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Can You Loose Your Salvation

Can you loose your salvation?

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 ---natasha on 10/14/05
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Luke 12:36-48, Gal 5:1-8,
---Bruce5656 on 11/29/07

Rom 3:24-25 states we're justified by Christ Jesus...for the remission of sins that are PAST. not present or future sins
I agree no one can pluck us from God's hand, but--we have a choice to make everyday to live for him or not. better live like we can lose our salvation like the Bible says. He's holier than He's we're giving him credit for
---r.w. on 6/8/06

In Hospice I have seen people struggle to stay alive in amazing pain. Usually for the people they love. I feel that it is indeed a great act of faith to let go and let God. I think that sometimes there is some will in it. God can be pretty convincing either way. I am sorry for your loss, deeply, both of you, any of you who have went through this. I have seen and heard the giggles and peace of the dieing. I belive it is a healing in itself.
---Alexandra on 3/17/06

I don't know people. If you accept Jesus as Gods son and then later denie it, don't belive it anymore....wouldn't you loose your salvation????
---Alexandra on 3/17/06

Great answer Ronnie, I am glad that you too feel the security of Christ. It is when you feel it that makes you secured. Others that are working at making sure they don't fail depend on themselves instead of on God. They forget that we have a helper. A comforter that will guide us in the way of the Lord. More is put on what man can do then what God can do. It is that way with people that think they save themselves.
---Lupe2618 on 11/21/05

Natasha,if God who is love Gives you the Gift of eternal life and then takes it back,is it a real gift ?You are not saved by works but by grace.Gods love is unconditional,to say if we sin we go to hell,that puts a condition on it and makes God a liar which he is NOT.But we pray for God to help us become what he wants us to be
,do you expect to be a saint the moment you are saved ?When our children sin against us are they no longer our children and not welcome in our homes ?
---russe9356 on 11/20/05

Hebrews 6 tells us that if we get saved and if it were possible to lose that salvation then it is impossible to regain it. So if you can loose it you can't get it back. However, John 10 tells us that once we have it we are placed in to the had of God and no man can stantch us out and Romans 8 tells us that no other created thing can seperate us from the love of God. I believe that the Bible teaches the security of the believer. Jesus is the author and the finisher of our faith.
---Ronnie on 11/19/05

Mima-(He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him should not die but have everlasting life." ) Notice it says SHOULD NOT, not WILL NOT!!!!
---ruben on 11/12/05

If we can lose our salvation then GOD did not give us eternal life. (JOHN 3-16) I do not believe GOD lied do you?--mima 11/12/2005
---mima on 11/12/05

My answer is also a question - are you willing to find out by risking it?
---Jannette_Chapman on 11/11/05

Let me answer your question with a question of my own. Do you doubt God? To even consider if you can lose your salvation you're denying God's sovereignty, His honesty, and Jesus's crucifiction. Do you believe John 3:16 (the most basic of verses)? "For God so loved the world He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him should not die but have everlasting life." Eeverlasting=eternal or forever and always. Believing salvation is temporary is questioning God's power and integrity.
---Heather on 11/2/05

2. In every answer I have given I stand on what God can do and will do and not on what man can do and will do. After all He is the ruler of heaven and earth and we don't have the understanding as to what it takes to run a world correctly. Our faith is in Him and what He promises to all of us. You are a great Christian brother and never let anyone tell you any different. Your faith shows just in answering many questions and I have read most of them. Blessings to you Alan.
---Lupe2618 on 10/30/05

Brother Alan, I am also sorry for your lose. My wife was 52 when she died. I understand what you mean when others say you did not have enough faith. I came to understand God much better when she died. That is why the faith healers are wrong in many ways. God does heal but His will is done and not ours. Can you just imagine how many people have prayed for their love ones to not die and have? We are all destine to die. All in God timing. That is why I speak on behalf of God all the time.
---Lupe2618 on 10/30/05

Craig # 2 My comment about my wife's death was not a complaint ... it was just a statement of fact.
My point is that because God CAN do something does not mean that He will do it.
I had prevously said God could have destroyed the world yesterday, and chose not to. The comment about my wife was making the same point.
---alan8869_of_UK on 10/28/05

Craig # 3 Now back to the issue of the blog. The point I was trying to make was that God is controlled by nothing. I was responding to a post that indicated that God HAD to do something. Not so ... He does not "have to" do anything. He can do whatever He wants. HE decided the blood sacrifice was needed. So He COULD have (but did not) decided to pardon us without it.
---alan8869_of_UK on 10/28/05

Craig # 1
Iam so sorry your wife died so early. My wife was 56.
I will answer first about my wife's death ... no I am not angry.
But I am still hurt and maybe guilty by those Christians who told me that she died because I (& she ) had insufficient faith that God would heal her if we prayed in faith.
But my prayers always ended "nevertheless, Lord, thy will, not mine" Was it my fault then that she died?
I am looked at askance by some, as being not a true faith-filled Christian
---alan8869_of_UK on 10/28/05

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Alan of UK, if it was not necessary for Jesus to die for our sins, if a perfect blood sacrifice wasn't needed then animals would have been acceptable to reconcile man to God, and Jesus' dying on the cross for us would have been in vain. I do need to ask you one thing though. Do you blame God for your wife's death? Is that something your'e angry about and have not been able to come to grips with? I too lost my spouse of a fatal heart attack. She was 43.
---craig on 10/28/05

yes, hell is continually being filled with people who have left their first love for sin, and never returned back to the Lord.
---Eloy on 10/28/05

I just have to say "Lupe you are exactly right". GOD IS SOVRIEGN. He is the ruler of the winds and the waves and he is the ruler of our lives. For all of you others out there do not try to put your selves above God. His grace is more than enough. You are not bigger or stronger than God. Read 1st John. It says that those who went out from us were never one of us.
---Kaleo on 10/27/05

Clark ... the point I was trying inadequately to make was that although God can do anything, He decides sometimes not to.
He chose not to destroy my late wife's cancer.
I'm not sure I go along with your "He had to choose a perfect blood sacrifice" God did NOT have to do that ... that would have made something else more powerful than Him
---alan8869_of_UK on 10/27/05

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Alan of UK, I don't believe its as simple as God CHOOSING not to pardon the entire world. There's so much that goes on in the spiritual realm which we are not privy to and must be content to wait till we get to heaven to learn the answers "why". What we do know is He had to choose a perfect blood sacrifice in order to redeem mankind and reconcile us to Himself. God clearly doesn't want robots and one way to demonstrate our love for Him is to choose His Son to be our Lord and Savior.
---clark on 10/27/05

I remember how my heart changed with I was saved, I also remember backsliding and knowing God still loved me. I never felt alone, but knew I was not pleasing God. I knew He loved me and forgived me for my backsliding and I'm afraid if I had continued on that path of destruction, that maybe I wasn't really saved afterall and never had salvation in the first place. I ran back to my God. My God is an awesome God!
---Nellah on 10/24/05

2. who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord." Thank you for your correction.
---Lupe2618 on 10/24/05

Brother Alan, i did answer your email, thanks so much for it. I will say you are right in what you said about "able." Thank you for correcting me. "Able" does not mean He will. That is so true. I guess that scripture did nothing but make things more complicated. How about Ephesians 1:5,13,14? Or Colossians 3:3,4, or Hebrews 9:12,15, and last 1 Corinthians 1:7-9, "So that you are not lacking in any spiritual gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ;
---Lupe2618 on 10/24/05

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Mike, God cannot go against His nature, that is why all your points. In His character, nature and attributes He does not compromise one for the other. It never happens.
---Lupe2618 on 10/24/05

There are several things that God is not able to do, believe it or not.
God can't lie - it is not His nature.
God can't live with sin - An unwashed sinner would die instantly in His presence.
God can't deceive - Truth is revealed by God, not concealed.
---mike on 10/24/05

Lupe ... please read my posts carefully. Where have I said that God is not able?

I have NOT said God is not able,

I have said 4 times that He is able. But the fact that He is able to do something, does not mean that He will necessarily do it.

God could if he wanted, pardon the whole world without us repenting, but he chooses not to.
---alan8869_of_UK on 10/24/05

2. The discussions we have are great for everyone. I thank you for I know the Lord keeps you in His word everyday. The more people talk about God the more we learn about Him. It is but a pleasure to answer and talk to others everyday. I enjoy what I do and I know you do too. Everyone here wakes up to see what others write. And the object of our lives is God. God is good everyday of our lives.
---Lupe2618 on 10/24/05

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Alan, to your answer, you say, God is not always able, I would like to know what God is not able to do? I would think that our faith holds on to God been Omnipotent. That He nevers stops been Omnipotent. He doesn't lower His standards so that we can make a choice or not. He is, and always be the same. His nature, character, and attributes never change. He is God after all. Not condition by time or anything outside Himself. Alan, I love answering questions.
---Lupe2618 on 10/24/05

"If by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, because those who are led by the Spirit are sons of God. For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by Him we cry, "Abba, Father." The Spirit Himself testfies with our spirit that we are God's children."
---Lupe2618 on 10/24/05

Once saved, always saved. Your name gets written in the Lamb's book of life. Those who believe in getting saved over and over, especially after sinning are sadly misguided. That view is not scriptural.
---clark on 10/24/05

2. He promises He won't lt go. If you are born of the flesh you are flesh, If you believe, you have a spiritual birth. When you are born of the Spirit, you are the promise child. Promises is what makes us different then the world. One brother says we stand on the edge of a cliff, that is how much faith he has. I believe a believer lives in the hands of the Lord. He does not live by chance but by the will of God. The believer lives by faith in Christ, and who He is and what He promises.
---Lupe2618 on 10/23/05

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Brother Alan, I am glad we are talking on line again. I am also glad that God is true to His word and promises He will not let go. Who do you think would be stronger? You are God? You might want to let go and think you have let go but He promised He would not, and I believe His word is more powerful then anything you do. The question to the person is, do they believe in the Lord? That is the difference brother Alan. To anyone because the condition is to believe. If you are born again, a spiritual birth,
---Lupe2618 on 10/23/05

Salvation is like a person who is hanging on the side of a cliff face Relying on Jesus to save them.If a person is to cling to Jesus like that person on the cliff face he/she will stay SAVED, once they leave the sanctity of being born again,or that cliff face and LET GO or give it away... how can they get Jesus to die for their sins again?
Jesus WON'T stay where He isn't welcome..He is a GENTLEMAN. Be ye Holy and Faithful as I am HOLY and Faithful, sayth the Lord.
regards Ron7949
---Ron on 10/23/05

a servant, amen! The concumation of a marriage comparison is unusual. LOL!
---Ulrika on 10/22/05

Remember Willy Wonka's "Everlasting Gobstoppers"? They are jawbreakers that last forever - Thus the term, "everlasting." If I give you one and you throw it away, it does not cease to be everlasting. "Everlasting" modifies "life", not some other word defining how long it will be possessed.
---Darrin on 10/22/05

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Ro 11:29 gifts . . . of God are without repentance.
Eph 2:8 ye saved through faith . . . it is the gift of God:

God does not retrieve gifts. Salvation is a gift.

Eph 1:13 . . . ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit . . .
14 . . . the earnest of our inheritance until [our] redemption . . .

God "seals" His Chosen by giving them His Spirit, as the down payment evidence(earnest) of His purchase of Saved Believers: similar to consumating a marriage.
---a_servant on 10/22/05

No, not according to scripture. Those who believe in Jesus Christ are given eternal, everlasting life. John 3:15,16,36 John 5:24 John 6:47 Acts 15:11 Romans 6:23 Romans 10:9-13 Titus 1:2 Titus 3:1-8 "They which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works". The good works are not to keep our salvation, but because we believe in God. 7 That being justified by his grace, we schould be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 1John 2:25 1John 5:10-13
---Ulrika on 10/22/05

I did not read anything anywhere, Lupe, except that you seem to think "being able" means "will"
It ain't always so! God was able to destroy me yesterday ... He did not.
God is able to present the total backsliding betrayer faultless, but being able does not mean that He will.
Maybe He will, but I was just saying that the passage does not prove it.
---alan8869_of_UK on 10/22/05

Lupe you say to me "What I mean is, that God is able, and you say He is not"
But I never said he is isn't able. Where did yuo think I said that?
What I said was that being able to do something does not necessarily mean that one will do something.
God has "been able" to destroy the world ... but He has not done so.
---alan8869_of_UK on 10/22/05

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Blessings from Stockton Ca. Hope all is well with you and yours,
---Lupe2618 on 10/22/05

3. That Alan is my point. God gives us the faith to believe through grace, and we say "I don't believe that. So we add, Only if I want it. That to me is adding to what we think we understand. But it is not what is in there.
---Lupe2618 on 10/22/05

2. Because of what you think should not add to Scripture. If we did add, then all the Scriptures would be conditioned to what we add. If God says, "I chose you, you did not choose me" If we don't believe that, do we add a condition again to make it say what we think it should say? You mention its my logic, but its God's Word without me adding anything to it. If God says, "you have eternal life" do we add, only if I want it?
---Lupe2618 on 10/22/05

Hello brother Alan. I read what you put down, and would like to know where you read that? What I mean is, that God is able, and you say He is not, then it would seem that He is not able to under the condition you speak of. But no where does the verses say that. He would have said it different. Like, "If you don't sin anymore I am able to" But it does not say that and more is been added to the verse.
---Lupe2618 on 10/22/05

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The scripture is equally replete with passages that indicate conditional salvation (for the want of a better term.) There are lots of warnings and "if" statements.
---Bruce5656 on 10/22/05

Lupe ... following your logic, He would be able to present us faultless even if we never repented!
I think it means he is able to do that, even if our behaviour is such that we are not faultless. He is able to overcome our faults before God.
Does not mean He has to. If we are saved and themn totally reject Him, being able to presnt us faultless does not mean He will.
I don't know about the OSAS theory, but I do not think this passage necessarlyy supports it.
---alan8869_of_UK on 10/22/05

I have asked many questions to others that don't believe this verses to be true, or they believe it means something else. I have not heard from anyone. If God Himself tells us, and we read it, why doesn't He (God) mean that? I will just put one, Jude 24, "God is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault." If He says He is able, why isn't He able?
---Lupe2618 on 10/22/05

4. to completion" (Philippians 1:6). Finally, Scripture is replete with passages that testify to the security of the believer. 1 Cor. 1:8 promises that Christ will "keep you strong to the end" and Jude 24 guarantees that God "Is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault." And Eph. provides the surety that "You were marked in Him with a seal, the promised inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's Possession"
---Lupe2618 on 10/21/05

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3. Furthermore, we would do well to remember that everlastin life means just that-life everlasting. This life does not begin when we die but when we embrace the Savior who died in our place. As our physical birth can never be undone, so too our spiritual birth can never be undone. Christ said "Ye must be born again" (John 3:7), not "ye must be born again and again." In Phil. Paul praises God for the confidence that, "He who began a good work in you will carry it on
---Lupe2618 on 10/21/05

2. First, outward appearances can be deceiving. Consider Judas. For three years, he was part of Christi's inner circle. From all outward appearances, he was a true follower of Christ. yet, Jesus characterized Judas as "a devil" (John 6:70). The book of Hebrews warns us that there were Jews who, like Judas, tasted God's goodness and yet turned from His grace. They acknowledged Christ with their lips, but their apostasy proved that their faith was not real.
---Lupe2618 on 10/21/05

Natasha, Sincere Christians are sharply divided on this question. Some say Chrisians can lose their salvation and subsequently must be born again and again if they fall away. Others contend that true believers cannot lose their salvation through sin, but they can apostatize or walk away from their salvation. Still others hold that salvation begins at the moment of conversion (not death) and continues for all eternity-I hold this view for several reasons.
---Lupe2618 on 10/21/05

My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
(John 10:29)
---mike on 10/20/05

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NO YOU CAN NOT LOSE YOUR SALVATION. Once saved by the Grace will remain saved by the Grace.
---Rob on 10/20/05

NO YOU CAN NOT LOSE YOUR SALVATION. Once saved by the Grace will remain saved by the Grace.
---Rob on 10/20/05

4. even the most unworthy servant. How will I love Him enough or serve Him worthily? I would gadly make His name "great unto the ends of the earth" (Mic. 5"4). Yet what can my feebleness do for Him? Great Shepherd, add to Your mercies one other; a heart to love You more truly, as I should. For I am not deserving of anything. The Good Shepherd of Scripture, mentiong who He is and what He will do for us believers. Do you believe? That is all it takes. Faith in His promise. Nothing else.
---Lupe2618 on 10/19/05

3. the timid and feeble, and the fearful and fainting here below. How gently He gathered me-to Himself, to His truth, to His blood, to His love, to His church! With great grace, He compelled me to come to Himself. Since my conversion, He has frequently restored me from my wanderings, and again embraced me within the circle of His everlasting arms. Best of all, He does all this Himself, personally. He does not delegate the task of love, but graciously takes it upon Himself to rescue and preserve
---Lupe2618 on 10/19/05

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2. He finds weak minds ready to faint and die, and He comforts them and renews their strength. He gathers all the little ones, for it is not the will of our heavenly Father that any of them should perish. What an awesome eye He must have to see them all, what a tender heart to care for them all, what a far-reaching and powerful arm to gather them all. During His lifetime on earth, He was a great gatherer of the weak. Now that He dwells in heaven, His loving heart yearns toward the meek and contrite,
---Lupe2618 on 10/19/05

Our Good Shepherd has a variety of sheep in His flock. Some are strong in the Lord, while others are weak in faith. However, He cares for all His sheep impartially. The weakest lamb is as dear to Him as the most advanced of the flock. Lambs tend to lag behind, wander, and grow weary. Yet the Shepherd protects them from the dangers of these tendencies with His arm of Power. He finds newborn souls, like young lambs, ready to perish, and He nourishes them until they are strong.
---Lupe2618 on 10/19/05

Is the blood of Jesus not powerful enough to keep those who have accepted him by faith as their savior? Read john 10:28 When you were rebellious to your parents did they tell you were not their child anymore? Is romans 10:9-13 not true anymore?Is John 3:16 true? 1st. John 5:13? Working out your own salvation is working out what God puts in you. Rayma8595 N.C.
---Raymond on 10/17/05

Oh brother Pierr, Two things, first glad to see you come on line, second I wanted to talk to you about what we talked about. Revelations. I am just beginning a good study on it so I can talk about it too. You guys were great in your discussions on another blog. I read everything you guys put down. Thanks, Love you brother,
---Lupe2618 on 10/17/05

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2. in other words blind to God. doing the desires of the evil one. Slave to sin. How in the world does he wake up first in order to talk and see? And if he stays dead to the things of God, which he is when lost, how can he have faith if he is dead and cannot speak to tell Christ he is excercising his free will and choosing Him? Can you start with the faith first and take me through it? I would learn a lot. Maybe Eloy can take me through it. Thanks
---Lupe2618 on 10/17/05

Hello brother Pierr, I was wondering when I would see you. Welcome to our conversation. Then tell me brother Pierr, where do you get the faith to believe? Are you saying you have it already and always did? Maybe I have it wrong I would like to learn. Eloy says he is there already. So I guess he can answer, he speaks more about free will then anyone. Lets see, you are seperated from God with enmity towards Him. Dead Spiritually. No understanding to the things of God.
---Lupe2618 on 10/17/05

That is right brother Ruben, it will be worse for them. Those that knew but didn't believe. Those that heard the word and didn't trust. Those that followed false religions, making God in the image of their minds. Sure, it will be worse for them. For what is really free will? if it isn't pride in themselves. Taking the glory that belongs to our Lord. Having something to boast about. Lets see, it was pride that took Satan down. You are so right. Everything in His creation is for His glory, and not for us.
---Lupe2618 on 10/17/05

2 Peter 2:19-20 But they themselves are slaves of corruption for whatever overcomes a man, to that he is enslaved. For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. FOR IT WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER FOR THEM NEVER TO HAVE KNOWN THE WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS THAN AFTER KNOWING IT TO TURN BACK FROM THE HOLY COMMANDMENT DELIVERED TO THEM.
---ruben on 10/17/05

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Yes you can lose your salvation IF you decide not to continue in Him or are lukewarm. The bible says to work out your salvation with fear and trembling. Dan Corner has a good site on this subject. I don't know why Christians think that seals cannot be broken? They CAN be.
---Aly on 10/17/05

Just my std. answer with which Lupe my friend will continue to disgaree and that's ok!
God is suprime but NOT dictatorial.
Just as we use our free will to come to the father, we can use our free will to leave the father and just as in the story of the prodical son, he won't hold us back!
He wishes that we would seek Him put He will never force us to do anything against our will.
---Pierre on 10/17/05

8. that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness , which is from the law," here Paul make a point that he hasn't gain Christ yet. In verse 12, "Not that I have already attained , or am already "perfect", but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me." Paul has not been glorified yet, later he says, "he presses toward the goal for the Prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus."
---Lupe2618 on 10/17/05

7. We are sustain because we are not there yet. If you look at Philippians, Paul explains it this way, 2:13, "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure." Then in 3:7 "But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish,
---Lupe2618 on 10/17/05

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6. yet many attempt. Sure we are called to be obedient, that is why we have Scripture where God speaks to us believers. He gives us commands and rules, that is How He sustains us by His Word. In the end those that didn't follow Him, will be exposed and will show where their heart was really at, and whether their repentance was true or not. Eternal life, is Christ. He says He is the true eternal life, and I believe it.
---Lupe2618 on 10/17/05

5. Is God true to His word and sustains us? Is He learning as He goes because He doesn't know what we will do? Eloy mentioned that we are not robots, then I think God is the robot. We have become the Potter and He is the clay. We have form Him as to what we think He should be. And one thing I will not do is to create God in my image. We cannot design God to be what we think He should be, we cannot design God to act how we think He should act.
---Lupe2618 on 10/17/05

4. God tells us that He has sealed us for salvation by the Holy Spirit and we turn around and can break that seal of God. That to me sounds like man is sovereign. Many here even think that God's sovereignty is demonic, I heard that before, Now you tell me what doesn't make sense? Is God the sovereign Lord of heaven and Earth? Is His outcome going to come true or will it all depend on man with his God given free will that will determine everything?
---Lupe2618 on 10/17/05

3. because it is my faith and not God's so I can do what I want. I can have it or not. When Christ with His own words says, I chose you, you did not choose Me" we say no, I chose you. When you are blind and dead you can make a decision for God from the dead state you are in. Since the Bible tells us that when lost our desires or for the evil one, we say now I decided to desire God, all this while dead spiritually to the things of God.
---Lupe2618 on 10/17/05

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2. When God tells us, He will do all that He pleases, we say, no, only if I let you. When God commands light into darkness, He can only do it when we want it. When Christ takes our place on the Cross for us once forever, we say no, you will have to take it again because I decided to go back and just maybe I will come back. When Christ tells us, "My grace is sufficient for you," we are saying, it is not because it depends on me. Paul tells us that we are saved by grace through faith, we say no,
---Lupe2618 on 10/17/05

Craig, since I have been online I have heard from many about their God given free will. They speak of this will as if it was sovereign. Just think brother if your free will is sovereign, and you are the determinator of not only your salvation but keeping that salvation, then you are in control and not God. What it says is that man has mercy on Christ by choosing Him, and not God having mercy on us. It says that Christ strength will not sustain you, because you have the power to overrule Christ,
---Lupe2618 on 10/17/05

Yes we can loose our salvation, God gave us all free will. Once saved always saved makes no sense. You are saved through the Blood of Jesus BUT, if you choose to backslide and go the worlds way then you have chosen to leave God and to leave your salvation as well.
April, if our soul stay saved even if our flesh sins then why should we bother keeping God's laws? It is our souls as well that can loose faith and stop following God not just our flesh. The soul sins first before the flesh.
---Craig on 10/16/05

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