Jesus Made Wine Or Grape Juice
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In regards to the wedding feast at Cana, it seems to me that this was not a 'religious' occasion, and therefor the guests were all there to have a good time. And anyway, what do you think they would have done if they were all given 'grape juice' instead of real wine?
I think you would have had quite a row on your hands. |
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---MLB on 5/15/08 |
SamtheMan:
Even if 'oinos' and 'yayin' could sometimes mean fermented wine and at other times mean unfermented grape juice, asserting that it MUST mean unfermented grape juice in some cases (based not on contextual evidence) is imposing your own theological bias into a passage, rather than learning what the passage actually says.
You might say that the "fermented-only" school of thought does this, but your "unfermented-only" school of thought does exactly the same thing. |
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---StrongAxe on 4/24/08 |
Samtheman, there is no force to your argument. I have given you Biblical dictionary meanings of the words and all you say is that I am wrong.
I am not wrong, and a little research will show you the truth. There is no Biblical reason why Jesus, the apostles or any of us should not drink wine in moderation. Scripture speaks against drunkeness and gluttony which are obviously different to eating and drinking.
Do not force your non-Biblical ideas upon others. |
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---Warwick on 4/24/08 |
Look, water: Now look, wine! It must be God! |
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---Eloy on 4/24/08 |
Warwick you are simply wrong in the Greek definitions you wish to force upon us.
With all the Spiritual purity of Christ why so many insist He be a winebibber is mind boggling.
Well not exactly... "The Carnal Mind is emnity with God"
You all have been warned. The Consequences of alcohol useage will you reap.
Then you will be reminded of this discussion. |
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---SamtheMan on 4/24/08 |
Samtheman a little research shows the OT word for wine 'yah-yin' means the fermented alcoholic beverage. It was yah-yin upon which Noah sinfully became drunk. It was this same yah-yin God ordained to be used for drink offerings.
In the NT the Greek word is 'on-yos'which once again is alcoholic wine. Grape juice is 'chymos staflis.'
I would never attempt to encourage you to drink against your convictions but please leave others to use Scripture as their authority and decide for themselves. |
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---Warwick on 4/23/08 |
Mima, I will accept the "non drinkers" idea when they confess that eating is a sin. Excessive eating is also bad but regular eating is in order. Drinking wine is NOT prohibited in the BIble - over drinking is.
I believe in logic and not in fanaticism. |
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---Caring on 4/23/08 |
Allen the word "wine" refers to both juice and fermented product and many here confuse the two like they confuse Christs Blood as being anything but pure and unleavened. |
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---SamtheMan on 4/23/08 |
Mima:
Our job is to speak the truth. Preferably in love, but even so, if some people find the truth upsetting, that's their problem, not ours. |
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---StrongAxe on 4/23/08 |
The Scriptures never say that Jesus Drank Alcohol. He refused even the Sour Wine. |
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---SamtheMan on 4/23/08 |
But Mima, how can you show that Caring is incorrect?
It is OK to oppose drinking alcohol, but please do it on personal grounds, and not try to twist scripture to make it prohibit alcohol and tell lies about Jesus. |
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---alan_of_UK on 4/23/08 |
"Jesus drank actual wine and wine is not prohibited. Excessive drinking is.
---Caring on 4/23/08" Caring this truthful statement is very upsetting to those who absolutely positively oppose drinking wine in any quantity or in any manner!!! |
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---Mima on 4/23/08 |
All Jewish suppers include wine. Jesus drank actual wine and wine is not prohibited. Excessive drinking is. |
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---Caring on 4/23/08 |
Warwick ... Both alcohol in excess, and food in excess, and indeed smoking are addictive, and can damage our bodies.
In addition alcohol in excess can be mind altering.
It is fear (and perhaps experience) of this that makes some here be such harsh opponents of alcohol.
And it because of that that the Bible warns agaisnt excessive alcohol consumption gluttony and smoking are addictive |
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---alan_of_UK on 4/23/08 |
Warwick:
I think that one reason you read and hear so little about gluttony in the Church (at least in America) is because America has one of the highest incidences of obesity in the world.
If the church preached against it, it would leave a very large percentage of thier congregations condemned.
It's quite popular to preach about sins that you aren't personally guilty of (or tempted by), but much harder to preach about sins that hit much closer to home. |
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---StrongAxe on 4/22/08 |
He made the finest wine, He saved the best for last.
The last shall be first, and the first shall be last. |
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---lisa on 4/22/08 |
Samtheman my comment about the impossibility of getting drunk on grape juice was offered in opposition to those who say the word wine in Scripture refers to grape juice. This obviously makes no sense as we are told not to be drunk on wine therefore wine in scripture is an alcohoic drink.
Scripture tells us He would prefer we not be drunks or gluttons but there seems to be precious little written here against the popular sport of gluttony! Why? |
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---Warwick on 4/22/08 |
AllenUK: Said **He was not afraid to meet and witness to who habitually drank wine to excess** Amen. And that is what I am doing and just because I am witnessing does not mean that I nor Jesus are Alcohol Consumers even though some will say we are. We drink New Wine and listen to Biblical Counsel against fermented product. Christ was the inspiration by the Spirit to the Prophets who spoke against fermented drink. |
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---SamtheMan on 4/22/08 |
Mima::FYI it was top notch wine best in the market as attested by the wine steward who sampled it.But yiou missed the point what ever Jesus did he Improved whether it was a product or a person that WAS the lesson we are called to witness and FOLLOW.MOVE up improve "Be perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect."Jesus did everything with a reason. |
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---Emcee on 4/21/08 |
Lisa .... "Alan and Emcee, almost identical stories. Neato"
Yes, Lisa.
Emcee & I sometimes argue vigorously because we have very different views on certain things.
But on some things we agree.
And clearly birds in both my UK and his Canada can get drunk on berries!!
And even though we often disagree, we never insult each other! |
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---alan_of_UK on 4/21/08 |
Do you think that every time Jesus drank wine, it was only unfermented grape juice which he had just miraclulously made (it is not possible to keep grape juice without it fermenting naturally with its own yeast or yeasts from the air, unless fully sealed, which would not have been possible then)
Jesus was falsely accused of being a wine-bibber, not because He drank wine, but because He was not afraid to meet and witness to who habitually drank wine to excess. |
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---alan_of_UK on 4/21/08 |
Thats right WARWICK you "cant get drunk on Grape Juice." Thanks for clarifying that. |
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---SamtheMan on 4/21/08 |
Warwick, good point and good advice for all of us. Thank you. |
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---amicusdei on 4/19/08 |
I do not understand this morbid fascination some here have with wine. Scripture doesn't tell us not to drink wine but says not to be drunk on it-hard to get drunk on grape juice folks. It also tells us not to be gluttons regarding food, so isn't the instruction about moderation, not about abstinence?
Maybe there are more important things to ponder rather than pointing your fingers at people who like wine but are not drunks? |
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---Warwick on 4/18/08 |
Eloy:
I LOVE your comment about soda. It underscores how so many people strain at gnats and swallow camels - wasting so much energy majoring in minors, that they overlook more important issues. |
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---StrongAxe on 4/18/08 |
Frank, no gnats here...just new fruit from the vine
Mat26:28 "For this is My Blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this FRUIT OF THE VINE, until that day when I drink it NEW with you in my Father's kingdom" |
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---SamtheMan on 4/18/08 |
Samtheman,
Actually I wasn't saying either as to me that's straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel, so to speak.
What is important is the word made flesh and bringing forth a new testament in his blood.
Sorry if you missed the point. I didn't mean to mislead. Since I don't drink I really don't care.
Frank |
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---Frank on 4/18/08 |
Frank: They accused Jesus of having a Demon... does that also make it true. Christ was no wine bibber because He drank the pure fruit of the vine. "Oinos" refers to both the Fruit of the Vine and sour wine. Jesus does not get people drunk because it is against His nature. He is pure. |
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---SamtheMan on 4/18/08 |
Winebibbers always try defending fermented product in spite of all the warnings the Bible gives against it. They need Jesus to be an alcoholic in order to justify the sin they will not give up. Others serve liquor in Church Communion yet Jesus said...Mat26:28 "For this is My Blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this FRUIT OF THE VINE, until that day when I drink it NEW with you in my Father's kingdom" |
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---SamtheMan on 4/18/08 |
My Bible says wine so I believe it.
The Lord himself mentioned drinking and being called a winebibber.
But regardless of whether it was grapejuice or wine matters little.
What does matter is that it signified the new testament in his blood.
The water made wine being the word being made flesh.
In an earthen vessel.
Having the Spirit without measure, or filled to the brim.
A better covenant, or testament received in the latter days after the first or former rain, or testament.
Frank |
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---Frank on 4/18/08 |
The greek word for juice, is "chymos", and grape juice, "chymos stafylis", but the greek word used in this passage in the Bible is "oinos", which means "wine". And verse 10 tells of it's fermentation. Usually the best aged wine was served first, and after the guests had well drunk then the green or poor wine was served, but instead Jesus served the best aged wine at the end of the wedding. Yes, Jesus made well aged and perfectly fermented wine in an instant. |
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---Eloy on 4/18/08 |
The greek word for juice, is "chymos", and grape juice, "chymos stafylis", but the greek word used in this passage in the Bible is "oinos", which means "wine". And verse 10 tells of it's fermentation. Usually the best aged wine was served first, and after the guests had well drunk then the green or poor wine was served, but instead Jesus served the best aged wine at the end of the wedding. Yes, Jesus made well aged and perfectly fermented wine in an instant. |
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---Eloy on 4/18/08 |
I suppose if Jesus would have turned it into soda, people today would be debating whether or not it was unsweetened, caffeinated, or flavored. The Point is, it was plain simple water, and he did that what God does and turned it into wine. Look, water: now, wine! Must be God? |
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---Eloy on 4/18/08 |
SamtheMan:
Where did you get the idea that the symbol of his blood is UNFERMENTED wine? Jesus said "wine". He never said unfermented. Fermentation is what distinguishes wine from juice. In hot mediterranean climates without refrigeration, juice either ferments or spoils. Fermentation is what PREVENTS wine from spoiling.
(In the same way that cultures in hot climates eat hot spicy foods - because alcohol and hot spices both keep bacteria from decomposing food). |
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---StrongAxe on 4/18/08 |
Jesus is Pure. His Body is Pure. His Blood is Pure. The symbol of His Body is Pure Unfermented Bread. The symbol of His Blood is Pure Unfermented Wine.
Why do so many claim His body to be leavened with decomposing grapes? |
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---SamtheMan on 4/17/08 |
Dan,ha ha good point but I really didn't express myself clearly. sorry. I meant they could drink the real wine and still wouldn't get drunk,not change composition of wine, just its effect on people. |
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---Darlene_1 on 4/17/08 |
For a description of 'New Wine,' read Acts 2:13-15. |
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---amicusdei on 4/17/08 |
Darlene, if God made wine(alchohol)then took out the drunk part(removed alchohol) then didn't he make grape juice the long way? |
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---dan on 4/17/08 |
Mima:
I wasn't saying I believed that. I was merely illustrating the common fallacious thought processes that people often use to interpret the bible.
They first assume their conclusions, and then reject any scriptures that seem to conflict with their conclusions. So of course anything left over has to agree with them. |
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---StrongAxe on 4/16/08 |
How does this statement,"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, AND CREATE EVIL: I the LORD do all these things." Agree with this statement,," Jesus would never make anything evil" |
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---Mima on 4/16/08 |
It was wine. The Bible mentions it was California Gallo wine. |
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---Caring on 4/16/08 |
A problem I see here (and in many other subjects - polygamy in particular), is that people come to the subject with pre-conceived ideas, something like this:
1) The Bible condemns alcohol as evil
2) Jesus would never make anything evil
3) Therefore, Jesus would not make wine.
As such, they twist the Bible to fit their own beliefs, right or wrong, rather than reading what the Bible ACTUALLY says. |
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---StrongAxe on 4/15/08 |
Trey:: I believe when we are called to step up to the plate we are called to show improvement by our endeavour.This continued improvement steers us on to Perfection which is what Christ calls us to do "Be perfect as your heavenly father is perfect'Remember we are not made to His image and likeness for a whim but a purpose. |
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---Emcee on 4/14/08 |
Just a thought, Jesus turned the water into real wine,but by the same power He could have taken out the "drunk" making ability even though it had fermented into alcohol. That would be just as big a miracle as the turning water into the "best" wine. We all know God may answer our prayers but put just a little bit of a twist on it so its not the way we thought He would answer. God is always good to us,but sometimes He has just a wee bit of a laugh on us. |
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---Darlene_1 on 4/14/08 |
He turned water into wine it was his first miricle. Hope this helped.
Blessings,
Ellie7766 |
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---Ellie7766 on 4/13/08 |
Alan and Emcee, almost identical stories. Neato. |
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---lisa on 4/13/08 |
This discussion is irrelevent. The story is not about distinctions between wine, and juice. It is about why the Christ was come to earth, His mission, and how it would be carried out. |
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---dan on 4/13/08 |
Another thought is:
Joh 2:10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine, and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.
That good wine being representative of Christ's blood which was kept until the time of his coming (Read 1 Pet 1:10-16).
Hope that makes sense. |
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---trey on 4/12/08 |
Emcee,
I really enjoyed your comments.
The scriptures state that Christ turned the water into wine, not grape juice.
Just a couple thoughts. If grape juice did not ferment it would spoil. Christ is the great preserver. We are preserved in Christ (1 Thes 5:23, Jude 1). |
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---trey on 4/12/08 |
Alan of Uk :: I'll drink a tot, to thatI have a Mountain Ash in my Yard and migratory Birds do eat the fermented berries and get Drunk,or in England Tipsy. They are mostly Bohemenian wax wings .I treated one and gave him back his flight feathers.Even gave him a teeny weeny bit of Tylenol, to sleep it off. |
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---Emcee on 4/11/08 |
Jesus is Pure and His Body is Pure and His Blood is Pure and the symbol of His Body is Pure Unfermented Bread and the symbol of His Blood is Pure Unfermented Wine. |
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---SamtheMan on 4/11/08 |
Samuel ... It is not the yeast which makes the vinegar.
The yeast during fermentation, converts the sugar content of the fruit into alcohol.
Vinegar flies are attracted by the odour of the fermentation and if the container is not protected with some sort of cover, the flies drops into the liquid, and this is what turns the wine, or the cider, into vinegar. |
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---alan_of_UK on 3/13/08 |
Jack ... Actually fermentation starts before that!
The yeasts grow on the skins of the grapes.
In my garden I have grapes, and I leave them on the vine. They start to ferment there.
Birds which eat them get tipsy! |
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---alan_of_UK on 3/13/08 |
ALL::Jesus always had a purpose and a LESSON behind that purpose.Notice the word CHANGE.what does it signify.notice water to wine = upgrade.He says "my time has not yet come "yet demonstrates His first lesson.If you have to change always do it to improve.This word of Follow me is demonstrated .Change for the betterit is like saying IMPROVE REPENT look up to the lord.It was wine first grade the best that was available.It is not How much you drink but how much you Control the desire to imbibe. |
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---Emcee on 3/12/08 |
And my Father who used to make wine would tell you that yeast will get you vinegar. Take some time and look up on the web how to make vinegar and you will see that you are mistaken in your assumptions.
Why would JESUS make something that had the hint of death in it? |
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---Samuel on 3/12/08 |
Just because He made wine, doesn't mean He drank it. |
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---Maria on 3/12/08 |
OINOS means fermented wine, especially in the mores of the time.
Fermentation starts immediately when the grapes are crushed. The yeasts float through the air and land on the skins. |
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---Jack on 3/12/08 |
The first miracle of Jesus Christ is very important. Jesus turned the water into wine and He saved the best wine for last.
Unheard of in that time. Saving the best for last.
It's Biblically symbolic, it's prophetic and it is a promise that Jesus reminded them of at the Last Supper. It is prophetic of the Wedding Feast. |
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---Cindy on 3/12/08 |
Jesus turned the water into wine.
Jesus rose from the dead.
Jesus saved the best for last, because that's the Way of Jesus Christ.
He doesn't require any dietary laws because He is the New Covenant.
Avoiding wine and alcohol is wise practice for the alcoholic.
Denying the first miracle of Jesus Christ is denying the Truth of God's Word.
Picking and choosing from the law, picking and choosing from or adding to the Word is placing yourself under the curse of the old law. |
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---Cindy on 3/12/08 |
catherine:
Jesus's first miracle was making wine.
Pharisees accused Jesus of being a drunkard (for "eating and drinking"). and John the Baptist of being possessed for doing neither.
At the Last Supper, Jesus said he would never again taste wine until he entered the Kingdom.
None of these make sense if Jesus never drank wine.
The Bible does NOT unilaterally condemn wine. It even recommends it for an upset stomach. What it DOES condemn is drunkeness. |
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---StrongAxe on 3/11/08 |
That coincides nicely with Ellen's beliefs...
I am happy to assure you that as a denomination we are in the fullest sense total abstainers from the use of spirituous liquors, wine, beer, [fermented] cider, and also tobacco and all other narcotics. . . . All are vegetarians, many abstaining from the use of flesh food, while others use it in only the most moderate degree. |
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---Cindy on 3/11/08 |
"In the nineteenth century, no method had been devised to keep grape juice from fermenting. She referred to grape juice as free from fermentation as possible. In reference to communion services, "This objecting to a few drops of domestic wine with which to only wet the lips at the Lords supper, is carrying total abstinence principles to great length. . . .Let deacons obtain the cultivated grape, see the wine made, secured from the air to keep it from fermenting as much as possible." |
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---Cindy on 3/11/08 |
Ellen knew so many things..
While Christ accepted invitations to feasts and gatherings, He did not partake of all the food offered Him, but quietly ate of that which was appropriate for His physical necessities, avoiding the many things that He did not need. His disciples were frequently invited with Him, and His conduct was a lesson to them, teaching them not to indulge appetite by overeating or by eating improper food or wine. |
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---Cindy on 3/11/08 |
Drinking wine is not sinful as long as you dont drink to excess or behave irresponsibly like driving under the influence. No where in the Bible does it say its sinful. Its a man-made law. there are much worse things that drinking wine---much worse. |
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---janet on 3/11/08 |
JESUS CHRIST...is the one, true, holy, God. Infact, holiness is His main attribute. So NO, He did not drink WINE. No, He did not have a girlfriend. NO ,He was never married. No, He did not have children. NO, He never, ever sinned. NO, He could not have sinned. NO, He did not want to SIN. You heathens someday will pay for ALL of your wicked remarks about my Holy God...MY HOLY GOD. |
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---catherine on 3/11/08 |
Does not matter to me. I was not there. Sorry. But I do hope it was grape juice. Christians should stay away from alcohol. |
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---Robyn on 3/10/08 |
I guess alot of you drink alcohol here.lol
I heard a sermon about drinking in the Bible.
All of the case in which man did drink and got drunk..nothing every good came of it..Even Jesus refused to drink the wine...gall at the crucifixion.
I still believe the freshest wine is not fermented. But I read all your imput |
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---lisa on 1/12/08 |
Wine is wine, not grape juice. The miracle included the fermentation. If it was grape juice then they would have said grape juice. How silly, Lisa. |
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---janet on 1/10/08 |
Lisa,
I would'nt put limits on the power of God.
If he can turn rivers of water into Blood, HE can turn a couple of buckets of water into fermented Wine... Would'nt you agree??? |
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---Duane_M on 1/10/08 |
FUN IS EXPENSIVE JOY IS FREE. |
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---catherine on 1/10/08 |
SamtheMan, if you're right, then why bother with refrigerating your own grape juice? |
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---Ktisophilos on 1/10/08 |
#1 lisa, this makes no sense:
fresh crushed grapes is non alcoholic.
so the water into wine was not alcoholic.
because it was not fermented. |
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---Ryan_Z on 1/10/08 |
#2 lisa, Jesus produced fresh crushed grapes out of water??? He doesn't have the power or the know how to make water into wine that contains alcohol? And I am sure the guests at the party were commeting on how the better grape juice was served last instead of first? Because if you know anything about weddings buy a small quantity of good stuff and get the guests drinking that first, then you can slip in the lower grade stuff and they won't notice. |
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---Ryan_Z on 1/10/08 |
The greek word for juice, is "chymos", and grape juice, "chymos stafylis", but the greek word used in this passage in the Bible is "oinos", which means "wine". And verse 10 tells of it's fermentation. Usually the best aged wine was served first, and after the guests had well drunk then the green or poor wine was served, but instead Jesus served the best aged wine at the end of the wedding. Yes, Jesus made well aged and perfectly fermented wine in an instant. |
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---Eloy on 1/10/08 |
Lisa (1):
How can you possibly know that? Both Hebrew and Greek have separate words for 'juice' and 'wine'. The miracle at cana was 'water into wine', not 'water into juice'.
2000 years ago there was no refrigeration. Mediterranean climates are hot. Do you know how long grapes (which aren't in season all year) would last without fermenting? Not long. I've seen sugared soda left out at room temperature start fermenting in just a few days. |
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---StrongAxe on 1/9/08 |
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