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Are Popes Infallible

How can one 'infallible' Pope create something and a later 'infallible' Pope abolish that same thing? Purgatory is what I refer to. Doesn't this cause grave doubt in those who believe that Popes are infallible?

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Lee to TS - would not it be wonderful if you could tell us what you are talking about?

Christ left His church with the Holy Spirit, but Adventists look to EGgWhite for guidance much as Roman Catholics look to their pope.
---Lee on 3/31/08


Lee to Emcee...Now there is the pot calling the kettle black.
---TS on 3/31/08


Sorry Emcee,but the Lord left us with His Holy Spirit to guide us (John 14:16), not the popes many of whom we can see never believed in Christ at all.

I would rather not open up this old topic despite the fact it is obvious you have problems believing what your church wants you to believe.
---Lee on 3/31/08


Emcee ... Lee 1 has not reopened an old subject!
His old post has been redated upon the resurrection of the old blog.
But I wonder why the resurrection?
---alan_of_UK on 3/30/08


Lee1::Since you have deigned to discuss an old topic.Be it known that The question of Infallibility only takes place by the Guidance of The holy spirit "ON FAITH & MORALS" in the RCC.So please stick to the point,to avoid useless and senseless discussion.
---Emcee on 3/28/08




2. You also know the injustice they did to the Jewish people all through the ages, Were those Popes also with special grace and without error? I think your comment is incorrect for many reasons. Remember this Jewish people are God's chosen people. The very one's that God set aside. Popes are not infallible, but human as everyone else but with authority and power which is worse then any human, for thier actions effect many in the world as you have just read recently on the papers.
---lee_1 on 3/28/08


FYI::The only Pope bearing the Name of Constantine was the 88th Pope in the line of succession to St Peter From AD708-715 & has no connection to Constantine the Roman Emperor around 300AD the ruling popes were ST.Marcellinus ,St.Marcellus.St Esebiusst,St.Melchiades;ST Sylvester-29th-33RD;PAPAL AUTHORITIES AD296-335AD
---Emcee on 1/21/07


Augusta - Read Luke 4:38,39 and Mark 1:29-31 where it says that Jesus healed Peter's mother-in-law. A man can only have a mother-in-law if he is married!
---Helen_5378 on 1/21/07


*I think the present Pope had said that Limbo does not exist?
---alanUKquent64534 ****

I haven't heard of Pope Benedict formally addressing limbo since the commission summoned by JPII a couple years back. However, he's always maintained that he doesn't believe in it.
---augusta on 1/21/07


*Peter was a Jew and the scriptures show he had a wife and a son named Marcus.*

You're kidding!!! Peter was married??? :o

Btw, 'Marcus' is Mark the Evangelist, not Peter's biological son.

*I don't see why God would use gentiles to head his church that was founded on Jesus a Jew and Peter a Jew.*

" There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus." (Ga 3:28)
---augusta on 1/21/07




*Can ANYONE submit proof or even an Idea of the line of succession after Peter? how can you say it comes to benedict?*

The Church doesn't have to prove it, although you can see a list of popes if you google it (and Constantine wasn't a pope so I don't know what he has to do with anything). When writing about apostolic succession in 2:Tim 2:2, Paul (or any of the others) mentions nothing about requiring the line of succession to be documented.

con't...
---augusta on 1/21/07


2. In 189 A.D.Irenaeus wrote:

"Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings;

con't
---augua9846 on 1/21/07


3. [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its preeminent authority."
---augua9846 on 1/21/07


*As far as I know the Pope is only considered infallible by the Catholic church. The word of God says that all have sinned*

I thought you were one of the "former Catholics"? If so then why would a former Catholic write something write this? The Cath Church has never said the pope wasn't a sinner.
---augua9846 on 1/21/07


*Good question.
---Kay6588 on 1/21/07****

I missed the point of it myself. LOL
---augusta on 1/21/07


Emcee ... I was trying to point out that the Pope's recent "Doesn't exist" statement referred to Limbo & not Purgatory, as someone here suggested.
But I think that Limbo has recently existed as catholic belief?
Not masny non-RCs accept the idea of Purgatory, but there's no point in arguing about this!!
Blessings
---alanUKquent64534 on 1/21/07


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MA::I think we already had this discusion last year how ever for the record "Yes" Only when Declaring truths on Faith & Morals.JN21;15-17 Mat10;2-4Lk 6;13-16 Acts2;37,38.Purgatory was never abolished as it is still in existence as many may soon find out,based on the truth "nothing defiled shall enter heaven" 1Cor.3;13-15
---Emcee on 1/21/07


George, you're stuck to your beliefs and your aggressive behavior won't allow you to think differently.
---Caring on 1/21/07


"if Peter was the first pope (which he is not) why don't following popes follow his example and marry and have children?"-Frank

Good question.
---Kay6588 on 1/21/07


"There's no misunderstanding on our part. ;o "

augusta, it was your part that I was referring to. :p
---Kay6588 on 1/21/07


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Alan ::Limbo ceased to exist after the Resurrection,as Jesus released all those souls who had been held there. But Purgatory continues to exist for the reasons as a fore mentioned.
---Emcee on 1/20/07


Peter was a Jew and the scriptures show he had a wife and a son named Marcus. Paul was the apostle to the gentiles but still a Jew which gives gentiles no grounds to boast and I don't see why God would use gentiles to head his church that was founded on Jesus a Jew and Peter a Jew. Let alone give them the power to declare right and wrong. And, if Peter was the first pope (which he is not) why don't following popes follow his example and marry and have children?
Frank
---Frank on 1/20/07


I think the present Pope had said that Limbo does not exist?
---alanUKquent64534 on 1/20/07


Kay: *Its a misunderstanding of the Greek words "petros" and "petra".*

There's no misunderstanding on our part. ;o
---augusta on 1/20/07


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MA, no Pope has abolished the belief in Purgatory so your statement is incorrect.
---Caring on 1/20/07


wait a second. Can ANYONE submit proof or even an Idea of the line of succession after Peter?. how can you say it comes to benedict?. constantine was your forefather. not peter. and constantine was supreme priest of the SOLIS INVICTUS religion at the same time. in his deathbed, he was baptized a unitarian by an aryan (a predecessor of the unitarian jehovahs witnesses theology (held also by Sir Isaac Newton).(not necessarily by me)
---george on 1/20/07


"The Church was built by Christ but before He left, He told Peter that he's the stone on which Christ will build His Church."

I disagree with you, Daffy. :) The Church (not the RCC) was built on Jesus Christ, not Peter.
---Kay on 1/20/07


"I know you don't agree even though this is a super simple and straight forward statement which does not need a theologian to deciphere."

Its a misunderstanding of the Greek words "petros" and "petra".

"After Peter came Titus and the rest till Benedict XVI."

This is according to Catholics, of course.



---Kay on 1/20/07


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"..many here claim they have been led by the H.S. and God has spoken to them, etc. So it's ok for them to be spoken to by God but not the Pope when he's dealing with spiritual matters."

Caring, the Holy Spirit will NEVER lead us contrary to what has already been revealed in the Word of God. And MANY of the popes teachings are contrary to God's word. You say that Catholics don't worship Mary,the pope says something entirely different. Is the pope being led by God to worship Mary?
---Kay on 1/20/07


MA ::Ok so now we are back to purgatory,which the CC exhorts all to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins .Right whats wrong with thatYou want to wind up in Hell Fine But those who still believe in Gods Mercy,can & will continue to Pray why Because the book of God says so 2Mach;12:43,45&46.Ecclus:7;37--Matt12;3---1Corin 3:13-15.
---EMCEE on 1/19/07


Kay, since you called me "sweet", I'll reply :))

Yes, watch those Looney Tunes. Don't miss Bugs Bunny - he's my fave.
---Caring on 1/19/07


Dear sweet Caring, are you saying that I can only post when I'm not bored?

Now about those cartoons, would those be Looney Tunes? Shhhh... Be vewy vewy quite! I'm hun-ting wabbit!! Oh wook, I see some wabbit twacks! ;)
---Kay on 1/19/07


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Kay said: "Caring, I was B.O.R.E.D."

Dear sweet Kay, if you're bored, please don't try to bore others :))

Watch some cartoons - they'll make you happy.
---Caring on 1/19/07


What you said is true, Grace. Also, many here claim they have been led by the H.S. and God has spoken to them, etc. So it's ok for them to be spoken to by God but not the Pope when he's dealing with spiritual matters.
---Caring on 1/19/07


As far as I know the Pope is only considered infallible by the Catholic church. The word of God says that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and it is Jesus Christ that has all power in heaven and earth. His word will never change. All others are just men and have to come to God through Christ. Their rules and doctrines must be in accordance with the word of God in truth.
Frank
---Frank on 1/18/07


"Kay, just an observation! Why did you pick up an old blog to revamp the conversation?"

Caring, I was B.O.R.E.D.
---Kay on 1/18/07


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I'm sure it's in this blog somewhere early on, but the Pope is only considered infallible under certain rare circumstances. It's only happened twice in the RCC since it's existence. So he's not an infallible man, but infallible under Jesus's authority. That's how you can have Vatican 2.
---grace3869 on 1/18/07


The Church (body of believers, not RCC) was built on Jesus Christ, not Peter.
---Kay on 1/18/07

The Church was built by Christ but before He left, He told Peter that he's the stone on which Christ will build His Church.

I know you don't agree even though this is a super simple and straight forward statement which does not need a theologian to deciphere.

After Peter came Titus and the rest till Benedict XVI. No use of rehashing what has been argued for ages on CN.
---Caring on 1/18/07


Kay, just an observation! Why did you pick up an old blog to revamp the conversation? Is it because it's dealing with the Pope? Is it to give you and others to denigrate the RCC?

I don't see a good intention behind it.
---Caring on 1/18/07


The Church (body of believers, not RCC) was built on Jesus Christ, not Peter.
---Kay on 1/18/07


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Oh Helen:I know you do not like to be proved wrong but it is not my words that do that but Jesus words If you need a break Go ask him.Lee to you I say,Friend- People do evil Not the doctrine of Jesus.Thou art Peter ----I build MY Church----H--P-it--JC
---Emcee on 9/28/06


Emcee - You never give up preaching the lies do you. The RCC is just that the RCC. It never was Jesus' church and it never will be Jesus' church. The church is not a denomination, it is all the born-again Spirit-filled believers who are trusting in Jesus Christ.
---Helen_5378 on 9/28/06


Oh Emcee, your statements sometimes are just too much. You keep speaking as if the church that Christ began was the Catholic church. And that everything is right if you belong to it. I very much don't like to speak of the evil they have done and let me say, that did not come from God, but from the evil men within the denomination. You close your eyes and refuse to admit something that the whole world knows about.
---lee_1 on 9/27/06


Augusta::Don't you hear the guffawing in the background you are being grilled or Rosted by Helen, like they do on TV.I give you Pauls confidence "Hold fast to your traditions "& beliefs they are joshing.They all Know the CC is Jesus's church without a doubt,including Helen who may shout blue tantrums, but at heart she loves Jesus.
---Emcee on 9/27/06


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*Augusta - You said below "the chair of Peter upon whom the church was built". That is exactly the same thing as saying "Peter's church" because the one upon whom it is built it will be their church*
It's Jesus' church because He founded it. And as founder and builder and He decided to build it on Simon whom He renamed Peter, which means rock. "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church," Mt 16:18
---augua9846 on 9/27/06


Augusta - You said below "the chair of Peter upon whom the church was built". That is exactly the same thing as saying "Peter's church" because the one upon whom it is built it will be their church.
---Helen_5378 on 9/26/06


***I do believe that Augusta is talking about another church. She talks about "Peter's church". I belong to Jesus' Church.***
And just for the record, Helen, I have never used the term "Peter's Church" here or anywhere else. (It's Jesus' Church).
---augua9846 on 9/25/06


***I do believe that Augusta is talking about another church. She talks about "Peter's church". I belong to Jesus' Church.***

Jesus told Peter "He who hears you hears Me. And He who rejects you rejects Me."
---augua9846 on 9/25/06


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However, they did not dispute the doctrine itself. One even commented (and many agreed) that "The doctrine should be defined by acclamation. There was something lacking in the faith of bishops who wanted the question studied and discussed."
---augua9846 on 9/25/06


*there was many at the 1860's council that did not want to vote for papal infallibility ***
Lee, ironically, one of the main reasons most of them were reluctant was because they knew what the reaction from Non-Catholics would be (especially the Protestants). They couldn't agree on the wording of the definition of infallibility that they were initially presented with; It was considered far too lengthy, elaborate & obscure. Because of this the text had to be sent back and redrafted several times.cont
---augua9846 on 9/25/06


**It is interesting that the concept of papal infallibility was once damned as a Protestant heresy.*
Twas never condemned infallibly.
"there was many at the 1860's council that did not want to vote for papal infallibility.."
Lee, do you know WHY?? lol I'll get back to you on this one after I dig through my notes -too long to fit here.
"The pope that promoted the belief was a psychotic individual"
Did he chop someone's ear off or something?? ;o
---augua9846 on 9/25/06


I do believe that Augusta is talking about another church. She talks about "Peter's church". I belong to Jesus' Church.
---Helen_5378 on 9/24/06


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The Pope is a sinner just like the rest of us. There are no special provisions given to him by God. He cannot forgive sins, nor can any other human. The only person that can forgive sins is God. I emplore Catholics to read the Bible...not the Catholic Bible, but the King James Version. Also, read about Constantine and how his "conversion" was only for personal power and gain.
---Agape on 9/24/06


Augusta::My reply on "THE Popes Infallibility"is taken from the C/Catechism.Lee did not read but glanced intent on his reply.Click on my name & scroll down to see my answer.My statement is clear. Popes cannot err when declaring Doctrines On Faith & Morals. They are protected by the HS as they enjoy that unique grace & privelege Matt16:19What jesus gave to Peter he gave to all popes.About impeccability I did not touch on.
---Emcee on 9/24/06


It is interesting that the concept of papal infallibility was once damned as a Protestant heresy.
And there was many at the 1860's council that did not want to vote for papal infallibility but they were pressured to do so.
The pope that promoted the belief was a psychotic individual who later lost the Papal States to Emmanuel II.
I view it more as a political thing designed to control people and force beliefs on people that were not sanctioned by Scripture.
Lee from NM.
---lee on 9/24/06


"So too, all [the apostles] are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?" - St. Cyprian, 251 A.D.
---augua9846 on 9/24/06


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"and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were also what Peter was [i.e., apostles], but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair."

cont...
---augua9846 on 9/24/06


St Cyprian of Carthage in 251 A.D. writes:
"The Lord says to Peter: I say to you, he says, that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. And to you I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever things you bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth, they shall be loosed also in heaven. On him he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [Jo 21:17]"
cont...
---augua9846 on 9/24/06


This is why Jesus could say: "He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me." Lu 10:16.

So the pope as shepherd & successor feeds his flock, not with error but with truth and sound doctrine.
---augua9846 on 9/24/06


Our Lord prays for two things: First - that the faith of Peter and of his successors will not fail (Jesus said the gates of hades shall not overcome His Church, so this promise reaches into the future) Second - that Peter would confirm his brethren in the faith.

cont
---augua9846 on 9/24/06


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"Behold, Satan hath desired to have you (My Apostles), that he may sift you as wheat. But I have prayed for thee that thy faith fail not; and thou, being once converted, confirm thy brethren" (Lu 22:31-32).

Note that Jesus prays only for Peter. And notice too that Satan only desired Peter - not all of the apostles.

cont..
---augua9846 on 9/24/06


Just like Peter denied the Lord not once but three times. Yet Jesus knew beforehand He would and He chose him to rule His church anyway.
Could you imagine the reaction if Pope B. publically denied Jesus? That would make the news wire quicker than the secret rapture. lol
Don't hold your breath, Lee.. this is going to be long. ;)
cont..
---augua9846 on 9/24/06


Lee writes: Augusta, the only reason I brought it up was to show that they are not all guided by the Spirit of God. They are fallible."

Lee, I couldn't locate where Emcee wrote that but I'm sure by that he meant that the Lord guides the pope into truth if He needs to declare a doctrine. You're still confusing infallibility with impeccability. The Church has never claimed that the popes are sin-free. They are capable of any sin that the rest of us mere mortals are.

cont...
---augua9846 on 9/24/06


Lee:Read your answer the tunnel vision thtough which you see is your perception.You look for a flaw & stare, but fail to see the good & beauty around,& what it represents.Christ is the Invisible head of His church & His appointed succesors starting with Peter,were all GOOD Human People. Even Jesus Recognised that & HE also upbraided Peter on several Occassions.But still chose HIM. His goal is one Flock one shepherd & this WILL be achieved in spite of Dissenters.Gen3:15
---Emcee on 9/23/06


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2. Augusta, there is nothing wrong with quoting history. It can improve our lives by learning the mistakes of many. It is in the past for sure and as Christian we look forward to our goal. If you are ashamed I am sorry. It was not my fault they did so much wrong. Its all in history. If you wish you can write of many that did good. I know of many too but was answering Emcee because of his comments about special grace he says they have.
---lee_1 on 9/23/06


Augusta, the only reason I brought it up was to show that they are not all guided by the Spirit of God. They are fallible. Of course there was many good Popes. I just finished reading of Chief Rabbi Israel Zolli, who became a Catholic in 1945 and took the name of Eugenio in gratitude to Pius XII for harbouring Jews during the Second World War. Not since Constantine had there been such a surprising conversion.
---lee_1 on 9/23/06


"Lee writes: But the history for now is there."

That's right, Lee, history is there. And it's an historical fact that there were far, far more good popes than bad.

But we never hear anything about them, do we? Or the correction of calumny spread about popes.

This agenda has far more significance than what some pope 800 years ago did because it continues to the present. Anti-Catholicism is the last accepted form of prejudice that exists in the world today.
---augua9846 on 9/23/06


I wonder if MA or anyone here really KNOWS what the doctrine of papal infallibility actually says, and the conditions under which it applies...

Or are they attacking a straw man--in other words, a totally false idea of it?
---Jack on 9/23/06


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3. and history can then speak good about what those popes will do in the future. But the history for now is there.
---lee_1 on 9/22/06


2. The late John Paul was a good man. Yet he could not speak against what other popes have done in history. All he can do is to try to make right many things against the Jews. He could only go so far. I understand that very well. I also understand that changing many of the rules in the church would only indicate that the former rules were wrong to begin with. So there is much to be done. Maybe another pope will come alone and make more changes.
---lee_1 on 9/22/06


Emcee, let me say, after writing what I did, that I understand the pope to be human. As humans, they are all susceptible to temptation. Many because of power, others because of money, and others because of the pressure brought to them with the title. They do have one of the largest flocks in the world and with that comes much pressure. No pope in his right mind would ever speak against another pope even when that other pope was wrong.
---lee_1 on 9/22/06


LEE:Remember when the old covenant was taken by the Jewish people into battle?what is that indicative of.They relied on their God to defeat the enemy.But that is not the point I am making.You asked me for a quote & I supplied that.If in spite of God's word, You don't see, then tell me what can I do?Nothing! you have to see.I can't make you see-- pray.
With regards to ministers, priests, Judges & people in authority who abuse their power I am sure God will judge, certainly not us .
---Emcee on 9/22/06


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5. Brother Emcee, I know you are a very devote and kind man, I can see the difference in you from your answers. I know many great man came from that Church. Many died for their believes at the hands of the Catholic church. The history is there for the whole world to see.
---lee_1 on 9/22/06


4. This guys were not even godly. More to the saying that they were evil in every sense of the word. I am sorry to say it Emcee, but there was no excuse for what they did to the Jews through history.
---lee_1 on 9/22/06


3. a house with instruments of torture that were state of the art. "No man" he said, may demean himself by tolerating heretics" Another of his sentences was, "If my own father were a heretic, I would personally gather the wood to burn him." Elected pope in May, 1555, he was free to spread his own brand of fanaticism. He hated Jews and shut them in ghettos, hated sodomites whom he burned, hated women whom he forbade to darken the doors of the Vatican. No Emcee, this guys were bad.
---lee_1 on 9/22/06


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