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What Is Replacement Theology

What does the term 'replacement theology' mean? What is being replaced and with what is it being replaced?

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****YOu may not. But Dispensationalism pre trib rapture does. Good Christians will get to escape tribulation because GOD looks after them while Jews and other Christians will have to undergo tribulation***

Here is the issue. The Church, REAL CHRISTIANS both Jew and Gentile, will not endure the wrath of God during the tribulation, because the CHURCH will be taken out of the way so that the promises to Israel can then be fulfilled, while those spoken of in Isaiah and Acts..strangers/foreigners,/RESIDUE of men (absolutely not a description of the CHURCH) The Church, Christ's Body is never described as strangers, foreigners,residue. WE are a NEW CREATION, no longer male or female, bond or free, Jew OR Gentile.
---kathr4453 on 9/6/08


****Isaiah 14 applies to the church after the second coming not now***


Samuel, the beginning of Isaiah 14 is

I WILL YET CHOOSE JACOB,

Now, Jacob is NOT the Church. It does not read...I will YET Choose the Church.

How silly is that!!!!

And WE have NO LAND to be brought back to....We were never scattered from any land to return to!

JACOB refers to Israel.

The Church is not the Spiritual descendents of Jacob, but the spiritual children of Abraham
---kathr4453 on 9/5/08


Samuel I. do not want to leave the impression that I believe Jewish people as a whole are second-class followers of the Lord Jesus Christ.
mima

YOu may not. But Dispensationalism pre trib rapture does. Good Christians will get to escape tribulation because GOD looks after them while Jews and other Christians will have to undergo tribulation.

Unlike the earlier Christians who died for their faith or the 3,000 Chiristians who are martyred every year for their faith. These pre trib are taught they are super special and Matthew 5 does not apply to them.
---Samuel on 9/4/08


Samuel that is not true. Please read Isaiah 14.

When Jesus returns and establishes HIS Kingdom on earth for 1000 Years, headquartered in Jerusalem...ZION, the WHOLE EARTH will be at peace.

However, before then there is no peace on this earth, and won't be until then.

To say, as you seem to be saying, we now have peace on earth, one must be blind to truth.

HE IS the Prince of Peace.... and when He returns then the Government wil be upon HIS shoulders....not ours!
---kathr4453

Isaiah 14 applies to the church after the second coming not now. We have peace in our hearts now. But we will inherit the Whole earth in peace. Matt 5. There will be a new heaven and a new earth on which we dwell. REV 21:1
---Samuel on 9/4/08


Please post:

Samuel, the meek may one day inherit the earth, however the CHURCH/ the sons of God, Born Again, whom Christ has redeemed and purchased with His BLOOD will inherit something far more then the earth.Please read what Peter says to those IN CHRIST:


1 Peter 1:3
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

I've set my faith on HIGHER GROUND!!!! Seated with Christ in HEAVENLY PLACES IN CHRIST JESUS!!!
---kathr4453 on 9/4/08




***Replacement Theology was taught by the reformation for over a Century***

And the Promises to Israel have been taught from Scripture for nearly 6000 years. Beginning in Genesis 3:15. There is more to that verse to be fulfilled, namely the final overthrow of Satan ,not yet fulfilled.

Those during the reformation were unfortunately anti-semitic, who lived by SIGHT and not by faith..

WE now see the fulfilling of scripture bringing Israel back to the Land. Because the reformers couldn't SEE it happening...they came up with their own replacement theology...including America as the NEW Promise Land and Americans are God's NEW Chosen People, stated in the Book "The Light and the Glory."....It's a lie!
---kathr4453 on 9/4/08


***The land has now extened to the whole Earth. Matthew 5,5***

Samuel that is not true. Please read Isaiah 14.

When Jesus returns and establishes HIS Kingdom on earth for 1000 Years, headquartered in Jerusalem...ZION, the WHOLE EARTH will be at peace.

However, before then there is no peace on this earth, and won't be until then.

To say, as you seem to be saying, we now have peace on earth, one must be blind to truth.

HE IS the Prince of Peace.... and when He returns then the Government wil be upon HIS shoulders....not ours!
---kathr4453 on 9/3/08


Samuel I. do not want to leave the impression that I believe Jewish people as a whole are second-class followers of the Lord Jesus Christ. All of the Jewish people with the exception of the messianic Jews(those who have received the Lord Jesus Christ as their messiah and personal savior
are LOST. They are not followers of Jesus Christ of any class and they do not claim to be so.
---mima on 9/3/08


I always ask people who believe in replacement theology(the church has replaced Israel) what about the land?
... Replacement theology is a twisted teaching, an open denial of the special relationship that exists between Israel and Almighty God.
mima

The land has now extened to the whole Earth. Matthew 5,5

Replacement Theology was taught by the reformation for over a Century. Dispensationalism is new. The words of JESUS teaches replacement. Matthew 21:43 It is not a denial of the First Covenant. Or of the special relationship. Dispensationalism makes Jews second class followers of GOD.
---Samuel on 9/3/08


Christians are the true Israel of God: and we Christians, like our Christ, dwell throughout the land. And there is an epoch coming where the sky will be parted and the trumpet of God will sound, and every eye will see and every ear will hear the majestic coming of Christ, and they will look upon him whom they pierced and they will cry out for the rocks to fall upon them for to hide them from him whom is coming in the clouds in all his blinding glory with all the host of heaven.
---Eloy on 9/2/08




I always ask people who believe in replacement theology(the church has replaced Israel) what about the land?
No one can deny that the land of Israel plays a great role in understanding Israel. What rule exactly does the land play with the church? Replacement theology is a twisted teaching, an open denial of the special relationship that exists between Israel and Almighty God.
---mima on 9/2/08


All Sabbath Keepers regardless of their denominational ties....JW, Mormons, SDA, Armstrongism, etc, do not believe in the rapture because they ALL believe THEY are the ones in fear of taking that horrible flight on the Sabbath in Matthew 24.

To say this chapter belongs to Israel, they would have to admit they are not Israel's replacement.

What a shame they all live in fear of that horrible day of God's wrath.
kathr4453

I live in hope of the Coming of JESUS the Rapture when after the Tribulation JESUS comes again. Wrath falls on the wicked. So why should I fear living then? Matthew 24 is for the church. It is a warning to us. Unless you think false antichrists do not exist. Or that we are not to preach the gospel.
---Samuel on 9/2/08


Jesus said he would come back after the tribulation in Matthew 24 and that settles this issue. About replacement theology, if it is explained correctly it is the truth. But so many mix it with pre-tribism, mid-tribism, and dual covenant theology and produce a false interpretation of replacement theology. I also reject these inventions of men, but I do believe in Biblical Replacement Theology. After all, did God divorce Israel as his wife and replace her with the Church? Or does the trinity each have their own and separate wife: The Father married to Israel, the Son married to the Church, and the Holy Spirit to get his wife in some future eternal new creation?
---Gary on 9/1/08


jerry6593, Thanks for the fine complement. It seems those who know, knows those who know also. Ah.... Hal my pal.
Now to show you how off base you are you said to compare the Bible to history, and let it interpret itself.
Now that is strange because God said to compare Scripture to Scripture and to Rightly Divide the Word of Truth. If you did that you would see the same things that my pal Hal and I have seen.
--> Samuel said, "Pretrib rapture theology did not exist before Darby."
Oh yes it did. Many may not have seen it but it did.
---Elder on 8/30/08


****Elder: You sound just like Hal Lindsey. I like to watch his show on TV, until he talks about prophecy.***


What I have come to recognize is this. All Sabbath Keepers regardless of their denominational ties....JW, Mormons, SDA, Armstrongism, etc, do not believe in the rapture because they ALL believe THEY are the ones in fear of taking that horrible flight on the Sabbath spoken in Matthew 24.

OH my, and where will they run to.....

To say this chapter belongs to Israel, they would have to admit they are not Israel's replacement. They run to the mountains in fear and trembling ....WE RAN TO JESUS CHRIST and are secure IN HIM!

What a shame they all live in fear of that horrible day of God's wrath.
---kathr4453 on 8/27/08


Good point Mark people fail in working their way to heaven. When the only true way is by the Grace of GOD. Also Elder I am glad we agree that we are saved only by Grace.

So you do not agree with the Darby.
1 Gen. 1:28 Innocence
2 Gen. 3:7 Conscience or moral responsibility
3 Gen. 8:15 Human Government
4 Gen. 12:1 Promise
5 Ex. 19:1 Law
6 Acts 2:1 Church
7 Rev. 20:4 Kingdom

But that is the basis of Pretrib rapture theology. It did not exist before Darby.
---Samuel on 8/27/08


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I believe that the term "replacement theology" is an antiChrist phrase created by people whom do not accept the truth that the Gentile Christians have replaced the antiChrist jews. Jesus said to the Jews, "You all are from the father who's devil, and the desires of your father you all will do. Therefore say I to you, The kingdom of God will be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forward the fruits thereof. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you all Christ's, then are you all Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." John 8:44+ Matthew 21:43+ Galatians 3:27-29.
---Eloy on 8/25/08


Samuel, People since the fall of Adam have been saved by grace through faith in the coming Christ or in Christ that has come. The Covenant of works is what human beings from Adam to the present are inescapably members of. People may refuse to knowledge the existence of such a covenant but they can never escape it. All human beings are in a covenant relationship with God, either as covenant breakers or keepers. The covenant of works is the basis of our need of redemption, because we have violated it, and our hope of redemption, because Christ has fulfilled its terms for us. When Adam fell into sin, God in His mercy added a new Covenant of Grace by which salvation became possible and actual.
---Mark_V. on 8/25/08


Elder_Praise God!
Good Job Brother, Now you rolling with the Big Boy's!
You've been studying and i see the Lord has enlightened you on somethings.
You have given me great joy this morning,
The truth is a sweet savor on the lips of his Children, thank you!
YLBD
---Duane_Dudley_Martin on 8/25/08


Elder: You sound just like Hal Lindsey. I like to watch his show on TV, until he talks about prophecy. Then I turn him off because he doesn't know what he is talking about. Let's stick to the Bible, compare it to history, and let it interpret itself.
---jerry6593 on 8/23/08


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3.
Here is something else to consider.
Israel was recognized as a Nation in 1948. They just celebrated their 60th birthday as a nation in 2008. Jesus said this generation shall not pass away until these things have been fulfilled, Matt 24:34. A generation is considered 70 years biblically. See Psm 90:10. The Hebrew word used here is Shibim." It means seventy.
The 70 Weeks issue is revealed in Dan 9:24-27. Other Biblical references must be used to
determine what is being said here. This is to include Daniels visions dealing with
Nebuchadnezzars dream, Belshazzars hand writing on the wall, the vision of the four beast, and the seventy weeks themselves. Read the book of Daniel.
---Elder on 8/21/08


2.
5. 9:1-12 Demons invade the 1st time
6. 9:13-21 Demons invade the 2nd time
7. 11: 15-19 The King Jesus is Coming. This is the 2nd coming warning. The 7 Vial Judgement then comes.
Notice the Church is gone, Rev 3:22-4:1 and I Thess 4:15-13-18.
We do not see the I Thess event taking place in the Revelation. That is because it is a separate event. Church Age Christians will not go through the Tribulation, I Thess 5:9-10.
Those who get Saved after the Rapture will remain on earth and have to Endure till the End, Matt 24:13. In Matt 24 the Disciples didnt ask about the Rapture but the 2nd Coming. Therefore we have the answers of Jesus on the subject of the 2nd Coming.
---Elder on 8/21/08


"Because Revelation is not linear it repeats itself." Samuel
It would appear so if you didn't understand how Revelation is laid out.
It would sound like the Bowl, Vial and Trumpet Judgements are the same. That cannot be as one opens the other.
It appears the same rider is on a white horse in Rev 6:2 and Rev 19:11, according to linear view. It is not so. Rev 6:2 is Satan and Rev 19:11 is Jesus.
Forget Darby. The "Catching Away" is not the bringing back.
Age of Law people got Saved the same way we do, by trusting in Christ. They looked forward we look backward.
The ages were Law, Prophets, Grace/Church and coming Endurance. That will come after the Rapture. We are not, nor, never have been in that age.
---Elder on 8/21/08


Good question Jerry. Lee replacement Theology has to do with Eschatolgy. Pre trib are against it. Post trib are for it.

Elder

(Samuel it is plain to see that you don't understand the Ages. Do you realize that Jesus is the God of the Ages.)

Yes JESUS is GOD. I believe in the trinity. I also understand Darby's system. I do not agree with it.

(I never said there was an age of working to heaven. You misunderstand.)

The age of the law is what it is called and that was done away with so Grace could come in. Many say this but that makes a barrier not found in Scripture. So you agree that in the age of law people were saved by Grace? If Grace existed then with the law why is grace without the law taught today?
---Samuel on 8/21/08


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Elder

(Tell me this, in I Thess 4 The dead and alive Christians are called up to meet the Lord in the air.)

This is the Second coming.

(In Rev 19:1-10 many people attending the marriage supper of the Lamb.) True.

(Then in Rev 19:11-21 we see the Second Coming and the next to last battle on the earth.)

Because Revelation is not linear it repeats itself.
---Samuel on 8/21/08


Elder: I respect you greatly, but the linkage of the catching up (rapture) to Jesus' second coming in 1Th 4:16,17 is undeniable. How can you dismiss it? And where in the Bible is a 7-year tribulation specifically mentioned?
---jerry6593 on 8/21/08


Samuel it is plain to see that you don't understand the Ages. Do you realize that Jesus is the God of the Ages.
I never said there was an age of working to heaven. You misunderstand.
Tell me this, in I Thess 4 The dead and alive Christians are called up to meet the Lord in the air.
In Rev 19:1-10 many people attending the marriage supper of the Lamb.
Then in Rev 19:11-21 we see the Second Coming and the next to last battle on the earth.
1. Rapture
2. Bema Judgement
3. Marriage supper of the Lamb in heaven
4. Second Coming
5. 1000 years Ch 20:1-
6. 20:7 Satan destroyed and the next to last battle on earth
7. 20:11 The Great White Throne and final Judgement.
Where is the Bema Judgement if the above is wrong?
---Elder on 8/20/08


The subject of this tread is suppose to be replacement theology but it appears that we are into eschatology instead. Perhaps someone should open a new thread and discuss the various beliefs on the events of the end times.
---Lee1538 on 8/20/08


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Elder said.

(The coming, "catching away/Rapture" is plainly posted in the Bible for anyone to see.)

No

(Here's how the events occur,
1. Church/Age of Grace, we are here today)

Man has always been saved by Grace. No one has ever worked their way to heaven.

(2. The revealed catching away)

The Second coming of JESUS is the rapture.

(3. Tribulation, 7 years)

This happen before the Rapture not after. No one is left alive.

(4. Second Coming of Jesus, with the Bride)

The Second coming is to come get the Bride.

(5. 1000 year reign
6. The Final Revolt of Satan
7. The Final Judgement
8. Eternity Future. Forever with the Lord.) All True.
---Samuel on 8/20/08


Jerry I must have misunderstood your statement. That is why I answered like I did.
I agree there is NO SECRET Rapture. The coming, "catching away/Rapture" is plainly posted in the Bible for anyone to see.
Here's how the events occur,
1. The Church/Age of Grace, we are here today
2. The revealed catching away
3. The Tribulation, 7 years
4. The Second Coming of Jesus, with the Bride
5. The 1000 year reign
6. The Final Revolt of Satan
7. The Final Judgement
8. Eternity Future. Forever with the Lord.
---Elder on 8/20/08


Elder: Glad you're not reading that trash. I didn't think you were, but was merely keying off your statement "Study your bibles and stop reading other peoples thoughts and cult books." I concur wholeheartedly. I think that all the modern-day secret rapture theology is non-biblical. I believe that the linkage of the catching up (rapture) to Jesus' second coming in 1Th 4:16,17 is undeniable. I don't think that there is an immediate return of the saved to earth. Rev. indicates that we will reign with Jesus 1000 years, then return to the earth made new in the New Jerusalem. The wicked dead will then be resurrected and destroyed in the lake of fire. Jesus brings His reward with Him at His second coming. There is no second chance.
---jerry6593 on 8/19/08


"Replacement Theology", what will Satan and non-common sense persons come up with next? The Bible is clear, Jesus is clear, the Old and New Testament is clear! Amazing, where did this demonic, make it up during time of Satan inspired idle time boredom, come from? More stupidity and junk. God proves Himself over and over again to be long suffering in light of the ages of made up junk about Him, His Truth and Word. Those who are left behind are those who reject Jesus Christ. Its Simple. If a person rejects Christ after being given every opportunity, their being "left behind" has already happened. Their "end time event" has taken place. Again, simple as that. Remember, God is just and judges justly.
---Robert on 8/18/08


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jerry6593 I have never read any of the "Left Behind" series. Not because they are no good but because I read very little fiction. If I want to read fiction I buy a Newspaper.
If your Bible doesn't teach two separate events then you need another one. Or, maybe you need to read according to the instruction given in II Tim 2:15.
When does the Marriage of the Lamb take place?
When does the Bema Judgement take place?
The Church Age ends in Rev 3:22- 4:1. There is the Tribulation and the Second Coming in Rev 19. The Scriptures do not teach anyone being caught up and then turning around and coming right back.
Have you ever heard of the Age of Endurance? Jesus spoke of it in Matt 24. That is during the Tribulation.
---Elder on 8/18/08


Elder: "The Catching away/Rapture and the Second Coming are two different events."

That's not what my Bible says.

1Th 4:16,17 For THE LORD HIMSELF SHALL DESCEND from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then WE which are alive and remain SHALL BE CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Few Bible doctrines are this clear. Stop reading those "Left Behind" books - they're fiction.
---jerry6593 on 8/18/08


Thank You Lee,

Yep! The Chief of sinners when it comes to spelling!!!! That's me!!!!!


LOL
---kathr4453 on 8/13/08


kathr4453 - You certainly meant a 'chaste virgin' not a 'chase virgin'! LOL
---Lee1538 on 8/13/08


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MarkV, Replacement Theology does't recognize Israel at the end of the age as totally separate.....based upon.... yes...repentance leading to THEIR restoration.... of what???.....when they were disobedient and scattered.

The Church has never been disobedient/scattered, needing restoration.


The Church is a Chase Virgin betrothed to Jesus Christ,and is NOT the Nation of Isreal who is the wife of the Lord. The Church is not a Nation...we are HIS BODY..Bone of His Bone, flesh of His Flesh. Heavenly.

.

Psalm 83:4
They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation, that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance.

God said:

READ Romans 11
---kathr4453 on 8/12/08


Kathr, I answered you kindly to what I understood as Scripture. I gave the reasons and Scriptures. I tried not talk about personal things as Me, you, Luther or any other person, if I don't have to, to prove what I said. On the other hand you asked me, "Are God's laws and ordinances written in your heart? Are you Keeping them? Why would you ask me that? What does that have to do with Israel's restoration? What is your point? I still don't really know. There has to be a point or else we are just going around and around. Why don't you just say what you want to say or want me to agree with? If I don't then we can move on.
---Mark_V. on 8/9/08


Mark, as Isaac was...so are WE...chidren of Promise. Galatians!

Unfortunately those who believe in Replacement Theology/Covenant Theology, believe there is only ONE Covenant...the New one....failing to realize the Everlasting Covenant PROCLAIMED in Genesis 3:15 and again PROCLAIMED again to Abraham were unconditional based on FAITH alone...not restoration.

What did Isaac do to secure his birth...NOTHING.....What did Abraham do...well, he actualy messed up, bringing in Ishmael..but it didn't thwart the Birth of Isaac in any way...because Isaac was not condtional.

The BLOOD is in the Everlasting Covenant...and is secured in the New

The NEW does not override the Everlasting, only secures it.
---kathr4453 on 8/9/08


Kat ALL MEN needed to be re-stored NOT JUST ISRAEL.

God did not sacrifice his ONLY BEGOTTEN SON for ISRAEL, "God so loved the WORLD.."

EVERYONE IS INCLUDED in the BLESSING of God's GRACE, EVERYONE is in NEED of a REDEMPTION

"ALL HAVE SINNED AND COME SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD" Ro 3:23.

Kat-"Are God's LAWS and ORDINANCES written in your heart?"

BELIEVERS IN CHRIST have the Torah written in their HEARTS WITHOUT the ORDINANCE.

Every ordinance of the Ceremonial Law WAS A FORESHADOW,POINTED to Christ and His work of saving man from sin. ALL OF THESE ENDED ON THE CROSS, so that the Law of God can be WRITTEN in the HEARTS of men NOT IN STONES.
---gracynluv on 8/8/08


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MarkV, You did not pre-exist to be restored..Israel did/does.

There are 8 Covenants, and none but the Law of Moses has been replaced with something BETTER...why because THEY couldn't keep the old. You were never asked to keep the Old..

The Church is part of the Abrahamic Covenant,re: Romans 4 and Galatians.

But even with that, we don't inherit ALL of the Covenant with Abraham...RE: Land...

If God has put His Spirit in us to KEEP His statutes and ORDINANCES, then yes, we must keep these too..including Sabbath Keeping..and this will be exactly that when Israel comes into her full blessing RESTORED TO THE LAND during the Kingdom Reign.

So, Are God's LAWS and ORDINANCES written in your heart? are you KEEPING THEM?
---kathr4453 on 8/8/08


Yes Kat God was disappointed of the Nation of Israel, or he would NOT HAVE RE-NEWED THE WEDDING CONTRACT, with the BLOOD OF CHRIST!

Christ came to ESTABLISH forever the eternal, once-for-all NEW COVENANT , a last will and testament that could only go into effect with his death on the altar of the Cross.(HEB 8:6-10) OLD COVENANT IS ANNULED!

God's promise to Abraham was not limited to a small and ancient people in the Middle East. It extends far into the future, and it is NOT limited by national boundaries. From the beginning, God designed this promise to bring blessings to ALL NATIONS. That is His purpose.
---gracynluv on 8/8/08


Kathr, I again say on this blog it is the same New Covenant that we are now yet Israel's time has not come yet for restoration. The difference is that the Spirit is bringing the Gentiles now, the nation of Israel, as a whole, has not been poured with the Spirit yet. I believe what you are saying is that there is a special other Covenant to come, but this is it. What does Jeremiah say, "Because you would never approach God on your own, unless you were brought or invited, "And you shall be my people, and I will be your God." in other words, God is saying, "I will do the unthinkable, I will draw you to Me, and who would ever think to do that, without a proper invitation?
---Mark_V. on 8/8/08


*******God was a disappointed Bridegroom when the Jews failed to keep the old laws. But Paul, another Jew, explained the marriage by saying, "This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the Church" (Eph 5:32).******

Gracy, Read Romans 5.

Was God really Disappointed? Really? The Wife of the Lord, Israel, brough forth Jesus Christ.....as prophesied while they were in sin...scattered.....etc.

Gracy, you see a small part of the whole, but not the WHOLE plan of redemption, starting from the fall of Adam and Eve, until everything including the Kingdom Reign delivered up to the Father, that GOD will be all in all. 1 Corinthians 15.
---kathr4453 on 8/8/08


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Kat you're speaking like one of the Pharisees Jesus was dealing with in his time.

" I want my land...it Comes with My NC Promise...where is it?"
---kathr4453 on 8/7/08

They TOO with there unbelieving hearts wanted a Messiah that would re-store the PHYSICAL LAND.

The truth IS the Scriptures plainly teach that the nation of Israel was set aside at Calvary and that God's dealing with them now is the SAME as His dealings with the Gentiles:

"For THERE IS NO RESPECT OF PERSON WITH GOD: there is NO DIFFERENCE between Jew and Gentile for ALL HAVE SIN and come short of the glory of God" (Rom 2:1, 3:22-23).
---gracynluv on 8/7/08


****Kat I don't understand, please clarify what you said, sounds to me that you are assuming Christ is dealing with two different covenant in the NT. The Nation of Israel, and the Church.***



The Church was Never promised land or restoration to the Land.

But if you believe ALL OF Ezekiel 36 New Covenant belongs to the Chruch, why aren't YOU living out your dream come true in Israel today fulfilling Ezekiel 36 in YOUR lifetime? If this NC Promise began 2000 years ago, WOW...did we all got stiffed here? Is God a liar. I want my land...it Comes with My NC Promise...where is it?
---kathr4453 on 8/7/08


Yes Kat I UNDERSTAND The relationship of God and Israel has always been a marriage.

Or I would not have said "The only thing that's been REPLACED IS The MARRIAGE CONTRACT (TORAH) that was BROKEN by the Israel/Kahal / Ekklesia of the OT"!

The book of Hosea spells that out clearly, I know.. And Jeremiah's language in announcing the NEW COVENANT is very interesting, he says, "My covenant they break, although I was a HUSBAND unto them" (31:32). God was a disappointed Bridegroom when the Jews failed to keep the old laws. But Paul, another Jew, explained the marriage by saying, "This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the Church" (Eph 5:32).
---gracynluv on 8/7/08


****The only thing that's been REPLACED IS The marriage contract (TORAH) that was broken by the Israel/church / Kahal / Ekklesia of the OT because it was written upon a HEART OF STONE which breaks the Torah of God (Zech 7:11-13)****

Please read Hosea concerning God and Israel His Wife. GOD HATES DIVORCE.....Hosea is a story of Israel's unfaithfulness Gomer is a type of Israel...yet, God(Hosea)continually takes them back.


Conclusion at the end of Hosea

4I will heal their backsliding,I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away from him.

Hosea is NOT a story of the Church. God has never been angry with the Church...

Hosea is EXCLUSIVELY about Israel's unfaithfulness and reconciliation!
---kathr4453 on 8/7/08


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The teaching of the Pretribulation Rapture theory depends on the opposite of Replacement Theology. But since there is no biblical foundaion for the seperation of Israel and the church they often just say it is so with no back up.

Nasb Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Means what it says. All must be one in JESUS to be saved. There is no other way of salvation.
---Samuel on 8/6/08


We inherit something all together different...co-heir ship with Christ.
---kathr4453 on 8/6/08

Kat I don't understand, please clarify what you said, sounds to me that you are assuming Christ is dealing with two different covenant in the NT. The Nation of Israel, and the Church.

If so then you are contradicting the bible.

In Heb 8:6-7 It is clear that the Old Covenant is annuled: " For if the FIRST COVENANT had been faultless, there would have been NO occasion sought FOR A SECOND".

"I will put my laws into their minds and write it on the hearts. And I will be their God and they shall be My people. (Heb 8: 10). Believers IN Christ,consisting of Jew and Gentiles are God's people now.
---gracynluv on 8/6/08


Has'nt anyone ever read Romans 11? In no way has Israel been replaced. Atonement is the only way to be saved. Yeshua's death is the ony sacrifice for sin. Therefore, their religion today has none after the temple destroyed in 70AD. So we must still witness Christ(MASHIACH) to them. God is still dealing with them. They are scattered with the Gentiles and have different sects and groups. He simply Has them "in His promise"...
---yochanon on 8/6/08


****Biblically, the church is Israel and Israel is the church ****

No Gracy, When the Church returns with Jesus to reign and rule during the Millennial Kingdom Reign, Israel will have received their promise of Ezekiel 36........therefore we are not the same.

The church ( now consisting of both Jew ans Gentile making one NEW MAN and spiritually is neither Jew or Gentile IN CHRIST, has a Heavenly Calling......please read Philippians 3.

Those who go through the Great tribulation...and those gentiles who pass the test of Matthew 25, will enter the earthly Kingdom, and those Jews saved after the Rapture of the church, will inherit the land. We inherit something all together different...co-heir ship with Christ.
---kathr4453 on 8/6/08


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The only thing that's been REPLACED IS The marriage contract (TORAH) that was broken by the Israel/church / Kahal / Ekklesia of the OT because it was written upon a HEART OF STONE which breaks the Torah of God (Zech 7:11-13)

God PROMISED A NEW (renewed) MARRIAGE CONTRACT with the church / Kahal / Ekklesia IN THE NT which would be TORAH BASED (Jer31:33, Heb 8:8-10) by GIVING the INDWELLING Holy Spirit so that God's people would have the power to KEEP the Torah of God and His commmandments. (Eze36:26-27)

(Acts 2)I will TAKE AWAY the STONY HEART out of your flesh, and I will give you a HEART OF FLESH. And I will put my spirit WITHIN YOU and cause you to WALK in my statutes, and ye shall KEEP my judgments (Torah) and do them"
---gracynluv on 8/5/08


True Replacement Theology should be ....Jesus replaced our Old sin nature with the Righteousness of His. But one may even say it is called the exchanged life.

We exchanged our filthy rags with the Robes of His Righteousness. We don't become replaced with Israel...but with Christ Himself. Christ who IS OUR LIFE!!!! WOW!!!

Now that king of Replacement Theology I can accept!!!
---kathr4453 on 8/5/08


The Jews believed and taught that salvation was only for the Jews, the physical Jews. Paul exclaims just how wrong they were and that being a physical Jew is not enougth, as it is a spiritual matter. All the sacrifices of the Old Testament were physical signs of spiritual truths and so were the natural Jews signs of the spiritual Jew. All come together as one. Job was saved and yet not a outwardly a Jew. Those who harp on about the physical Jews as being a special people are missing the mark. God has only one people and that is those that are saved He rent the wall of partition between Jew and Gentile and no matter how hard many try they cannot put it back together and separate the nation of the physical Jew from that of the spiritual
---Alan on 8/5/08


The Israel of GOD is not the Bride of CHRIST. Israel is the WIFE of God, the Church is the Bride of Christ.
---kathr4453

Kat

Biblically, the church is Israel and Israel is the church and the church/Israel became a NATION of people unto God and became a church / Kahal /Ekklesia assembly of people unto God at Mount Sinai when they entered into a marriage contract with God and the marriage document ratifying the marriage was the Torah.

This nation of people called Israel / church /Ekklesia were a MIXED MULTITUDE of people (both Jew and non-Jew)
who came out of Egypt (Ex 12:38) and entered into a bethothal contract with God at MountSinai(Jer2:2-3)

Therefore, the Bride of God consists of BOTH Jew and non-Jew.
---gracynluv on 8/5/08


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***What does Paul say in Rom.2:28-29 A jew is one with a circumcised heart. Only the remnant was God's people,these are the ones He saved.So did the church replace the church?
---mike on 8/3/08*****

The Church has more than a Circumcised heart. WE are Circumcised with the Circumcision of CHRIST, Colossians 2 deals with the WHOLE man.....Adam 1 is crucified with Christ.

Adam 1 died with Christ at Calvary...we are a NEW Creation IN CHRIST...this Mystery was KEPT secret, and revealed to PAUL concerning the True relationship of the Church to Christ.
We are bone of His bone and flesh of His flesh.....His Bride...just as Eve was Adam's bride. This was Never promised to Israel!
---kathr4453 on 8/4/08


****16And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. *****

So Gracy, we are called to walk according to THIS RULE

WHAT RULE? That we are a NEW CREATION in Christ Jesus....not a make over of Israel. This is the WHOLE point of Galatians.

AND the Israel of God is not a redundant remark from Paul. If he meant we the Church were the Israel of God, He would say, who is the Israel of God....not AND

AND is in addition to......referring to Romans 11.


The Israel of GOD is not the Bride of CHRIST. Israel is the WIFE of God, the Church is the Bride of Christ.
---kathr4453 on 8/4/08


What does Paul say in Rom.2:28-29 A jew is one with a circumcised heart. Only the remnant was God's people,these are the ones He saved.So did the church replace the church?
---mike on 8/3/08

God revealed to the apostles, under the New Covenant, He makes NO DISTINCTION between Jew and Gentile. Regardless of race or ethnic origin, He extends the promises of salvation to ANY AND ALL whom He chooses to call. Under the New Covenant, physical descent from Abraham NO LONGER MATTERS because God is CONCERNED ONLY over the person's REPENTANCE and FAITH IN CHRIST. Those who receive the Holy Spirit after repentance and baptism BECOME "THE TRUE SEED OF ABRAHAM"
---gracynluv on 8/4/08


Gracy you seem to have manipulated Galatians 6 to say what you want. but here is the WHOLE put together.

We Glory in the CROSS. We are a NEW CREATION, and we bear in our body the markd of the Lord Jesus......not the marks of OT Israel updated and renewed.



14But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

15For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

16And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

17From henceforth let no man trouble me: for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus.
---kathr4453 on 8/4/08


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How can it be replacment theology? Remember God always had a remnent.The first belivers were Jews, the remnant. What does Paul say in Rom.2:28-29 A jew is one with a circumcised heart. Only the remnant was God's people,these are the ones He saved.So did the church replace the church?
---mike on 8/3/08


popes made scapegoats of the Jews all through the ages for that very reason.---Mark_V.

Because your Protestant Leaders didn't do anything for the Jewish people during WWII, you take out your anger on the only Religious groups that helped them.

If you are brave enough to answer, tell me one Protestant Leader that did 10% of the work of Pope in saving the Jews?

Not answering me just proves my point.

The Jewish Communities all over the world defended Pope Pius XII against Protestants claiming He did nothing. Oct, 1958 during his funeral.

Jesus, the RCC and the Jewish people knows the truth. We came to the aid of our big brothers.

You were silent during the killings, please until with your silence.
---Nicole on 8/2/08


Kat, many scriptures backs this up!

Perhaps the most concise affirmation in the NT that the church is NT Israel is 1Pet 2:9, 10. As Peter explained what it means to be a Christian in 1Pet1:22-2:10, he referred to the Christian's conversion (1:22-25), conduct (2:2, 3), and calling (2:4-10). He concluded by asking his readers to rejoice in the truth that BELIEVERS are God's chosen people, His true Israel.

This comparison confirms our special relationship with God and our special calling from God, it gives us reason to rejoice in the spiritual blessings that are offered to us in Christ. These verses will teach us that we are spiritual Israel.
---gracynluv on 8/2/08


Paul said "And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God" (Gal 6:16). Nor are we surprised that Paul figuratively depicted the church with terms taken from God's covenant relationship with ancient Israel:

"For we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh" (Phil 3:3). This depiction of the church as "Israel" should be highly significant to us, for it tells us that Christians are spiritual Israel today and have been set apart as God's own possession even as was ancient Israel!
---gracynluv on 8/1/08


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****Since the story of the OT is the story of the nation of Israel, and since the creation of this nation was God's advance work for the bringing of the Messiah into the world, we should not be surprised that Paul referred to the Lord's CHURCH as the Israel of God: CONT..***

No Gracy, Paul said AND the Israel of God....

AND means in addition to, not one in the same. Please re-read.

no other scripture backs this up, and you need to find more witnesses of scripture to make sure you have not taken this one out of context. That's how we keep ourselves in Check.
---kathr4453 on 8/1/08


The entire OT period-the Patriarchal and Mosaical dispensations of time-formed a prelude for the COMING of the Messiah. In the Patriarchal period, God chose Abraham and Jacob to be His servants through whom He would create a nation that He would call His OWN. He elected to call this nation "Israel," the name which He had given to Jacob. In the Mosaical Age, God brought His chosen nation under His law, he taught them to worship Him and to LIVE as HIS holy people.

Since the story of the OT is the story of the nation of Israel, and since the creation of this nation was God's advance work for the bringing of the Messiah into the world, we should not be surprised that Paul referred to the Lord's CHURCH as the Israel of God: CONT..
---gracynluv on 8/1/08


Mark V and Leslie, Thank you for your posts of truth. Do you realize too that Passion Plays were this very thing.....parading through the streets how the Jews KILLED Jesus, therefore starting riots and persecutions and terrorizing Jews AFTER each passion play called pogroms. It was this very kind of Passion Play Mel Gibson( a devout Catholic and anti-semite), made that incited Hitler to begin with.



"For hundreds of years Passion Plays acted out, spoken out, sermonized out, inspired and legitimized pogroms, inquisitions and expulsions." ALL invented by the RCC.

Jesus said Forgive them for they know not what they do .



---kathr4453 on 8/1/08


Thank you Kathr. I agree with you.

Leslie, you explanation was great. I also like the part in which you mention that "it was not the Jews who put Jesus on the Cross, but all people put Jesus on the Cross." The long harsh treatment of Jews by the popes was the result of the same serious misunderstanding of Gospel Truth, by the Churchs own interpretation of the Cross. But it was not Jews alone, who were responsible for the Cruxcifixion but the sin of the whole world, that is the entire race. It's sad to say those popes who claim infallibility made scapegoats of the Jews all through the ages for that very reason.
---Mark_V. on 8/1/08


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MarkV, I do agree with you.....but I wanted to emphasise with Gracy that this verse, long before the verse she uses in Revelation 14, consists of many out of every kindred, tongue and people and nation.....which proves we don't all become Jews OR Lost Tribes of Israel, or Ephriam when we get saved.

Rev 5:9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation,

James in the Book of James, addresses the 12 Tribes scattered...Gentiles were never scattered.
---kathr4453 on 7/31/08


Leslie AMEN!!!!

If Israel had received their KING at that time.....there would be no CROSS ...just a Kingdom of more LAW, with Jesus ruling with an Iron Rod.( without MERCY!!!



God knows what He's doing...in the ORDER HE is doing it.

For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
---kathr4453 on 7/29/08


Kathr, passage 5:10 is futuristic. V. 4:1 says, "Come up here, and I will show you things which take place after this." Second, the passage speaks of "Kings and priest," Same words are found in 1:6. My Bible's commentary give "Kings" as kingdom. So it would read kingdom and priest. All who believe live in the sphere of God's rule, a kingdom entered by faith in Jesus Christ. And as priest, believers have the right to enter God's presence. V.10 "And have made us kings and priest to our God. And we shall reign on the earth." The ten thousand time ten thousand" lit. means "myriads of myriads, "a great number of persons." The number is to express an amount beyond calculation.
---Mark_V. on 7/28/08


Replacement Theology is saying that the Jews are no longer God's people (due to not obeying God, and putting Jesus on the cross), but ONLY Christians are God's people. This is NOT true according to the Bible. The Bible says that because of the cross and the blood of Christ, Jew and Gentile (Christians) are both God's people, and now form ONE NEW MAN (God's church). The Jews did NOT put Jesus on the cross, but ALL people put Jesus on the cross with their sins. Replacement Theology according to the Bible IS a LIE, due to the ONE NEW MAN.
---Leslie on 7/28/08


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Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

I interpret that passage to refer to the vision given to the saints while they were living on earth. It is much the same with them wondering what the Spirit of God will telling them in prophecy concerning Christ. 1 Peter 1:10f
---Lee1538 on 7/28/08


Lee, Hebrew 11 OT saints demonstrated FAITH in the PROMISES without having yet SEEN THEM FULFILLED. How much better off are WE, for Christ had came and many of the promises that the ancients believed in, that were FUTURE FOR THEM, are NOW HISTORY for us. This should strengthen us to believe in what is yet to come for us also- eternal life with Christ in heaven, in his SECOND coming.(Heb 11:39-40, Heb 12:1-2)

(vs13) "ALL these people were still living by faith WHEN they died.They ONLY SAW them and WELCOMED them FROM the DISTANCE! "LONGING for a batter country- a HEAVENLY one, a city with foundations, who's architect is and builder is GOD.

I believe these saints are in Heaven,the "firstfruit" unto God and lamb.
---gracynluv on 7/24/08


Lee, the bible is not talking about PHYSICALLY being pure. buth that they are SPIRITUALLY virgins.

David had several wives and was a man AFTER God's OWN HEART. Many other saints had more than one wife including Abraham, Moses and Jacob. These men were not living in adultery. They were blessed by God. Again, this is presented only to refute the false teaching OF THE RCC.

In the OT, UNFAITHFULLNESS to God was often spoken of as FORNICATION and HARLOTRY. Spiritually "a harlot" (Re 17:1-5, Isa 1:21, contrast 2Co 11:2, Eph 5:25-27). Their not being defiled with women means they were not led astray.
---gracynluv on 7/24/08


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