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Thiefs On The Cross Baptized

Was reading someone's input on baptism saying it was a big part of our salvation ... my question is ... Were the two thieves crucified next to Jesus ever baptized? From this day forth you will be with Me in paradise.

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4. and as you continue to read verse1 on, you will see that the three men that were send by Cornilius came and God had already come to the house they were to go. verse 13, "He told us how he had seen an angel appear in his house and say, "Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter. He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved." As you can see the PIMARY CAUSE of their salvation was God. It was not thier own free will that saved them. God had a plan
---Lupe2618 on 7/22/07


Emcee, have you ever given someone a gift and then, because that person has done something that you didn't approve of, taken the gift back into your own possession? If so, you never really meant it to be a gift. It was never really THEIRS, it was just a loan for as long as the person did what you wanted. You seem to be suggesting that God does that. Is that really what you are saying?
---M.P. on 3/27/06


Well all i can say is the other one who confesssed will be with Jesus, when he comes to take the righteous on his second coming. Well with my understanding of Baptism, none was Baptized it was being saved.
---Megg on 3/27/06


I believe that baptism is a public confession that you have accepted Christ to come into your heart and be the boss of your life. This does not save you. What saves you is believing that God sent his only son to die for your sins so you could have eternal life. He then rose again (this showed that he conquered death for us). Whithout this, our destiny is Hell. Howerver, now we have a choice of accepting God's free gift.
What an awesome God we serve!
---Ryan on 3/26/06


BRUCE:-)The Gift you speak of is given TRUE but you are only allowed to keep it under certain conditionsYou break the law of any one of the10 & you automatrically lose it.Romans 10-10--take the test
---Emcee on 12/5/05




Emcee,

Please give this some thought:

Romans 6:23, "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
Ephesians 2:8, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"

A gift cannot be earned or paid for or it is no longer a gift. It is something that one must take possession of on their own. No one else can do it for them.
---Bruce5656 on 12/3/05


PART TWO:
If I "do" anything to make that gift mine, it is no longer a gift but a reward or a payment. This would include baptism, sacraments, penenance etc.
---Bruce5656 on 12/3/05


Emcee, what changed God's knowledge of something from the OT to the NT? If God knew it in the OT why would it be wrong to state it in this day? You have consistently said there had to be some sort of baptism to be Saved.
Have you changed your mind? You even said the thief on the cross had been baptized by desire so he could have been saved. I know you didn't get that from the OT or the NT.
You said everything has a beginning do you want to debate that issue?
---Elder on 12/3/05


Elder::You are putting words in my mouth This is NOT what I said this is your assumption-Your Deduction- I said that baptism is an initiation to Christianity.1st step: The acceptance & saving comes as a result of your acknowledgement of what Jesus did for us by obeying his Father.2 different things You go to school first then you learn, not the other way around.Forget the OT dont mix apples & oranges Old is old, NT IS NT
---Emcee on 12/2/05


Elder::You are putting words in my mouth This is NOT what I said this is your assumption-Your Deduction- I said that baptism is an initiation to Christianity.1st step: The acceptance & saving comes as a result of your acknowledgement of what Jesus did for us by obeying his Father.2 different things You go to school first then you learn, not the other way around.Forget the OT dont mix apples & oranges Old is old, NT IS NT
---Emcee on 12/2/05




Emcee I didn't turn Matt 28:18-20 down I explained it.
Teach in KJV means make disciples or Christians. Then we baptize them. Then we teach them to observe God's commands.
Was Judas baptized? He did everything else everyone else did but he had not accepted Christ. Do you discount Romans 10:13, for who so ever shall call upon the Name of The Lord shall be saved. Do they call from beneath the water?
To your baby reference; even babies are conceived before there is water.
---Elder on 12/2/05


Emcee if the babe still born had no beginning then why did God tell Jeremiah, "I knew you while you were in your fathers loins?" You are saying the you get baptized to get saved. If that were true then Jesus shed His blood for no good reason. The Bible teaches blood covers sin. You teach that water covers sin.
---Elder on 12/2/05


Elder ::There is no point to this arguement You know as well as I do one starts school in Grade one ,everything has a beginning even Birth then the finished product.You asked for a scripture & when it is presented you turn it down__how do you make disciples without iniation?were you born a full grown man or did you start life as a babe.A still born child is dead before birth had no beginning.John T/ Baptist was the fore runner of christ make straight the ways of the lord who had not yet come.
---Emcee on 12/2/05


Emcee all I am trying to do is to get you to read your own post.
You list Matt 28:18-20 but it doesn't support your views. Did you read, Make Disciples then Baptize them?
You see, Saved first, Baptized next.
If a baby is still born do we practice baptizing for the dead so that one will be in Heaven?
Who Baptized John the Baptizer?
---Elder on 12/2/05


Elder::Thanks for your summation speech being in doubt of Gods words I give you Matt:28-V18-20"All authority in heaven & on earth is given to me,go ye therefore make disciples of all nations BAPTISING them,In the name of The Father& of the son & teaching them to obey every thing that I have COMMANDED you.And remember,Iam with you ALWAYS,to the end of the age"I disregard your taunts, but first we have to learn about christ to sincerely accept him .Babies enter heaven on learners licence.
---Emcee on 12/1/05


Emcee you have done very well explaining your point. The eloquence is perfect the rhetoric is smooth. now back up your support for this misconception with Scripture.
You have not done that. If you cannot do that then I would suggest writing fiction children books, because now we have a baby with a driver's license. Probably issued in the State of Confusion.
---Elder on 12/1/05


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Elder:: I understand your point but baptism is the 1st step that is why they baptise babies who dont have a drivers or learners licenceas per your theory. Accepting God as your savior comes with comprehension& this is the other step.
Alan::The thief had Comphrension of his waywardness & contrition 2 important conditions which constitute baptism of desire which I explained earlier.that is why Jesus accepted him into paradise.
---Emcee on 11/30/05


Emcee, then how come Philip didn't baptize the Eunuch before he allowed him to believe? Philip put belief first.
This belief equals trusting Christ for Salvation.
Being one step away from Heaven and/or Salvation is the same as being thousands of miles away.
Again States issue Driver's a License to people who can Drive not those who want to drive. You must know how to drive before you get your license.
You must be Saved before you get baptized.
---Elder on 11/30/05


Emcee ... the thief was baptised? Where does the bible say that?
---alan8869_of_UK on 11/30/05


Mima::All Good well informed catholics know that Baptism is a one time sacrament.Its an iniation to christ.Salvation is the second part.Without my trying to be trite Its like saying I have a reserved seat in the theatre But I have NO ticket to prove it, your name is not on the seat.!
---Emcee on 11/30/05


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Elder::I am not disputing that truth it is the first step.The original question was about the good thief on the cross who was granted Baptism & salvation in one shot by Jesus. Baptism is a prelude to salvation.Salvation is the ultimate goal of all christians,who seek it.
---Emcee on 11/30/05


After witnessing to and praying with them many Catholics ask should I get baptisted again? I tell them to do what they think GOD wants them to do. Many do get baptisted again later. One person traveled 600 miles just to get me to baptist them, but I know that being baptisted never saved anyone baptism is to follow salvation not to cause salvation.---mima 11/29/2005
---mima on 11/29/05


Emcee do you think Philip told the Eunuch what was required then allowed him to go some other way.
Matt 28 lends more credence to Salvation first baptism next.
V19 Go teach all nations what? Salvation that is what.
V19 Baptize them properly because of Salvation not to get it.
V20 teach the Saved to observe God's Commands.
Now let me ask you, did you get Baptized to get Saved or did you get baptized because you were Saved?
Notice the Eunuch said in Acts 8:37, "I believe."
---Elder on 11/29/05


Elder::You are talking about the law of Moses which was abolished.Read what Jesus said when he commissioned his Disciples Matt28,V18-20-The eunuch was Baptised by Philip as he desired.
---Emcee on 11/29/05


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2. As for me been baptized, I was as a baby but didn't know what it meant so I lived a life without God. When God saved me, I did get baptized as my acknowledgement of my faith in Christ Jesus as Lord and Savior. I have assurance my friend, my hope is in Christ and His promises, not on anything I did or will do, that's why I believe in once saved always saved, it is you I worry about. I believe you have been given enough Scriptures to understand, now its up to you.
---Lupe2618 on 11/29/05


Emcee, I saw your answer in blog, "what is born again" and you never mentioned once about Baptism. I know you know what it takes to be born again and yet on this blog you continue to answer on behalf of Baptism for taking away sin. Why do you continue to answer the way you do here? Is your resistance for arguement? Do you not realize that many read what you put down? Salvation through baptism is another gospel.
---Lupe2618 on 11/29/05


Emcee what original sin did Jesus' baptism get rid of?
Your argument is in Acts 15. Circumcision was the issue there. Read the word circumcised as baptized ect and you will see the emptiness of any act of our own.
V7 Peter said hear the Word and believe.
V11 Belief in Jesus saves, no baptism here.
In Acts 8 the Eunuch asked Philip what stopped him from being baptized and Philip said believe first, Acts 8:26-38.
---Elder on 11/29/05


Elder Alan Lupe::I think we are talking at cross purposes.First Baptism removes the stain Original sin without which you cannot get to heaven- no connection with Salvation.Salvation comes from acknowledging Jesus as our saviour & following his teachings & walking the walk by taking up our cross & following him.Elder you are right but Jesus was following in the tradition as a man But he was also GOD.setting an example so to speak.
Lupe,if not, Get baptised its double insurance.Trust in Jesus.
---Emcee on 11/28/05


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2. It is about hope. Hope in what Christ wants to give you. Many have answered you and given you many explanations and you continue to ask over and over the same questions, resisting ever so much. I love you brother, and I mean it. We don't know when our name will be called. It could be tonight or tomorrow. May God's Spirit come to you at night and bring you hope in Christ. Take care my friend
---Lupe2618 on 11/28/05


Emcee I want so much to help Catholics but I know I can only do so much. In your church there is many that don't even know what born again is. I mean many, and they don't want to find out because of pride. How sad it is to know people try to help but we can only bring the truth. Believing and repenting has to come from each one. It is not about what I believe but what Scripture tells us. I know many have made a commitment, but so many haven't. It hurts to know we try but God's Word falls on deaf ears.
---Lupe2618 on 11/28/05


Emcee I was listening through the door so I will answer for Lupe. First there was no unrighteousness in Jesus and no sin to be "washed away" as some think that Baptism does.
John was preaching Repentance not Baptism.
Jesus was identifying with Johns message stressing the thought and fact that to be obedient means to be baptized and identify with the message of repentance and the work of faith in God alone. Anything more or less makes Jesus less than He is.
---Elder on 11/28/05


Emcee ... I think we are to be baptised as an outward sign of our acceptance of Jesus. Note Jesus says the disciples were to baptised all believers. The belief and therefore salvation came before the baptism.
---alan8869_of_UKbe_ba on 11/28/05


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Lupe:: with all your stress on salvation can you tell me why DID Jesus accept Baptism in the Jordan? & why did he Exhort His Diciples To Baptise all believers? which Peter did by the thousands.Simple questions simple answers please.He was GOD.
---Emcee on 11/28/05


2. This act is done by the believer after the Holy Spirit has quicken our hearts and brought us back to life, from the dead person we were before. We are able to respond to the Lord because we are not blinded anymore and conviction has come into our hearts. The primary source of this action is God. Water does not get you in, God does.
---Lupe2618 on 11/28/05


Emcee, Baptism is your doing, salvation is God saving you. Big,Big difference. Born of the flesh or born of God. If you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; for with the heart man believes resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in Salvation." Romans 10:9-10). The sprinkling of water does not wash away what is in your heart for 80years. It takes an act of God.
---Lupe2618 on 11/28/05


Lupe::Brother-why do you think baptism is not necessary under normal circumstances?as against being born again & OSAS.Please keep it to 85wrds
---Emcee on 11/27/05


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Emcee, I didn't expect for you to understand it at all. In your life time you have understood your salvation the way you do. You make the choice, and not God. I kind of knew you would answer in that way. Nothing I say can change you, but it can help others. It is nice to answer you and the questions are still there not only for you but for everyone that needs to know and make sure of their salvation. Or we saved by grace along or of the will of man? in your case, to be baptized. That is the question.
---Lupe2618 on 11/27/05


Shawn::Are you trying to Contest Jesus' action on the cross By quoting scripture JESUS IS GOD.The Thief was granted salvation.question of Baptism did not arise,as contrition sought by the thief was acknowledged & granted Instantantly.
---Emcee on 11/26/05


Lupe::YR 8 paras, I could not understand, more like a tornado.But in answer to your question was I born again,not in the way that you say but I was born to believe& I realised from a very early age That my salvation Was dependant on Jesus who came to this earth to show us the way to heaven.While yet in school I studied his book & way of life & that has been incorporated in my life family.I was never converted As I was baptised a Catholic, it became my staff.this belief is reiterated in my answers
---Emcee on 11/26/05


Elder::You know when God lets go-when you sin-No man born again In accepting remains in Grace JN1,V10.We are all called to strive for perfection.The reason I say Baptism is essential& that is where you disagree,it because it is the first step.Peace be with You.
---Emcee on 11/26/05


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First of all the thief on the cross did not have the testamony of baptizm.In Acts2:38 Peter shows us a direct relation of baptizm and repentance and the recieving of the Holy Spirit.This may very well be the testamony that john decribes in 1 John5:6-8.Therefor baptism is a testamony of the death and resurrection of Christ(Romans6:3-4)It is not part of our salvation but of our profession of Christ.
---Shawn on 11/23/05


8. I have answered the best way I know how. If there is one person I see that is born of the promise and shows it is Eloy, I might not agree with everything he believes but he stands firm in his faith. He knows what is born of the Spirit and the promise. The questions are for you. Where do you stand? Is your salvation of your own free will and desires, or is it of God? the difference might seem small to the careless but they mean so much. Is it by the Spirit or of the flesh? Happy Thanksgiven Day.
---Lupe2618 on 11/23/05


7. Was it of the will of man or of God? Much will depend upon your answer to those questions. As a Catholic you get baptized on your own free will, and expect to be saved. It is out of your own desire. Do you really think that it will get you into heaven? You will be just like Ishmael. Don't you want to be out of the promise? My hope lies only in the promise of God. He has set forth that promise in the person of His Son, Jesus to every sinner that believes in Him.
---Lupe2618 on 11/23/05


6. Have you not read, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh" before long the flesh will perish, and from it you will reap corruption. Only "that which is born of the Spirit is spirit". Is the life that is within you the result of the fermentation of your own natural desires? or is it a new element, infused, imparted, implanted from above? Is your spiritual life a heavenly creation? Have you been created anew in Christ Jesus? Was your new birth natural or supernatural?
---Lupe2618 on 11/23/05


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5. Did it come from God in consequence of His eternal purpose and promise, or did it come out of yourself? Was it your old nature trying to do better, and working itself up to its best form? Is so, you are Ishmael. Or was it that you, being spiritually dead and having no strength whatsoever to rise out of your lost estate, were visited by the Spirit of God? Did God put forth His divine energy and cause life from heaven to enter in to you? Then you are Isaac.
---Lupe2618 on 11/23/05


4. from him who is only so by profession. The promise lies at the bottom of the distinction, and the power which goes to accomplish the promise creates and maintains the difference. The promise which is our inheritance is also our test and touchstone. Let me ask a few questions: How were you converted? Was it by yourself, by the persuasion of men, by carnal excitment, or was it by the operation of the Spirit of God? And if you profess to have been born again, where did that new birth come from?
---Lupe2618 on 11/23/05


3. Abraham's two sons are declared by Paul to be the types of two races of men who are much alike and yet widely different. They are unlike in their origin. Ishmael, the child of Hagar was the offspring of Abraham upon ordinary conditions. He was born after the flesh. Isaac, the son of Sarah, was not born to the strength of nature. He was given to his parents by the Lord, and was born according to the promise through faith. This is a grave distinction, and it marks off the true child of God
---Lupe2618 on 11/23/05


2. Let me give an example: Abraham had two sons, Ishmael and Isaac, yet, one of them inherited the covenant blessing, and the other was simply a prosperous man of the world. They were born in the same society, yet Ishamael was a stranger to the covenant. And Isaac was heir of the promise. A more remarkable instance than this happened a little afterwards. Esau and Jacob were both born to the same mother, yet it is written, "Jacob have I loved, and Esau I have hated."
---Lupe2618 on 11/23/05


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Brother Emcee, I have the assurance of Christ for my salvation. I hang on to His promise. I know I am not perfect. While alive I will always sin. All come short of the glory of God. We need to be born of the Spirit. by God. Christ is our connection to God. We have salvation but only because of the grace of God not by anything I can or have done are will do. You never get it because you are Catholic and your understanding of Christ is so much different.
---Lupe2618 on 11/23/05


Emcee since I am shedding light as you say via Southern...please show me where God lets go from Scripture.
He is not holding the ladder, He is holding me as I climb and fall back.
Baptismal Waters are reserved for those Born Again not those wanting to be Born Again.
Drivers Licenses are given to those who can drive not those learning.
They get the Learners Permit.
---Elder on 11/23/05


Hello Lupe::So you are still up to your belief of BA.NO Baptism!!would you cross that gate if your papers are not in order? you still have original sin to dispense with? BUT you have grace!BUT you require BOTH.so what happens you cant stand there other people are in line waiting to be processed!!!!No purgatory no heaven what now how about LIMBO no not the dance!!!Friend get the insurance while you can & you will not be surprised or DISAPPOINTED.
---Emcee on 11/22/05


Elder ::That what you bellowed southern talk is a bray.not your style but to elucidate God lets go when you commit sin.God is holding the ladder you are the one climbing!!!ha ha ha
---Emcee on 11/22/05


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Emcee, Yeeha ha ha (Southern talk)
I thought it was God that did the holding not the person. At what point does God let go?
Is it belief and trust first or ritual and baptism?
---Elder on 11/22/05


Emcee, it is not end to the story. You have to be born again. And this salvation is by grace. Nothing you do can earn you a way in His Kingdom. You can take many showers and get in the river many times and it will not bring you salvation. If you did anything then you take the glory that belongs only to Him and not you. Catholics, J.W., Islam, and many more try to earn their way in. All come short of the glory of God.
---Lupe2618a on 11/21/05


There are some Christian churches that do not baptise at all. I think that the Salvation Army is one of them. I doubt that anyone would say that every member of the Salvation Army will go to hell because they were not baptised.
---M.A. on 11/20/05


Caroa:: you can agree its your choice & IMHP living Common law is also a symbol with or without the ring lost or notIT IS WRONG.NO baptism under normal circumstances NO HEAVEN.NO entry-you have the stain of original sin if NOT baptised.-period end of story.
---/Emcee on 11/19/05


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Elder:: Zippity dodha heres what i say.The sign of inward grace causes the grace of regeneration that christ won for us by his death & confers on us the virtues of faith hope & charity amongst the gifts of grace of peace & joy of the HS. It removes all penalties eternal & temporal attached to actual & original sin.But this is just the 1st rung of the heavenly Ladder.There is more,you have to be able to hold on tight to that grace that is part of your insurance.
---Emcee on 11/19/05


"Special strokes for special folks" Emcee? God says He is not a respector of persons...no special treatment.
---caroa6864 on 11/19/05


Rah, Rah, Sis Boom Bah, maybe now we are getting some whear.
Emcee you said, "Baptism is an outward sign of inward grace."
EXACTLY what does that mean?
What does inward Grace do?
---Elder on 11/19/05


Eph.4:3-5 "Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.There is one body and one Spirit,just as you were called to one hope when you were called;one Lord,one faith,one baptism..." There is only one baptism that matters- the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
---Cam on 11/19/05


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No Emcee, God does not renege. So millions who have accepted Christ but not undergone the physical ceremony of baptism go to heaven. I'm not sure that the baptism of desire is needed, either, becasue many of those of whom I talk do not see the need to be baptised by man's hand, and are still well and truly saved.
---alan8869_of_UK on 11/19/05


I do agree with Bro. Lupe. Bro. Emcee may I give an illustration? A couple marries, but cannot afford a wedding ring. Not having the ring...does this mean they're not married? Or if they have a ring and it's lost, are they unmarried? Baptism is a symbol. Just as the wedding band symbolizes one is married, baptism is a symbol that one has accepted the Lord Jesus as their Savior and is ready to follow His commands. If one is baptized and hasn't accepted Christ...they are just WET.
---Caroa6864 on 11/19/05


Allan::My friend Gods words "this day thou shalt be with me in paradise"Does God reneg?
Baptism of desire takes him to paradise.Plus Gods assurance-like a special pass.Special strokes for different folks.
---Emcee on 11/19/05


So, Emcee, what about that thief? Not baptised, then repented with faith, but no opportunity for baptism.
Going to heaven or not?
---alan8869_of_UK on 11/19/05


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Brother Emcee, I am glad that you are glad. I wish I could make a dent in your pride but as I said before I cannot change anyone. Only God can bring light to someone. I do enjoy your answers and as always. I know you mean well and are sincere about your answers but meaning well and sincerity never saved anyone. God's grace does. If Grace is done with your help then it is no longer grace. You have missed what grace really means.
---Lupe2618 on 11/19/05


Elder::BRAVO! BRAVO!!we get older by the second. but do we get wiser?Baptism is an outward sign of inward grace---Did Jesus need Baptism yet he was-just to fulfill the law.He also said unless you are baptised you will NOT enter the kingdom-- with or witout grace. I believe Baptism is the first Rung of the Heavenly Ladder.Have faith Peace BRO.
---Emcee on 11/18/05


Hooray!! Hooray!!
My favorite clothes are going to Heaven (according to Emcee) cause my wife baptizes them every week in the washer.
Emcee the water may clean the outside of man but he needs the inside clean and only faith in Christ can do that not baptism. What disturbs me is if you believe what you say and trust Baptism for Salvation then Baptism is all you have. Think about it.
---Elder on 11/18/05


Lupe ::Your mirth fills me with laughter Ha ha!Ezekiel36:25-26& MatCh 28:V19-20--Jn1;V12Baptism is necesary for entrance to heaven because it removes original & all sin following acceptance.__stick with the 85 limit it is easier on the mods
---Emcee on 11/17/05


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Brother Emcee, can you give me Scriptures where it says what you just quoted? I know you believe that but where does it say that in Scripture that baptism is what you said it is? Thank you for your answer and mine was only one Para. this time but don't be surprise to get many more later.
---Lupe2618 on 11/17/05


Lupe::Thanks for 3 paras.Baptism is necessary because it takes away original sin. Baptism is a form of repentance & an initiation to Christianity because we are forgiven our sins,in recognition because we declare that we were not aware But realistion has made us aware.this is a one time thing not repeated.It is like a licence to admit you to heaven.
---Emcee on 11/17/05


3. The man that baptized me as a child was murdered by his wife while asleep for been unfaithful to his wife. If my salvation depended on him, he sure messed up and left me out on the cold. But because of God's grace and mercy, He saved me. I did get baptized again but because I wanted the church to know of my commitment, and my relationship with Christ. I don't think the theif while on the cross desired to be baptized. He believed in the Lord and was saved. "He believed".
---Lupe2618 on 11/17/05


2. and the new coming out. But mainly, it is our obedience to Christ. Now many never get a chance to get baptized for many reasons. Some might be dying and others cannot get inside the water for a reason, others for many other reasons. In the Catholic church, baptism is their salvation. I have been there many times and seen it. A padrino, or God father, has the responsibility to see to it the child becomes a good christian but what happens is they many times don't ever hear of the child for many reasons.
---Lupe2618 on 11/17/05


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Emcee, baptism of desire, I had never heard of it put that way. I understood your answer very well. When someone is born again, he will desire to get baptized. I don't believe anyone that is born again will refuse. But yet, if he refused, it would not mean he is not saved. For baptism does not save, but is commanded of us just as spreading the Word of God. Baptism is is an example of many things. One, it shows to others our commitment, Spiritually it signify's that the old person dies while going in
---Lupe2618 on 11/17/05


Lupe:: Your 5 para explaination has nothing to do with the The baptism of the 2 thieves Baptism which was the question.The explaination proffered is out of place.My reply to you was about baptism of Desire on which you requested information.
---Emcee on 11/16/05


5.God had worked through Cornilius, the three messangers, and also the house in which was going to be saved. The Holy Spirit came on them just as He had come on Peter earlier. verse 16 Peter remembers what the Lord had said. "John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit." This was the New Ministry of the Holy Spirit in a believers life. I beleive people that read the whole context as to what was happening refuse to see the whole picture. It's there as plain as can be.
---Lupe2618 on 11/16/05


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