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Explain The Trinity Doctrine

Is the doctrine of the trinity Christian? If as taught they're equal, who was Jesus praying to as he hung dying?Who resurected Him if he was dead? Whose will was He doing?

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 ---david on 10/13/05
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The trinity teaches that God asked himself to go to earth to save mankind.
Then he agreed with himself and volunteered himself to himself to offer himself.
Then God impregnated a woman as himself, with himself.
God prayed to himself and glorified himself repeatedly.
God strengthened himself and talked to himself.
Finally God forsook himself and sacrificed himself to prove his
loyalty to himself.
While dead he resurrected himself so he could exalt himself above himself.
Then he sat at his own right hand and waited til he placed his enemies
as a footstool
Finally with Satan's forces defeated God would turn his kingdom over to himself
That all things would become everything to himself
---donal on 7/13/10


"The Jews were renowned...the Romans thought notorious, for believing in one God. There was complete agreement by the Jews on this point. No compromise would ever be acceptable. And this stand was not the ticket to popularity in the ancient world." The Unfinished Reformation
---scott on 5/5/08


"The adoption of a non-biblical phrase at Nicea constituted a landmark in the growth of dogma: the Trinity is true, since the Church - the universal Church speaking by its Bishops - says so, though the Bible does not! [...] We have a formula, but what does that formula contain? No child of the Church dare seek to answer." - Encyclopedia Britannica, 14th Edition [1936], 7:501, 502, "Dogma, Dogmatics Theology".
---Scott on 4/15/08


New Catholic Encyclopedia- "The formulation 'one God in three Persons' was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even REMOTELY APPROACHING such a mentality or perspective." New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. XIV, p. 299

(emphasis added)
---scott on 3/25/08


The apostles walked,talked,ate etc with Jesus for more than 3 yrs. there was a controversy of just "who" He was .Mat.16 13-16 Jesus asks"who do people say the Son of man is?" some said Elijah,John the baptist,Jeremiah ..." Jesus asks them face-to-face :who do you say I am?" (what a wonderful opportunity to say "you are God" ) Peter said "Christ,SON of the living God" Jesus said "My Father IN HEAVEN revealed it to you!"
---1st_cliff on 3/25/08




Lupe.go back and read all my posts you will find I said Christ is God's Word made flesh,the only flesh God had,for God is a Spirit.I am saying God doesn't require believing in Trinity teaching to be saved and be a Christian,only that all believe in Christ and all He did for us.Belief in Christ saves us and makes us a Christian.The Bible doesn't say believe in the Trinity and be saved but believe in Jesus Christ and be saved.To make anything else a requirement for being a saved Christian isn't Bible.
---Darlene_1 on 6/21/07


The trinity Doctrine was written by the council of Niacia under Constentine Emperor of Rome the Arians were teaching the Oneness doctrine and the Church was divided, this effort to bring the church together failed as it has even today, we are to believe jesus is the Son of God to be saved not a Godhead.
---Exzucuh on 4/8/06


2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. they are one in the Holy Spirit. he who has not this Doctine is anti-christ
---Exzucuh on 4/8/06


We serve ONE GOD who consists of three persons ... the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Jesus Himself said so in Matthew 28:19. Scriptures confirm this from Genesis thru Revelation.
---vea4696 on 4/7/06


"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." God's total revelation, gospel in all its fullness, which centers in the incarnation and crucifixion of Christ; the entire divine plan and provision for the redemption of sinners, which is the theme of all Scripture, is in view. Foolishness translates the word from which "moron" is derived.
---Lupe2618a on 11/23/05




Elder; Who "revealed" these revealed scriptures to you? Mary Baker Eddy claimed that the Holy Spirit revealed Christian Science to her! Satan is revealing many things (under the guise of HS) Tell me how you know that the things revealed to you are "true and genuine" What is your "bench mark?" (don't say Jesus 'cause they all say that)
---1st_cliff on 11/22/05


Cliff we are hashing out old things again.
You should prove all things but you don't do that by explaining them away and rejecting revealed Scripture.
You have been influenced by a man who was influenced by Eastern religions and cults and saturated by lies.
I can see by some of your answers his teaching rubbed off.
I told you this way long ago before you revealed Campbell.
---Elder on 11/21/05


Elder; 1st thes.5.21-"PROVE all things"(KJV)
---1st_cliff on 11/20/05


Elder;Heb.11.1 "(NIV)Faith is being SURE of what we hope for and CERTAIN of what we do not see" Credulity is believing heresay! Unless I'm sure or certain,I don't accept it. Do you? Sure God can be a multitude if He wants,but don't mean He is! Think on this- Catholic "assumption" God wanted it,He could do it, therefore it was done! Why do millions of Mormans believe Joseph Smith was a true prophet? because they were "told" Why do B'hai believe Baha-O-Allah? same reason!
---1st_cliff on 11/18/05


Cliff I mean what I say. I enjoyed our time together.
I would like to see you change your focus from "Why it can't be" To "Why it can be" in your efforts to understand some issues.
Many say God can do anything. Then they say He can do anything except be a Trinity.
We do not have the capacity to understand the mind of God or look on His Holiness.
Cond #2-->
---Elder on 11/18/05


Cond #2-->
Jesus was not created, HE created. He was not formed in John 1, He formed in Gen 1. He had no beginning, He began everything.
How come if God can do everything it took Jesus to open the Book in the Revelation?
You see there are different aspects of His ministry.
Watch my friend our time is running very short.
---Elder on 11/18/05


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Elder ;Thanks for your kind wors,Just because Joseph Campbell had a tremedous knowledge of occult and eastern religions,didn't make him one of them. I try not to be too narrow in my thinking,Myth and legend play a big part in all religions of the world! I don't reject "bible doctrine but I may reject some "fundamentaist" doctrine that has roots from Babylon!
---1st_cliff on 11/18/05


Cliff listen to Daniel. Please tell me how you can reject the RCC doctrine of anything, as wrong as they may be, and still embrace the teaching of Joseph Campbell? This person saturated with Eastern religions and Cultic practices and men who taught him error carried the message of error on to others even you. In finding fault with others have you not seen your own errors in upbringing and have rejected Bible doctrine? Time to look my friend for we do love you and want the best for you.
---Elder on 11/17/05


1st cliff: The trinity that I learned is "One God existing in three Persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit!"
---Linda6546 on 11/17/05


1st cliff: ice-cold water or tap water is H2O. Water vapor of steam is H2O. Ice is also H2O. Ice, ice-cold water, and steam are all made of water:H2O!
---Linda6546 on 11/17/05


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1st Cliff: I will not wait for your answer anymore because I would not want you to tell me that I am doing a blasphemy to God by pursuing mima's analogy. Mima was trying to use the "phases of water" to explain the Trinity to you. I wish to use the atomic element to explain the same thing. You are familiar with "soot"? How about "charcoal"? What about "Diamond"? Soot, charcoal and diamond are made of the same element:CARBON!
I hope you can deduce what I mean!
---Linda6546 on 11/17/05


1st ciff: you told mima that her analogy regarding "water" and "trinity" is not right because H2O is made of two elements? You mean God is an "atomic element"? If I can give you an "atomic element" that can exist in three different "names" or "nature", then would you believe that Trinity can exist?
---Linda_6546 on 11/17/05


1st cliff, mima was telling you that steam and water are made of the same "elements". I believe she was trying to impart to you that the "elements" she is mentioning is that "steam" and "rain" are both water. You said that water is made of two different elements that is hydrogen and oxygen.
---Linda_6546 on 11/17/05


1st cliff, I was reacting to your post to mima whenyou told her that liquid water, ice and steam (water vapor) cannot exist at the same time. The Triple point of water I was telling you is a condition by which the three "phases" of water exist side by side. Ice is solid water. Ice-cold water is liquid water, while steam or water vapor is gaseous water! Ice, steam ice-cold water are all made of Water!
---Linda_6546 on 11/17/05


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1st_cliff: Your ignorance of Church History is showing. We call it the "Reformation" because not every single doctrine of the RCC had corrupt beginnings! Christians believed the Triune nature of God long before RCC existed. Triune nature of God was attacked MANY times before the RCC ever dealt with it. By Marcion,c.110, Ebionites, Montanus,c.150, Monarchianism,c.190, Sabbelius,etc. Triunity IS Christian; not only RCC.
---Daniel on 11/16/05


The Father sent the Son (Jesus) and the Son sent the Holy Spirit. This sums up the trinity....AND means "as well as", in other words another person, as in John 10:30 "I AND My Father are one". And yet God is ONE. This requires faith. To step into trying to reason this out one actually steps into unbelief. We will understand it in heaven.
---Helen_5378 on 11/15/05


Linda6546:Trinitarians don't believe that Father Son and HS "co-exist" but are in fact the same person.When liquid,vapor and ice,co-exist "side by side, liquid and ice and vapor are not all 3 elements at the very same time, but as you put it "co-exist!" Monetheism was the standard for God's people for 4,000 yrs. Where do you think the protestant churches got the trinity doctrine from if not the RCC?
---1st_cliff on 11/14/05


1st Cliff, the doctrine of TRINITY is not owned "solely" by the Roman Catholic Church. The Protestant churches believe the existence of Trinity which is ONE GOD in THREE PERSONS. The same is true with your belief in MONOTHEISM (that is, ONE GOD with only ONE PERSON). It is shared by the Muslims and the Church of Christ in the Philippines (or Iglesia ni Kristo).
---Linda6546 on 11/14/05


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I am very sorry, 1st cliff, to inform you that water, ice and steam (water vapor) can exist side by side in a special condition and situation that brings about the TRIPLE POINT of Water! Liquid Water, solid water(ice), gaseous water(water vapor) can coexist in a triple point cell at a temperature of 273.16 Kelvin, and pressure of 611.2 Pascals!
---Linda6546 on 11/14/05


Mima; problem with your analogy is that vapor ice and water do not exist all at the same time! besides water H2o is two elements hydrogen and oxygen!
---1st_cliff on 11/13/05


The trinity was explained to me this way- water is water correct? O.K. Now steam is water-ice is water- and the rain is water!!!
Here we have three different elments yet all are the same thing!!!---mima 11/13/2005
---mima on 11/13/05


Daniel;NO insults were intended,I was simply making a point.I cannot ,from my personal study,see that God(Father) and Jesus are the same person.When you think about it ,there's realy no point.You yourself said there's only one God.(He doesn't need 2 other alter- egos) He's happy having a "Son". If you have a good son you'll know how He feels!,especially if he looks up to you as a "role model".
---1st_cliff on 11/12/05


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1st_cliff: Show me where I called you a JW. In one post I said I was assuming you were, if you didn't answer... you did, saying no... I got that.
In my last post here, I said you must be reading their literature because of *how* you're arguing against the deity of Christ... how is that calling you a memeber of the Watchtower society? I've seen others say you must be a JW, but I'm no longer even implying that, so don't insult me, please!
---Daniel on 11/12/05


David, Jesus was praying to his Father, our Father, THE Father, Almighty God. An old-testament passage says "There are many gods and many lords but one Almighty." Over 1400 times in the Old Testament, and 4 times in the New Testament appears in the Hebrew and Aramaic text YHVH, or JHVH, Yahweh or Jehovah, as Almighty God's name. Previously, the Almighty was known as "The Great I AM." Jesus himself said "hallowed be THY name," telling us to honor his Father, Jehovah God.
---dale on 11/10/05


Daniel; Are you Catholic? The trinity is their "central doctrine"(Catholic encyclopedia) Like you they believe Jesus is/was God and his earthly mother was Mary , So like you they believe that Mary was the mother of God!right? The Mormans believe in the immortality of the soul ,are you a Morman? So do the Muslims! Does what you believe Denominalize you?
---1st_cliff on 11/10/05


(cc:Ulrika) 1st_cliff: Cliff, you claim to not be a JW, but you obviously read JW literature from your relatives and agree with it; at least regarding Jesus. You refuse to accept the clear and direct passages proclaiming the deity of Christ (John 1:1-3; 17:5, etc.), and make up 'your own god' instead. We can only pray that the Spirit will finally come into your life and open your eyes to the truth. Amen.
---Daniel on 11/10/05


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1st Cliff, Isaiah 7:14 Jesus is called Immanuel (God with us) Isaiah 9:6 Jesus is called The Mighty God, The everlasting Father. John 1:1 Jesus is called the Word. The Word was God. Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever.
How can anyone, who claims to know scripture deny Jesus is God, and claim he is a Christian? What verse in scripture says Jesus emptied himself? Colossaians 2:9 What verse said Jesus is not God?
---Ulrika on 11/10/05


Yes Cliff. So did I.
---M.A. on 11/10/05


Elder; I inherited it (Adamic sin) from my great grandparent, Adam! Same as you.
---1st_cliff on 11/9/05


Cliff did you ever eat of that tree that Adam did?
If you didn't what made you a sinner or are you a sinner?
---Elder on 11/9/05


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Darrin, Jesus didn't empty Himself of His Deity. Interested in knowing how we can be sure of that? He was not born in sin. He was born of a virgin (immaculate conception); you don't need anyone to remind you of that, I'm sure. Every last one of us is born insin because of the necessary union between a man and woman>That's not Jesus's origins.All believers try to live in complete submission to God and ALL FAIL MISERABLY because of our sin nature.
---Heather on 11/9/05


Daniel; You're right in saying it "might"mean that, and pick one that suits your understanding of it. When compared "only begotten" and "Christ,the first fruits" it might mean "beginning" or "first cause" Since God is from everlasting to everlasting ,Jn 1.1 is presenting the Logos' beginning.
---1st_cliff on 11/9/05


People, Jesus did not live a sinless life as a result of being God. Rather, he lived it as a result of submission to the Father and being empowered by the Holy Spirit. I am not suggesting that he is not/was not God, but rather that he put this aside to become like us in every way. He did it the way we should do it and the way Adam COULD have done it if he had chosen to obey.
---Darrin on 11/9/05


[Pt*2] And just to be sure we really understand that, John adds: "All things were created by Him, and apart from him not one thing was created that has been created!"(v.3) So, in light of that, Rev3:14 should be understood when speaking of the 2nd Person of the Triunity of God, that True and Faithful Witness, as the: "Originator of God's Creation" (not one who was ever created Himself).
---Daniel on 11/8/05


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[Pt*1] Since Rev3:14 was mentioned below, this is a good place to bring this up: When interpreting the Bible, unclear meanings (Gk.word "archE" in this verse might mean: "Beginning, Ruler or Originator/First Cause") must look to clearer passages to understand them; *not* be used to try disproving more significant passages! John 1:1-3 clearly tells us that the WORD (Jesus preincarnate) was with God BEFORE creation started (cf. John17:5 too!) [CONT.]
---Daniel on 11/8/05


Ulrika;How long did Adam live a "sinless"life before eating from the forbidden tree? If he never ate from it he would/could have still been here living a sinless life! Right or wrong?
---1st_cliff on 11/8/05


Joseph Campbell was a speaker/writer who lived 1904 to 1987. He said, "Myth is the secret opening through which the inexhaustible energies of the cosmos pour into human manifestation." He was raised Roman Catholic.
Campbell was greatly influenced by the "Philosopher" Arthur Schopenhauer who lived from 1788 to 1860, such a glum angry person his mother forbade him from her home because he would argue with her social guests about the uselessness of everything.
Cond #2-->
---Elder on 11/8/05


Cond #2-->
His views of women were that they were, "Directly fitted for acting as the nurses and teachers of our early childhood by the fact that they are themselves childish, frivolous and shortsighted; in a word, they are big children all their life long." He further said, "They are an "undersized, narrow-shouldered, broad-hipped and short legged race, they have no proper knowledge of any; and they have no genius."
Cond #3--->
---Elder on 11/8/05


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Cond #3--->
In his writings he said that the Holy Ghost wrote certain paragraphs Himself.
He was seen as a lonely, violent and unbefriended man who shared his bachelor's life with a Poodle.
He was influenced by the "Spinozistic" view or the Naturalistic School of philosophy.
This philosophy was founded by Benedict de Spinoza 1632-1677.
Cond #4---->
---Elder on 11/8/05


Cond #4---->
Spinoza believed in Pantheistic Monism.
This belief says God does not love or hate, lives and moves in nature, the Universe is God, man has imagined God to be like him and there is no personal God.
Because of his beliefs Spinoza was known in his lifetime and a century after his death as a man of appalling wickedness.
It is here that Cliff says that he reads a man who was influenced by Eastern religions and Cultic practices and men who taught him error.
Cond #5----->
---Elder on 11/8/05


Cond #5----->
This includes Hinduism, Taoism, the New Age movement and Mysticism and others.
Charles Manson, before he murdered Sharon Tate, practiced these things.
What happened and is happening is written in Rom 1:25....Read and Heed.
---Elder on 11/8/05


Ulrika, you're right. I wonder how much more proof anyone needs about Jesus's deity than this: He lived a 100% sinless, perfect life.
---Heather on 11/8/05


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When someone says Jesus is not God, it sends up a red flag to me.
What I really would like to know is why the moderator does not respond to some of the remarks by Cliff.
How did Jesus lived a sinless live if he was only man.
---Ulrika on 11/8/05


Ron,thank you for your answer.I had never heard that before.Sometimes I wonder ,aside from what you told me,if people aren't sometimes using the same discriptions to say opposite things.I believe there is the Godhead,Father,Son, and Holy Ghost and these three are one,all God.Others say it the same way except for "these three are one,all God" but call it Trinity.We all know everything is God and of God and there is nothing formed without God.God Bless
---Darlene_1 on 11/8/05


There are too many authors of contention here. This debate is now serving no purpose than to make people who may be new and/or shaky in their faith doubt and maybe even turn away from it. Stop and think about that.
---Heather on 11/8/05


I think we have all strayed off the path by these constant bickerings, to the point that the orignal question has all but been forgotten. Christianity is not about religion. Its a relationship-with Jesus!
---joe on 11/8/05


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To answer your questions, I'm a loner in my pursuit,I've attended most mainstream churches and don't "fit in".Studdied most denominations,found some truth in all.My wife is penticostal(we get along fine) Some of my relatives are JWs (they don't talk to me) M.i.l. is a religious fanatic (we get along fine as long as we dont discuss religion) My wife says "you'll never find anyone who believes the same as you" (Maybe she's right) I like Joseph Campbell's books.
---1st_cliff on 11/8/05


1st Cliff, so your interpretation of scripture is right and everyone else's is wrong. I am not inpressed with you knowing Greek or Hebrew. You are just off the path as the rest of us, if not more. You believe what you want to believe. I know denominations are not 100% correct. At least it is not all over the map, so it hardly can be destinguished as Christian.
---Ulrika on 11/8/05


to the JW's - please look first at the character of your founder - Charles Taze Russell before you even talk about God.
As a former JW - I can honestly state that this sect is a non-christian cult, birth by Satan himself - Apostle Paul calls this 'another gospel, another jesus, another spirit'
lee
---stanley on 11/8/05


1st_cliff: OK, as per Ulrika's question, let's try this: Do you meet with anyone else at all who believes in many of the same things you do? And if so, what LEGAL organization name does this group of people use to refer to themselves? Or are you 100% all on your own; never go to any meetings of any kind anywhere to discuss or listen to what others believe about God? (If I had to make a judgment, I'd assume you're a 'Jehovah's Witness'; are you?)
---Daniel on 11/7/05


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Ulrika; I 'm a believer and follower of Jesus (and HIS teaching) I think you don't recognize this because the church has strayed (evolved) so far off the path!I see denominations as "packaged religion" that I don't subscribe to!
---1st_cliff on 11/7/05


1st Cliff, my religion is Christian. My denomination is Baptist. Now, what is your religion and denomination?
---Ulrika on 11/7/05


Lupe;Maybe you're right,maybe we have a different Jesus!My Jesus was born sept/oct,yours was born dec.25(Nimrod's birthday) My Jesus was the "Son" of God ,yours "IS" God.My J died for me,yours is an Immortal" God (couldn't die) My J was resurrected by His Father (act.2.24) Yours resurrected Himself.My J's Father was greater than Him(Jn.14.23) Yours is co-equal. Mine was "begotten"(rev,3.14) yours is co-eternal. Maybe you're right, maybe they are different!
---1st_cliff on 11/7/05


1st Cliff what religion are you?
---Ulrika on 11/7/05


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The Jehovah's witness have another Jesus...they believe Jesus was the archangel Michael who came to earth as Jesus then returned to heaven as Michael. The Mormons have another Jesus. They believe Jesus and Satan are brothers. Some do believe in anotehr Jesus!
---ron on 11/7/05


Lupe,I don't understand where you get the Jesus some believe in isn't the same Jesus.There's only one Jesus Christ ,Son of God, Word made flesh,Creator,Saviour.The Bible speaks of corrupting the simplicity which is in Christ,Jesus made it easy for salvation,but you are trying to add other things to believing on Jesus for Salvation.I don't know where you are coming from.You lump people together, judge them unsaved because they believe in another Jesus?I don't know what you are talking about.
---Darlene_1 on 11/7/05


4. Darlene, in defending the Trinity with you I put down many things and I want you to know that the word is not in Scripture, But the definition of the Trinity is what I put down. I don't know if you believe that or not. I can put so much on it to explain but it is not necessary. I hope you understand the point of was making with Cliffs attack on the Godhead of God, if not I am sorry you don't understand.
---Lupe2618 on 11/7/05


3. The study of the Trinity and knowing the concept does not save anyone. It is believing the Gospel and repenting. But you cannot call yourself a Christian if your Jesus is not the same Jesus the Christians believe. Christians have differences in many area's in Scripture but the essentials of the Christian faith are the same for every Christian. I will leave you in your thoughts and do what you want. But don't accuse me of something I didn't say.
---Lupe2618 on 11/7/05


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2. I had put down all of the facts concerning the Trinity to you and Darlene. What bothers you is that I said you were not a Christian and many Jehovah Witnesses want to call themselves Christians and they are not because they believe in a different Jesus. Now if you want to believe what you want it is up to you. I cannot make you be something that I want but can only give you the facts. Do with them what you wish but don't put words in my answers.
---Lupe2618 on 11/7/05


Brother Cliff, I only have time to answer you. First of all I never said you were not saved. I never said you had to believe the gospel according to me. I explained what the concept of the trinity is to a person. I explained that if you do not believe the concept you are not a Christian. If you are not a Christian you are something other then a Christian. All the facts of the trinity are in Scripture and Christians believe on them.
---Lupe2618 on 11/7/05


I believe that Jesus (one part of the Trinity) not the entire Godhead, walked this earth. Jesus prayed to God in the Garden of Gethsemane and whilst on the cross. He asked his disciples to watch and pray, to the Father, not to Himself standing beside them.
---M.P. on 11/7/05


Alan, the reason Jesus cried this is because being 100% God he was now becoming sin. That is awesome, he became sin for us, who knew no sin. Thus was the darkness all over the world from 12 noon until 3:00 p.m., indeed i believe in all creation was darkness for 3 hours.
---Eloy on 11/7/05


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cliff, that's a simple question. The Spirit of Christ always has an eye on Satan. Just because God put on flesh, doesn't mean that his Spirit could not be in more than one place at a time. "And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, ALL Power is given to me in heaven and in earth. For in him dwells ALL the fulness of the Godhead bodily." Matthew 28:18; Colossians 2:9.
---Eloy on 11/7/05


Eloy; Let me try to follow your thinking here. You state that Jesus was not "seperate from the Father and HG" Are you saying that the complete "Godhead"(as you call it) walked the earth for 33 1/2 years? Who was keeping an eye on satan while They/He was in the manger?
---1st_cliff on 11/6/05


!st Cliff::why do you NOT believe in the Blessed trinity? But yet believe in the mythology of Babolynian Egyptian& Hinduism.where is the connection that this has any thing to do with Jesus's Chtristianity,& his teachings.Is it because you are unable to grasp the concept of 3 persons in one god?NO one can & that is why we are called by faith to believe.the appearance of the 3 distinct persons who were present at Jesus Baptism, in the Jordan.Mat3-V16-17:Mk1V10-11:Luke321-22Jn!V31-34
---Emcee on 11/6/05


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