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America As A Theocracy

Some protestant Christians in America (fundamentalist) are working for an autocratic Theocracy, as opposed to our pluralistic Democratic Republic. I find this a threat, as history shows theocratic goverments are dictaterships. What say you?

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who went on to almost exterminate the indigenous people, and to use slaves to grow tobacco, and incidently to use the Bible to justify the use of black slavery? And did not their bible believing descendants deny black people normal human rights?
---alan8869_of_UK on 1/8/06
Alan does England, with the colonies it had all around the world, have a stellar history in human rights?
---Donna on 7/18/07


America will never be a theocracy because we have religious freedom, and this is what we try to prepetuate through the world. those that support a theocracy which denomination will have control? I dont' think I want any of them leading our country (because most of them can't keep their own churches from spliting after a decade or so)
---Jared on 11/12/06


As to politics, I am (l)ibertarian. A strict constitutionalist, Jeffersonian. As to religion, the Judeo-Christianity is the cultural mooring of our society. I support a secular state, but a pluralistic religious nation, small goverment. Both the republican and socialist democrats have abandoned this, and nihilistic secularism is destroying our culture, mostly through the courts. Welfare, morals should emit from churchs and synagogues not goverment, be it left or right wing.
---SLCGuy on 3/5/06


Please believe me that I speak for many fundamentalists when I say that ANY autocracy would be totally unacceptable (until Jesus rules during the Millenium.) The American Constitution is the best guide for government I know. God gave us ALL free choice. I CHOSE to be a Christian. Others chose something else or nothing at all. I have the right to speak of my faith. Others do too. I will work and pray for Biblical(as I see them) laws, but leave the results to God and the democratic process.
---Donna on 3/5/06


SLCGuy, what do you mean by "right wing"? Are you talking about politics or religion? Political "right wing" adherents, may attend very liberal churches and not have much use for religious "fundamentalists". Some "fundamentalists", consistantly support the Democratic party. In politics it is "right" or "left". In American Christianity, it is "fundamentalist" vs "liberal" (sometimes called "mainstream")
---Donna on 3/5/06




A few obscure leaders? I hope you are right.
I do not sweat over right wing political activism. It is a perception (politics is perception) that a growing number of fundamentalist want a theocracy, out goes the constitution, in goes the Bible, meaning an autocratic theocracy. I am told it will never happen as the right wing fights too much among themselves, to divided to take on the left, or anyone else.
---SLCGuy on 3/5/06


Let the dead bury the dead. Our business is to win souls and lets do it. Theocracy fails in some churches itself, nation is a long way. This ambition is not worthy. Governance on a national scale involves, compromise which God might not permit.
---aurunoday on 3/4/06


SLCguy. I googled what you suggested. Sounds to me like hysteria re: the rhetoric of a few obscure "Christian leaders" plus undue concern over some traditional "fundamentalist" views.
Christians who are "pro-life, family, religious rights" naturally want to see their views reflected in legislation. "Pro-gay marriage, abortion and "freedom from religion" people want the same. We are a democracy.. Political activism is a far cry from "theocracy".
---Donna on 3/4/06


I should not have said, so called fundamentalist Christians. That is what they are called.
This blog is first I have heard of them, so I read a little about it online. They may be born again Christians. It depends on each individual.
---Ulrika on 3/4/06


Yes, recently heard about somebody wanting as many Christians as possible to move to (S or N Carolina?) so that they could have more "Christian" influence in government...made me laugh. Maybe they could build their own city...nobody HAS to live there. Utah's been Morman controlled for decades.. hard to get work there if you're not one. Still 49 other states tho! "Fundamentalists" ... usually can't even agree on the color of church carpet, let alone form a theocracy, IMHO.
---Donna on 3/4/06




Ulrika, don't take it personal, because its not meant to be. You said "I have never heard of any Christians in America pushing for a theocracy." and I simply listed a few. Whether they are Christians or not is between them and God.
---NurseRobert on 3/4/06


I am not responsible for what so called fundamentalist Christian leaders say. I am not a part a religious movement. I did not realise that the meaning of fundamental Bible believing had changed. I realise there are extremes too far to the right and left in religions and politics, that are dangerous. There are some peachers on TV who have a genuine desire to share the gospel.
---Ulrika on 3/4/06


The one wanting a theocracy; Look up on the web 'reconstructionism', 'kingdon theology, then 'dominion theology' and 'Wallbuilders' People like Randell Terry, David Barton, to name a few. Yes, many fundamentalist want a theocracy.
---SLCGuy on 3/4/06


Ulrika, In one of my posts I listed a number of fundamentalist christian leaders who, at one time or another, have advocated a theocracy in this country. Just yesterday, I saw a story about the founder of Dominos pizza that wants to build a city based on Catholic beliefs and where he would control what can and cant be done there. (its on CNN.com as well as other places) I find the concept very scary
---NurseRobert on 3/4/06


Whatever a person's political affilation,if they like, or dislike our leaders,the Bible makes it clear, Proverbs 8:15-16 By me Kings reign and princes decree justice. By me princes rule,and nobles,even all the judges of the earth. We are to pray for them not raise hate against them. If a bad ruler pray.A good one pray. Are Christians doing their Spiritual "political" jobs? Only prayers can change anything. Faith moves mountains,hate builds walls. Satan's trap, entanglement in political strife.
---Darlene_1 on 3/4/06


Donna, thank you. I can certainly understand and appreciate your passion. I feel the same way when people on this site spit out the words "liberal" and "democrat" like we were the spawn of satan.
---NurseRobert on 3/4/06


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Moderator ... did you protect me from the lies?

Moderator - Alan, do you want to get removed from the site? I am not going to go rounds with you. Last warning.
---alan8869_of_UK on 3/4/06


No, Mod... I am not madison, though it seems we both have the same ideas.

Moderator - My apologies.
---NurseRobert on 3/4/06


Donna: Thank you. I know my ideas are not well liked in most Christian circles. I only ask that we agree to disagree agreeably. I understand your passion for your beliefs about this issue, and I respect that.
---Madison on 3/4/06


The Lord has convicted me of my behavior toward you, Madison, NurseRobert and Alan. I am sorry for my caustic tongue. I still disagree with you and regret only the manner in which I did it.. It's such an emotional subject, and somehow, the anonimity of the internet made it so much easier to vent. But I was wrong to be so inconsiderate and hope you'll forgive me. (Esp. you, Alan. I had not read the blogs where you praised America).
---Donna on 3/4/06


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Not sure what you mean by "Fundamentalist" , Dictionary calls it; a movement in 20th century Protestantism which stresses literal interpretation of the Bible as "fundamental" to Christian Life and teaching. Should be all Christians. If Christians don't believe the literal Word is the foundation of their Christian walk, then I ask where is their Christianity? God's Word gave us all we need to live righteously,it is the basic principals of our life in Christ. That's Fundamental truth.
---Darlene_1 on 3/4/06


Moderator ... I am not sure quite what you mean when you say of me: "He kids on both sides" It seems you interpret my contributions as supporting both sides of a discussion. I do not do that ... but I do not like to see unfair tactics used, whether it be from the opposing side, or from "my" side.

Moderator - I understand, however for one reading the comments they can appear like one is poking on people. It is better to stay out as that is the job of the moderators and more of those types of posts from all bloggers will just get deleted.
---alan8869_of_UK on 3/4/06


I consider myself a fundamentalist (if that means I believe the word of God, and scripture is what I base my faith on). I don't believe a theocratic goverment is a good thing. I believe in the democracy and the constitution we have in this USA. I have never heard of any Christians in America pushing for a theocracy.
---Ulrika on 3/4/06


I say learn to spell "dictatorship." I think that America already is an autocratic theocracy, and the state religion is atheism. As a country, I think we have more to fear from the religion-prohibiting left than we do from the religious right.
---jerry6593 on 3/4/06


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(I have been accused of being SEVERAL people. I have enough trouble being ME!) In the US I refer to the religious right, who want America as a theocracy. I can name a dozen well protestant leaders in that fight. It does seem more Calvinist than anything, but the fundamentalst have 'Kingdom Now' theology, very popular in the west.
---SLCGuy on 3/4/06


He's got the whole world as His foot stool. Study the founding documents of this country, then come back to the table for this was suppose to be a Republic Of the people by the people for the people....
---Lynn on 3/4/06


Thank you, moderator.
---Donna on 3/3/06


Moderator: Why do you ask if I am Nurse Robert? Check our e-mail addresses. If I come on here as another identity, as rare as that is, it is anonymously. I am a social worker and public school teacher, and not a nurse. Also, I am a female and would never take on a male identity.

Moderator - I ask because within 5 minutes posts came from both of you stating the same types of things about Donna, therefore you couldn't have read each others comments unless you were the same person. I guess you both must think and write VERY much alike. My apologies.
---Madison on 3/3/06


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I do not think I have been one bit harder on you than you have been of me. Of course it's hard to defend myself against "a little input" from to 2 or 3 people and also try to explain to Alan that the U.S. is not as bad as you make it sound and that Capitalism is not "unchristian" (economic systems and Christianity are 2 different animals anyway, IMO) I did misunderstand Alan, and I apologise to him.

Moderator - Hi kids on both sides, I am not posting anymore silliness. Time out if we can't behave :)
---Donna on 3/3/06


#2 Honestly, I've been around "fundamentaliats" for years and NEVER heard anybody say that! I'm no fan of Pat Robertson but I've never even heard him say that. That may be what you read into it...but the fundamentalists that I've known would re-coil in horror at the thought. I did not "slam bloggers from the U.K." I said they extol Socialism, THAT's ALL. They have a "Socialist" Party which seemly corresponds roughly to the liberal or Dem party here. Alan helped me see that.
---Donna on 3/3/06


#1 Madison, YOU are inundated by conservatives? It looks the opposite to me. Notice. I make 1 comment...and get 5 back accusing me of this or that.You talk about WE stand up for ourselves. I can only talk about I...since I'm the outsider here. Posting on a blog as silly as accusing Dems as working for Satan doen't mean I agree with that. The title of this blog is almost as offensive to me...as if "fundamentalists" are trying to turn this country into a "dictatorship".
---Donna on 3/3/06


Are we listening to 'Savage Nation?' The One World Government is probably autocratic democracy. A theocratic government not ruled by God is a false government. The government of God has many facets, flesh and blood being one facet created by God with Jesus Christ as the mediator between the flesh and God. There is a world of angels with levels of government; that's another.
---gregg8944 on 3/3/06


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Donna, after rereading this blog, I guess Im confused. I don't see where anyone has "mobbed" you. Madison, Alan and I have responed to your questions and statements. You asked "WHO are these fundamentalists who are seeking to have an autocratic Theocracy in America?" and I gave you a list. And I dont think that you "ARE all alike and that you know us SO well", heck, some of "you" are actually nice people.
---NurseRobert on 3/3/06


Donna ... may I look at this discussion from, as it were, outside, not being a US citizen? You say that you are forever criticising your government, but you seem to jump at NorseR and Madison for critising some aspects of American government... You seem to jump on them much harder than they jump on you. You also jump on me and continue to do so, for my "anti-Americanism", (which was mild criticism) but you must have missed the blogs where I have praised and thanked your country
---alan8869_of_UK on 3/3/06


The other blog you talk about accused Democrats of working for Satan. What we did was stand up and express what we actually believe in. What you see as up "liberals" mobbing you is the same thing that happens to anyone with left leaning beliefs expresses an opinion on this web site. Why does that make you so angry? You and I disagree, there is nothing wrong with that.

Moderator - OK, is Madison and NurseRobert the same person?
---NurseRobert on 3/3/06


Donna: You assume that I cannot stand conservatives, and that is just untrue. I cannot stand the conservatives who run our country, but the people I worship the Lord with I love with all my heart. Please do not put words into my mouth, as I never said anything that would indicate a disdain for you.

Also, try to understand, you are not being mobbed by liberals. NurseRobert and I are usually inundated by conservatives.
---Madison on 3/3/06


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Donna: It is interesting that you slammed the bloggers from the UK, but you can't stand to hear a little input from a liberal either.
---Madison on 3/3/06


It took me awhile, but I now see that I unknowingly stepped with both feet into a nest of angry liberals. I'm not going to stay around to be mobbed from the left. At first I thought I might be a bit paranoid. But now that I have read some of your other blogs, Madison and NurseRobert, I see that you treat all conservatives alike (since you seem to think we ARE all alike and that you know us SO well) So it's not just ME you can't stand! We will never agree...but that's OK.
---Donna on 3/3/06


Donna, from what I'm reading, it was a discussion regarding the issues. It turned from a Theocratic government (for which there are many proponents) to one of "slandering" a country. If America cannot handle a little slandering, then we are all in trouble. We have a great arrogance in the country and Americans tend to be very ethnocentric.
---NurseRobert on 3/2/06


Nurse Robert: Of course! I criticize the government and policies all the time. I try to be sensitive to other peoples' feelings though, and avoid inflammatory language esp.if I don't know them well and suspect we may disagree. But, if it can't be an objective discussion on ISSUES, I usually leave. (For awhile there I thought we might change the subject a little) Guess not. Bye
---Donna on 3/1/06


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You know, Donna. The one thing I love most about this country is that I can criticize its' leader and its' policies. And I also recognize that our relationship with the a good part of the rest of the world is in the dumpster.
---NurseRobert on 3/1/06


A Theocracy in this country scares me. What form of "Christianity" would we have running this government? What happen when I disagreed with what the government decided I should believe?
---NurseRobert on 3/1/06


One only has to open their eyes to find many of todays "Chrisitian" Leaders advocate theocracy. Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, (The Moral Majority) , The American Family Association, Tom Delay, Ralph Reed are just a few of them. There are those in congress who were/are still trying to pass the Constitution Restoration Act of 2005 which makes it possible for the Congress to charge any judge with a crime who disagrees with the concept that all law, liberty, and government comes only from God.
---NurseRobert on 3/1/06


Madison, I have to agree with you. The policies driving this country have caused many in this world to look at us and wonder just what is going on. Our policies in Iraq were wrong from the beginning. We went after a two-bit dictator and do nothing about North Korea or Iran. We support governments, like Saudi Arabia that do NOT have our interests at heart. Now Bush wants to give port security to a foreign government that just a few years ago supported the very terrorists that we are fighting against.
---NurseRobert on 3/1/06


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What a wonderful debate. I love living in a country where we can criticize government and each other.
---NurseRobert on 3/1/06


Actually MiMa, I don't know what God is doing in this country. We certainly DESERVE His judgement. But what is going on with Israel cannot be God's desire. I do seem to recall, however, that a divided Israel is prophesied, even the dividing of the city of Jerusalem. I'll have to do a little study to present any references though.
---Donna on 3/1/06


Madison:
Just had to get in one more "dig" didn't ya.
---Donna on 3/1/06


MiMa--Could be. I'm no prophet. I know that Condi is a believer in "Replcement Theology" and thus believes that Isreal is no longer the "apple of His eye" (I don't agree with that but G.W, might)
---Donna on 3/1/06


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The present administration is a disaster. I have friends who say, "God is in the White House". If so the almighty has turned against Israel the apple of his eye. The parting of Israel's land cannot be in line the word. Could it be that America is under God's judgment and the instrument of His judgment is named George W. Bush?
---mima on 3/1/06


Donna: If you are one of the people who believed that Bush's reasons for going into Iraq were noble, and therefore offended by my criticism in the "laughing stock" remarks, I apologize. I just find it hard to believe that so many people are that naive.
---Madison on 3/1/06


NVBarbara: I correspond with my congresspersons regularly, too. I believe this administration has made some real blunders, especially in regards to their decisions about Medicare and their cuts to CHIPS. They have a dismal record where health care is concerned. But that's another subject.
---Donna on 3/1/06


#2 As I read it, Madison, you were agreeing with your overseas friends that America SHOULD be a "laughingstock".."because so many Americans believe that we went to war for a good cause" After all, you and your friends "know the TRUTH". How you came to this superior knowledge you haven't said. Criticism of the administration doesn't offend me. But this does.
---Donna on 3/1/06


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NVBarbara, I'd LIKE to think that most criticism is out of concern for our country, too.

Mike-welcome to the fray. Just because no wmd were FOUND doesn't mean there were none.

Madison, I do not believe you were just "criticizing the current administration". If you were, you would have said so, as in, "I believe the administration is wrong because.:."
---Donna on 3/1/06


wmd? People continue to say that there was no wmd in iraq. This regime destroyed masses in their own country several times. no wmd? hmmm.
---mike on 3/1/06


Well, I guess I missed a lot by not reading this blog for a couple of days :)
---NurseRobert on 3/1/06


Blair and Bush expect criticism.
Alan, I'm sure I would have come to your defense if I had seen those blogs. I saw none of them. (except I did think you were denigrating the U.S.) I don't think the U.S. or it's administation is always right, but I'm a bit defensive with all the anti-Americanism that's about.( sort of as I would be at an insult to my mother, sorry)
I'm not offended by a good debate based on reason....and backed by solid information. But the critics seldom present that.
---Donna on 2/28/06


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I like to think that most criticism is out of concern for our country. I supported Bush over Kerry, but that does not keep me from writing to the Government blogs about Tax cuts, health care, and other critical issues. I am in a split district and have 3 Senators and I'm on all of their mailing lists. I write them when I read they are not pulling in the the direction of their constituants.
---NVBarbara on 2/28/06


Donna: I do write my congressperson. I did not attack you or anyone else on this blog. I criticized the current administration.
---Madison on 2/28/06


Donna ... I do not think Blair, or Bush, or any statesman worth his salt would be offended by criticism.
You say offending others on these blogs accomplishes nothing. In that case, you would no doubt have leapt to my defence had you seen the blogs accusing me of defending paedophile priests, supporting Gay rights and abortion, and of hating America, as did all English.
---alan8869_of_UK on 2/28/06


Criticism is necessary to good government. So write your congressman! Offending others on this blog accomplishes nothing.
---Donna on 2/28/06


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Alan, Donna, and Mima: A wise man taught me this quote: "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

Criticism is a necessary element of a democracy. If a government cannot stand criticism it can become an anarchy.
---Madison on 2/27/06


You and your friends are entitled to your opinions. History will judge the Iraq situation. (And I'm moving on to a blog with a less acrimonious tone.)
---Donna on 2/27/06


Madison & Donna ... we are critical sometimes of our own countries, and perhaps more often of other countries, because we tend to think our own is better than others. Criticism is necessary, otherwise those in power can get corrupted by it. Criticism should not be confused with slander, which is telling lies.
---alan8869_of_UK on 2/27/06


Madison: perhaps you have some very wise friends.
---mima on 2/27/06


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Donna: I have friends who live in countries that opposed the US invasion of Iraq. They see us as the laughing stock because so many Americans believe that we went to war for a good cause. The other countries know the truth. There were no WMDs and we are there for oil for certain businesses connected to the White House.
---Madison on 2/27/06


Great point, Alan! "We have not changed". Nations around the globe, no matter their official or unofficial religion, continue to oppress,attack, neglect and kill those of other ethnicities...even their own. No government has the answer. It is the sin principle at work." All have sinned and come short of the glory of God". I have not thrown the first stone, nor slandered any man's homeland. I only ask that others here (yes, other Americans too) do not slander mine.
---Donna on 2/27/06


Donna ... there is no need to remind me of the history of England ... I live in what was one of the great slaving ports in the country. I am also aware of the gross infringement of human rights committed by Calvinist Protestants in Northern Ireland againt the Roman Catholics, and this ended not so long ago. Sadly, we do not change, as shown by the war crimes committed by a few American and British in Iraq.
---alan8869_of_UK on 2/27/06


Alan, you were describing the gross human rights offenses in American history. I just wanted to remind you that England doesn't have a spotless record in her history either. I wasn't talking about either country in the present.
---Donna on 2/27/06


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Donna ... I did not mean to imlpy that you did think that. But from this quote "But the left, as I see it, doesn't lead to chaos but to Socialism/Communism where the government controls all and there is no room for personal initiative" I got the feeling that you feared that socialism could lead to communism. I wanted to reassure you that it has not happened here.
---alan8869_of_UK on 2/27/06


Madison, the government that you dispise gives tax incentives to big business (whom you no doubt consider the "enemy") so that they will help fund PRIVATE agencies that help people with drug/alcohol problems, chronic disease etc. Maybe you would rather pay for that out of your OWN pocket with your own taxes.
---Donna on 2/27/06


Alan, please, I NEVER called the U.K. a Communist country and never would. Don't know where you got that. I wrote a bit about the American welfare system and labour unions just to let you know that people in this country DO have avenues to receive help.
---Donna on 2/27/06


Donna ... # 2 My comments about protection of workers etc were intended to explain what socialism meant over here, that it is not full-bloodied communism. It was not to compare the UK with the US.
---alan8869_of_UK on 2/27/06


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Donna ... # 1 I believe you quote me out of context. All nations have chequered histories. If you referred to the fact than only a few centuriea ago, we hanged people for stealing, would that mean you were criticising our current punishment system as too harsh?
---alan8869_of_UK on 2/27/06


wish I COULD find all the blogs I was talking about but I can't remember all the titles - I keep hearing that America is a "laughing stock" I've heard that over and over until I'm sick of it.. depends on which country you are talking about.. (I have a few friends in Australia who actually LIKE us!). I don't approve of every thing our government does. But I don't understand, Madison, why you delight in calling us a "laughingstock"?
---Donna on 2/27/06


Donna: Those corporations do not need recognition for their charitable donations. They get tax breaks for them. They also get tax breaks from their Republican cronies in the White House and Congress. Recognition does not help their bottom line. The Republicans do that for them.
---Madison on 2/26/06


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