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What Do We Obey In The Bible

I am thoroughly confused over the issue of being free from the law. Some of you are saying tatoos are O.K. because we are not bound by the law any more. Some of you say tatoos are wrong because the Old Testament forbids them. Which laws are we then bound by and which ones are we freed from?

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 ---F.F. on 10/8/05
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We are free from the law of sin and death and bound to the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, the law of liberty, the law of love, and the law of faith.
---Linda_Smith on 2/2/08


Hello Eloy, I wanted to stress the point that when we say the law is no longer in effect, we began to feel that everything is by grace, and the law is not in use anymore. Well that is not correct at all. We don't, as believers, follow the law for living but by following Christ through grace we are accually fulfilling all the laws, because it the Christ in us that helps us fulfill the requirements without condemnation. Why, because of obedience. Obedience to what to God's law.
---lisa on 11/21/06


2. Under the New Testament a born again believer is not under the law but under Grace. When the bible speaks to us about the law in the N.T. it is speaking to born again believers not to the unbelievers. The unbelievers are under the law because they have sinned against God's law. The law purpose for them is as a custodian to bring them to Christ (Gal. 3:22-24). By showing them their sinfulness, the law serves as a guide, and shows them that their only hope for justification is through Christ.
---lisa on 11/21/06


3. The law to the believer serves as a guideline for godly living. The primary purpose of the law in the O.T. was to make humans consciously aware of the distintion between good and evil, between right and wrong. "It was given because of transgressions" The moral aspect of the law reflects the moral nature and perfection of God. It serves to show the "unbeliever that he has sinned against a holy God" why? because he has broken all of God's laws.
---lisa on 11/21/06


4. I mentioned that I was not going to use names, but there is one person here that speaks of obedience or else. She doesn't understand that a new believer is under grace. She put the born again believer under the law. In her mind she doesn't understand the difference between the two. The unbeliever and the believer. She uses both in as if they were the same, but they are not. Her lack of knowledge on the law and grace is what has her so messed up and in so writing she speaks against the grace of God.
---lisa on 11/21/06




5. Let me say as before, that every born again Christian had to have repented in order to be born again. Repentance is a realization that we have sinned against God's law and that we want to change and make things right again. Every born again believer has had to repent. So the law was in effect to us when we were lost. Without the law no one would come to Christ. Why? There would be no repentance.
---lisa on 11/21/06


6. When we witness to someone, we need to give them the gospel. From beginning to end so they can see and understand what mankind did. To show them their sin first. That is why no one is able of themselves to save themselves. When we speak the gospel to them, that God had a plan and that man sinned against him, and that God all through the bible speaks of their rebellion, yet He also speaks of His continueness in loving them. That He gave His Son to die for our sins, to make us right with Him.
---lisa on 11/21/06


7. We show them their condition first. Condemned and sentenced. When he hears the Truth of the gospel, the Holy Spirit convicts his heart and he repents of his wrongs. A contrite heart. And then we show him what Christ did on the cross for us, and he just breaks down and ask for forgivenss, broken down with no excuses. Then he is born again. The new heart is now working and his eyes are now open. That is a true conversion.
---lisa on 11/21/06


Lisa: well said.

Eloy: Without the law, how would a person know if he or she are sinners? Since men's hearts are cold and hardened, the Bible is the only way to bring to light our sinfullness. You wouldn't depend on the law of the land to tell us we are sinners, would you? What would the state of the world be if there were no laws?
---Steveng on 11/20/06


part 4: "For there is truly a disannulling of the Commandment going before, for the weakness and unprofitableness of it. For the Law perfected nothing, but a bringing in of a better hope by which we draw near to God. By so much security, Jesus indeed parent of a better Testament. Then said he, Here I come to do your will, O God. He takes away the first, that he may establish the second." Hebrews 7:18,19,22; 10:9.
---Eloy on 11/20/06




part 3: "Christ is become of no effect to you, whosoever of you are justified by the Law; you all are fallen from grace. A little leaven leavens the whole lump. But if you all be led by the Spirit, you all are not under the Law; having abolished in his flesh the enmity, the Law of Commandments in decrees; for to make in himself of the two, one new man, making peace." Galatians 5:4,9,18; Ephesians 2:15.
---Eloy on 11/20/06


part 2: "And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not steadfastly look to the end of that which is abolished. But their minds were blinded: for up to this day remains the same vail untaken away in the reading of the Old Testament; which is done away in Christ. But even up to this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it will turn to the Lord, the vail will be taken away."II Corinthians 3:13-16.
---Eloy on 11/20/06


.lisa, part 1: The Old Testament Laws indeed have been abolished: "having blotted out his Commands in handwriting, which being contrary to us, and took it out of the midst, nailing it to the cross." Colossians 2:14
---Eloy on 11/20/06


The law is not abolished or annualled. The law is what convicts the unbeliever to Christ. By showing them their sinfullness, the law serves as an instrument for the Holy Spirit. It shows them that their only hope for justification is through Christ. It is the number one tool in evangelism. Without bringing up the law there is no conversion, no repentance. The law convicts the heart of an unbeliever of wrong against God, and His great need to make things right.
---lisa on 11/20/06


2. As believers already, we are under a New Covenant. The moral law will always help the believer, It serves as a guideline for goldly living. The cerimonial, judicial, and civil laws are not in effect anymore, and were set for Israel. The ceremonial law was fulfilled, not annulled or abolished (Matthew 5:17-19).
---lisa on 11/20/06


Eloy: God doesn't change. He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. What you read in the NT is the same as in the OT. Then why include the OT with the NT in the Bible? Take for instance, sacrifice. Many Christians believe that sacraifice was nailed to the cross. But let me tell you that Christians sacrifice themselves every day. All throughout the OT, God said that sacrifice was not important, it was obedience and having a personal relationship with Him.
---Steveng on 11/19/06


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Not sure but doesn't that one commandment that God says "Love one another" in the New Testament? So that about covers all the other commandments. If we 'love one another' we wouldn't want to break any of the other commandments in the Old Testament.
---sue on 11/18/06


.steveng, you err. The Old Testament Laws and the New Testament Laws are completely different from each other. The Old Testament Laws are pro-death, and eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, and a life for a life; but the New Testament Laws are pro-life, do good to those who hurt you, when hit turn the other cheek, and love your enemies. Please read Matthew chapter 5.
---Eloy on 11/18/06


We are in the NT a New Creation in Christ Jesus. Our life is the very life of Christ in us. His law is written in our heart. Old things pass away. That would mean all worldliness and the things of this world. tatoos are worldly, earthly etc. Our bodies are the Temple of the Holy Spirit. When you have surrendered your life to the Lord Romans 12:1&2, your mind is renewed to living a Righteous, Godly and Holy life. Worldly things pass away. Who are you living for?
---kathr4453 on 11/18/06


When the Gentiles received the Holy Spirit,they weren't obeying the law & keeping all the jewish ordinances.The Apostles were unsure of what to tell the gentiles who had embraced the gospel.They sent them the instruction that they should not eat strangled meat,..& not live immoral life.Laws are abolished with the cross,however,as wise & good business people of the kingdom,we should not indulge in things that would give the kingdom we represent a bad image though those things are not bad in themselves.
---achor4849 on 11/18/06


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I agree with Eloy.

Steveng, the Old Testament (covenant) contained 600+ commands. Out of those 600+ only 9 of them were included in the New Testament for Christians to obey. But the 9 aren't the only commands contained in the New Covenant. We actually have about 180 commandments of Christ.
---Kay on 11/18/06


Eloy: The NT commandments are the same the OT commandments except Jesus abbreviated the ten into two. The first three commandments is the same as Love your God with all your heart... The rest of the commandments was abbreviated to simply Love your neighbor. If you truly love God, you wouldn't do the first three commandments, if you truly love your neighbor, you wouldn't do the other seven. Jesus also made the other 515 or so commandments even tougher by saying even if you think about them, it's a sin.
---Steveng on 11/17/06


The New Testament Laws are currrently inforce, and the Old Testament Laws are exactly that, they are abolished.
---Eloy on 11/16/06


Besides, you tell that to the 700,000 gang members in the United States who put tatoos on their bodies that recognize them of as part of a particular gang. Their tatoos are not an art form.
---Steveng on 11/16/06


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It is only a 'division' if you let it be. Not a divsion to me because I look at tatoo's as a picture or art and thats all. Nothing more. It's NOT the person or the social class or anything....just a picture.
---sue on 11/16/06


Wearing an earing is a sign of slavery. Tatoos are a sign of slavery. It was the same from the beginning as it is now in many countries. The Jewish people during the Holocaust were tatooed. Today is a culture thing, a culture fashion, and cultures cause division among people. To many people, tatoos, body piercings are dispicable - causing division.
---Steveng on 11/15/06


We are in the world but not of the world. So no I would not get a tatoo, plus many symbolize many things that do not represent our new life. If someone has 1 does that make them less of a Christian or not saved? No of course not. But sadly people judge so it can "limit" jobs,etc. But I knew a man that almost lost his arm it got infected badly so the body is the temple becareful what we do and what we represent.
---Jeanne on 11/15/06


"You can read the same scripture 100 different times on 100 different days and find something different (what you need most at the time) in that scripture every one." This makes understanding Scripture totally subjective. The Word of God is not play dough.
---walt on 11/15/06


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Walt, if F.F. (or any of the rest of us having a problem for that matter) ask God directly for guidance and listen to what He says, He will lead us to the places we need to be in His Word. There's a reason it's "the Living Word." You can read the same scripture 100 different times on 100 different days and find something different (what you need most at the time) in that scripture every one. No one's discounting God's Word, that would be counterproductive.
---Heather on 11/6/05


As believers in Jesus Christ, we are freed from the penalty of sin, not from keeping commandments. The main difference is that we now keep the commandments out of love, not fear of judgment. As the Apostle Paul said, " There is therefore now no condemnation..." There is nothing and no-one that can ever separate us from the love of God.
---tommy3007 on 11/5/05


Some will tell you to listen to God speaking to you. If we rely on that and ignore His Word, where does that leave us? As some would say "God spoke to me and told me to do it." Where is it in the Word? God has already spoken in His Word.
---walt on 11/5/05


F.F., don't listen to any of us here (too many opinions-some right some not-being aired out for it to really help you any). Ask God directly and He will tell you Himself which of His laws to follow.
---Heather on 11/4/05


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part 1: "But if the ministry of death, written engraved in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly see the face of Moses for the glory of his look; which was to be done away: How will not the ministry of the Spirit be rather glorious?" II Corinthians 3:7,8.
---Eloy on 11/4/05


part 2: "And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not steadfastly look to the end of that which is abolished. But their minds were blinded: for up to this day remains the same vail untaken away in the reading of the Old Testament; which is done away in Christ. But even up to this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it will turn to the Lord, the vail will be taken away." II Corinthians 3:13-16.
---Eloy on 11/4/05


part 3: "I do not set aside the grace of God: for if righteousness by the Law, then Christ died in vain. Therefore the Law was our tutor till Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a tutor. But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forward his Son, made of a woman, made under the Law, to redeem them that were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption of sons." Galatians 2:21; 3:24,25; 4:4,5.
---Eloy on 11/4/05


part 4: "But now, after that you all have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn you all again to the weak and beggarly elements, to where you all desire again to be in bondage? You all observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, else I have bestowed upon you labor in vain." Galatians 4:9-11.
---Eloy on 11/4/05


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part 5: "Tell me, you all that desire to be under the Law, do you all not hear the Law? For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two Covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which genders to bondage, which is Agar. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all." Galatians 4:21,22,24,26.
---Eloy on 11/4/05


part 6: "evertheless what says the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman will not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brothers, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free. Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ has made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage." Galatians 4:30,31; 5:1.
---Eloy on 11/4/05


part 7: "Christ is become of no effect to you, whosoever of you are justified by the Law; you all are fallen from grace. A little leaven leavens the whole lump. But if you all be led by the Spirit, you all are not under the Law. Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, the Law of Commandments in decrees; for to make in himself of the two one new man, making peace." Galatians 5:4,9,18; Ephesians 2:15.
---Eloy on 11/4/05


part 8: For there is truly a disannulling of the Commandment going before, for the weakness and unprofitableness of it. For the Law perfected nothing, but a bringing in of a better hope by which we draw near to God. By so much security, Jesus indeed parent of a better Testament. Then said he, Here I come to do your will, O God. He takes away the first, that he may establish the second. Hebrews 7:18,19,22; 10:9.
---Eloy on 11/4/05


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We're not released from ANY of God's laws ANYWHERE in the Bible. The only thing Jesus's crucifiction and resurrection freed us from is blood sacrifice. God's laws never change. What God said "Thou shalt..." do in the 10 commandments is still in effect.
---Heather on 11/3/05


I think the bottom line is ... the Bible is full of parallels, and they go like this: God warns through prophecy to stop sinning, repent, and obey... Someone interprets the prophecy... a few people (remnant) listen and are saved from death. How many times did this happen? Clearly (Rev12:17) this same pattern will be followed at the very end. Prophecy, interpetation, REPENT/OBEY, remnant will be saved. Obey the 10 commandments, but Jesus freed us from the ceremonial laws that pointed to Him.
---casey on 11/3/05


Prt 2
Is today's church really what He died to establish? People debating on a tattoo? Aren't there better things to debate like..."All of my days, I want to praise, the wonders of Your mighty love." Should we praise His wonders or praise Him for the wonders of His love?
---Ron_&_Melissa on 10/11/05


As Christians we have a standard, the world knows exactly what it is and holds it over our heads and calls us hypocrites every chance they get. The standard is HOLYNESS. Not law, HOLYNESS. What good does it do for Jesus to tell us to "come out from among them and be separate" if we are going to wear their unholy, over revealing clothing? or partake of the world's entertainment? Where is the HOLYNESS that Christ died to establish.

Moderator - I agree the Holyness of Christians is so very important to set us apart. Without Holyness, how do we stand out from the world and how would we enter into His presence.
---Ron_&_Melissa on 10/11/05


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OK "free from the law" group, if we are "bound by the law of love in Christ," then why don't you obey Christ when He says "If you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15)?"
Well I don't know if I am in thefre from the law group but how would you know I do not keep the law of love?
---rache on 10/10/05


Thank you Jerry, I am so glad you said that.
---F.F. on 10/10/05


The New Covenant law goes deeper than the ten commandments written on tablets of stone. It goes to the heart of the matter.

"Except your righteousness EXCEED the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no wise enter into the Kingdom of heaven." What was the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees? The Mosaic Law. Not "laws" or "a law" but "the Mosaic Law" written on tablets of stone.
---Linda on 10/10/05


Jesus commandments were, "Love the Lord thy God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength and thy neighbor as thyself."

The law of love is a much higher law than the ten commandments standing alone. The ten commandments standing alone said, "Thou shalt not kill." The law of love (the law fulfilled by Christ) said, "If you even hate your brother without a cause, it is murder."
---Linda on 10/10/05


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What was the purpose for the law? To bring us unto the Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 3:23, For ALL have sinned. The laws of God is like the laws of our government, guidelines on how we should live. Most people can not handle the 10 commandments given to Moses, how are they to keep all 613 points of it? Answer, we can not! By God's grace, Christ freed us, so we can live the best way we can for God.
---geraa7578 on 10/10/05


OK "free from the law" group, if we are "bound by the law of love in Christ," then why don't you obey Christ when He says "If you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15)?" "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:4) He was after all the Lawgiver on Mt. Sinai.
---jerry6593 on 10/10/05


Pierr, thank you for your compliment. Please read I Corinthians 8:2.
---Eloy on 10/10/05


What we obey is the law of love and grace in a spirit of freedom. Free from the law of sin and death and bound to the law of love in Christ.
---rache on 10/9/05


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F.F.: OK, got you. I hope you've seen I am consistent in my understanding of the Bible. I do *not* believe that we are under any O.T. laws, but what God (through Christ and the Apostles) commands the Chruch and Christians to do. In many cases even more difficult than a set of rules! No one can live their life for God without the Spirit. To God be all the glory, Amen.
---Daniel on 10/9/05


3. I believe the only O.T. practices not valid today are those that N.T. states clearly are not e.g. no more need to sacrifice animals because Jesus sacrificed Himself for us. I was questioning a seeming inconsistency on the part of some here, not asking what I personally should do.
---F.F. on 10/9/05


2. The two I used were simply examples of some that have previously been discussed. I do not intend to have a tattoo or piercings, or tithe in the O.T. way which moderator talks about. I have read the whole bible many times Daniel, many versions, many ways and still believe we need both Old and New Testaments.
---F.F. on 10/9/05


1. Are you going to get one on your forehead or arm that states: "Owned by God!" or will it just be something frivolous? Wasn't my question clear enough Daniel to show that I was querying why some O.T. laws are considered still valid by some whilst others are not?
---F.F. on 10/9/05


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Paul said...all things are lawful but not all are expedient.....if we have a relationship with CHRIST then all things are covered by the law(of grace)(these mess ups will not have dire punishments(HELL))but may have earthly punishments or circumstances to you or someone else!
All things (such as tatoos)should be thought through and prayed about (alot).
LOVE JESUS
---co_ach on 10/9/05


The New Testament is the continuation of the Old Testament. As a matter of fact, it's the fulfillment of everything written in the OT, the central of the whole Bible is Jesus Christ, being prophet, priest & king. OT is important as the NT. It was given by God to man & God never changes. He still abhors now everything He abhors in the OT times.
---irene5653 on 10/9/05


[Pt.2]You mention tatoos. Are you going to get one on your forehead or arm that states: "Owned by God!" or will it just be something frivilous? Although there are many answers in the N.T. about what to do in specific situations, at times God wants you to use our MIND to decide if something is wise or not. For many things, we are told not to do what could "cause a brother to stumble" in spite of our 'freedom'(Romans14).
---Daniel on 10/9/05


[Pt.1]F.F.: To know how to live as a Christian, READ ALL the N.T. see what God asks of us! It's mostly about living your life FOR HIM out of love for saving you; and *not* for yourself. Those who think it can be summarized into a set of "laws," might not have His Spirit living in them! God commands us to NEVER have sex with anyone but a spouse, but not everything about our bodies is given in rules. "Will this glorify God?" is primarily what Believers should ask. [CONT.]
---Daniel on 10/9/05


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Eloy: I must urge the readers to carefully examine your answer, for while you may mean well, I know your answer is not correct and better answers are available.
---Pierre on 10/9/05


We are bound by every command in the New Testament, and we are free from every command in the Old Testament. The O.T. is the levitical law in B.C. (Before Christ), and the N.T. is the judaic law in A.D. (anno domini= in the annual of the Lord). After salvation you do not go back and serve the O.T. again, else you will fall from the grace which has saved you, and you put yourself back in bondage under the curse. The Galatians did this which deeply troubled Paul. Please read Galatians chapter 4 and 5.
---Eloy on 10/8/05


Let's move to the 'bottom line'. The thing to ask is not "am I free from the OT law" but rather am I free to serve Christ? In a situation where we are not sure what to do, also ask yourself, "what would Jesus do?" It's not a matter of can or can't but will it glorify Christ?
---WIVV on 10/8/05


Acts 13:39 Romans 3:26-31 \ 4:14-16 \ 6:12-18 Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. 3:11-28 Wherefor the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by. 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 5:4
Ephesians 2:8 Titus 3:4-7
---Ulrika on 10/8/05


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Jesus didn't release us from anything except blood sacrifice. We always have been and always will be accountable to the 10 commandments.
---Heather on 10/8/05


"I think that the "free from the law" crowd just wants cheap grace, or perhaps license to sin."

First of all, grace isn't cheap. Neither is it a license. Grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts. We have been delivered from the law and from license. We never needed a license to sin because we had a nature to sin. Even our righteousness was as a filthy rag.
---Linda_Smith on 10/8/05


Great Question I agree with the group that agrees WITH the law. There is a great article by Awareness Ministry called IS THE LAW OF GOD ILLEGAL? Written by Robert Somerville which makes excellent points about rightly dividing the word of God. I dont believe God did away with the law but Jesus came to fulfill it. God is the same yesterday, today and always likewise Grace isnt only a NT concept but was always present even in the OT.
---Ann on 10/8/05


Then God spoke much advice, counsel, day to day advice--do this, do that, go here, etc. These are also called His "commandments" or laws. See 1 Samuel 15:13, 22-24. To disobey these was sin, but these change depending on circumstances, condition of heart, faith, etc. In other words, God might say Go at one time, and say No, Stay! at another time. These were simply His word to them at a given time. Does this help? I will be away till early November, but will love to explore this further.
---Wayne87 on 10/8/05


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The whole sacrificial system was designed by God to reveal the way back to harmony with Himself. It revealed Christ as man's Atonement, Mediator, Sacrifice. These laws were not written in stone, not in the ark in the Most Holy Place. They pointed to the One to come. Jesus has come and no longer is there any more sacrifice or offering for sin. He did it once.

Because men disobey His law, then refused to be reconciled to Him, God gave them civil laws that punished the transgressor.
---Wayne87 on 10/8/05


God wrote His great law of love in human language on tables of stone. We call this the moral law--eternal, binding, truth. Israel did not have a heart to obey (Deut 5:29). They said we can do it! God knew they couldn't so He gave them another law defining sacrifices, ceremonies, ordinances, etc. all designed to reveal to them a Savior, the way of forgiveness. Note that it was a sin to break the moral law. It was not a sin to refuse the offer of forgiveness and bring an offering in repentance.
---Wayne87 on 10/8/05


Let look at it another way: If we are free from the law, then it is ok to commit murder or adultry. Jesus did not come to free us from the law, but the penitilies of the law. The law is a schoolmaster which shows us we need a savior. Without the law, we don't know we are a sinner and need a Savior. Christ fulfilled the law, not done away with it.
---Rev_Herb on 10/8/05


CONT'D. This gets particularly confusing when one considers that Christ Himself is the central subject of the OT; the Lawgiver of Mt. Sinai, and one who claims that he never changes (Heb 13:8). I think that the "free from the law" crowd just wants cheap grace, or perhaps license to sin. They should become Catholic and buy some indulgences.
---jerry6593 on 10/8/05


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Most people seem to be confused on this issue. They readily proclaim their freedom from the OT law on the basis of Paul's writings, which even Peter admitted were difficult to understand (2 Pet 3:16), while ignoring the direct counsel of the Captain of their faith that not one jot or tittle should pass from the law while heaven and earth remain (Matt 5:18).
---jerry6593 on 10/8/05


The thing that confuses me is that moderator on the one hand seems to be saying tithing is old testament so we don't need to tithe. So why, as don't have a tatoo is old testament is he saying that we have to adhere to that command. I need an explanation why some old testament things still apply and some old testament things no longer apply. Unless new testament makes it clear (example nothing that God has made is unclean)I feel that O.T. still applies.

Moderator - We can't tithe if we wanted to because it isn't possible. We can give 10%, but it isn't called a tithe as practiced in the OT. Nobody on the planet practices tithing as practiced in the OT. The principle of giving, however never changed. Please refer back to scriptures given in the Tithing blog for information.
---F.F. on 10/8/05


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