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Rich Man And Lazarus

When we read of the rich man and Lazarus - one in Abraham's bosom and one in Paradise, they are both obviously very conscious and speaking. Yet the bible says 'the dead have no consciousness'. I am confused. Any help appreciated.

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jody,
Mark 9:4: "And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses:
and they were talking with Jesus."
What do you call that incident, a magic trick?
---Nana on 4/30/08


Without all of the sidetracking, I stick with the Bible "the dead have no consciousness". As the bloggers seem to basically agree, this is a parable like unto the others that Jesus used to speak with the spiritually undiscerning. We really are not conscious after we die as Jesus taught. Only in the STORY to make a point. I will stop there to answer your question. The blogs give great explanation of the meaning of the parable and even go beyond.
---jody on 4/29/08


The only thing that would confuse you is the that old dead soul sleep teaching, emg.
That's where all of the confusion comes in when trying to rightly discern the Word of God.

Abraham's Bosom, a very real location about a real man named Lazarus.
Hades, a very real place. A great gulf, very real. Not fictitious places or characters. Very real.
---lisa on 4/29/08


The rich man and Lazarus is a parable. "Hell", at this time, is a state of being under the wrath of God. We all start out that way (Ps 51:5, Ps 58:3-6). On Judgment Day, God will cast all the unregenerate into the lake of fire. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matt 24:51, Matt 25:30). "And in hell he lift up his eyes..." is parabolic language.
---Ed_from_IL on 9/30/07


A literal reading of the parable might require an answer to your question. But, a parable is a story which reveals a greater truth. Getting lost in the details like you are referring to makes it easy to miss the point(s) Jesus is trying to make.
---Ron on 9/27/07




Jeffrey as to your passages that allegedly support the position that "the dead are not conscious" a cursory investigation would reveal: 1.Ps 6 has David asking God to heal him as there is no "remembrance" of God in Sheol (rather than "consciousness"). His point is dead people don't praise God. 2.Ps117 says there is "silence" in Hades not "unconsciousness". The dead do not praise God is his point.(cont.)
---Sabachthani on 2/10/07


Jeffrey (cont.) 3. Ecc9 Solomon says the "dead know nothing" not that they are "unconscious." 4.Isa38 Isaiah says "those who go down to the pit cannot hope for your truth" not that they are "unconscious". Even sleeping people are conscious of having dreamed while sleeping.
---Sabachthani on 2/10/07


A few verses that indicate that the dead are not conscious: Psalm 6:5, Psalm 115:7, Ecc 9:4-6, Isaiah 38:18. Also note Acts 2:34-35 and the reference to the dead being asleep in 1 Cor 15:51-58 and 1 Thes 4:13-18.

I've been unable to respond until now, but I'm surprised that emg hasn't already given the requested references.
---Jeffrey on 2/6/06


Elder: Amen for God's unchangeable "bottom line" despite the opposition of truth twisting naysayers.
---Leon on 12/30/05


Elder, i agree. A big A-men.
---Eloy on 12/28/05




Ulrika, you are so right. It appears that some who deny Luke 16 are trying to say it is a Parable so we don't have to pay any attention to the Truth involved there.
I believe, for many reasons, the event being related was an actual happening. But that doesn't matter because it shares Truth to the readers. Jesus spoke Truth His Word is Truth so whatever we consider Luke 16 or any other part is Truth. That is the bottom line.
---Elder on 12/28/05


Luke 16:19 could be a true story, a parable, or both. Jesus would knew what he was talking about, and he wouldn't lie. The story has spiritual truths. Matthew 27:52 I believe this was the resurrection of OT believers. 1Thessalonians 4:14-17 I believe,those who believe in Jesus, who have died their souls sleeps now. When Christ comes they will be resurrected, changed(1Corinthians 15:51-54), and caught up together in the air along with live believers. I think, our spirit goes to heaven when we die.
---Ulrika on 12/27/05


The Luke 16 account would not lose any of its Truth if it were a Parable.
Cliff told Eloy, "You don't understand the "object" of the parable." Well, strange Cliff didn't say what the "object" was.
Then he said Jesus was telling "fictitious" stories. Fiction = something that is not true. Now according to Cliff we have Jesus telling an untruth.
Cond #2-->
---Elder on 12/27/05


Cond #2-->
Next the statement is made that Lazarus didn't say where he had been. Well, we don't see Lazarus saying anything so that proves nothing.
What does prove something is that there is no parable anywhere in Scripture that Jesus ever used a personal name.
If you notice the Rich Man and his brothers would not listen either.
---Elder on 12/27/05


1stcliff, This parable disposes of two errors it is a story that shows respect for the human person. Read my last post carefully.
---Johann on 12/26/05


Jeffrey, what verses say the dead have no consciouness?
---Ulrika on 12/21/05


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jeff, no where in the Bible does it say the dead are not conscious, for the word conscious is not mentioned anywhere in the scriptures. When a person dies, all bodily functions cease, brain function, heart beat, growth, movement, and the blood discontinues to nourish the body. But know that the spirit never dies. All are raised either to everlasting life, or to everlasting damnation. Please read Daniel 12:2; Revelation 20:12-15.
---Eloy on 12/21/05


Jeffrey thank you for bringing this back to the question that I actually asked. Many say it was a parable, therefore consciousness did not really exist because the people were not real and Jesus was showing what it WILL BE like when this earth is totally gone. Others say the people really existed. If they did they must have been 'conscious' BUT the bible says that the 'dead have no consciousness'. Back to square one.
---emg on 12/21/05


I think it is a parable
---alan8869_of_UK on 12/21/05


The topic of this forum is the rich man and Lazarus are conscious and speaking, yet the Bible says the dead have no consciousness. How do you resolve that?

Some believe the rich man and Lazarus is a parable. Others have argued against that, but have given no solution.

So the question remains, for those of you who believe the rich man and Lazarus is not a parable, how do you reconcile that with other places in the Bible that say the dead are not conscious?
---Jeffrey on 12/20/05


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Eloy; If you look you'll see that I said Martha's brother,not the one in the parable! You'll see I'm comparing "deaths" Both Lazerus's died.
---1st_cliff on 12/14/05


cliff, you're mixing two completely different cases, and two completely different Lazarus's in the Bible. The Lazarus in Abraham's bosom is not the same Lazarus that Jesus resurrected from the dead.
---Eloy on 12/14/05


Eloy; You don't understand the "object" of the parable so to you it's subjective! Why would Jesus state that it was an illustration when the whole story is "ficticious"? Jesus raised Lazerus (Martha's brother) to illustrate, death and resurrection! Did Lazerus say he was in paradise or heaven or Abraham's bosom? NO he was "dead",not alive in some other relm!
---1st_cliff on 12/13/05


cliff, the precedent is 1, by literally stating in the scripture that it is a parable; 2, by the immediate preceding discourse being also parabolic; or 3, the verbage delivers objectivism, rather than subjectivism. And none of these precedences appear. On the contrary, by disclosing the beggars name Jesus is narrating an actual account, and not an objective parable. Also, Jesus is not known to give names to idols in order to deceive people, that is something foolish people do and not any work of Jesus.
---Eloy on 12/13/05


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Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
---Ulrika on 12/12/05


Eloy; what it boils down to is that you base your belief on an "assumption", Assuming that NAMING a person makes it "real" All the Greek and Roman gods had names and they were figments of immagination! Where is the "precident" that shows once a person is named he/she is not an "illustration"?
---1st_cliff on 12/12/05


Leon:: The pun was excellent& I agree with you.
---Emcee on 12/12/05


John 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. 14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Deut. 31:16 And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold how shalt sleep with thy fathers;

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life , and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

I believe these verses are speaking of the soul.
---Ulrika on 12/12/05


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Mike: An obvious typo that should've read "2" Tim. 2:23-26 (Second Timothy, chapter two, verses 23 thru 26).
---Leon on 12/12/05


1st cliff, Luke 16:19-31 is not a parable, but a true account, because 1, the immediate preceding verse, verse 18 Jesus expounds the commandment of not committing adultery, and before that he is directly upbraiding the Pharisees in vs 14-17 for being hypocrites and breaking the Law; and 2, Jesus named the beggar Lazarus, and if it was a mere ficticious parable he would not have used a real name; and 3, the everlasting spirit of each one of us goes back to God who gave it as stated in both Testaments.
---Eloy on 12/12/05


Foul!!! Leon, there is no verse 23-26 in 1 Timothy 2.
---mike on 12/12/05


1st over the cliff: 1 Tim 2:23-26 :-)
---Leon on 12/12/05


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Gregg, if you read Luke 16 from verse 19 you will see that the Lazarus mentioned is not the man raised from the dead by Jesus. Whether this is a parable or Jesus telling of something that really happened to 2 real people is still being debated here but you'll learn from reading it regardless of whether you think it's a parable or not.
---M.P. on 12/12/05


There are 2 different Lazaruses, Gregg- the one was raised from the dead by Jesus- he was the brother of Mary & Martha, and definitely not a beggar. The one referred to in this blog is not that Lazarus.
---Ann5758 on 12/11/05


1-Abraham's bosom. 2-Paradise. Where is hell or death mentioned? Lazarus was the one raised from the dead. Jesus said, 'Lazarus sleeps. Come, let us go awaken him.' The rich man did not die to the world, he gained the world and lost his soul. Yes, the soul can die.
---gregg8944 on 12/11/05


Leon; How be it that you "prove" your statement , from scripture, that says anywhere if the bible that the soul is "immortal" If you can't then you've just spoken a lie!(I hate to use that word) The ball is in your court!
---1st_cliff on 12/11/05


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Pierre: 2 Tim 2:23-26. :-)
---Leon on 12/11/05


Emcee: See my comments to Pierre 12/10/05. Yes!--the soul of man is indeed immortal. No doubt here! However, there are some truth twisters on this blog who're blindly running towards & bent on taking as many as they can with them over a cliff.
---Leon on 12/11/05


Before Jesus died on the Cross, all spirit/souls went to either hell or Paradise to await His resurrection/ascension to also take captive those in captivity. Lazarus and Abraham being ones that ascented with Him. The Rich man stayed separated from them in hell and also did not ascend with Lazarus according to the Truth of Jesus' Word to them.
---Paula on 12/11/05


Eloy; The dead are only alive in a "parable" eccl.9.5 Even Elvis is alive "in the movies"
---1st_cliff on 12/11/05


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Johann: What was Lazerus "rewarded for?" What was the rich man "punished for"?
---1st_cliff on 12/11/05


Emcee; I don't think you intentionally try to misslead anyone but making the statement "the soul is immortal and never dies" is missleading because nowhwere from Gen to Rev. does the scriptures make that statement! The only place you'll find it is in the book of Mormon Alma 42.9! I don't think Catholics believe the Book of Mormon , do they?
---1st_cliff on 12/11/05


Ulrika, my pleasure; PIERRE, Jesus said the dead are conscious: "And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame." Luke 16:22,24.
---Eloy on 12/10/05


Leon % Co.
In other words Leon, in the texts you have selected to prove the immortality of the soul, the word "soul" means LIFE and in one instance it means ETERNAL LIFE!
Conl: The soul = a person = mortal
The soul = a person's life = can be lost!
---Pierre on 12/10/05


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LEON & Co who believe in the IMMORTALITY of the soul:
Read Mt 10:28 Here Jesus clearly teaches that the SOUL IS NOT IMMORTAL! It can and will be destroyed!But CAN THE SOUL EXIST APART FROM THE BODY? The answer is NO! But what says Mt. 16:25? The Greek word "psuche" has been translated "soul" in this text, but in 40 other texts it has been translated "LIFE" (psuche). Thus Jesus said:"Whosoever will loose his LIFE (psuche) for my sake, will find it!" TBC
---Pierre on 12/10/05


This parable disposes of two errors- that of those who denied the survival of the soul after death and, therefore, retribution in the next life; and that of those who interpreted material prosperity in this life as a reward for moral rectitude, and adversity as punishment. The parable shows that immediately after death, the soul is judged by God for all its acts-the "particular judgement"-and is rewarded or punished .
---Johann on 12/10/05


Leon& 1st Cliff the Soul is immortal, because it never dies it will live forever either enjoying everlasting happiness or eternal damination wisdom 3:1-4.---as you have lived so shall you reap.
---Emcee on 12/10/05


1st_Cliff: 2 Tim. 2:23-26.
---Leon on 12/10/05


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Leon; If your soul ceases to exist, then you've "forfieted" it (mat16.26 etc..) haven't you? hello!
---1st_cliff on 12/10/05


Eloy, thanks, for your concise and understandable answer, and references to back it up. It answers my question to, does the soul die.
---Ulrika on 12/10/05


Pierre: If what you say, "...THE SOUL CEASES TO EXIST" is true, then you should've been there to straighten out Jesus on the matter. He (the God-man) clearly believed the soul of mankind has substantial value beyond death (Mt. 16:26; Mk. 8:36; Lk. 9:25).

James, Jesus' step-brother, had it wrong also (?), i.e., Jas. 1:21; 5:19-20.
---Leon on 12/10/05


emg: When we find an apparent contradiction in the Bible, we should study as the Bible instructs: "For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:" (Isa 28:10). If we study throughout the Bible the state of consciousness in death, the preponderance of evidence supports a state of sleep. Even Jesus characterized it as such (John 11:11). The rich man and Lazarus, on the other hand, is obviously a parable - just a story.
---jerry6593 on 12/10/05


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Elder ; actually I have the same bible and info that you have, just reached a different conclusion than you: Look at the "time line", Christ had not yet been crucified, there was no accepting or denying Him then! Any how it's like I say, it had nothing to do with heaven, hell or money (literaly)
---1st_cliff on 12/9/05


Eloy cont.
3. (at death) the body and sould remain on the earth.
NOT TRUE: (at death) the body returns to the earth AND THE SOUL CEASES TO EXIST!
nb: THE SOUL does not exist in any other combination than: DIRT + BREATH OF LIFE = LIVING SOUL! IT IS not AN INDEPENDANT THIRD ELEMENT!
Study this subject carefully! P.
---Pierre on 12/9/05


Eloy: I wish you would tell the truth!! I declare the following statements to be UNTRUTHS until you prove me wrong from the Bible: 1. Each person is made up of a body... a spirit which is the breath AND A SOUL WHICH IS THE LIFE... NOT TRUE: Each person is made up of a body + (not A spirit but) breath which equals LIVING SOUL
2. At death, he spirit leaves the body AND SOUL...
NOT TRUE: At death, the spirit leaves the body AND THE SOUL CEASES TO EXIST!
TBC
---Pierre on 12/9/05


The soul is not the mind, and the soul is not the spirit, they are separate. Each person is made up of a body which is the building or flesh; a spirit which is the breath or aspiration; and a soul which is the life or anima. The soul can be living or dead. When one dies the spirit leaves the body and soul, and goes back to God. The body and soul remain behind on earth, until that time that the Lord will call for the dead to rise. (Mark 12:30; Acts 17:25; I Thessalonians 5:23; Hebrews 4:12).

Moderator - Please post your comments also in the new Spirit, Soul and Body blog. Thanks.
---Eloy on 12/9/05


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Pierre: If the shoe fits wear it. I was just quoting what Jesus said. Should He tone it down also so you, etc., can kick it up another notch? I don't think so!
---Leon on 12/9/05


Cliff maybe you have received some other gospel but my understanding of my Bible is that those who go to the place of torment, Hell or what ever you call it, go there because they did not accept Christ. Do you have information that is different? That wouldn't surprise me. On your comment about fish, I am sure the feeling is mutual, LOL.
---Elder on 12/9/05


Yes; a parable teaches a "spiritual truth" (dosen't mean the situations are literal") Strangely enough,this parable has nothing to do with heaven,hell or money,literally! I'd be happy to explain it to you,if you like!
---1st_cliff on 12/9/05


Do Heaven and Hell exist NOW or are they places that God is still preparing for AFTER the judgement?
---emg on 12/9/05


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Elder; Now you're "making up stuff" There's nowhere in that parable that says anything about him "not accepting Christ" is there? Neither did you explain what "righeousness" put Lazerus in Abraham's bosom.Did he accept Christ,or Scripture truth ? IT DOSEN'T SAY! By not understanding the "parable" you make up what you think it means. Besides I hate fish!(yuk)
---1st_cliff on 12/8/05


So a Parable teaches a spiritual truth. So if Luke is a parable what spiritual truth is it trying to teach.
People in Hell know what is going on that's what.
Does Elijah and Jesus have fingers in heaven Pierre?
---Elder on 12/8/05


Leon: Is it really necessary to call people with whom you disagree names? I don't think so! I suggest by the tone of your remark that the CN community say a prayrer or two to ask the Lord to soften your heart just a little!
---Pierre on 12/8/05


One thing the parable of the rich man and Lazarus shows is, riches do not save a person.
---Ulrika on 12/8/05


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The point of the parable of Lazarus and the rich man is Luke 16:31:

And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

As you well know, that is entirely true!

As for the dead, Jesus said the other Lazarus was asleep (Jn 11:11) which also agrees with Deu 31:16, Ecc 9:5, Ps 6:5, Acts 7:60,13:36, 1 Cor 11:30,15:6,18,51, 1 Thes 4:13-18,5:10, 2 Peter 3:4, etc.
---Jeffrey on 12/8/05


"Can you tell us why Jesus used parables?" Excellent point Elder. Out of Jesus' own mouth (Matthew 13: 10-17) He explains why (specifically in verses 13-16).

Obviously, what was true when Jesus explained it to His disciples is still true & is applicable to the spiritually blind, dull of hearing & intellectually ignorant scoffers of our day. It's so sad. Rather than fueling their endless debates, they need ceaseless prayer from the CN community.
---Leon on 12/8/05


Elder cont.
2. The great gulf described makes clear that there is no further redemption, once you have reached your final destination/condition. Our life choicess determine our eternal destiny.
3. The Jews were always asking for signs which God gave them before they would need another one. Now Jesus makes the point that to give them one more sign would not help, even as Lazaru's real resurrection did not help them!
But hopefully this explanation will help someone! P
---Pierre on 12/8/05


emg: Ecc 9:5-6 talks about persons, like us, who are yet flesh & blood (living in physical bodies) versus physically dead persons who's very conscious (aware) spirits/souls have departed their physical bodies. "The dead" physical body of deceased persons, being emptied of their eternally alive (conscious) spirit/soul is very dead (unaware). In short, Ecc 9:5-6 emphasises the weakness & limitations of the flesh man.

Hope this helps your understanding.
---Leon on 12/8/05


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Elder cont.
The parable describes the Jew'a viewpoint that death is passing through a valley of darkness, picturing salvation as fleeing to the security of Abraham's bosom and eternal loss going to destrucion.
Jesus told the story to teach 3 lessons, based on the Jews' belief that riches were a sign of God's favor and vice-versa:
1. Riches gained by greed/dishonesty are not signs of God's favor at all. TBC
---Pierre on 12/8/05


Elder cont. The best way to determine if this story is to be taken literally or not is found in the Q&A that follows:
1. Do/Will people actually have conversations between heaven and hell? NO!
2. Can/Will those in heaven see those burning in hell? NO!
3. Can/Will they hear their screams? NO!
4. Do/Will "souls" actually have fingers and tongues as described in the parabole? NO!
5. Could Abraham's bosom REALLY be large enough to contain all who go to hell? NO!
TBC
---Pierre on 12/8/05


OK Elder: I will try to help you. A parable is a literary form of speeech used to teach great moral principles and often using personification of objects and other literary devices to make the point. Because of these, we are not to take literally many of their features. EX: We do not have wool and four feet like sheep, neither are we made of metal like a silver coin! TBC
---Pierre on 12/8/05


The parable of the rich man and Lazarus illustrates Luke's concern with Jesus' attitude toward the rich and the poor. The reversal of the fates of the rich man and Lazarus is an illistration of the teachings of Jesus in Luke's "Sermon on the Plain" (Luke 6:20-21, 24-25).
---Fred_S. on 12/8/05


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OK Cliff you are good at explaining away Scripture so now answer the other question. If this is only a parable what is it trying to teach? The Bible explains why the rich man was in Hell. It was his rejection of Scripture Truth.
He failed to accept Christ. Do you know anyone like that?
Some like to trust in their riches, others their intellect.
Too bad some like to fish in shallow water when God said launch out into the deep. The deep things of God are hidden to shallow made up minds.
---Elder on 12/8/05


Mike, I did not say conSCIENCE I said conSCIOUSness (awareness). The verses I have been given regarding this are Ecclesiastes 9: 5 and 6. Maybe these have been misinterpreted but that is why I asked. I'd like a little insight, if possible, from those who know their bible better than I do.
---emg on 12/8/05


#3.Examine this story! They both died (symotaineously?) Rich man went to "hades" not gehenna (the fire) Heaven and hell were less than a hundred yards apart (conversation distance,without shouting) Rich man was clothed( does a spirit wear clothes?)he had eyes, mouth, fingers etc.. a "full"body? A body within a body with "duplicate" parts? To some this HAS to be literal to support their theory that the dead don't realy die!
---1st_cliff on 12/7/05


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