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Explain 1 Thessalonians 4:16

In 1 Thessalonians 4:16 - The verse says ".....And the dead in Christ will rise first". If at the moment of death the believer is immediately in the presence of God. Then what does the verse mean when it says the dead in Christ will rise first?

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Willa you ignore the obvious. The earthly temple was not destroyed and raised 3 days. We know Jesus rose after 3 days. We know Jesus knew He would die and rise again. John knew (2:21) "But the temple he had spoken of was his body.'

But you reject what Jesus has obviously said, because your denomination affiliation commands you do so. One of the dangers of rigid denominationalism.

To those free to accept the fact of the Godhead there is no contradiction, as Jesus is indeed God! However if what you say is correct Jesus is but an arrogant, self-importent liar! I will raise it up, I am the way, the truth and the life, come to me, I will give you rest, your sins are forgiven....
---Warwick on 7/25/11

Deu 4:24 For the LORD thy God [is] a consuming fire, [even] a jealous God.
Hebrews 12:29 For our God [is] a consuming fire.
Deu 4:36 Out of heaven he made thee to hear his voice, that he might instruct thee: and upon earth he shewed thee his great fire, and thou heardest his words out of the midst of the fire.
Jer 23:29 [Is] not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD, and like a hammer [that] breaketh the rock in pieces?
2Pet 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
The Word made flesh, begotten by(proceeding forth from) God as fire begets fire.
---micha9344 on 7/25/11

Willa, you acknowledge both believes but you only believe in one of them. You said that Jesus was the Messiah, the anoined One, whom all the prophets had spoken of. and whose coming at this period the saints of that day, such as Simeon, Anna, and those who were looking for redemption in Jerusalem, were aniously expecting (Luke. 2:26, 36, 38). And also believe the say now you believe in the second part of the question. That Jesus was not only the Messiah who was to come in the flesh, but that He was also the Son of God. And you could not believe in that if you don't believe He was the eternal Son of God in His divine nature. Do you no claim you believe in the humanity of Christ and the divine nature of Christ?
---Mark_V. on 7/24/11


No but,but,but's. None of those who heard Jesus say this understood what he said until the resurrection took place. No where in scripture will you find other than here that it appears to say Jesus will raise himself from the dead. It consistently says God raised his servant, Jesus, from the dead. So either those who preached God(one person) raised him(second person-Jesus) from the dead were wrong or you misunderstand what he means.
---willa5568 on 7/24/11


Daniel 7:14 says "he was GIVEN dominion(authority) just as Matthew 28:18 and 1Corinthians shows as well. Psalms certainly says the kingdom is YHWH's, the Father. But the Father giving Jesus authority does not negate the fact that it is God the Fathers kingdom but supports it.

Daniel 7:27- ,Then the kingdom, authority(dominion), and greatness of the kingdoms under all of heaven will be delivered to the people of the holy ones of the Most High. His kingdom is an eternal kingdom, all authorities(dominions) will serve him and obey him.

This also reveals the Kingdom is the Ancient of Days(the Fathers) and all dominions(those given authority) will serve and obey Him as 1Corinthians 15:24 says.
---willa5568 on 7/24/11

micha9344: Good post!

"Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." God alone is omnipotent.
---chria9396 on 7/24/11

Willa said ''One time does Jesus say this, with those hearing understanding it to be the temple itself.''

So your response is to ignore Jesus' words. He said he raised his own body up. So he did. If God raised his body up, that means God is Jesus. Proof of the Trinity.

Your response is to special plead i.e ''But, but, but but...let's ignore that and look over a few pages to something else.''
---marc on 7/24/11

Dan 7:14b ...his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed.
Psa 145:10b,13 ...O LORD...Thy kingdom [is] an everlasting kingdom, and thy dominion [endureth] throughout all generations.
1Cr 15:24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father, when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
-So, who is the LORD and Ancient of Days that His kingdom is not always His, but has given it to this Son of Man, Jesus Christ, which does not have everlasting dominion, but gives it back to His Father?
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
---micha9344 on 7/24/11


You are very correct. Who do YOU say the son of MAN(not God(Matt. 16:13))is certainly is vital

I saw in the night like a son of man, and he came even to the ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. There was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations, and languages should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed-Daniel 17:13,14

I agree with Peter "you are the Messiah, the son of the living God"

Read Acts 4:24-30 specifically 24,27. That is who the son of God is, the holy servant of the almighty God

Thank God he opened my eyes as he did with Peter!
---willa5568 on 7/24/11

Willa, you as many find themselves having to answer the question, "who do you say the Son of God is?" your answer is vidal to your salvation.
You say, "I can receive nothing which I cannot understand and reconcile to my reasoning mind" That is the reasoning of the "Socinian" for he says, "I cannot receive the doctrine of the Trinity, for it contradicts the Unity of God, which I received as a fundamental truth." Certainly, if we carry earthly reasonings into the courts of heaven, and measure the Being and nature of God by the being and nature of man, you will never understand. Jesus said, "My Father in heaven has revealed it to you" flesh and blood cannot reveal this truths.
---Mark_V. on 7/24/11


here is my last comment. Scripture says "there is one God, the Father" which seems to me that the Father is the one or only God. Jesus said the Father was his God and is the only true God and the epistles express the same. It does not seem possible to say Jesus is God as well if the Father is the one God, there is no other God but the Father. This is something you might consider as a starting point to who God is.
---willa5568 on 7/24/11


One time does Jesus say this, with those hearing understanding it to be the temple itself. Every other time though it says God raised him, "God raised him from the dead"Acts 13:21 another example. But according to you it says God raised himself from the dead, though he cannot die. But it says God(one person) raised him(second person). one person raised another person.
---willa5568 on 7/24/11

Indeed Willa, I agree it was God who raised Jesus from the dead. As the Scriptures tell us, 'Jesus answered: ''Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up''..he was speaking of the temple of his body.' Note here it's Jesus who claims to raise his own body. Therefore he is God, unless you believe Scripture contradicts itself.
---Marc on 7/23/11


Your explanation of Acts 17:3 denies what it says. Considering you mention context so often, why do you ignore it?

The God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob,the God of our fathers, hath glorified his servant killed the Author of life, whom God raised from the dead...God raised up his servant and sent him first to you, to bless you by turning each one of you from your iniquities. -Acts 3:13-26

Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.-Acts 2:22-36

You explain away GOD made JESUS Lord and Christ, raised him from the dead, was His servant, will be subjected to God, and it and he say he has a God.
---willa5568 on 7/23/11

Willa 2: The Father did not become the Father when Jesus was born, He is the Father from eternity. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only Begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not parish, but have everlasting life" Pretty simple. As it is plainly declared, that Christ was the only-begotten Son of God before He came into this world. When did God love the world? Surely before He gave "His only begotten Son" Then He was certainly His "only begotten Son" before He was given and before He came, and how could He be this but in His divine nature. For His human did not then exist, except in the mind of God. How plain the testimony is that comes to a believing heart.
---Mark_V. on 7/23/11

Re Acts 17:31, Paul also moments earlier proclaims to the Greeks the God ''who made the world and everything in it''. (Acts 17:24) In another context Paul proclaims to the Colossians that ''BY Jesus all things were created that are in heaven and on earth...All things were created through him and for him''(Col 1:16). Surely Paul is talking about the same person in both passages i.e. God.
---Marc on 7/22/11

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Willa, of course passages are bias to you. Like Isa. 9:6. I don't expect anything else. It's bias to Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons, now also to Unitarians.
What you are doing is the same as I heard from someone else today. That "aggelos" means children of Israel as messengers all the time in the Grk.
Concerning the incarnate Christ, He had a human form as a man, did you not read that? All things were made through Him and without Him nothing was made that was made "And the Word became flesh and dwelled among us" He was the Word, the Son of God from all eternity. And He is the man talked about in ( Acts 17:31).. But Jesus said, this has to be revealed to you.
---Mark_V. on 7/23/11


in Acts 17:31 it says God will judge by a man HE designated. The man is not God a man God designated who God GAVE all authority to and after the judgement will hand the kingdom over to God that God will be all in all. Also in Isaiah 9:6 the translation is biased and could and should be translated "mighty champion" or "mighty warrior" and he certainly is not the Father of eternity in the manner you suggest. Micah 5:2 also says this "from you shall come forth for me one who is to be ruler in Israel". Also read verse 4. The "me" is God and the "ruler" is the one that shall come forth for God. This ruler is not God.

---willa5568 on 7/22/11

Willa, do not try to overwhelm me with many passages.
Acts 17:31 is true, because the Son of God one day will judge the world. He will not judge the world until all the elect are gathered. He is the Son from all eternity. In the Messianic prophecy Christ is spoken of as the Child to be born in Bethlehem "Whose going forth have been from of old, from everlasting" (Micah 5:2) the thought was not new in Micah's time, but is expressed without ambiguity by Isaiah, when he gives the Messiah the name of "The Mighty God" In Isaiah 9:6, Christ is declared to be not only "Mighty God" but also "everlasting Father" or, better translated, "Father of eternity"
---Mark_V. on 7/22/11


Apostles Creed:

I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth.

And in Jesus Christ His only Son our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried, the third day He rose from the dead, He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty, from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen.

This creed is the closest to the biblical teaching.

Notice: the Father is almighty and Jesus is His son, not almighty.
---willa5568 on 7/22/11

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Isaiah 45:1-14 as small example.
You say God made of three persons being it's substance, not one singular person. In these verses I, me, mine are used 26 times.

vs.5-I am YHWH, and there is no other, besides me there is no God, I equip you, though you do not know me

four times personal pronouns are used in this verse alone. "I am YHWH",YHWH is an I. "I" cannot be more than one person unless changed to a plural form, "we, our, us". No one who reads this for what it says will ever see "I" being more than one person except a personal pronouns meaning is changed which the trinity doctrine has no choice but to do. YHWH is not a thing with a substance that constitutes what it is, but a He.
---willa5568 on 7/22/11


You say Jesus chose to become a man and die for our sins, yet in John 8:42 he says he came not of his self. 18 times in the NT it says the Father is Jesus' God and is the one God specifically not including the others that show the same.

example:because he has set a day on which he is going to judge the world in righteousness, by a man whom he designated, having provided proof to everyone by raising him from the dead- Acts 17:31

one Lord,one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all-Ephesians 4:5,6

But I am to explain away these clear verses and accept twisted interpretations of scripture instead?
---willa5568 on 7/22/11

Willa, I did call you a heretic for one reason only, because you oppose the deity of Christ. Heretic "A person who holds religious beliefs oppose to the Orthodox doctrines of the Church."

If you were talking about any passage and the interpretation of them I would have never said that, but to me you went to far, an attack on Christ is different then discussing passages.
I don't condemn you Willa, I oppose what you say. If you want to discuss Christ, give at least two passages at a time, and we will read the context and go from there. Opinions with context is better then just opinions.
---Mark_V. on 7/22/11


I've been told on here I am a heretic, a deceiver,of the devil, not a Christian, do not understand scripture and so on. But If scripture says there is one God the Father, the Father is the only true God according to Jesus, the Apostles consistently call him a man anointed by God, Jesus has a God after the resurrection, the Father is Jesus' God in the Epistles, and we are his brothers? How can Jesus be God? Something that makes God, who does not change, put aside who He is to become a man is a lie. For me as Paul said, "there is ONE God, the Father, and ONE Lord, (THE MAN) Christ Jesus". Jesus is not preexistent or an Angel, he is the Son of God born of a women in the line of David, the Messiah of Israel!
---willa5568 on 7/21/11

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Willa, you also say,
"I want the truth no matter what the cost is"
If you did want the Truth so bad, why did you give it up? Because that is exactly what you did. ---Mark_V. on 7/19/11

Willa, as you've experienced some peoples truths are of their own devices.

GOD give truth to those who he calls and who ask for it panting.
Not to those who build castles on context, hermeneutics or logic by my title.
These doctrinal castles all fall being unsupported by his foundational stone...provided in abundance.
Deut 14:2
For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.
---Trav on 7/21/11

Willa, you also say,
"I want the truth no matter what the cost is"
If you did want the Truth so bad, why did you give it up? Because that is exactly what you did. Without even studying the nature, character and Attributes of God first, you changed to Unitarianism. Following the same roots of Charles Taze Russell founder of the Jehovah Witnesses. That is exactly where the roots come from. Jesus, a little god, an angel equal to satan. Some truth you went to. Arianism in nature.
---Mark_V. on 7/19/11

If you can hear ,
"All things are delivered unto Me of My Father, and no man know the Son, but the Father, neither knows any man the Father, save the Son, and He to whomsoever the Son will reveal Him" Matt 11:27). "A man can receive nothing except it is given him from heaven" (John 3:27), therefore if the Son of God has never been revealed with power to their heart, how can they receive Him as such? Happy are they who can say by revelation of Him to their soul,
"And we know that the Son of God is come, and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true, and we are in Him that is true, even in His Son Jesus Christ, "This is the true God and eteranl life" ( 1 John 5:20).
---Mark_V. on 7/19/11

John 10:17-18 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
-still confused?
Jhn 10:17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life--only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."
-The Father through His Word(guess who) raised up Jesus, just as God has done from the beginning.
---micha9344 on 7/19/11

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Willa, my intend is not to make you walk out of your box. I only give you the Truth.
The subject talked about in ( John 14:15-20 ) by Jesus is the Comforter, the Holy Spirit. And what He is indicating to the disciples was a distinction between the ministry of the Holy Spirit to believers before and after Pentacost. It introduced old Covenant believers who had not received the Holy Spirit in this unique fullness and intimacy (Acts 1:8, 2:1-4, 1 Cor. 12:11-13).
Now, you can reject the Truth or accept it. It is not my choice. Willa, anyone who strips the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit of deity, are called heretics to the Christian faith. I have no power to do change your faith. Only the Spirit can reveal to you the Truth.
---Mark_V. on 7/18/11


are you reading Acts 2:27-31 or another book. It was Gods power that raised Jesus, "This Jesus God raised up". Where do you get John 14:18 as speaking of OT believers? He is speaking to his disciples. Maybe you "need to find out first how many other passages are completely trashed for holding to those believes". I don't need dogma nor did the Apostles. You haven't told me anything I didn't use to hold to as the truth. One thing is for sure though, I am not settled to just accept what is "orthodox" because I am a "heretic" if I don't (kind of like the Reformation). I want the truth no matter what the cost is! Will you be brave enough to step out or just follow the "orthodox" sheep.
---willa5568 on 7/17/11

Willa, your answer are outside of context. Acts 2:24-35 is saying, because of His divine power (Christ) death could not keep Jesus in the grave.
John 14:18 is speaking of Old Testament believers. While clearly the Holy Spirit has been with all who have ever believed throughout redemptive history as the source of truth, faith, and life, Jesus here is saying something new is coming in His ministry (John 7:37-39) indicates this unique ministry would be like "rivers of living water" Acts 19:1-7 so introduces some Old Covenant believers who had not received the Holy Spirit in this unique fullness and intimacy (Acts 1:8, 2:1-4) "Orphans" in this reference to His death, He promised not to leave them alone (Rom. 8:9).
---Mark_V. on 7/17/11


because you will not leave my soul in Hades, neither will you allow your Holy One to see decay.>Acts 2:27,31,32
I will not leave you as orphans, I will come to you>John 14:18
John 14:3, 17:24

Will he leave us in the grave and forsake us? When we sleep(die) will he not awaken us because he left us? Is he not going to prepare a place that when he comes again we can be where he is?

Is this saying "my opinion" makes Jesus a liar, I think not.

And you didn't respond to my "opinion" with scripture either, only telling me how to study the bible. "Golly G Wiz, I didn't know that, I'll have to do that from now on!"
---willa5568 on 7/17/11

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Willa, you gave nothing but opinions and no Scripture to make your point. Everyone has an opinion. If you feel that when a believe dies, he is dead and his spirit is not with the Lord, I guess Jesus lied when He said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you" ( Heb. 13:5, Deut 31:6,8: Josh 1:5 )
In fact you are saying it was a lie, because He does leave you in the ground to rut. Again separated from Christ. But you are wrong, believers can be content that "there is absolutely no way whatsoever that Christ will ever, ever leave you" For we have spiritually been baptized into one body, and Christ is the head of that body.
---Mark_V. on 7/17/11

Willa 2: Before anyone comes to a conclusion about anything, and make passages dogmas, they need to find out first how many other passages are completely trashed for holding to those believes. I hear many say a lot of things completely disregarding other passages. Exactly what happens when someone says, God cannot do something. They talk and argue, before ever learning the nature, character, and attributes of God. And so they corrupt the deity of God for their own dogmas. Separation from God is to be spiritually dead to all that is of God. When we are born of the Spirit it's a spiritual rebirth, in Christ forever. How can someone be separated again? He would have to die spiritually again and at the resurrection be born again of the Spirit.
---Mark_V. on 7/17/11

"For though I am absent in the flesh, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good order and the steadfastness of your faith in Christ." (Colossians 2:5) So, you can be present "in spirit" where your body is not present. We can spiritually be with Jesus, then, while our bodies are elsewhere. Revelation 6:9 shows that John saw "under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held." If their bodies had been eaten by two or three lions, it might be "hard" to be where their bodies were! And we have the man who "was caught up to the third heaven," (2 Corinthians 12:2-4) and Paul considers he may not have been in his body.
---Bill_willa6989 on 7/17/11

And I did not say man was body, soul, and Spirit--Mark

Do you have to? If you believe our soul/spirit goes to heaven, is that not what you imply? You say context must be considered. So this is the question, is not the context containing this verse referring to the resurrection? Unless you aren't reading what the context is, how can it refer to our soul or anything else going to heaven when we die? And if our soul or spirit goes to heaven when we die, then our body which is dust and returns to dust, is only a shell and not who we are or even part of it(though God said dust you ARE,or to make it clearer YOU ARE DUST. No "and" something else). Us being a soul or/and spirit dwelling in a body is not taught in scripture.
---willa5568 on 7/16/11

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Dee, 1 Thess 4:16 is similar to 1 Cor 15:52 in that Paul is talking about the final fulfillment in the redemption (Romans 8:30) of the believer, and not of the unbeliever. The unbeliever will receive a body but it is not a glorified body as they will spend eternity in hell with another body. And all this will happen when Christ returns to judge.

"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth, they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life, and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." John 5:28,29
---christan on 7/16/11

That's exactly what I said about context. His understanding according to context is correct concerning the word which is why I posted the scripture I did. If what I said isn't right please show "according to context" and scripture why. I,m not interested in opinions because this is an issue that is plainly expressed without controversy.

And I did not intend to say the spiritual comes first, I didn't check it before I posted.
---willa5568 on 7/16/11

Willa, you said Paul said,
" as Paul says the spiritual comes first after the natural"
How can the spiritual come first "after the natural?"
The natural comes first and then the spiritual.
"However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual" ( 1 Cor. 15:36).
And I did not say man was body, soul, and Spirit, what I did say is that many times Spirit is in relation with soul. Depending on the context. It is alway the context. You want something like "Rauch" to mean the same every time but it doesn't. It depends on the context for which the word was used. If you get the translations from Hebrew and Greek, you will know those things.
---Mark_V. on 7/16/11

--Mark_V. on 7/16/11 :
Job 14:10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

Job 14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, TILL MY CHANGE COME.
Job 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

Job 19:27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another, [though] my reins be consumed within me.

as you can see Mr. Job expected to die, and see his redeemer IN HIS FLESH, not in spirit and false teachers claim.
But in his immortal body
---francis on 7/16/11

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I did not say dead always refers to the same thing, but when it speaks of physical death we have no life, lifeless, our breath has left. We are not spirit, as Paul says the spiritual comes first after the natural. And Francis is correct on the context he used for Ruwach. God breathed into man the breath of life. Though breath is a different Hebrew word here Ecclesiastes says man and animal have Ruwach which agrees with Genesis 1:30. There is no hint of man being "body, soul and spirit" in the way you understand in the OT, otherwise it would have to apply to animals as well. It is a misunderstanding of the NT, not considering it was Jewish writers using Greek words, not Platonic, Hellenic concepts of death and Hades.
---willa5568 on 7/16/11

francis, the passage you gave in Ecc. 12:7 does not necessarily mean breath all the time. The word "Ruach" has many upon many meanings depending on the context. It can mean also the Spirit of God, the spirit endowing a craftsman, an interpreter of dreams, the vital spirit, the natural spirit of man, the soul, the spirit of life in ( Ecc. 3:21. 8:8: 12:7).
Each context has its own meaning. Just because it means one thing in one context, does not necessaryily mean the same on another. A good Hebrew and Greek Aid will help you see which is which for each passage.
---Mark_V. on 7/16/11

AMEN Francis!

there is NOTHING in Holy Scripture that states "the believer is immediately in the presence of God" that is simply a LIE taught by false ministers

Christ is the FIRST FRUITS and each in his order 1Corin 15:20 ...the mystery so many cannot grasp because they follow the lies of mortal men rather than Holy Word of God 1Corin 15:51 ...1Thess 4:16 says what it means the DEAD (all of them per 1Corin 15) will rise first ...those who remain (live through the tribulation) will be CHANGED (inherit salvation of eternal life) 1Corin 15:52,53 to spirit beings and be JUST like Christ and those resurrected will live on earth when Christ restores Gods Kingdom to rule from Jerusalem
---Rhonda on 7/16/11

You have asked a question that will take hours to give even a basic lesson on, 100 words is not nearly enough.
Some key points are:
1) God gave man an everlasting spirit, he did not create it
2) at death that spirit goes back to the Father or to punishment for rejecting the Son
3) when Christ returns in the clouds he will call forth the bodies of the saints, reunite the spirit and body, His concern is for all of His creation not just a part of it
4) In the last days He will be on the earth and call the remainder of the dead, those saved after the 1st resurection (the remant of Israel and new Gentile believers) and the bodies of the lost.
---Harold on 7/16/11

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Willa, dead doesn't always mean, "one who has breath his last." At least not in Scripture. When God told Adam, "You shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die" As we know Adam lived 930 years, so what did he die of? He didn't breath his last breath.
And when we are told the lost who are walking according to the prince of the power of the air are, "Dead in trespasses and sin" yet they are still breathing, what kind of death was that? You cannot assume a "word" means the same in every context. I'm just trying to correct you on this point. Peace I leave you.
---Mark_V. on 7/16/11

When someone dies, his BODY goes to the ground, and GET THIS PART RIGHT The SPIRIT OF GOD which was in that person goes BACK TO GOD. It is not the spirit of the person which goes to heaven but THE BREATH OF LIVE or THE SPIRIT OF GOD

LIFE, Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the DUST of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the BREATH OF LIFE, and man became a living soul.

DEATH: Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the DUST return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Genesis 3:19 DUST thou art, and unto DUST shalt thou return.

God never promised heaven or hell at death just DUST
---francis on 7/16/11

"..Then what does the verse mean when it says the dead in Christ will rise first?" Exactly what it says. There is no scripture that even suggest that anyone is, or will, be immediately in the physical presence of "God" "the moment of death". The verse used by most in an attempt to document that, is misquoted. The verse actually reads "willing rather to be absent from the body (terrestrial implied), and to be present with the Lord." However 1Thes 4:16 informs us of when that will be, and 1 Cor 15:40-44 informs us of the type of body we will inhabit. When we are caught up in the clouds, we are clothed in an instant with our celestial bodies, to meet the Lord. We are never conscious of life without a body.
---Josef on 7/15/11

yes the spirit body is with God, while the soul sleeps (is dead and not conscious of anything)in the dust of the earth

when the resurrection happens the spirit body given by God raises them from the dust and they become a living soul again

Adam never became a living soul without the spirit given by God
---glen on 7/14/11

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if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised...Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.(Corinthians 15)

Dead: one that has breathed his last, lifeless(Thayer)

Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.(1Corinthians 15:49)

As God told Adam, he was made from the dust to dust he will return. But through Christ we will be raised in a spiritual body. The body doesn't sleep, the dead do. If their is no resurrection we do not exist any longer, we remain dust.
---willa5568 on 7/14/11

a believers spirit is in the presence of God, because the spirit returns to God at death

BUT they are not conscious, they are "sleeping"

It will seem as though they had just fallen asleep and woke overnight (like sleeping), so it would seem immediately that they are with the Lord
---glen on 7/14/11

When Paul says of himself "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" He meant His Born-Again spirit + soul only. Not all versions include "If" at the moment of death the believer......' However 1 Thess 4:16b means "at the trumpet call of God.." Paul's perishable body + other believers who have died will rise first, followed by living Christians. We will all be changed instantly to an imperishable heavenly state. The bible doesnt elaborate on how those Christians who have 'died + are present with the Lord' join again with their new resurrection bods, all we do know is that our earthly tent is changed, God isnt limited by how we die.
---Jen on 7/13/11

The soul is not the mind, and the soul is not the spirit, they are separate. Each person is made up of a body, which is the building or flesh, a spirit, which is the breath or aspiration, and a soul, which is the life or anima. The soul can be living or dead. When one dies the spirit leaves the body and soul, and goes back to God. The body and soul remain behind on earth, until that time that the Lord will call for the dead to rise. (Mark 12:30, Acts 17:25, I Thessalonians 5:23, Hebrews 4:12).
---Eloy on 9/27/07

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I think at that time they will rise from their rest & get new bodies & we that are alive & remain will meet the Lord in the air and we will be changed also. Those in the graves will have to be judged and will be cast into lake of fire for eternity There is a gulf now in heaven where the dead are waiting. Its in the bible.
---Lori on 9/26/07

I think at that time they will rise from their rest & get new bodies & we that are alive & remain will meet the Lord in the air and we will be changed also. Those in the graves will have to be judged and will be cast into lake of fire for eternity There is a gulf now in heaven where the dead are waiting. Its in the bible.
---Lori on 9/26/07

I think at that time they will rise from their rest & get new bodies & we that are alive & remain will meet the Lord in the air and we will be changed also. Those in the graves will have to be judged and will be cast into lake of fire for eternity There is a gulf now in heaven where the dead are waiting. Its in the bible.
---Lori on 9/26/07

My take on this is - - Paul understood how there were Christians who were pining for their so-loved brothers and sisters who had died, feeling they might be gone...annihilated. So, he wrote to them, to let them know these ones were not forgotten by God, but in fact would rise first before anyone still alive would. So, this thing about the dead rising first is not primarily a theological statement, but a message of compassion intended to comfort.
---Bill_bila5659 on 9/26/07

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At night, when the body is asleep, the mind is also asleep and is not conscience of the surrounding environment. That is why sleep is used as a simile in the Bible. When we die, we are sleeping and are not consciece until the return of Jesus. Many verses in both the OT and NT agree to that. The creme of the crop of Christians will rise at the first resurrection and not see the second death, the rest of the dead will rise at the second resurrection to be judged from the Book of Life.
---Steveng on 9/26/07

But don't you worry about what is past or what is to come, just be aware that something is going to happen. And your heart is right with God if you just obey the two commandments Jesus spoke of in the New Testament and God spoke of in the Old Testament (which doesn't say to worry about what is to come). Pray to God continually that you and yours are worthy of His protection during the tribulation that is soon to come. Even at the threshhold.
---Steveng on 9/26/07

I found averse in Revelation 6:9, "And they cried with a loud voice saying, How long o Lord, holy and true, until you judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth? Then a white robe was given to each of them that they should rest a little means sleep, these could possibly be the dead in Christ.
---Lori_Beth_Nash on 9/26/07

The dead in Christ is referring to believers in Christ who have died and their spirits are with the Lord. It means the raising of their physical bodies out of the grave to meet the Lord in the air.
---Cynthia on 9/26/07

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It is refering to the physical resurrection of the body just as Jesus was resurrected from the dead.
---Bruce5656 on 9/26/07

This how I understand it.When a person dies their spirit, and soul leaves the body. Then when Christ comes to take up believers, the dead bodies of believers shall rise and be changed instantly. The souls in heaven will begiven their new bodies then.
---Ulrika on 10/29/05

My church had taught that after death Christians go to be with God. Then when Jesus returns, those of us who had died will return to their grave and their earthly body, rise and stand before God to be judged.
---joe on 10/29/05

This letter, written to the Thessalonians by Paul, was pointing out that those Christians alive at the return of Christ, would not preceded those who had died physically. Based on the commentaries read, and in context with the rest of the book, it seems to be dealing with the physical bodies, not spiritual bodies.
---WIVV on 10/26/05

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Dee, I find no scripture to support our dead going immediately to God. There was a rapture at the time of Jesus's resurrection and will be another when He returns for His people. That is supported by the Bible. As for a body, read all of 1Cor.Ch.15. esp vs.44. Also read 2Cor.5:vs1.
---mike_fl on 10/7/05

Sometimes in scripture sleep means dead.
John 11:11-15,23-44
---Ulrika on 9/29/05

1Cor.15:,51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Thes. 4:16 The people who are saved and dead shall rise first and be changed (1Cor.15:50-54), then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
---Ulrika on 9/29/05

1Thes.14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose agian, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 1Cor. 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53-57 When a person dies, his soul and spirit go on to eternity. His body is buried. When Christ comes the people who are saved and dead are given a new incorruptable body for their soul and spirit.
---Ulrika on 9/29/05

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The Scripture doesn't say " the dead."
It says the Dead in Christ!
In v14 those who rest (Sleep) in Jesus will God bring with Him. So where are they at now?
This passage says nothing about the grave now does it?
---Elder on 9/29/05

Dee; It means exactly what it says "the DEAD" (says nothing about a body) will rise...etc. If they are doing just fine all this time without a body...tell me why suddenly they need an earthly body ,to live in heaven..(something wrong with this picture) phil.3.11 act.24.15 rev.20.6
---1st_cliff on 9/27/05

If you read this verse in context, it's talking about when Christ comes back. Verse 15 states, "that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede whose who are asleep." Thus it's saying when Christ comes back, the dead will rise first and then we who are alive will meet Him. It will all be pretty instantaneous from what I understand, but God feels it's important enough to distinguish the dead from the living.
---Diana on 9/27/05

The dead shall rise first, meaning that the christians ones that have died before us will rise to meet Jesus, then the ones left remaining on earth will go. When a christian person dies, their not in heaven, because the word says that no man has entered into heaven expect the Father and his Son.
---Rebecca_D on 9/27/05

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The dead in Christ are those who have passed away before the rapture. They are in the grave and will be resurrected up to Jesus at that time.
---kelly9967 on 9/27/05

The Body is dead but the Spirit is alive.
At this time the Spirit is reunited with the body, the body is changed and it goes alive to be with the Lord, where the Spirit has been.
Some will disagree but they have a right to be wrong.
Mankind is made up of Body, Soul and Spirit.
You can prove this by REALLY Studying the Scripture.
Remember I Cor 5 speaks of destroying the body of a sinning Christian so the Spirit will be Saved.
---Elder on 9/27/05

Further to my previous post:
The dead (those who's physical bodies are not alive when Jesus comes)will reunited with their resurrected bodies and then we which are still alive will go with them to be with Jesus. Either way, from the grave or while living, we recieve a new, imortal, uncorruptable body.
---Bruce5656 on 9/27/05

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