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Is The Natural Man Depraved

Is natural man (in his unsaved state )totally depraved. That is to say man has nothing good or deserveing in himself.

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 ---mima on 1/9/06
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The "Old-Man" or "New-Man" or "Old-Nature" or "New-Nature" is metaphorical or a figure of speech for voluntary and self-determined action or a moral state of being. What is sin? Sin is wrong action, rebellion, insurrection, disobedience, unrighteous, vice and wickedness. To characterize or describe wrong action, is to assign, or ascribe moral characteristics, attributes, and qualities to the moral act. A sinful-character, nature, disposition, and temperament, describes and characterizes the mode, manner or way of life, a person lives, by being sinful.
---TRU-DOG on 1/2/09


Mima, because man in and of himself cannot save himself by anything disserving in himself, does not mean man is totally depraved without a conscience of right and wrong. Men can seer their own conscience. We call men like this today sociopaths or psychopaths. Those who have pathological personalities. Men who kill murder, cannibalize other humans, molest children and keep doing it without conscience we put away. That would be total depravity. If we are all depraved, who would be in authority to enforce the laws of the land.



David was not totally depraved either. He had a conscience, repented, and said Blessed is the man whose sin is forgiven.
---kathr4453 on 12/26/08


Man is not totally depraved, but totally deceived, for the most part. Why? Because they sin. Sin leads to blindness. God allows this to lead us to more sin until we reach rock bottom and realize our sorry state and need for a Saviour. At that point we repent, then comes faith, then we can be baptized and live in a new way which is pleasing to God. The danger is that some people who don't commit huge sins, live in a state of uncleaness and don't realize this situation is making them unable to see the truth about anything. They think that their good works make up for it. This prevents them from humbling themselves, and getting back to the narrow road.
---frances008 on 12/16/08


Rev Herb, Yes, you can be total depraved in a moral respect. However, your view is not a moral view, it is a Greek/ontological view of total depravity. When you disobey God's law, you are total depraved morally, it only takes one sin. All sin is moral depravity, not something you are born with, like a ontological substance or essence.
---TRU-DOG on 12/16/08


Yes, T.U.L.I.P again
---Rev_Herb on 9/30/08




5. with God's plan of redemption by using the Old Testament to show that her unbelief reflects exactly what the prophets recorded (8:29), and that it is consistent with God's prerequisite of faith (verses 30-33). There is no escaping the facts that are spoken by Paul concerning God's sovereignty. It is explained very well all through the book of Romans.
---Lupe2618 on 1/23/06


4. for salvation, but rather allowed to incur the just penalty for their sin-Gods wrath. (prepared for distruction), by their own rejection of Him. God does not make men sinful, but He leaves them in the sin they have chosen. (glory), for the greatness of His character, seen especially in the grace, mercy, compassion, and forgiveness He grants sinners in Christ. (Vessels of mercy) are those He prepared beforehand refers to election. Paul finishes his argument that Israel's unbelief is not inconsistent
---Lupe2618 on 1/23/06


3. verse 23, He goes even futher, by explaining, (What if), this introduces a statement of fact in the form of a rhetorical question. (Wanting), The greek word speaks of divine intention, not passive resignation. (Endured), God could justly destroy sinners the first time they sin. But He patiently endures their rebellion rather than giving them what every sin immediately deserves, eternal punishment. (Vessels of Wrath), Continuing the anology of a potter, Paul refers to those whom God has not chosen
---Lupe2618 on 1/23/06


2. and continues to press the Issue about God's sovereignty that God has mercy on whom He wishes to have mercy on verse 16, and goes even further with the explanation of Pharaoh, that because of God's purpose Pharaoh reach to his title. He then finishes by saying,(That God is the Potter and we are clay) and have no right to tell God to whom He should have mercy on.
---Lupe2618 on 1/23/06


Sister Debbie, when Paul answers about the Potter and the clay it is not talking about Israel at all, it is a demonstration of God's sovereignty. All the way from verse 6 he begins to explain the Omnipotence of God. In verse 14 he continues with "Is there unrighteousness with God?" He had just given the explanation of Rebeca, and for(the children not yet born)nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand.
---Lupe2618 on 1/23/06




Romans 9:21 says God is the potter and we are the clay. This verse is proof God has chosen certain people for salvation? This verse is talking about service or purpose in Gods plan here on earth not salvation. There are several places in the OT that use the illustration of the potter and clay. They refer to Israel as the clay. Since only a portion of the Israelites were believers, these verses could not be referring to salvation. They are talking about God using the Nation of Israel to accomplish a task.
---Debbie on 1/19/06


In Romans 8:28-30 the Greek term translated WHOM is PLURAL (referring to the elect) and therefore refers to a corporate body rather than individual persons. It tells us that God knew beforehand that there would be a body of believers, but does not say that He limited the membership to a specific number. It further tells us that the destiny God had in mind for all who would cooperate with His will was "to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren."
---Debbie on 1/19/06


2. Second, you did a great job in looking for the intrinsic meaning of those passages. Who spoke, to whom, what was happening at the time, why it was said. It is something many don't do and just pick a Scripture verse to prove a point. Your understanding in finding the meaning of the verses takes time, but is the best way to learn.
---Lupe2618 on 1/19/06


Hello sister Debbie, you are correct. The intrinsic meaning for this verses are not intended to identify the origin of evil or explain fully why God has allowed it, but they do provide 3 reasons He has permitted its presence and contamination, first to demonstrated His wrath, to make His power known; and to put the riches of His glorious mercy on display. No one is treated unfairly; Some receive the justice they earn and deserve(6:23), others graciously receive mercy.
---Lupe2618 on 1/19/06


In verse 22 it doesnt say HE prepared, but in verse 23 it does. It also indicates that this isn't about him creating vessels for wrath and those for mercy. Paul is asking 2 questions and it is for the reader to understand Gods purpose in BEARING with the objects of his wrath. to MAKE KNOWN THE RICHES OF HIS GLORY. We are overlooking the real meaning of this verse!!! Listen, God says I prepare vessels for glory, but vessels are prepared for destruction. Which is the proper translation of the Greek.
---Debbie on 1/18/06


I found something interesting . in the Greek there are two serious distinctions here in the Greek tense.. The difference between active and passive. In active, the subject does the acting and in passive the subject receives the action. In Romans 9, verse 22 is a passive, vessels of wrath fitted to destruction. God is not the subject. The verb is passive. Verse 23, vessels of mercy which He had prepared to glory. God, there, is the subject and the verb is active.
---Debbie on 1/18/06


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Bruce, thank you for reading what I wrote and answering me. Praise God we are saved and that we love to study and read. I welcome anything you write down brother.
---Lupe2618 on 1/18/06


6. If you go to verse 10:20, "I was found by those who DID NOT seek Me; I was made manifest to those who DID NOT ask Me." I just wanted to show that no one can RESIST the will of God. If many are blinded it is the will of God. 11:7, "What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. Just as it is Written: God has given them a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see And ears that they should not hear To this very day."
---Lupe2618 on 1/18/06


5. If you continue to verse 30, "He is sayig that the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, (have attained) even the righteousness of faith;" Israel on the other hand did not seek it by faith, and were trying to do it by works. Why? "Because they stumbled at that stumbling stone." God layed that stumbling stone. The lost don't seek God. "How can they call on Him in whom they have not believed? (10:14).
---Lupe2618 on 1/18/06


4. v.21, "Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the SAME lump to make ONE vessel for HONOR and another for DISHONOR?" Paul mentions that God has the right to make one for honor and one for dishonor. v.22 "what if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering THE VESSELS OF WRATH PREPARED FOR DISTRUCTION, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the VESSELS OF MERCY, which He had PREPARED BEFOREHAND for glory,"
---Lupe2618 on 1/18/06


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3. we read verse 17, "For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth. Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who has RESISTED His Will? But indeed, "O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to Him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?"
---Lupe2618 on 1/18/06


2. the passages you gave are really great for if you go to Chapter 9:14, it is explained a little better. "What shall we say then, is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercey, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion. Now verse 16, "So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy." now as we continue to read these passages before entering chapter 10,
---Lupe2618 on 1/18/06


Hello bro. Bruce. Just had time to answer you. I believe what you believe as far as God gives the faith for salvation. I want you to think of this for a minute. If faith comes to an individual he has to be awake from his spiritual death. If the Holy Spirit awakens or quickens his heart He is born again. Regenerated. He is then given the faith to believe. He cannot have the faith to believe before he is awake, because he is dead. No one can have faith if he is dead.
---Lupe2618 on 1/18/06


PART ONE:
Lupe,
Perhaps the answer is in Romans 10:13-17, "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written... But they have not all obeyed the gospel... So then FAITH COMETH BY HEARING, and hearing by the word of God."
---Bruce5656 on 1/14/06


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PART TWO:
I have always believed that when the gospel is presented to an unsaved individual, there is an inner witness of the Spirt that leads to conviction. At that point, God will give the faith for salvation but the call and the offer of faith is not irrestible. The truth offered may be rejected or acted upon.
---Bruce5656 on 1/14/06


PART THREE:
If rejected, the conscience may be seared and no longer responsive to the message. If recieved, it can be said that the faith to believe came from God. The human agent is the one that took the message. What a great responsibility is ours to be the messenger who brings the good news (gospel).
---Bruce5656 on 1/14/06


5 Sounds to me that limited atonement is limited by God. And that whoever He wills, will come forward. Now, don't you think so? Now if our redemption itself comes from God, 2 Timothy 2:25,26; God may perhaps grant that they will repent and come to know the truth, and they may escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will." Here we read that God grants us the rependence. Can you comment? Thank you for your advice brother.
---Lupe2618 on 1/12/06


4. Matthew 20:28, " Just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many." He did not say for everyone. Galatians 1:3,4 states, "Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for our sins to deliver US from the present evil age, according to the WILL OF THE FATHER". John 6:44, No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day."
---Lupe2618 on 1/12/06


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4. Matthew 20:28, " Just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many." He did not say for everyone. Galatians 1:3,4 states, "Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for our sins to deliver US from the present evil age, according to the WILL OF THE FATHER". John 6:44, No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day."
---Lupe2618 on 1/12/06


3. And if the faith to believe comes from God, doesn't it seem that many hear but don't get it? Now of course if the person uses his own faith then it would be different but scripture tells us that the faith to believe comes from God. Then why do many go to hell? I really don't know how people get around that. If he is blind and dead spiritually and it takes God to awaken his spirit, wouldn't you think that God made the choice?
---Lupe2618 on 1/12/06


2. The reason I said that, is that I don't think that anyone can deny that salvation is conditioned on the person hearing and accepting the Gospel. I believe the modern church believes that. And if they have to hear and accept the Gospel but no one took it to them, this people are going to be lost forever. Now of course on this podium many believe we have enough within ourselves to make a commitment without hearing the gospel. Many do in churches today.
---Lupe2618 on 1/12/06


brother Bruce. You wrote so much I sure don't know where to start. Thanks for answering brother and thank you for always giving me advice. First of all, you didn't answer my question and wrote something I didn't ask. I know what limited atonement is very well brother, I was trying to see if you considered there was limited atonement since you said you didn't believe it. I gave you something that is limited. In other words God choose who would get it and who wouldn't.
---Lupe2618 on 1/12/06


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Isaiah 64:6 " But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." We are made righteous only by Jesus blood. Romans 5:19 "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."
---wes on 1/12/06


PART TWO:
Lupe,
First an unsolicited word of advice. You said: I guess you don't want to answer. Philippians 2:3, "but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves." I think we should be giving each other the benefit of the doubt. In fact, when I wrote my last post, only the first part of yours was there. There was no question to answer.
---Bruce5656 on 1/12/06


PART TWO:
(Please take this as intended. If you could see me now you would see the friendly smile on my face as I write this.) :) <---This just does not express the same thing.

Now as for your question: Now wouldn't you say that it is limited in some way? That for some reason God did not make possible for those to be saved?
---Bruce5656 on 1/12/06


PART THREE:
The definition of Limited Atonement is not that somehow the benefit of the cross is limited to the extent that the message is limited in its scope geographically.
---Bruce5656 on 1/12/06


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PART FOUR:
strict Reformed and Presbyterian traditions define LIMITED ATONEMENT as the theory that the death of the Lord Jesus Christ on Calvary's cross was strictly LIMITED in any and all of its aspects ONLY TO THE ELECT or saved ones, or believers in Christ. It had nothing whatsoever to do with the unsaved or the non-elect people of the world. D.A. Waite
---Bruce5656 on 1/12/06


PART FIVE:
In the sense that you mention, the limitation of the spread of the gospel, yes there is a limitation there but not in the same sense of Calvins Limited Atonement. According to Paul, God is just and cannot be considered anything but just in his dealing with men.

Romans 2:11-16, "For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law:
---Bruce5656 on 1/12/06


PART SIX:
and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
---Bruce5656 on 1/12/06


PART SEVEN:
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel."
---Bruce5656 on 1/12/06


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PART EIGHT:
Why did God not choose to send Jesus to be the sacrifice at the beginning when Adam and Eve sinned? Only God Himself knows. But this does not contradict 1 John 2:2, "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and NOT FOR OURS ONLY, but also for the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD."
---Bruce5656 on 1/12/06


Lupe ... there is also a scripture, I believe, but do not know where, that says something like "Those who have not heard will be judged in accordance with the light that they have received" That would deal with your damnation of those who have not heard. Maybe someone else knows the passage?
But you need to answer Bruce's passages to prove that God has created billions of people purely so He can send them to hell.
---alan8869_of_UK on 1/12/06


Bruce, Hello, you have not answered my question. You give Scriptures that speak about the whole world but as you know many are going to hell and have not the possibility to hear the Gospel, and Scripture tells us that everyone is condemned already. Are you saying they are not? Or that they are not in sin and so don't need the gospel? Its a simple question. I didn't even bring anything else up. I guess you don't want to answer.
---Lupe2618 on 1/12/06


PART ONE:
Here are just a few reasons not to believe in Limited Atonement:
1 John 2:2, "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and NOT FOR OURS ONLY, but also for the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD."
Revelation 22:17, "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And WHOSOEVER WILL, let him take the water of life freely."<
---Bruce5656b on 1/12/06


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PART TWO:
Isaiah 53:5-6, "But he was wounded... he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; ... All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us ALL."
Matthew 11:28, "Come unto me, ALL YE that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."
John 1:29, "...Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of THE WORLD."
---Bruce5656b on 1/12/06


3. His purpose. Instead, they were left in gross darkness and unbelief. Now wouldn't you say that it is limited in some way? That for some reason God did not make possible for those to be saved? Just something for you to consider that is all. If the theory were true, that Christ died for all men and that the benefits of His death are actually applied to all men we would expect to find that God had made some provision for the Gospel to be communicated to all men.
---Lupe2618 on 1/12/06


2. of Himself. Jesus confined His public ministry almost exclusively to the Apostles and forbade His disciples to go among others until after the day of Pentecost(Matt.10:5, 6: 28:19; Mark 16:15; Acts 1:4). Multitudes were left with no chance to hear the Gospel, and consequently died in their sins. If God had intended to save them undoubtedly He would have sent them the means of salvation. If He had chosen to Christianize India and China a thousand years ago, He most certainly could have accomplished
---Lupe2618 on 1/12/06


Bro. Bruce, I think you did a great job explaining depravity. I also read where you cannot believe Limited Atonement. I would like for you to just consider this, You mentioned that salvation is not limited but Scripture has so many passages that speak that it is. We see that in all ages the greater portion of mankind has been left destitue even of the external means of grace. For centuries the Jews, who were very few in number, were the only people to whom God was pleased to make any special revelation
---Lupe2618a on 1/12/06


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Molly,
I misunderstood your previous comment. (Upon re-reading it and in the light of your present post, I see your point.) I agree wholeheartedly. What really gets me about the Calvinist theology is the concept that since only some will/can be saved, they are the only ones Jesus died for (Limited Atonement). Unbelievable.
---Bruce5656 on 1/11/06


part 2: I fully realize that we are all born into sin, and we ALL need a savior, and that the message of the gospel is to alert ALL of mankind that they are in this condition -THERE IS HOPE, AND A WAY OUT OF THAT SINFULNESS, AND HIS NAME IS JESUS! AND EVERYONE THAT HAS EVER BEEN BORN, CAN HAVE THAT OPORTUNITY TO ACCEPT OR REJECT HIM.
---Molly on 1/11/06


Bruce, I know every one of these scriptures, and what they mean. I did NOT say, or even imply, that we are born sinless. I SAID, we have the oportunity to be a decent human being. This tulip mess says that some will never have that opportunity. I never said, or even implied, that it is enough if we just "learn to be better people".
---Molly on 1/11/06


PART ONE:
Molly,

This is NOT a defense of Calvins TULIP. I agree with you that it is not correct. But that does not mean that there is no truth in it at all. Specifically, the Total depravity of man.

True, everyone is not crazy (your definition of depraved.) However, that is not what depraved means it means: marked by immorality; deviating from what is considered right or proper or good
---Bruce5656 on 1/11/06


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PART TWO:
Children are innocent in the sense of not being responsible/accountable but they are not born sinless. That sinless state was lost in Eden. The sin nature is not learned behavior. When Adam and Eve sinned, they, being the entire human race at the time, contaminated the rest of the human race with that sin. Rom 6:23, 1 Cor 15:22, "For as in Adam all die."The sinful nature is passed on to us by procreation.
---Bruce5656 on 1/11/06


PART THREE:
Mans seed + womans egg = child born in sin. HOW and to what extent that is expressed may very well be molded by our upbringing but we are born with it.

Psalms 51:5, "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. "Jesus came from Marys egg but he had no (human) father so the sin nature was not transmitted to him. Jesus is the SECOND ADAM. (1 Cor 15:22,45)
---Bruce5656 on 1/11/06


PART FOUR:
This is WHY Jesus HAD to be born of a virgin, so he would not inherit the sin nature.

You say that Every baby born into this world has the oportunity to be a decent human being, What is the scriptural basis for this statement?

Paul very clearly teaches that this is not so. Rom 3:10-12 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
---Bruce5656 on 1/11/06


PART FIVE:
They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

The mission of the Church, is not to bring a social gospel to the world. You can be a better person if you try. But to let them know that they are in fact lost. They are not stupid list of hell-bound loosers but they are bound for hell if they do not believe in Jesus Christ.
---Bruce5656 on 1/11/06


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PART SIX:
John 3:17-18, "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
---Bruce5656 on 1/11/06


PART SEVEN:
The way to a better life, and a saved eternity, is not found in simply learning to be better people. It is found in being forgiven of our sin natures and set free from the law of sin and death Rom 8:2. This is true for all people of all cultures not matter what their lot in life or what their upbringing.
---Bruce5656 on 1/11/06


pt 3: That's the importance of us as Christians, taking the message of the gospel to the world- those that may not have ever been taught about someone who can turn their life around, those that may have never been told that Jesus loves them, and has a PLAN FOR EACH AND EVERY LIFE, and they are NOT on some stupid list of hell-bound loosers, but their name, ANY name, CAN be written in the Lamb's book of life! And that is what the word of GOD says, I don't care WHAT Calvin or anybody else says!
---Molly on 1/10/06


pt 2: Everyone has the capability of being decent, but not everyone chooses to be so, or sometimes they are just raised by indecent people who don't teach them any better. Every baby born into this world has the oportunity to be a decent human being, it just depends on who the adults are in their life that are responsible for guiding and teaching them.
---Molly on 1/10/06


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If that's what it stands for, then TULIP is a bunch of hogwash! And totally contradictory to the word of God, by the way. No, unsaved mankind is NOT totally depraved, which means crazy, to put it simply. We ALL start out as innocent babies- we LEARN things like hatred, selfishness, racism, and all sorts of evil. Not everyone is taught or adopts this kind of behavior. It's called being civilized.
---Molly on 1/10/06


(II Peter 3:9)
...not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

God is not willing, desiring, or wanting any to perish, but He is willing, desiring, and wanting all to come to repentance through Jesus. Repentance mean to return to the high place. Pent is the same as penthouse. So God is saying repent or return to the high place in communion with Me.
---Rickey on 1/10/06


No. Reason being is that salvation is more than getting saved from going to hell. Salvation comes from a greek word, Soza, that means deliverance, preservation, healing, & prosperity. Jesus came that we might have ZOE or the God-kind of life.(John 10:10) We are to have heaven on earth & then have heaven in heaven. God doesn't have a list of who will & won't get saved. He knows who will, but is still giving others the chance to get saved. It is totally up to them though.(II Peter 3:9)
---Rickey on 1/10/06


Totally depraved is not possible. None of you who believe in it was totally depraved. You were loved enough by God (what a blessing)and had enough brains(another gift) to say yes to Jesus. The unsaved is depraved of salvation and spiritual things. No one is completely useless. Every one has some good and value. God must think so or else He would have left us to to go to hell.
---john on 1/10/06


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Part 2:
I - irresistable grace: God sends the Holy Spirit only those on the saved list which removes their depraved nature inherited from Adam and creates within them a saving faith in Christ. The Holy Spirit thereafter guides them directly to understand and correctly interpret the Bible.

P - perservance of saints: A child of God once saved, cannot be lost.
This is Calvinism!
---Fred_S. on 1/10/06


T - total depravity: babies inherit the sin of Adam and are totally depraved and therefore unable to respond to the gospel message of Christ.

U - uncondidtioal election:(or predestination) God had a master list of those who will be saved and those who will go to hell before creation in Gen 1:1. The list is unchangeable.

L - limited atonement:Christ did not die for all men but only those on the "saved list"
---Fred_S. on 1/10/06


Herb ... I do not get it either.
---alan8869_of_UK on 1/10/06


Lets see Mima, man is spiritually dead. blind to the things of God. Slave to sin. So he loves it. Walks to his lord, the prince of the air-Satan. What do you think brother? is he depraved or not?
---Lupe2618 on 1/10/06


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The natural man does not recieve the things of the Spirit but he is not totally deprived because God loves him and Jesus died for him too. The rain falls on the just and the unjust. The lost man can give to the poor. He can clothe the naked and visit the sick. How can he be totally deprived when he does those things? Hitler had millions of Jews killed because they were (so called)totally deprived and useless. That is a false teaching.
---john on 1/9/06


Bro. Herb thank you for your answer.I had never heard that before .
---Darlene_1 on 1/9/06


I don't understand, Herb? What's Calvinism got to do with the question asked? I can't follow this TULIP thing.
---Ann5758 on 1/9/06


Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
---a_servant on 1/9/06


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Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
---a_servant on 1/9/06


Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

Ps 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
---a_servant on 1/9/06


TULIP stands for the 5 Points of Calvinism.

T Total depravity YES

U I for get this one

L Limited Attonement NO

I Irresistable Grace NO

P Preservation of the saints YES
---Rev_Herb on 1/9/06


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