I believe that there is a very real possibility that the "tone" of "a pastor's wife's" responses has been misinterpreted. I hear zeal and passion, not rudeness and bitterness. Let me just say this: whatever you can pick out or point out in another is usually something you can find mirrored in own soul.
---a_teacher on 5/22/06


john, i really liked what you said. To add to johns comment, when people are looking for acceptance from men they will feel rejection from men.. When we look to Christ for acceptance we will not feel the rejection as much. Not to say it doesnt hurt. We have all been rejected at some stage and as in all things we then should look to Christ Jesus. Johns kind comment has made me want to retract my previous blog. I apologise for lashing out at you pastors wife. May God bless you.
---anon on 5/22/06


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Anyone whom claims to be a christian and don't go to church, I would be concerned on their salvation. Anyone whom is saved, has the desire to go to church and fellowship with other believers. To me the reason why God isn't in some churchs is because they don't bring him with them, and some people just go to church just to be seen, bench warmers. God is looking for a bunch of people to worship him but where are they? There not in the field but yet they want to eat at the Master's table.
---Rebecca_D on 5/22/06


2. Although i agree christian church goers are not all that they should be, that is why Christ died for us. We are not perfect in our flesh. I dont go to church because of the people there, I go to praise the Lord and hear the word of God and the testimonies from fellow christians. I love hearing what God is doing in their lives. I just really agree with the previous blogger. Take 15 mins before clicking submit. Such anger and mean comments is not from God.
---anon on 5/22/06


1. pastors wife. i am writing this at the risk of a personal attack from you but am going to say it anyway. The reason many people dont go to your church is maybe because of the way you treat others. I wouldnt want to be involved there just by hearing how you seem to judge people.
---anon on 5/22/06


To John, My grandmother whom raised me never attended church during my life, but you would never met a more God fearing, prayed up woman than she was. She lived a christian life, she loved all and was loved. I would hear her at night praying for me after we went to bed that God would turn me around. She prayed for me for 30 yrs and I became a christian. When you get to heaven you can speak to her.It is good to attend church. She left this life May 1998 at the age of 98.
---Thomas on 5/22/06


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Throughout that whole book, she never left because the "daughters of Jerusalem" were "too much flesh" or had other loves. We need to get past God "visiting" us and over into God "inhabiting" us. When we do, we realize that no matter where we go, He is in us and willing and able to impact those around us, no matter how carnal they are.

I agree with Pastor's wife. Excellent counsel.
---Linda6563 on 5/22/06


"God dont visit most Churches on Sunday morning because he is not invited in. To much flesh and not enough Spirit Filled Christians..."

I find this an interesting statement. Perhaps the God in you wanted to express Himself to these "too much flesh" folks and make Himself known through you. Even the Shulamite dealt with "the daughters of Jerusalem" by describing her Beloved from head to toe. When she got finished, they all wanted Him too.
---Linda6563 on 5/22/06


2. Occasionally that day off should be a Sunday so that he can be a bum on a pew and be spiritually fed by someone else. No-one can always be giving out if they are not taking in. If your husband is a 24-7 pastor and also the handyman and janitor there is little wonder that others do not do anything. They don't need to because he has made it clear than he can do all things and doesn't need any help. At what age will he crack up I wonder?
---another_pastorswife on 5/22/06


1. I really think that you should tone down the aggression pastor's wife and please don't call people honey when you know full well what their name is, it is condescending and not very nice. Also, to prove he is genuine a pastor does not have to work 24-7, in fact, no human being should do that. EVERYONE needs time off during every 24 hours period and everyone needs at least one full day off, not necessarily the same day every week though.
---another_pastorswife on 5/22/06


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Pastors wife. These people have hurt you. I know how you feel. The same thing happens everywhere. I agree, it's rebellion. I have learned (am learning) to love those people too and see to their well being even after they have violently left for some silly little thing. Most never come back but the hurt is gone when I remove rejection by adding love. I still care for them despite the circumstance. I bless you to love these people.
---john on 5/22/06


It is important to acknowledge the difference between the teachings of Jesus and the organized religion of Christanity. There is a large gap between these two, and often the organized religion doesn't follow the teachings of Jesus. While I agree that it is important to have discussions regarding spiritual matters, I feel the true church is within us, not outside of us. A priest, pastor or minister is not necessary to have a relationship with God. This is what Jesus was trying to tell us.
---Grace on 5/22/06


I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. -Gandhi

the greatest single cause of atheism in the world today
Is christians who acknowledge jesus with their lips
Then walk out the door and deny him by their lifestyle - DC Talk

Do we represent God to unbelievers, do we shine his love to them no matter how great the sin? Jesus spent time with the prostitutes and tax collectors, do we make people like this comfortable in our churches?
---Robyn on 5/22/06


....and as soon as thier feelings get hurt, they storm out the door claiming GOD is leading them elsewhere- HOGWASH. The church we are planted in should be just as important a decision as who we MARRY these days. The underlying reason behind people who do not faithfully attend a local church is rebellion. "Ain't no pastor gonna tell ME how to live!" - The word calls those who won't stand correction or rebuke, bastards. Look it up
---Pastors_wife on 12/9/05


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Candice, I THINK what you're saying is that some churches are not quite in line with God's plan for the local church, so, it's dangerous to attend church??? (not sure) Anyway, that is exactly why a decision like the church we attend should be so important to us that we allow GOD TO MAKE IT FOR US, and don't go around, as soooo many do, "looking" for a church. Usually when someone says that, they actually mean they are hopping around till they find one THEY are comfortable in. -NOT God's will
---Pastors_wife on 12/9/05


As I was re-reading your org. question you posted, It says we shall not forsake the gathering of fellowship & worship. YES we do need others around us that follow our father in heaven to uplifet us,encourage us, & we can learn from the Pastor whom is suppose to help "sheperd"the flock, but some churches outthere they are dwindeling in attendence because of their fruitage,& a wolf could be among the midst of them & as Gods sheep, WE do not want to be taken in the opposite teachings. IMHO.
---Candice on 12/9/05


I agree with Pastor's Wife.
---Rebecca_D on 12/9/05


PastorsWife,I have been to a big mainstream non-denom. church & have been a member of a Baptist church for over 2 yrs, point is what I observed was a lot of "social "lessons mixed in with the bible lesson itself, like this mainstream church ,the non-denom, had a stage & theatrical productions for their upcomming annoucements & made everthing look like a broadway show. Where I attend today, though we are growing, stick strictly to scripture & no "theatrical shows"
---Candice on 12/9/05


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But you will never mature as a 'CHRISTIN' unless you are taught the word of God by a shepherd placed over you in spiritual authority. That's why a lot of people have a problem going to a church, they have a problem with submitting to any kind of authority- including God's
---Pastors_wife on 12/9/05


Mima, sorry, but you wouldn't be asked to do ANYTHING in the church my husband pastors. I can just about imagine what kind of "men of God" these 'Pastors' are who are letting someone who can't even manage to keep a simple commandment into their pulpits to speak into the lives of their flock. Shame on them
---Pastors_wife on 12/9/05


The "Church" is the entire "Body of Christ" ... not a denomination. Salvation is confession, repentance, and acceptance of Jesus Christ as Lord of your life. It is important to "fellowship" with other Christians. We learn from other men and women of God. But going to a building called a church will not save anyone. Give your life to Jesus and the Holy Spirit who indwells you will began to lead you, shape you, and guide you as you began to mature as a Christin.
---Vel on 11/10/05


I've pastored the same church for about 18 years.I have NEVER seen lasting success in ANY Christian who has stopped going to meetings for a long time. They have all fallen by the wayside. Most have destroyed their lives and have rebellious offspring that don't serve God either. Not going to church is no better than playing Russian Roulette with you and your family. God has ordained the meeting place for a good purpose. Go to give and it shall be given unto you.
---john on 11/10/05


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Most churches have failed to fulfill the great commission. While I no longer attend a church I am sometimes ask to speak at different chiurches. I am ask to attend baptistings sometimes (of people the LORD has saved by my witness) and a few pastors ask me to give the invitation when I am at their churches.--- mima 11/9/2005
---mima on 11/9/05


and, cont'd,

Lastly, God will stir in me, the time to attend church again, sometimes, we all walk in a 'desert', yet in that desert, Christ is there, and we are under NO CONDEMNATION.

How I long to see the same passion is us (so called 'take up our crosses daily christians...to die for if necessary) as those who do not believe in Christ, and man, when a non believer wants something, they are hell bent on getting heard, pity we dont do the same for Christ.
---bethany on 9/27/05


and, continued...
"Lord, Lord, didnt we raise the dead and heal the sick"..and Jesus replies, "Depart from Me, you never knew Me!"

Also, "forsake not the gathering of the brethren", lets remember the rest of the verse "lest you be encouraged", so if you need encouraging and enjoy church, thats great, go to church.

Its the Christ in us, that other's recognise, evidence of our walk with God.
---bethany on 9/27/05


Rebecca, I disagree with you completely.

I don't attend church anymore - on a regular basis, and Im an Evangelist!

However, I do 'listen' and 'read' on line most days to audio/study from the likes of Joyce Meyer, Jesse Du Plantis, Chuck Missler, Reinhart Bonke etc.

I know my God, and He knows me, and personally, the things I have learnt 'out of church' from the above christian preachers is far more interesting to 'me' than church.
---bethany on 9/27/05


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If one is truely saved, then God gives them a desire to go to church. If they don't have a desire to go to church and rather stay home or go elsewhere, chances are they never got saved to begin with.
---Rebecca_D on 9/22/05


Well I believe alot of people should not say that they are christians. You should be able to tell a christain by the way they act and the things they do they shouldn't have to tell you they are a christian. I believe the ones that doesn't like to fellowship are ashame of the gospel. And no one should be ashame to tell someone about the man who created them.
---Tamika on 9/22/05


read ACTS what was done in the "church" this is the way its still supposed to be,
unfortunately,a lot of Christians are sleepers, attend do nothing else or let the world get in the way,we need to pray for the shepherds of the flocks,be united serve Christ as it says in Acts 1:8
let Jesus Christs love and Jesus be who we focus on first,all things will come together
---michele on 9/21/05


LOL, OK Bethany sweetie, whatever :)
---Pastors_wife on 9/21/05


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Pastor's wife, I really think you need to leave this subject alone for a while. Take a break then re-read all you have said and dwell on your comments. Much of what you say is absolutely correct but there is a way of saying and a way of not saying things. Perhaps next time you post you could read through and wait 15 minutes before clicking the submit button. That will give you time to reflect and possibly change things.
---Xanthi on 9/21/05


Pastor's wife, shame on you.

You post reeks of sarcasim, not a wise display to voice in such a way - Proverbs 31.

I suggest you seek to grow in maturity with God, so other's comments, and where they are in God, are answered with the grace of a woman who is secure in her God.
---bethany on 9/20/05


2. Of course there is reasons why some don't go that are real. But I am speaking about the one's that can and don't. I believe when we hang around each other more, we learn more, stay closer to the things of God, are in the presence of God more, and our character changes more. It is only my opinion. We should not force anyone to go. It has to come from within us. We should want more of Christ. That is our New Nature.
---Lupe2618a on 9/20/05


I believe that it is God's will to attend church, to fellowship, pray, worship and work together. Some people are not really serious about been closer to God. They want a part of God but don't want to give up on the others things. They make a commitment for Christ but want it on their terms. I believe as I told brother Co-ach that Pastors should worry about the one's saved and the others let God take care of them. No one can make another love God more. They always justify why they don't go.
---Lupe2618 on 9/20/05


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Shelly dear, You didn't offend me in the least bit. I'm USED to people who've never Pastored a day in their lives trying to tell my husband how to do it. There IS order in this church, that's why people such as yourself get mad and leave. You don't seem to know WHAT you want in a Pastor- first you complain because of ones that bash people, then you say my husband isnt anointed because he doesn't lay up and make everybody else do everything- SO WHICH IS IT HONEY?! ;)
---Pastors_Wife on 9/17/05


Tsuanne, are fake.Wordly people might call them christain posers.
---sun on 9/17/05


Pastors_wife
you seem to have gotten upset about my comment and im sorry if i offended you. Maybe if your husband had order in his church he would not have to do everyone's job if he is Anointed to Pastor then he shouldnt be running all over town doing things others are called to do he should appoint Holy Ghost filled Christians to do certain things...but i find many Pastors wont do this because it takes to much controll out of their hands.
---Shelly on 9/17/05


Unfortunately today you will find many In name only Christians. They claim the title but you don't see any obedience to the word of God in their lives. Jesus said "If you love me obey me" Where real truth is being preached there will be a hunger to return again and again to eat more of the bread of life.
---Tsuanne on 9/16/05


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Shelly, if a Pastor is genuine, his job is 24-7. If he is tied up all day every day on another job, that takes away time from where his heart truly is- praying for YOU, studying, seeking God for direction for YOU, calling YOU, visiting and praying for YOU when YOU'RE sick, and added to all this, he's the church maintenance man and janitor because the sheep are too busy. Just because a few fat-cat 'preachers' have turned the ministry into a lucritive business venture, doesn't mean they're ALL like that
---Pastors_Wife on 9/16/05


You don't need to physically sit in a man-made building to pray or worship God. Church is a means to belong to a fellowship, but that alone won't make you a better Christian.
---Jim on 9/16/05


"Church" is an everyday event for me. I daily read the Word and fellowship every day with believers, am an interdenominational intercessory prayer warrior, belong to a healing ministry, do Bible study with young women, praise God constantly by faith, word and deed, am a missions coordinator and phone counsel believers. A missionary/spiritual director has earthly authority over me and my best friend is clergy. Lately God has not called me into a building.
---Elsie on 9/16/05


i have visited many churches, but unfortunately i have found most of them to be apostate and fallen away from the truth. They wrongly preach the O.T. letter of the law, and not rightly preach the N.T. spirit of grace. Not all churches are "houses of prayer". When a parishoner goes to church for sanctuary, grace or help, but instead they find nothing but worldliness, solicitations for money or quenching of the Spirit, would you expect them to attend?
---Eloy on 9/16/05


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Pastor's_Wife
in my opinion God is very dissatisfied with some's so called church...Why....because to many are about bashing,socializing,dead,inspectors of fruitless sheep,programmed,i can go on and on. God dont visit most Churches on Sunday morning because he is not invited in. To much flesh and not enough Spirit Filled Christians.....and every Pastor needs to Work a job if he expects his flock to work and pay tithes ..........Amen
---shelly on 9/16/05


I think maybe our selfishness is what keeps us from attending church. I have kept going, but there are still times when I slip into the the trap of "what can I get from this?" thinking. If we would start thinking, what can I contribute to this, maybe we would be going to smaller churches that want to reach the community they are in with the love of Christ.
---Julie3763 on 9/15/05


Candice: "Most" mainstream churches you've been to? How MANY have you been to? That's why so many are disilusioned with the "church", because they take it upon themselves to church-shop, looking for just the right one. Like Goldilocks- "THIS one's too hard, THIS one's too soft, THIS one's juuuust right!" -If people would pray and let the LORD put them where HE wants them to SERVE, they wouldn't have to got through all that.
---Pastors_Wife on 9/15/05


Yes, we are told not to forsake the assembles of like believers but to be there with them studying the word, encouraging others and worshipping the Lord in songs and prayer. Most of us need a little help when it comes to singing and praying. That's what friends are for!
---Pierr7958 on 9/14/05


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Most mainstream churches I have gone to are falling into the "wordls"view, though they won't admit to it, there for the people not wanting to go away from the gospel,for what it is meant, actually turn away from the church itself.
---candice on 9/14/05


Dear Pastor's Wife,
We need to attend Church more today, than ever. If, we don't attend Church, The Devil will make sure, that, we won't be "Christians" for long!
Ruby
---Ruby on 9/14/05


well coming from several church experiences that have been mortifying, maybe the "church" should step back and stop treating people so poorly. Disgust at what one person might wear.. or way they smell, or what kind of car they drive. It is the church itself that drives people away, Keeping close to God himself makes attending those kinds of churches tolerable. IMHO.
---Kari on 9/14/05


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