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Jesus Made Wine Or Grape Juice

At the wedding, did Jesus make grape juice or alcohol wine?

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 ---mima on 12/9/05
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BruceB, first of all, your verses are perfect. That thy might believe WHAT????

But, many OT passages symbolically refer to wine. Also in Revelation...( don't hurt the wine or the oil)...is not talking about Sweet Vino or Mazola!

Milk Honey etc all have their meaning...and Jesus is the bread of life too!!!

Isaiah 55

1Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, sound familiar??? and he that hath no money, come ye, buy, and eat, yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.
....
3Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live, and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.
---kathr4453 on 6/1/09


God designed the process of fermentation. Obviously, Jesus made wine. Any ten year old knows difference between grade juice and wine.
---Janze on 5/31/09


kathr,

Thanks for your comment.

Since I am prone to simplicity, I gotta go with John's own interpretation:

Joh 2:11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory, and his disciples believed on him.

In other words, Jesus' purpose of turning water into wine was to provide His disciples with belief, just as the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy, which is also for belief...

Joh 14:29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.

BTW: could ya point out, exactly, where Jesus told us (or His disciples), previous to this miracle, that the wine represents His blood?
---BruceB on 5/31/09


It is okay to consume wine in moderation,
however binging over substance leads to serious addiction and i truly belive that this is not permissable... because greed in itself is SIN. The Old Testament clearly states the use of wine in moderation, however excess and drinking leading to utter drunkenness leads to a man's distruction.
---yohan on 5/29/09


Would the wine that Jesus made in John 2 be rated at over 100 on a scale of 1-100. The wine to which all other wines are compared.
---Glenn on 5/28/09




BruceB,The beginning of Moses' miracles was turning water into blood, (Ex 7:20) and the beginning of Christ's miracles John 2:1-11 was turning water into wine, showing the difference between the law of Moses(only can bring DEATH) and the gospel of the Grace of Jesus Christ bringing LIFE. Please read John Chapter 1....and then go to Chapter 2!

Turning the water into Blood was a curse and showed God's Wrath. Turning water into wine, at the WEDDING feast, spiritually signifies the Covenant of GRACE.....Grace without legalism = unleaven AKA unfermented anything. (a little leaven RUINS the whole lump...teh leaven of teh Pharisees etc!)

Jesus already told us the wine represents the blood of Jesus...The Blood of the Covenant.
---kathr4453 on 5/27/09


Still waitin' on that "spiritually discerned" interpretation of John 2:1-11, kathr. Perhaps you're runnin' a tad low on "spirits".
---BruceB on 5/14/09


In the whole of the book, is there a more important lesson, then the withered fig tree?
Mat 21:21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea, it shall be done.
(Ye shall do this thing!)
Read Roman 2


Mat 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
Act 15:24
Act 18:15

Mat 7:2 (is this so hard to understand!)
May God Bless You
---TheSeg on 5/10/09


What can I say, kathr...

I'm just a spiritually-blind sinner, destined for the lake of fire.

I'm reminded of Dirty Harry (kathr) and the bank robber (BruceB) who's slumped wounded up against the wall:

kathr, waggin' a finger- "This is a 66-book Bible, the most powerful scripture ever written and will blow yer spiritual blindness clean off! So ya gotta ask yerself, Do I feel sanctified? Well? Do ya, sinner?"

BruceB, bloodied, fightin' off grabbin' the retort layin' handily close by, only to have kathr take it, turn & walk away- "kathr! I gots ta know!"

So, go ahead and pull that trigger, kathr. What is the 'spiritually discerned' interpretation of John 2:1-11... really!
---BruceB on 5/9/09


Jesus made wine just like the Bible says. He drank it too. If he didn't drink it, the Bible or someone at the wedding in Cana would have made a big deal about it. It was normal and customary to drink wine with food back in the day. John the Baptist, however, did not and it was mentioned that he did not. Why? Because it was UNUSUAL NOT TO DRINK wine.
---Vicki on 5/9/09




Absolutely BruceB. But you look at the literal interpretation...I look on the spiritual. This story has MORE than just Jesus making wine for a wedding. Everything Jesus did had a deeper spiritual meaning.

He also tells us too, we don't sew an old cloth on a new Garment. I do suppose you believe Jesus came to give sewing lessons??

You don't put new wine in old wine skins...Jesus again, You saying came to tell us how to keep wine??
Or giving gardening lessons about trees with out fruit etc...

The natural mind cannot understand the things of the Spirit, because they are spiritually discerned.
---kathr4453 on 5/9/09


Jesus did make wine. Drinking alcohol is not a sin, getting drunk is. People can make responsible choices, and if they choose to get drunk than that has nothing to do with free will. Everything in moderation people. Paul urged Timothy to drink wine. Drinking wine and beer in moderation has its health benefits. It's ok to have a drink here and there, show me in the bible where it says to not have 1 drop of alcohol. I guess people who preach this would be hypocrites if they drink coffee, since caffeine is a drug known as a central nervous system stimulant, and alcohol is a central nervous system depressant.
---Jasmine on 5/8/09


Whatever floats yer boat, kathr. I'm just glad I can rely on the inerrant truth of the Bible. It makes life so much simpler, don't ya think?
---BruceB on 5/8/09


Well BruceB, if the ONLY wine LEFT to drink was what Jesus made, then regardless of whether he SERVED it or not.....He would be responsible for any outcome of drunkenness.

Unless of coarse there was an option more wine somewhere else, and as we see, there was no other option. If there had been, no one would have asked Jesus to make it to begin with.

So YOU have made MY point..Thank You, that Jesus did not make fermented wine as the ONLY wine that could be served to these people already.....drunken!!!

You TOO clarified My point Again...Thank You, by saying nakedness as only meaning one thing....
---kathr4453 on 5/8/09


kathr,

"Jesus DID NOT serve strong drink to his neighbor."

Your quite right. He merely made the wine--the host served it. Furthermore, strong drink (Greek: sikera- an intoxicating beverage, different from wine, it was an artificial product, made of a mixture of sweet ingredients, whether derived from grain and vegetables, or from the juice of fruits (dates), or a decoction of honey)... is not wine.

"You see BruceB, these verses have nothing to do with anyone being drunk first."

Right, again, kathr. Personally, I think you've done an excellent job of making my point. Ya can't mix and match verses (or even terms), willy-nilly... because the "context" is destroyed. LOL.
---BruceB on 5/7/09


Isaiah 47:3 Thy nakedness shall be uncovered, yea, thy shame shall be seen: I will take vengeance, and I will not meet thee as a man.

Revelation 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich, and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear, and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.


You see BruceB, these verses have nothing to do with anyone being drunk first. God WILL, without a drop of fermented wine expose all false prophets, teachers, etc!!!



---kathr4453 on 5/7/09


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SOOOO, kathr... did He disobey Habbukuk?
---BruceB on 5/7/09


BruceB...Jesus DID NOT serve strong drink to his neighbor. He did not disobey Habbakuk. No one served Noah anything, but did get drunk and naked.

Man having free will to get drunk would lead to various sorts of sin.

I wouldn't give anyone alcohol to drink, knowing if they got in a car and drove it and killed someone,( there are all sorts of Nakedness: inhibitions, lewdness, orgy, etc, etc, is another word for nakedness HERE) I would be responsible.

So you actually think it means its alright to get someone drunk, just so long as your motive isnt to get him naked? That's funny!

Have a Nice Day BruceB....
---kathr4453 on 5/7/09




It:
Was a curse to not be able to drink it, Isaiah 1:22, 24:11, Micah 6:15.
Was used in offerings, Exodus 29:40, Numbers 15:4-10.
Had medicinal uses, 2Samuel 16:2, Proverbs 31:6, 1Timothy 5:23.
Made glad, Psalm 104:15, Ecclesiastes 10:19.
Was a blessing, Genesis 14:18, Proverbs 9:2, 5, Ecclesiastes 9:7, Isaiah 25:6, 55:1, Amos 9:14, Zechariah 10:7, Matthew 26:29, John 2:3-11, 1Corinthians 10:16.
Drunkenness forbidden: Esther 1:10-12, Proverbs 20:1, 23:29-35, 31:4-5, Isaiah 5:11, 28:7, Hosea 4:11, Joel 3:3, Amos 6:6, Luke 21:34, Romans 13:13, Ephesians 5:18, 1Timothy 3:8, Titus 1:7.
Alcohol was forbidden Priests entering the tabernacle, Leviticus 10:9, and Nazarites, Numbers 6:3.

---Glenn on 5/7/09


kathr,

The point of providing the wine was "that thou mayest look on their nakedness!" Did Jesus do this?

Yeah: just drop that part off to make the verse fit your personal requirements. That you're supplanting simple translation with "religious" interpretation, in an attempt to justify your own "moral" values, is obvious.

I provided you with the literal, not my "moral" interpretation. Believe whatever you wish: but don't put words into my keyboard.

That aside, if you can avoid any "context" from all those other verses, then why can't I apply context? Huh? Did ya know, your practice was a favorite of the Pharisee?

SOOOO, kathr... did He disobey Habbukuk?
---BruceB on 5/7/09


Isaiah 28:7
But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way, the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink, they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.

Habakkuk 2:15
Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness!



SOOOOO BruceB, You say Jesus who is GOD, who is the WORD of God DISOBEYED Habakkuk 2:15?

Shame shame on you....but those who accuse Jesus of this are easily identified in Isaiah 28:7!!!

Not I!!!!!
---kathr4453 on 5/7/09


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kathr,

"AND you say..."

Don't point at me, Kid. I didn't write it: John did. I simply recited the verse and definition of the Greek words used, which state they were intoxicated.

Did Jesus make alcoholic wine or did he not? If one accepts the words written by John as true, it would be virtually impossible to draw any other conclusion than... yes, He did.

And yet another example: Lu 7:34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking, and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

winebibber = Greek - oinopotes: given to wine, a wino.

Why would an obvious "negative" connotation be applied to a drinker of "new" wine?
---BruceB on 5/6/09


***Joh 2:10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine, and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.***


And were only the men drunk? Were woman and children drunk too?

Gee, if that were my family, not only would the police be on call, the ambulance service would be there too!

AND you say, Jesus made MORE intoxicating wine contributing to the drunken state of men?

I wonder how many family fights there were that night! Or gossipy/catty woman who's tongues were loosed!
---kathr4453 on 5/6/09


---TheSeg I have no idea whether or not your answer is correct but you can rest assured that a drowning man will grab at any straw. Therefore I will defend your answer in every manner possible. Ha Ha
---mima on 5/6/09


A glutton to me is not someone who eats too much.
A glutton to me is someone who will not share what is freely given to him.
Someone who will not give another even a crumb that falls from the table.
Not before asking for some kind of payment.

A person, who eats too much, will normally give you a portion you can not handle by yourself.
Much like Christ

I love this line
Having eyes and ears
Do you believe, I truly love you.
God bless you all
---TheSeg on 5/5/09


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TheSeg,
You are not clear in your address to me so, I have no idea what you are talking about. If I led you to that, it was my intention to point, being gluttony was mentioned below, that it was one of a set of serious charges brought against of all people a young man, a son at that and by his parents in a forum that if convicted would had led rightaway to his death by stoning!
---Nana on 5/4/09


Fermented wine.
---frances008 on 5/4/09


Oh dear!!! Would be safe to say!

So, would it be just for you or me to judge them, to condemn them.
Can you or I, bring them to the feet of Christ? Right, we cant!
But, I will let you cast them out, all I can do is take them in, and trust in the lord.
To show me why, I feel my sin are greater then their. Can it be because, I believing in him, the way I do, can not stop sinning?
So now, who has the greater sin? One who see, one who blind but see, one who blind?
Do you see a difference?

Lots daughters got him drunk so they could seduce him and conceive!!
So, you see its wine
---TheSeg on 5/4/09


It's obvious from the context of the passage, John 2:7-11 (the subject of the posting), wherein we find the governor of the feast stating...

Joh 2:10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine, and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

Well Drunk = Greek - methuO: to be drunken, intoxicated (from methe: drunkeness)...

Jesus did not make "new" wine. Not according to John's recording of the words of the governor of the feast. (Although, I guess, Jesus could have conned 'em all: eh?)

Context is the key to understanding what is written: and someone's always gonna argue against alcohol--right or wrong.
---BruceB on 5/4/09


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Mar 7:15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.

But you would have me believe this is wrong making him a liar.
Being drunk is not a sin, everyone knows he is a fool!
Try to stop making sin where there are none.

Would Lot not have known his own daughters?
Gen 9:21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken!

---TheSeg on 4/20/09


The Seg, so being a Crack Head, Heroin Addict, or glue sniffer wouldn't be sin either based on your presupposition??? Oh dear!!!

Lots daughters got him drunk so they could seduce him and conceive!!
---kathr4453 on 5/4/09


The Greek word "OINOS" which is translated wine in the Bible can be either fermented or unfermented wine. We see in Isaiah 65:8, "Thus says the Lord, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one says do not destroy it". What is the alcoholic content in the new wine in a cluster of grapes? Zero. There is no alcohol in a cluster of grapes. Also God says in Isaiah 16:10, "No treaders will tread out wine in the presses, I have made their shouting cease." Again we know the alcoholic content of the new wine that is being treaded out in the grape presses is zero. This wine is only fresh grape juice.
---kathr4453 on 5/4/09


Jesus made wine, 'cause that's what the Bible says He did. Besides, the governor of the feast would have known if it was grape juice: but he knew it was wine.

Now, how long do you think you can keep "grape juice" around without pasturization and refrigeration, before ya get wine out of it?

People have been drinkin' wine since the first grape juice was crushed and sat for a few weeks. Some drink it to excess, regularly: some don't. That's the key element: wine worship.

Wedding wine? Some rather fitting verses:

Pr 31:6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.
7 Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.
---BruceB on 5/3/09


Kathr, if you had read 1 Cor. 5:13 you would understand that Paul never intended himself or the church to be judges of unbelievers outside the church, but to judge those inside (1 Peter 4:17). Those on the outside are for God to judge and believers to evangelize. Those who sin on the inside, the church is to put out. verse 13 which is quoted from Deut. 17:7.
Concerning your statement with my name, God does not make anyone sin. They sin because they love to sin. They are born with a sin nature. The flesh has not been redeemed. That God knows every step is correct. He knows whether they will die because of been too fat, or because they don't eat right. God's foreordination renders the events certain.
---MarkV. on 5/3/09


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Nana
If you plant a garden and not tend to it from the beginning, what will happen?
Now you will need help, to fix it. But, it will never be the way it could have been.

I believe the teaching here, is for the people, not the garden.
Deuteronomy 21:19
---TheSeg on 5/2/09


Deuteronomy 21:19: "Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place, And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice, he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you, and all Israel shall hear, and fear."

I guess 'There be hell to pay' if the GLUTTON is also stubborn, rebellious, disobedient and a drunkard?
---Nana on 5/1/09


Kathr, context is the carping criticism of those who chose to drink any wine.

There is no thread maligning gluttons!

Why are some quick to criticize those who smoke or drink but tolerant of gluttony?

Proverbs 23:20,21 'Do not join those who drink too much wine, or gorge themselves on meat. For drunkards and gluttons become poor'-no criticism of those who eat and drink moderately.

Also Prov. 28:7 '..a companion of gluttons disgraces his father', prov. 23:2

See also Matt. 11:19, and Luke 7:34, Jesus came eating and drinking, but was falsely accused of gluttony and drunkeness!

One of the gifts of the Spirit is self-control(Gal. 5:22)see also 2 Pe. 1:5-7, 2 Tim. 3:1-9. Gluttony is the opposite of this!
---Warwick on 5/2/09


Jesus made wine, John 2:3-11, "and his disciples believed on him." They would have used an alcoholic beverage because a wedding was a religious celebration. In verse 10, drunk means to be mildly intoxicated as there are many verses that prohibit drunkenness.
Although, Romans 14:1-15:7 and 1Corinthians 8:3-13 predominately concerning meat sacrificed to Idols, and religious customs, we are to consider our weaker brother.
Wine: H3196 yayin, G3631 oinos.
---Glenn on 5/1/09


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Warwick, carefully read these verses and tell me where a glutton is kept out of heaven or even mentioned.

God LOVES all sizes..all Colors, male and female. MarkV would tell you God predestined gluttons to be exactly that...

1 Corinthians 5:11
But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner, with such an one no not to eat.

I love the last line here...Doesn't say Don't OVER EAT with them!
1 Corinthians 6:10
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
---kathr4453 on 5/1/09


Wine or juice is not the problem, was a miracle!

The problem become if drinking alcohol is a sin or can it defile the body.
A lot of you say, yes it is or yes it can! My lord told me!

Mar 7:15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.

But you would have me believe this is wrong making him a liar.
Being drunk is not a sin, everyone knows he is a fool!
Try to stop making sin where there are none.

Would Lot not have known his own daughters?
Gen 9:21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken!

---TheSeg on 4/20/09


You have gone quiet Kathr!

So Kathr should we be just as critical of gluttons (those who eat too much) as some here are of Drunkards (those who drink too much)?
---Warwick on 4/17/09

What does Scripture say?
---Warwick on 4/20/09


Why not!
Mat 11:18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.

Mat 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.
---TheSeg on 4/18/09


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---Warwick with this statement:
you have quit preaching and gone to meddling. As a person that is guilty of gluttony I am somewhat displeased with your posting!
---mima on 4/18/09


I believe when the Bible says wine it means wine, not fruitjuice as some pastors would have us believe. Also, Paul advises Timothy, I believe, to take a little wine for his health. If it was fruitjuice would he say just 'a little'. I doubt it.
---frances008 on 4/18/09


So Kathr should we be just as critical of gluttons (those who eat too much) as some here are of Drunkards (those who drink too much)?
---Warwick on 4/17/09


Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils,
Speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their conscience seared with a hot iron,
Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.
---TheSeg on 4/17/09


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Fermentation is leaven.

Now Jesus first miracle and the wedding, wine etc, has a deeper more symbolic meaning then Jesus just making wine for a wedding.


The Wine here represents:
The New Covenant,
GRACE
Jesus blood

The New Covenant, Grace etc, (no law) is Unleavened!

We know this fact concerning unleavened bread...it also applies to the wine HERE as well.

Jesus does not contradict Himself in anything He does, or what he teaches.

The question isn't about YOU drinking fermented wine.

Let's stick to the question!
---kathr4453 on 4/16/09


Mima ... the Bible tells us Jesus made wine.

Will you report the Bible to your Southern Baptist friends?
---alan8566_of_UK on 4/15/09


Do we take these verses LITERALLY? Is Jesus really concerned with Wine and Mazola Oil?
More concerned than with human life? OR is it possible many scriptures dealing with wine has a deeper meaning?


Revelation 6:6
And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny, and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.


Jesus first miracle turning water into WINE, is in contrast to Moses first miracle..turning water into Blood! One, Judgement...the other, Salvation.
---kathr4453 on 4/15/09


Kathr some people are overweight because of genetic reasons. However the evidence is that they are a small minority.

I am sure you will therefore accept they are not the 'gluttons' of scripture so your point is irrelevant.

'There are also very poor Christians as well' Are these poor people 'gluttons' Kathr? Of course not. So what is your point. Children with swollen bellies? Are they 'gluttons'?

My point, and I think in reality that you get it, is that in Scripture, alongside the command not to be drunkards, is also the command not to be gluttons. However I see legalistic fervour here, directed towards moderate drinkers, as though they were drunks! Conversely I hear no similar criticism of gluttons.

Why?
---Warwick on 4/15/09


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Warwick, many obese people are that way because of genetic problems, diabetes, etc. This is due to the fallen nature of sin upon mankind.

There are also very poor Christians as well, who can only afford Macarini/Cheese. Is poverty a sin? as well as extremely impoverished Christians who's little bellies are so swolen ....some would call that obese??? Is that a sin?

Many are genetically allergic to alcohol? The allergy is called alcoholism!!! Even a teaspoon can set off a horrible allergic reaction!!!


We also KNOW when children begin to drink alcohol at an early age, 95% become alcoholic.

Where does God encourage children to drink wine....if you say it's all fermented?
---kathr4453 on 4/15/09


fermented wine.
---Eloy on 4/15/09

He made wine.
---Shirley on 4/14/09


Well Shirley and Eloy I have no choice but to report you to my Southern Baptist friends who certainly would never accept your statements.
---mima on 4/15/09


fermented wine.
---Eloy on 4/15/09


Kathr I asked you a question which refers to the fact that the condemnation of drunkeness (not drinking) often comes along with the condemnation of gluttony. As drinking is not forbidden or condemned neither is eating obviously.

The question: 'We are surrounded by grossly obese Christians who only get that way by a sedentry lifestyle and excessive eating of the wrong food.

Do you condemn their behaviour too?'

How about an answer?
---Warwick on 4/14/09


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He made wine.
---Shirley on 4/14/09


Since we were not there, we will never know until we see him face to face and can ask. We can only speculate.

The Greek word oinos was used for the juice of grapes in general, and the same word for both unfermented and fermented wine applies.

I do think if our esteemed Bible translators understood it to be juice, they would have said juice, but then again the Greek word most closely translated is wine, so that is what we have to go by.

I for one am not about to cause any church splits over the issue.
---obewan on 4/14/09


Warwick. here's the verse YOU took out of Context. It's not a one liner here, but a continued thought.

4It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine, nor for princes strong drink: 5Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted.

6Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. 7Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.

( Not the advise one would give a SAVED person) 8Open thy mouth for the dumb in the cause of all such as are appointed to destruction.


Alan, The question, "did Jesus make fermented wine at the wedding"? Answer: NO!
---kathr4453 on 4/14/09


Kathr where I go for solace isn't the point. The point is God speaks about wine positively at Proverbs 31:6 and elsewhere.

Secondly when I talk of having a drink of wine you write about abuse, and headaches! Last night we had a very pleasant family dinner. I had wine, lovely, with no abuse or headache to be seen.

Most in the anti-Wine brigade cannot separate having a drink from drunkeness. God can- drink but not be drunk, also eat but not be gluttons. How is it gluttony gets little bad press here, when God equates it with drunkeness?

We are surrounded by grossly obese Christians who only get that way by a sedentry lifestyle and excessive eating of the wrong food.

Do you condemn their behaviour too?
---Warwick on 4/9/09


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Kathr ... You used the wrong argument, for indeed, Paul did not specifically say we could drink wine or eat brocolli (which I love) but he did not forbid either.
Your arguments about the evils of wine relate to its misuse.
Not everyone who driunks a glass of wine with a meal goes on to get plastered, or go inot a detox unit.
You appear to deny that there can be responsible drinkers. You can kill yourself with carrot juice too!!
---alan8566_of_UK on 4/8/09


Warwick, not a legalist here.

Can we take a look at this verse in light of our life In Christ.

When you need cheering up,or your heart is heavy,where do you go? To the Lord or to a bottle?

I would contend, as I have been around those who abuse alcohol for the reasons one cannot deal with LIFE..that if one were to only take a sip of wine, not affecting one's state physically or emotionally HA!...in other words, not even a smidge drunk.....what on earth will drinking accomplish?

Drinking to forget any pain ...The heavy heart will be there in the morning with a headache!

Life is painful folks....Drink the waters of LIFE in Christ!!!! He ALONE will lift your heart!
---kathr4453 on 4/8/09


***"My research shows that grape juice is a modern product, said to be the invention of Thomas Bramwell Welch in 1869. He pasteurized the juice to stop it fermenting-forming alcohol. If not pasteurized the crushed grape juice begins fermenting immediately, producing alcohol."***

Actually that is not true. If you do any research you will see IN THE olden days BC even..they BOILED the Grapes, making it a thick honey consistancy and sealed pots with oil on top, kept it in caves to keep it cool,to keep it from fermenting. Even the Gentiles did this, as I reasarched and posted.

AND Jesus didn't work with Grapes in the first place.
---kathr4453 on 4/8/09


>"I still say it was Wine though, not Grapejuice."

The context tells you that it wasn't wine. It was noted to the host that he had saved the best till last--best for them was the freshest juice.
---djconklin on 4/8/09


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In Timothy 3:3 bishops should be 'not given to much wine.'-Greek-'not an excessive drinker.' Now if the anti-wine brigade are correct Bishops had to be careful not to drink much juice! Gotta watch juice, gotta kick like a fly.

Applying logic to Scripture you will see 'not be given to much grape juice', is a non sequitur. Why not drink lots of grape juice? But if we think wine, the real stuff, Paul makes sense-otherwise his comments are nonsensical-inspired nonsense?

Don't let me encourage anyone to drink but stop being non-Scriptural legalists.

Proverbs 31:6 "Give wine to those of heavy hearts.' Give grape juice to those who need cheering up? That would really help!
---Warwick on 4/7/09


---Warwick if your research was sent to Pat Robertson you would destroy his belief in grape juice. Along with many others also. I have been told some very very strange stories about how he(Pat Robertson) absolutely insist on wine at the Last Supper being non-alcoholic!!!!
---mima on 4/7/09


Who cares(?), Does it really change how you feel about the Gospel or your Faith, even If it was just Grapejuice OR if it was Wine?

It was a miricle either way and that is the moral of that passage.

I still say it was Wine though, not Grapejuice.

The guest statement wouldn't make since IF it was Grapejuice...
YLBD
---Duane_Dudley_Martin_Jr. on 4/7/09


Alan MY reasoning is faulty?????

With Alcohol, every buzz, you destroy 10 thousand brain cells. Whhtt. Gone. Brain cells don't undergo mitosis. When they're gone, they're gone.


Are we not the temple of the Holy Spirit...Our bodies included?

Sorry Alan, Broccoli does not destroy the mind..the brain..alcohol does.

Broccoli doesn't destroy families....alcohol does.

No laws against eating broccoli and driving.

Never heard of anyone sent to a Sanatorium for Broccoli abuse!

Satan just loves the idea you don't care if you diminish your minds.


Alcohol is a DRUG!!!!! A depressant. No Vitamin content at all!

Broccoli however is rich in BRAIN FOOD!
---kathr4453 on 4/7/09


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This is so dumb!
Mat 9:17 why would grape juice break bottles
Mar 15:23 why did he not drink it
Luk 1:15 why would it be associated with strong drink
Luk 5:39 this is clear even today
Luk 7:34 and a winebibber a Drunk! Does it sound like a guy who like grape juice?
Act 2:13 - mocking said, (full of grape juice?) makes no sense
On and on!

Now the truth, if your brother drinks wine in front of you.
And you are offended, he has sin! Rom 14:21
And you are offended, you have sin. Mat 18:35
He's Great!

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice!
Joh 16:25
---TheSeg on 4/7/09


it was grapejuice that after fermented it was wine, but not as strong as today's wine.Originally the taste of their grapejuice/wine was as strong to them as wine is to us today.
---emma on 4/7/09


"My research shows that grape juice is a modern product, said to be the invention of Thomas Bramwell Welch in 1869. He pasteurized the juice to stop it fermenting-forming alcohol. If not pasteurized the crushed grape juice begins fermenting immediately, producing alcohol."

Columella in the 1st century wrote "On Agriculture and Trees" in which he described various methods to preserve unfermented grape juice, etc..
---djconklin on 4/7/09


>"DJ, you evade, or miss the point. Drunkeness comes only from consuming too much alcohol. No other way."

Since the question was what did the word "oinos" mean I didn't evade or miss any point.
---dave on 4/7/09


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Kathr ... Once agaain your logic is faulty.

Paul did not authorise the use of wine for other purposes. Maybe because he accepted that wine was normally drunk with meals, & there was no need to say so. The uses he mentioned were special and extra.

Did Paul authorise the eating of broccoli, or of bananas? So does that mean we should not eat them?

And you are factually wrong when you say "Protestants never drank wine at communion"
---alan8566_of_UK on 4/6/09


>"DJ, you evade, or miss the point. Drunkeness comes only from consuming too much alcohol. No other way."

Since the question was what does the word "oinos" mean, I obviously didn't evade or miss the point.

How much alcohol is too much? On Oprah once, they showed how even one glass of wine was too much.

You are to love God with all your mind--kind of hard to do that when the alcohol kills the brain cells.
---djconklin on 4/6/09


"My research shows that grape juice is a modern product, said to be the invention of Thomas Bramwell Welch in 1869. He pasteurized the juice to stop it fermenting-forming alcohol. If not pasteurized the crushed grape juice begins fermenting immediately, producing alcohol."

In the 1st century A.D. Columella wrote "On Agriculture and Trees" (see Amazon). He describes the methods of how people preserved unfermented grape juice, etc. One method: dried for one day in the shade, then vinegar & must [are] boiled down to 1/2 to 1/3 its original vol. poured into a vessel with some salt (to kill any worms). Or, cut the branch sealing the cut w/ pitch, mix w/ dry chaff & the grapes remain green for a year.
---djconklin on 4/6/09


Kathr we can drink wine but are commanded not to become drunk. From experience the individual knows what 'drunk' is and we are given the freedom to be moderate or excessive. Judges 9:13 does say wine cheers, which means it affects us positively, in moderation.

Conversely we are commanded not to lie, steal, commit adultery etc. Are we able to do them in moderation,or are they totally forbidden? We are not forbidden to drink wine.

Jesus was fully God (see Heb.1), for example. Also fully man, (Heb. 2:14-18). He did drink alcoholic wine but has given us the example of moderation.

Do you think He did not have a real body, with real human weaknesses. Did He become tired, annoyed, and hungry? Of course He did.
---Warwick on 4/6/09


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***Jesus is not a king but King, fully God and fully man. Tempted in all things, but who did not sin. He shows us an example, being human but not given to excess, eating but not a glutton, drinking but not a drunk.***

Warwick...yes, Jesus is KING of KINGS . Yet you seem to think his HUMANITY is like ours...being human not given to excess???

Warwick...when exactly is one drunk? 1% intoxicated...5%, maybe 10%. Just when you begin to feel a BUZ?


Protestants never drank wine at communion...This is a Catholic thing...and one Calvinism obviously KEPT.....along with Ash Wednesday!

I'l bet statistics will show there are more Alcoholics in the RCC than any other.
---kathr4453 on 4/6/09


cont please...

1Tim 5:23--"Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities."

This was written to Timothy not to the Church. Timothy had a stomach problem that drinking wine as a medicine was acceptable. This is hardly a scripture to use for the right to drink wine at meals or in times of social fellowship.

He was also told to use wine for his infirmities.

The good Samaritan poured wine into the wounds of the Jew who fell among thieves. These wounds were infirmities.

One thing is here noted: Paul did not authorize use of wine for any other purpose.
---kathr4453 on 4/6/09


DJ, you evade, or miss the point. Drunkeness comes only from consuming too much alcohol. No other way.

Therefore the apostle/s command not to get drunk on wine was meaningless if 'wine' was non-alcoholic. The idea that some was alcoholic, and some was non-Alcoholic seems nonsensical. At any rate we are not told to abstain from alcoholic wine, but not to get drunk on it.

My research shows that grape juice is a modern product, said to be the invention of Thomas Bramwell Welch in 1869. He pasteurized the juice to stop it fermenting-forming alcohol. If not pasteurized the crushed grape juice begins fermenting immediately, producing alcohol.

There is no mention in Scripture of a wine which did not contain alcohol.
---Warwick on 4/6/09


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