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Ten Commandments Against Us

Were the ten commandments against us? Are the ten commandments the ordinance (that was against us) that was nailed to cross with JESUS thereby taking it(the ten commandments) out of the way? See COLOSSIANS 2-14

Moderator - Mima please don't add your name and date at the end of a question because we have to remove it each time. Thanks!

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Lee said "what counted spiritually was the circumcision of the heart but anyone becoming Jewish had to submit to the physical act."

CORRECTION: Both counted and were REQUIRED by God and by faith (physical-Gen 17:14 AND spiritual circumcision-Dt 10:16, 30:6, Jer 4:4, Ro 2:29), but while the former was temporal-Gal 5:6, the latter is continuous.

Ro 2:28-For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly, neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh
---Geoff on 3/30/08


Geoff - *you claim God changed His mind regarding the Gentiles. He did NOT-Ex 12:48-49, etc

Again your interpretation ignores the context! What Exodus 12:48 is referring to is the Gentile who would become a Jew and join himself to the nation of Israel.

As to circumcision,it was always a physical act performed by the rabbi with his flint knive.

True what counted spiritually was the circumcision of the heart but anyone becoming Jewish had to submit to the physical act.
---Lee on 3/26/08


Lee, you claim God "changed His mind regarding the Gentiles." He did NOT-Ex 12:48-49, etc. As I said, circumcision was always a matter of the heart-Dt 10:16, 30:6, Jer 4:4, Ro 2:29. Physical circumcision wasn't a change of mind on God's part, but a shadow of the spotless Lamb of God coming to remove sin-Ro 3:1-2, Lev 12:3, Gen 17:12...

Allow me to speculate (you do it all the time), there seems to be a correlation between the 8th day circumcision and Jesus' resurrection
---Geoff on 3/26/08


Geoff - God's laws do not change?

How then did he first require physical circumcision of those of the Abrahamic covenant but then changed His mind regarding the Gentiles?

Could it not be that He deals with His creation in terms of covenants, and that the Old Mosaic covenant was not applicable to the Gentiles.

PUT ON YOUR THINKING CAP!
---Lee on 3/25/08


Geoff - *But God doesn't change, neither does His law.

The most obvious verse in the whole Bible that disproves that contention is Hebrews 7:12 'For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well.'

And there are other verses that state the Old Covenant is obsolete (8,13) and if obsolete does that not mean the tenets or laws found within the OT are also considered non-applicable particularly if they are not also in the New Covenant?
---Lee on 3/25/08




Greg said the "commandments [have] been abolished" but provided not a shred of evidence. Talk about making Jesus void or meaningless, isn't this exactly what you do by changing/abolishing the law? If breaking the law brings death-Ro 3:23, 5:12, 17, 6:23, and Jesus died for our sins-Heb 7:27, then He would have died in vain if all He had to do was change or delete the law. But God doesn't change, neither does His law.
---Geoff on 3/24/08


Malachi 3:6
For I am the LORD, I change not, therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Lee, use as many versions of 2 Cor 3:7 as you wish, it's still the glory that was on Moses face and ministration of death (sacrificial system) that was passing away, not the 10 Commandments as you assume by [inserting] your speculation. And speaking of assumptions, I don't "guess" the 4th Commandment as you do because the Bible already tells us it's not-Mt 5:18.
---Geoff on 3/24/08


The law of commandments has been abolished by all that Jesus did on the cross, do you propose to make the efforts of Jesus void and meaningless?

The law of ordinances was also abolished. 'Sin' causes DEATH. Sin would have caused is to be thrown into the lake of fire.

There are BETTER THINGS (which BELONG TO SALVATION (Hebrews 6:9).
---greg on 3/20/08


Geoff - *You made the false assumption that the 10 Commandments are the ministry of death.

NOT an assumption at all! You need to read the Bible particularly 2 Cor. 3:7 Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end,...

And what else was 'craved in letters on stone' if not the 10 commandments?

STUDY the BIBLE!
---Lee on 3/20/08


Geoff - *I'm glad you admit that morality hasn't changed. Neither has God's 10 Commandments.

And which of the 10 commandments is not a moral law? If you guessed the 4th - the Sabbath commandment, you got the right answer. As warrior stated, if the 4th were a moral commandment, then one should be able to violate it 7 days a week like all moral laws, not just one day a week.

THINK!
---Lee on 3/20/08




Lee, I'm glad you admit that morality hasn't changed. Neither has God's 10 Commandments. You made the false assumption that the 10 Commandments are the ministry of death. They are not. That's the ministry of the old covenant & ceremonial law requiring the killing of innocent lambs (pointing to Jesus)-Heb 9:22.

Greg, God's 10 Commandment Law is the law of liberty because keeping it by God's grace means it is keeping is from the bondage of sin-Ro 6:23. The Law is keeping us-Ja 2:11-12.
---Geoff on 3/20/08


The 'sin laws' were abolished and replaced by the "law of LIBERTY" (James 1:25 and 2:12) and apart without the laws of sin, sin lies dead (Romans 7:8), so with neither the Ten Commandments in effect nor the ordinances/commands of the New Testament, sin has no more hold on us. The wages of sin were DEATH and would have caused us to be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14)...
Then Death and Hades were thrown...
but we don't want to belong to Hades either, so, live with a pure heart.
---greg on 3/20/08


Geoff - *Lee, it's amazing after 15x through your Bible you fail to provide a single text that says the 10 Commandments were replaced.

What Romans 13:9,10 basically states is all the commandments are summed up by love of ones neighbor and that fulfills the law. (the 10Cs are law).

In other words, the 10 commandments have been replaced by a much higher command, the one Jesus gave us. What is truly amazing is your inability to see that simple truth, perhaps you need better mentors.
---Lee on 3/19/08


Geoff - the Old Covenant with its 10 commandments was replaced by the New Covenant.

2Co 3:7-8 Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone (and that can only be the 10 commandments), came with such glory the Israelites could not gaze at Moses face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory?

We concur with rigtheouswarrior that morality has never changed from the Old to the New Covenant.
---Lee on 3/19/08


Lee, it's amazing that after 15x through your Bible you fail to provide a single text that says the 10 Commandments were replaced. Romans 13:9 doesn't say that. Care to do more research OR retract the false statement?

Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of Thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. Psalm 119:160
---Geoff on 3/19/08


1)
***There are 2 different laws - the law of Moses and the law of Moses. The difference is without any distinction whatsoever. The 10 commandments is the law of Moses and is not separate from it***

What? what was said in that para?? ...no scripture is supporting it - it looks like a demented riddle

Gods Laws HIS commandments were GIVEN TO Moses to GIVE to Israel ...GODS 10 commandments ARE NOT the laws of Moses
---Rhonda on 3/18/08


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2)
Gen 26: 4-5 - kept My charge, My COMMANDMENTS, My statutes, My LAWS

pride of religious teachings - intellectually vain and proud - determining what Gods Word means to them - spreading their lies - ignoring Gods Word His Plain Truth nothing more added to it or taken from it.

Ex 24:12
And the LORD said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I (God) will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I (God) have written, that thou mayest teach them.
---Rhonda on 3/18/08


3)
Ex 31:18
And he (God) gave unto Moses, when he(God) had made an end of communing with him (Moses) upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

Ex 32:16
And the tables were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God, graven upon the tables.

Ex 32:19 - where Moses breaks the tablets because Israel worshiping the golden calf
---Rhonda on 3/18/08


3)
Ex 31:18
And he (God) gave unto Moses, when he(God) had made an end of communing with him (Moses) upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

Ex 32:16
And the tables were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God, graven upon the tables.

Ex 32:19 - where Moses breaks the tablets because Israel worshiping the golden calf
---Rhonda on 3/18/08


4)
Ex 34:1
And the LORD said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I (God) will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou(you Moses) brakest.

Deut 5:22 refers to Ex 32:19
Deut 10:1-5 - Moses tells Israel it was GOD who had TWICE written the commandments

Anyone CLAIMING Moses wrote the 10 Commandments DENIES The Truth in Gods Word
---Rhonda on 3/18/08


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5)
the laws of Moses where the the civil laws of the nation AND ALL of Gods Commandments are within those civil laws (more than 600) that create manmade rituals over Gods Commandments these ritual made Gods commandments a BURDEN not a pleasure

Gods Laws are the commandments of God - the Ten Commandments, Psalms 19:7-8 describing Gods laws as perfect sure right and pure. Rom 7:12 law is holy
---Rhonda on 3/18/08


6)
Matt 5:17-18 I did not come to abolish but to FULFILL(original Greek word for fulfill is pleroo and it means to verify, fully preach, perfect, fill to the full) which translates to Christ verifying and perfecting the Ten Commandments, EXPANDING their meaning

Matt 5: 21-22 Christ did not abolish he made each of His commandments more binding
---Rhonda on 3/18/08


7)
Col 2:14 .Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances (Greek word meaning dogma, civil or ceremonial, public decrees - which were ordinances of men - rules of Moses) that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to His cross these ordinances of men were AGAINST GODS LAWS

Christ nailed the civil laws of Moses which were superimposed over His Commandments and the death penalty of sin to the cross
---Rhonda on 3/18/08


8)
John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments

1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him(Christ), and keepeth not his(Gods) commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
---Rhonda on 3/18/08


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Leslie - *The 10 Commandments ARE NOT done away with, ... Read your Bible,...*

I have read my Bible at least 15 times over the years. The 10 C's were replaced by a higher law.

What I think you really should say is moral law as depicted in the 10 commandments is still pertinent to Christians.

The commandments, You shall not commit adultery, not murder, not steal, not covet, and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. Rm. 13:9
---Lee on 3/6/08


The 10 Commandments ARE NOT done away with, even at the cross - they still apply to us today. What was nailed to the cross with Jesus, was the true name of Jesus in Hebrew. Read your Bible, don't just make up things for your benefit, so you can say I don't have to follow that because it offends you.
---Leslie on 3/6/08


Mima: To find the answers to your questions, I would suggest that you read some of my earlier entries contrasting the 10 commandments (Moral Law) with the ordinances (Ceremonial laws). Good hunting!
---Pierre on 3/6/08


lucy - *Lee of all people I would of thought your educated/so you said, and can identify the 2 different Laws*

There are 2 different laws - the law of Moses and the law of Moses. The difference is without any distinction whatsoever. The 10 commandments is the law of Moses and is not separate from it.

For the Christian, consider -

Romans 13:8 Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law.
---lee1538 on 11/28/06


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Kathr: "You are dead to the law by the body of Christ" Amen. And what was b4 that? The sacrificial killing of animals 4 sin and refer to the old school master Gal3:24,25 pointing to the coming of Christ. He came, and bcame the Sac/Lamb of God that took away our sins instead of animals. Amen. His dying 4 us, replaced the old system of ordinances and sacrificing of animals 4 sin. Amen.
---lucy on 11/28/06


Lee: "given only to the Jewish nation." God made the seventh day Holy thousands of years before there was such a people as Israelites/Jews.

"ceremonial observance" There are two types of sabbaths. The Sabbath (capitalized) and the sabbaths. The Sabbath is a day of rest (which is the least of the commandments). The other sabbaths are ceremonial where people worship.
---Steveng on 11/27/06


Since man's heart is cold, we don't truly know who we are. The Bible is like a mirror to the deepest part of our hearts. We need the laws to keep us on the straight and narrow path so that we will not backslide. How can we show an unsaved person that they are disobeying God if we can't prove it. The 10Cs show us we are sinners is the foundation of our Christian life. We build our godly lives knowing we are sinners first.
---Steveng on 11/27/06


guys your talking about the laws of ordinances and cereonials, the school master that pointed to Christs coming which was replaced by Christ Himself.. the 10Cs are something else and ongoing laws of God..Laws of Love. They 10Cs are the laws which are a transcript of Gods character. Lee of all people I would of thought your educated/so you said, and can identify the 2 different Laws..Your 2 busy criticizing EGW and the doctrine of SDA 2 truly see it..We are teaching the Godpel of Jesus Christ..
---lucy on 11/27/06


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Lucy: This is what I'm trying to say. We have a New relationship to Jesus Christ.
I am Crucified with Christ, brings forth fruit.


Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23Meekness, temperance: ****against such there is no law*****.

24And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
NEXT
---kathr4453 on 11/27/06


lucy#2<

Romans 6:22
But now being made free from sin,and become servants to God,ye have your fruit unto holiness,and the end everlasting life
Romans 7:4
Wherefore,my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God

No longer I but Christ in me brings fruit! Always carrying about in our body the dying of Jesus that the life of Jesus is manifest.
---kathr4453 on 11/27/06


lucy - *The 10 commandments is the transcript of God's character ...*

How does the 4th Commandment reflect the character of God? It is strictly an ceremonial observance "made" for man (Mk. 2:27) but given only to the Jewish nation as a sign of the covenant between God & Israel (Ex. 31:17)?
In Levitical 23:3, 7, 8 the Sabbath is called a "convocation". By definition it is therefore a ceremonial assembly.

Think about it!
---lee1538 on 11/27/06


Lucy, Please read Philippians 3.
That I may KNOW Him, and the fellowship of His suffering, BEING MADE CONFORMABLE to His death, that I may attain to the resurrection.
This says nothing about the 10 commandments. Paul is saying here in Philippians that we have a different relationship to Jesus Christ. Jesus became obedient unto death. He's actually saying our calling is far beyond keeping the 10 commandments.
---kathr4453 on 11/27/06


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12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
---kathr4453 on 11/27/06


The 10 commandments is the transcript of God's character which we need to conform to and that is why we are followers of Christ. Jesus is the Law and the Word. Moses Ceremonial and Ordinance Laws are the ones against us and done away. It was given, to prepare the people for the coming of Christ. They killed animals for sin and now Jesus is the Lamb of God that takes our sins away and no more animal killing.
---lucy on 11/27/06


It was the love of Jesus that held him there He knew this must be done due to our sin, sicknes, death etc. The 10 commandments are not against Us, God is not against us and He gave them to us to show us the right way and yes we do fail and need a Savior. The commandments show us that despite our failings God loves us ever so dearly because He sent us our Savior.
---Jeanne on 11/26/06


Helen - the Sabs will argue that it was only the ceremonial law that was nailed to the Cross (Col. 2:14). But the problem is, is that the New Testament never makes any distinction as to types of law. When is says we are not under the law, the law is just that - all types.

Oth, the Sabbath commandment is not a moral law but a ceremonial one that prefigured our rest in Christ for all who believe - Hebrews 4:3, and no place within the NT is there a command for Christians to observe a sabbath.
---lee1538 on 11/26/06


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Helen: Your answer does not seem as clear.these sayings laws nailed to the cross is incorrect broad & baffling.The only one nailed to the Cross was Jesus for the sins incurred by Humanity.would you clarify ?Iknow the 10Commandments are as green & fertile as God gave them thousands of years ago.
---Emcee on 11/26/06


It was the Law that was nailed to the Cross. The ten commandments are part of the Law, and cannot be separated from it, as the cults do.
---Helen_5378 on 11/26/06


how can do not lie, or do not kill be against us? these protect us and give limits to our behavior making society a better place. people please think, that is why God gave us a brain...the law of 10 commandments are thare as a standard, we all need ideals to look and strive towards. every house has needs rules, every country needs laws. the 10Cs lend order to society.please read the bible prayrfully and in context...
---dorrett on 11/25/06


Lupe, I suggest you study for your own understanding...this is the very thing Christ admonished us to do and not rely on others for our understanding...You obviously didnt do any studying to know that the Ceremonial Laws and Moral Laws are 2 different things..they are both written by 2 different people...one by God on stones and on both sides, the other by Moses in a book..and that the Sabbath is of the 4th commandment of the 10 Commandments of God the Moral Laws..study dear, study and be learned
---jana on 8/29/06


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jerry6593 - sin is often an attitude of the heart; not necessarily an action in itself. If we fail to obey God or fail to worship Him we are basically guilty of disbelief or idolatry. Thus my definition (really the one I learned from one of my theology classes) does indeed include transgression of the law but like Christ extends upon it. See Mt. 5 on the "But I say unto you".
---lee on 1/28/06


Galatians 5:17 For ALL THE LAW is fulfilled in one word. "LOVE YOUR NEIGHTBOR AS YOURSELF!" Now that's supposed to be read this way, "LoveThyNeighborAsThyself" Get it? How do we recognize each other, or you shall know them by their fruits? Galatians 5:22&23. It starts out with love, and there's seven more fruit there. Do them! That scripture is saying the same thing as the Ten Commandments! There's no religion to it!!!!
---Nahoka on 1/28/06


Lee: You said "People think of sin as breaking of God's law." Well, how else can one interpret John's words "sin IS the transgression of the law?" (1 John 3:4) Perhaps you have made up another definition of sin. You seem to base your beliefs on your own feelings rather than on the word of God.
---jerry6593 on 1/28/06


Mima, I am convinced we are saying the same thing. I keep the seventh day rest by faith, without laws, rules, or regulations to obey the commandment of love. It has two parts: love for God, and love for our fellow men. Matt.22:34-40. The first four commandments relate to love for God; and I obey the fourth to show this. A law free sabbath is like being with Him in the cornfield picking and eating corn, or praying for the sick to be healed by Him. Matt.12:1-14) This is the Word, Mima.
---Wilfr3588 on 12/9/05


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In Christ, believing Jews and Gentiles are one body-a new creation. 2Cor.5:17; 1 Cor.12:13; Gal.6:5; Under Christ, love is the "New Commandment"-on "love hangs all the law and the prophets." Romans 4:23-31; Matthew 22:34-40; 2 John 4-6) I teach the seventh day rest in Christ is without law; Christ is Lord of the sabbath, and we, believers who enter into His abode then, demonstrate our love for God through Christ. Heb.4:1-11)
---wilfr3588 on 12/9/05


The old covenant is null and void, the Jewish Nation; all others have to submit to revolutionary changes-the righteousness of God. Romans 10:1-5; 6-12; Gal.3: 1-5; Acts 10:34-35) The 10 commandments are in believers minds and hearts though we "serve in the newness of Spirit now." Heb.8:10-13; Romans7:4-7) Paul said, "I had not known lust... "Thou shall not covet." For the same reason, believers keep the Lord's seventh day rest Gen.2:2-3; Heb.4:1-11.
---wilfr3588 on 12/9/05


The Word declares both Jews, and Gentiles were under sin. Romans 3:9; 23; Gal 3:22; 25-29) Therefore both needed a savior; and mutual respect. Romans 6:23) Christ became "the end of the law for righteousness" on believing Jews' part; and ensured the "blessings of Abraham come to believing Gentiles through Him..." when justification by faith took effect. Gal.3:13-17; Romans 10:4-12; Col.2:9) Now, both believing groups are made into one group-Sons of God with the Spirit.Gal.4:1-7
---wilfr_3588 on 12/9/05


The Word declares both Jews, and Gentiles were under sin. Romans 3:9; 23; Gal 3:22; 25-29) Hence both needed a savior;and to have mutual respect. Romans 6:23) Christ became "the end of the law for righteousness" on believing Jews' part, and He ensured the "blessings of Abraham come to the believing Gentiles through Him..." when justification by faith came into effect. Gal.3:13-17; Romans 10:4-12; Col.2:9) Now, the redeemed groups are sons of God with His Spirit. Gal.4:1-7
---wilf3588 on 12/9/05


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wilfr3588 - you are correct in the sense that the law was a schoolmaster to lead us to faith in Christ, but once it has accomplished its purpose, you can then live by faith alone in Christ alone; not by laws, rules, regulations, etc. as clearly the law depicts your sinfulness and inability to save yourself.

Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
---lee on 12/8/05


The ten commandments are not against us, and were not nailed to the cross. They are God's moral law and standard for mankind to know what's right from wrong. Romans 7:7-12 ) The fourth commandment is an integral part of the ten, bears His name, and distinguishes Him from all other gods since none but Yahweh is Creator of heaven and earth. Gen.1:1) The ordinances nailed to the cross were those of divine services, and a worldly sanctuary.Heb.9:1; Heb.9; and 10.
---wilfr3588 on 12/8/05


Sister Ulrika, glad to see you back on line. I loved your answer. continue to help for everyone has a job to do and it is for the glory of God. I do love the way Charles Stanley preaches, he is a great teacher of God's word. Welcome back
---Lupe2618 on 12/4/05


Ulrika ... I do not recall any scripture about the commandments being nailed to the Cross, but have heard the phrase used, with the message that they are nailed there with Christ, because He has paid the penalty for our disobedience of them ... provided of course that we repent and trust in Him.
But some seem to say (and this surely is wrong) that as they have been nailed there, we no longer have to keep them.
---alan8869_of_UK on 12/4/05


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No, ten commandments are not against us. On TV Charles Stanley spoke about the ten commandments. He said it is for the protection of people and families. He said as I believe that since Jesus rose early the first day of the week, that is our day of rest and whorship. I have not been able to find that sermon on his website Intouch Minnistries yet.
Where in scripture does it say the ten commandments where nailed to cross?The commandments are our guide that tells right from wrong.
---Ulrika on 12/4/05


5. All the other passages have to fall in its order but never to compromise God's sovereignty, nature or attributes. Many here compromise Scriptures to make their point but disregard the other Scriptures altogether. You have answered the way I would have answered and I believe you have your theology correct. Of course no one is perfect and we continue to learn everyday. You have done great brother. We need more of your answers on questions.
---Lupe2618 on 12/4/05


4. When we speak of the Love of God, we should also speak of the Wrath of God. They go hand in hand. God does not change so His wrath is still in effect. We don't go around drinking poison the way the Bible says, because we know we will die. So what is explained to us through Scripture has a meaning and its up to us to connect it correctly. Systematic Theology is the correct way to put all Scripture in order. What things change and what doesn't. God's Sovereignty, nature, and attributes never change.
---Lupe2618 on 12/4/05


3. The traditional laws were done away also. Eloy talks about turning the other cheek, but that phrase is for the indiviual only, not the one hitting you. He only feels conviction when he understands the laws of God. He is faced with God's wrath and wants to change. How else can he have a coviction to repent? Yes, it is easy to take a passage and make it your own just as the Word Faith teachers teach. But God's Word is to be used in its totality.
---Lupe2618 on 12/4/05


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2. Christians want to just abolish all of the Old. For instance, Grace, many seem to think this is the age of Grace and forget that people were saved by grace in the Old testament just like now. And the Law, Christians want to abolish the whole law, because of Christs' death but the moral laws of God still stand and will because they are His nature and He never changes. The SDA's want to connect the Sabbath with the moral law but it was a ceremonial law and that was done with through Christ.
---Lupe2618 on 12/4/05


Lee, I have read almost all of your answers and I believe you are correct. Many have studied very much and know a whole lot but they seem to take one verse by itself and use it as a foundation of their believes. It is easy to do that and many have. I don't say they are all wrong but as you said it all has to fit in its totallity. Everything has to connect or else the foundation is wrong. We have been given the Old Testament and the New, so it is up to us to connect it all.
---Lupe2618 on 12/4/05


I think that len_k is right in that there are too many "Lone Ranger" Christians out there developing their own belief system. That is why I strongly support the teaching ministry of the church and often look beyond the bible to its commentaries and books on doctrine. The one that has a course in systematic theology is well equipped to debate the various issues.
---lee on 12/3/05


There is a big division within conservative protestantism, legalism and non legalistic. The ten commandment question brings this out. My family was very legalistic. Both divisions use verses to back their claims, none have developed theologies. American fundamentalism is 'a form of' gnosticism, therefore everyone 'is their own church.' I ask, where is the authority to administer in holy ordiances? Is the 'Church' invisable, so all Christianity is subjective? Is saying the right words all that is needed?
---len_k on 12/3/05


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People think of sin as breaking of Gods law; but Gods law under the Old Covenant that was given to the Jewish nation?

If under OT laws, then is lighting a fire in your home on the Sabbath a sin (Ex. 35:3)? Indeed it would be a sin for those that believe the OT is applicable to the church.

I believe we can limit ourselves totally to what is taught in the NT and be righteous in our behavior.

Frankly, I like the more theological definition of sin as being idolatry or unbelief.
---lee1538 on 11/29/05


Sin is still defined the same way. Jesus tells us that "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." If you have a problem with the ten commandments, and I think we all do at some time, you need to repent.
---mike on 11/29/05


Jerry - "... would seem that your beliefs are based on the words of men rather than the Word of God."

You need to realize that it was EGW & Company that introduced NEW doctrines; not seen in the church for centuries and disputable from a scriptural standpoint. It is those "New" doctrines like the Investigative judgment, worshippers of God baring the mark of the beast; etc. that should be suspected as being the word of men (in this case, a woman).
---lee on 11/29/05


mike - "But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor." Gal 3

Once the function of law is accomplished, only then we can one live by faith.
---lee on 11/29/05


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As a matter of fact, the 10 commandments are a critical element of salvation. God, in His infinite wisdom, defined sin for us - so we would know what His Son is to redeem us from.
---mike on 11/29/05


Jerry - thanks for throwing in the towel. As I pointed out the SDA avoids church history like the plague because it testifies against some of their beliefs.

I beleive that there are some that can stand with the Pharisee in Luke 18, and with much pride tell God that they are the ones that observe the sabbath unlike those sunday worshipers.
---lee on 11/29/05


Eloy are you suggesting that man, convicted of rape, should not have been imprisoned, because maybe the verdict was incorrect? In thaty case, let us put no-one in jail. In fact, let us not try to catch and punish anyone.
---alan8869_of_UK on 11/29/05


Alan, innocent people are imprisoned and executed. Recall how all the Apostles, innocent, but still arrested, beaten, jailed, beheaded, exiled, and given the death sentence? It is sin. i recall how a black man was imprisoned over 20 years, afterward a preacher believed the prisoner, had the case reopened, and the girl who accused him of rape confessed that she lied in court. He was released without so much as an apology for destroying his life. 23 years ago, i have been personally cheated by the system.
---Eloy on 11/29/05


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Lee: It would seem that your beliefs are based on the words of men rather than the Word of God. We therefore have no common ground from which to procede. "But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." (Mat 15:9) "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." (Isa 8:20)
---jerry6593 on 11/29/05


Eloy ... If we are talking about earthly life, yes the church does say it should be for all. What then about protection of the innocent, many of whom lose their lives because of the wooly-minded release of known murderers, who go back and do it again. I too do nt appprove of the death penalty, but many innocents dire because the criminal no longer has the threat of the death penalty. Improsenment for murder should be permanent and unpleasant
---alan8869_of_UK on 11/28/05


Alan, the true church advocates life for all, and never the death sentence to anyone. You would think that man, after they've killed the Innocent, and the Innocent cried Father forgive them, and darkness followed all across the land for 3 hours at mid day, that man would have learned. But they have not learned, they still do this very sin, and many innocent are still executed. When authorities discover later they've killed even the wrong person there's no repentance, only "Whoops, never care."
---Eloy on 11/28/05


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