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Sprayed With Fly Killer

At a charismatic service I attended young people were dancing in the window ledges and on chairs and one of the musicians was rolling on the stage on his back, legs kicking in the air, looking very much like a fly that had just been sprayed with fly killer. What sort of witness is this to visitors?

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 ---M.A. on 1/31/06
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Make a joyful noise ....
---Nellah on 3/9/06


Pat, you are obviously referring to the end result of the fly killer. In my question I was referring to the intermediate effect. Huge difference but neither one good.
---M.A. on 2/27/06


Some people at traditional churches are so lifeless looking in their worship they look like they had been sprayed with fly killer too.
---Pat on 2/26/06


I would love to be able to dance for the Lord. My legs don't move as good as they used to. This should not be.
---J_P on 2/9/06


I went to a special service and I did not understand it at first, but then again I didn't know much then, either.
---Lynn on 2/9/06




I know, but all I'm saying is be careful on how we call things. This is just one person's opinion. The rest of us were not there.
---John on 2/9/06


I get a kick out of going to a hockey game and seeing the excitement there when the team scores a goal. It looks like they all got sprayed with fly killer. LOL. Some are up on their feet waving, some are jumping up and down, some clap loudly and yell and scream. Some just sit there dignified without emotions. The last ones are either from the other team or they don't understand what is happening.
---john on 2/9/06


The excitement generated by people in some churches draws some in (far more so that the churches some describe as 'dead') but it will not keep them in unless they hear good solid preaching of the Word. That is the only way that they will find out what the others are excited about. The church I attend most regularly would be described at 'dead' by many of you but, on most Sundays, you would not hear more biblically sound preaching anywhere else. Our exhuberance often matches our personality.
---M.A. on 2/9/06


John, controlled excitement is good - acting like crazy makes me suspicious. I prefer to see a service conducted in dignity.
---A_Catholic on 2/9/06


Excitement is a better witness to strangers than deadness. If praise is like a funeral it will drive people away faster than if it's a celebration.
---john on 2/9/06




Preach it DoryLory!
---Molly on 2/8/06


Correction: Pt2 of my last post should say "the devil DOES NOT worship God" -- not that he does. Sorry, my mistake.
---DoryLory on 2/8/06


Pt1
Whose standard determines what is decent and in order? In his day, Elvis Presley caused quite an uproar with his swivelling hips. How many here would accept Elvis today? I dare say, if he were singing gospel songs, most of us would welcome Elvis ... even into our churches. This is why the Bible says, do not set yourself up as judge (Matthew 7:1). Because you are not qualified to set the standard.
---DoryLory on 2/8/06


Pt2
What happened to Miriam when she criticized Moses? (Numbers 12) Or Michal when she became offended by David's dance (2 Samuel 6:12-23)? Or how about the Israelites who wandered around in the desert for 40 years and wearied the Lord with their grumbling and complaining? Apparently God takes this judging business pretty serious. In an earlier post (on this blog) I proved through scripture that the devil does worship God. Some of you here are playing God by trying to set the standard.
---DoryLory on 2/8/06


I can't understand how people "praise God" by acting like loonies. I see a lot of theatrical nonsense in an attempt to draw audience. I see hypocrisy and craziness but no praise to God. Did Christ ever do that?
---A_Catholic on 2/8/06


To A catholic, You are no one to tell anybody to be in a mental institution. A true Christian would not write what you wrote.
---Pat on 2/8/06


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Maybe you, a catholic should be there. You already have enough curses in your church, you don't need more on YOU!
---ex-catholic on 2/8/06


MA, that musician was in the wrong place. He should have been in a mental institution.
---A_Catholic on 2/8/06


Thanks for that John, I appreciate it. God bless.
---M.A. on 2/6/06


M.A., Please forgive me. I guess I was a little rough on you. The most important thing is that we not only reveal the truth but that we do it in love. The Lord bless you.
---John on 2/6/06


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I'm not the only one signing in with initials and it doesn't bother anyone that others do so, so why should it bother anyone that I do? If I knew everything I'd be contributing to every question asked. I do so only when I feel that I can add something but my opinions are not set in stone. Take them or leave them. I read all questions and many answers, from which I learn much. I consider no-one here a 'know-all' but I do find some slightly offensive.
---M.A. on 2/6/06


Anonymous: I'm glad you're okay. Please take me to task any time you believe my comments are off the wall (unbiblical or just plain rude). My feet are made of clay & I'd appreciate the help. :) Likewise (with your permission) I hope I can do the same for you if it seems you've jumped track? Peace!
---Leon on 2/6/06


SlgGuy: I sympathize with you regarding the experience related. I've also suffered the horror of biblically out of balance, just plain weird people -- Simonites. They are everywhere! This is why I have a passion for stressing the use of the Bible as the magnifying glass for all worship experiences. I'm glad you're into studying the word of God. Peace. :)
---Leon on 2/6/06


Leon, you did not 'hurt my feelings'. I was simply frustrated because you kept putting words in my mouth, implying that I was saying things that I did NOT say. Thank you for your 'help', but I'm not new to this thing, by far. And SigGuy, one bad apple don't spoil the whole bunch. Just cause you had an encounter with a fruitcake (and there are MANY out there, just keep reading this blog site), don't buy into the lie that ALL spiritual gifts & manifestations are false.
---anonymous on 2/6/06


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I was raised around some charismatics. They had a fellow with 'gifts' who would come to your home and discern books that were 'evil.' I was told I did not understand this as I was not 'full of the spirit.' Paul says test the spirits. So, knowing thie fellow 'full of the spirit' was coming, I switched book covers feomquestionable books to 'acceptable books.' When he came and did his magic, I for sure found out what he was full of....Paul was right! That was the end of my dealings with charasmatics.
---SlgGuy on 2/6/06


M.A. Be encouraged... (Matt. 5:11-12)
---Leon on 2/5/06


If I hurt your feelings, I sincerely apologize. I'm just trying to speak the truth in love, not to personally attack you; but, to build you up in the faith.

Peace. :-)
---Leon on 2/5/06


This is a true story. Years ago when I first got saved my wife and I went into a church with my friend Tony and the service was similar to what M A is discribing. My friend got freaked out and left, but after that the power of the Lord came down and my wife was healed in that service. She described it as being in front of the throne of God. I saw this healing with my own eyes! I will never forget it.
---Peter on 2/5/06


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M.A., You sound like you know everything, and now that Bob brought it up, why are you afraid to give your real name? My real name is John. Now that was easy! I like my name.
---John on 2/5/06


Gary, what does this mean "Have you had council before?" Do you mean 'counselling' and BEFORE what? Bob, why is my name important? John "You don't know everything." You are absolutely correct there but I wasn't aware that I had made that claim. I thought the whole idea of the blogs was to share ideas and agree or disagree as we all choose. I think that can be done without being personal or insulting.
---M.A. on 2/5/06


M.A. - What is your real name?
---Bob on 2/4/06


Show me where I said, or even hinted, that we could fight the devil in our own strength. Why are you twisting my words so badly? I NEVER discounted reading and learning the word of God, as you seem to be implying. BUT, why must YOU discount the gift of discernment operating in a Spirit filled Christian?! I don't think you believe there IS such a thing- based on YOUR comments.
---anonymous on 2/4/06


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M A . You sound like you have been getting too much fly killer. Why are you bringing this up? This is a really big deal to you. Have you had council before?
---Gary on 2/4/06


M.A., There are a lot of people that think that they have discernment but they don't. It's just their emotions getting in the way. I have been saved for quite awhile now and I have seen alot concerning of what goes on in churches and the spititual realm. Take good advice and be careful. You don't know everything.
---John on 2/4/06


Anon': The fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, gentleness, goodness, long-suffering, faith, meekness & temperance (sobriety). I don't know which one(s) you are operating in based on your comments. Peace! :-)

John: What do you mean "speaking against the Holy Spirit"? On Pentecost, the disciples had previously received the word from Jesus (3 years) & they testified to that fact. The biblical pattern is word first, spirit second. Not spirit & maybe some word.

So true M.A.!
---Leon on 2/4/06


2. The gift of discernment is what tells some Christians that what they are witnessing in a particular church is not of God, but when they dare to air this view they are told that it is THEY who are in danger of speaking against the Holy Spirit. I think we should ALL remember that a movement of 'the spirit' is not always the HOLY spirit at work. There are other spirits out there trying to deceive even the elect.
---M.A. on 2/4/06


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1. Many people are happy to tell of how the Holy Spirit guides them in worship and use this, sometimes, to justify the 'anything goes' kind of worship. I think we should also bear in mind though, that the Holy Spirit gives us discernment and those with the gift of discernment are using 'a gift of the spirit' just as powerfully as those who say that THEIR gift of tongues (or whatever) is of the Holy Spirit.
---M.A. on 2/4/06


HelLOOOOoo!!! Did I SAY that I believed we could fight the devil in our own strength? I don't think so. You obviously are totally incapable of understanding what I ACTUALLY said, which was nowhere near what you just accused me of saying. Nevermind.
---anonymous on 2/3/06


I guess to me, the final prognosis would be - what effect is this having on the rest of their lives. Purpose of the Holy Spirit was for witness and power to live a Holy life. Are these peoples' lives truly demonstrating the power of the Holy Spirit 24/7 because of their experience or is this just a fantastical demonstration for the occassion? Personally I have known too many who get revved up during worhsip service but live like the world the rest of the week.
---marya4598 on 2/3/06


MA and Leon, you don't think that on the day of Penticost that it seemed like chaos to some? You can't please everyone. I personally don't worship how M A witnessed but I still dare not criticize. Like I said, you don't know everything and you should not criticize spiritual things. If you don't understand than don't say anything. God will deal with any false activity concerning His church. YOU DON'T WANT TO BE IN DANGER OF SPEAKING AGAINST THE HOLY SPIRIT! That's all I'm saying.
---John on 2/3/06


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Anon': When one studies the Bible (2 Tim 2:15) the Holy Spirit (Comforter) teaches by "word" equiping Christians for spiritual battle against "the biggest, baddest [chief] demon of them all', i.e., the devil.

"IT IS WRITTEN!" (Matt. 4:1-11; Deut. 6:16, 8:3; Ex. 34:14; Jn. 14: 16-18, 14:23-26, 15:26-27)

You'll lose every time the devil attacks you if you try to bind him in your own strength. The only way to resist him (Jas. 4:7) is to stand boldly on God's word!
---Leon on 2/3/06


ChildofGod, Charisma means a power or ability to influence large numbers of people. Although it is used as a power for good in many churches it is also used by many salemen and charlatans. Not all 'charismatic' churches are being guided by the Holy Spirit.
---M.A. on 2/3/06


A pentecostal relative commented on the diversity of churches and I said that I felt God had provided different types of church because we are so varied in our personalities, therefore some of us fit here and some there. She was horrified and said that "division is not of God and as the end nears there will only be ONE church and that is scriptural". It was interesting to note that the ONE church, in her mind, will be pentecostal!
---p.m. on 2/3/06


Emcee ... you refer to "Jesus time" In Jesus' time on earth, the music system was totally different from that which we have had since the Middle Ages & the great Mozart, Bruckner, Palestrina masses, and all the music which adorns both Catholic and non-Catholic worship would have been foreign to His earthly ears.
And surely Jesus' time is now, just as much as 2000 years ago?
---alan8869_of_UK on 2/3/06


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OK, lets do what the Bereans did, study. The word praise has several meanings in the Bible.
Adoration, thanksgiving,to leap and spring about, make strong with excitement, rejoice, boast, rave, celebrate, clamourous, spontaneous, foolish, to dance and whirl, honour, and bow in reverence.
---john on 2/2/06


pt 2: Do any of you honestly think that in Heaven, the main activity (which WILL be worship), is going to be as divided and taylored to YOUR individual tastes as you all expect it to be down here? Think again. An old friend of mine by the name of Ronny Hinson said it best: Once, when confronted by an old woman who told him "it just gets beside me how you folks act in church!" he replied, "Honey, if it ever got INside of you, instead of BEside you, then you'd know why we do!"
---anonymous on 2/2/06


I find it sad that any time this subject comes up, it's always the same thing: WE like the old hyms, WE like the 'new' stuff. WE dance. WE think dancing is of the devil. WE like to jump, shout, and run. WE like to be quiet and reverent. Folks, newsflash: Praise, worship- IS NOT ABOUT US.
---anonymous on 2/2/06


pt 3: The devil is not scared of how much scripture we know- he knows more than all of us combined! He is scared of the power that dwells within a Christian who knows who they are in Christ, and have submitted themselves to the power of the Holy Spirit. It's the only way we can be successful in spiritual warfare. Also, the word itself says that it is THE SPIRIT who reveals the word to us.
---anonymous on 2/2/06


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Pt 2: I'm not trying to be hateful, but you are unlearned in the ways of the operation and demonstration of the power of the Holy Spirit. Yes, of course learning the word is VERY important. BUT, there are situations we are going to run up against where we don't have time to look up a scripture.
---anonymous on 2/2/06


In Jesus's time he would have said my fathers house is a house or prayer & you have made it into a den of disco dancing thieves & may be a few more choice words & would have driven them out-- but then again was this His fathers house?
---Emcee on 2/2/06


Well, I tell you what Leon, Next time you come up against a religious demon, (the biggest and baddest of them all by the way), you come back here and tell us how you had time to 'look up scripture' to tell you if what was going on was of God or of the devil, then explain how that devil was intimidated by all 'the scripture' you knew.
---anonymous on 2/2/06


I am concerned with your word choice: Charismatic, meaning a type of Christianity that emphasizes personal religious experience and divinely inspired powers, as of healing, prophecy, and the gift of tongues. IF a church is truly charismatic that is a gift of the Lord and cannot be called demonic in any form. The question is, does dancing on window ledges make a church charismatic. If the answer is yes, then that is what we all need to be looking for.
---ChildofGod on 2/2/06


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Just as God created people with individual personalities and temperaments, churches also have their own personality and temperament. Many Christians are blessed by hymns, others are blessed by the choruses of the 80's, some prefer Hill music, others like Vineyard, etc. etc. The key is that we each have to find the church where we fit. If the personality of the church, or the style of worship is going to offend you, don't go there. Find the church where you belong and be blessed in Jesus' name.
---DoryLory on 2/2/06


Lynna ... I like theold hymns and a few of the new songs, but would never jump about and dance, But when it does happen in my church, there is a feeling of joy as people dance. After all, David danced !!
But I think I would find it very disconcerting if people started to climb on the ledges, or lie on their backs and like the fly!
---alan8869_of_UK on 2/2/06


And MA there is a great message in some of those old hymns, and a message of the whole salvation story. Music does reinforce one's faith And as to the new songs ... well for a different generation, different music will speak.
---alan8869_of_UK on 2/2/06


MA "No one learns about their Saviour through going and hearing and seeing all these things described" I think you dont understand the full effect that music can have on people. I know when I was Converted, as we called it in those days, there was some very effective hymn singing whin had an undoubted effect on me, and was part of the message. And now, the singing of hymns to God raises my spirits.
---alan8869_of_UK on 2/2/06


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Jesus and his disciples did not act "crazy". Jesus cast out devils out of people. Mark 5:1-15
Leon, I agree God wants order in the church.
1Corinthians 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
---Ulrika on 2/2/06


Simple...did Jesus or his Apostles do this stuff?
We are to emulate Jesus in word and deed, so there you go. The only crazy stuff in the NT was done by people affected by demons. That said, I would not judge, but pray for them. Do what you believe is correct according to your belief as you hae been taught by the Holy Spirit of God.
---Lynna on 2/2/06


2. There is an extremely uncomfortable feeling in some of these churches and there is something seriously wrong when praise and worship (so called,) loud noise and thrashing around are preferred to sitting and hearing God's Word. No one learns about their Saviour through going and hearing and seeing all these things described. Newcomers might enjoy it and return but if there is nothing taught there is nothing to learn so they will go home as empty as they arrived
---M.A. on 2/2/06


John if someone, not accustomed to charismatic type services, visits such a church several things there will seem strange. I allow for differences if I visit other churches but what I described here and what others have described seems much more like chaos that order. I really do believe that the devil has infiltrated some churches so that what is bad is now being called good and those who 'just do not understand' are told they are the ones missing out.
---M.A. on 2/2/06


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Anonymous: The only way to be Spirit-filled is to be word-filled. Apart from what the Spirit of God says, in the Bible, we have no way of knowing just what spirit is in operation. Christians are to be like the Berean believers who "judged" thru scripture (Acts 17:10-12).

John: That's right, none of us know everything. That's why Omniscient (ALL KNOWING) God has given us balanced guidance, i.e., His Bible.
---Leon on 2/2/06


I cannot tell you if everyone at this charismatic service was genuine but anonymous may be right. You can't put God in a box. In other words just because it may seem strange to us doesn't mean it's foolishness. In the new testiment when the Holy Spirit fell on the saints some thought they were drunk and they left. They missed out, will you? The carnel cannot discern spititual things. Be careful how you criticize God's methods. You don't know everything!
---John on 2/2/06


Yes, the Body of Christ must conduct worship "decently & in order" (1 Cor. 14:40), in a "well balanced" (Pv. 11:1), manner. God's church "DOES NOT" roll on the floor & bite furniture, etc.

Spirit un-checked by God's truth (word) is out of balance, i.e., demonic. Truth apart from God's Spirit is out of balance, i.e., legalism.

Satan's age old strategy has always been & continues to be DIVIDE 'N' CONQUER. The Church of Jesus Christ must adhere to John 4:23-24.
---Leon on 2/2/06


Pt1
I question dancing on window ledges for safety reasons. Other than that, I personally try not to criticize any type of worship I'm not familiar with ... lest it cause unfruitfulness as was the case with Michal when King David danced himself out of his clothes. (2 Samuel 6:12-23).

My husband is a worship leader and, though he's never danced himself out of his clothes, when the Spirit comes on him he will sometimes twitch and jerk and do other things deemed "inappropriate" by some.
---DoryLory on 2/1/06


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Pt2
I can promise you that it isn't the devil ... for one thing the devil doesn't worship God. For another, the Bible says that God inhabits the praises of His people (Psalm 22:3). When you're praising God the devil doesn't stick around. According to the Bible, praise and worship causes the devil to be silenced and to fall back and perish (Psalm 8:2-3 and 9:2-3). So, yes, use discernment as has already been mentioned, but also be cautious of criticism.
---DoryLory on 2/1/06


pt 3: God will not fit into our box. I have had to change MY mind on quite a few things over the last several years- things I used to tag as 'not of God' because "we've never done it that way BEFORE". Don't discount the manifestation simply because a visiting non-believer rejected it. They reject quiet, reverant alter invitations with "just as I am" softly playing on an organ as well.
---anonymous on 2/1/06


pt 2: Be careful in judging these things. Just because it is strange to you or you've never seen it before does not automatically mean it is demonic. Remember, when the Holy Ghost fell on those in the upper room, people accused them of being drunk. The same thing has happened all down through history in every move of God. Satan tries to counterfiet every holy thing, and he does his job well. But we must not try to sort these things out into categories by what WE THINK is right or wrong.
---anonymous on 2/1/06


There have been a lot of interesting views on this blog about this subject. These things are manifestations. But, are they manifestations of the power of the Holy Spirit, or are they demonic? Actually, there are both kinds happening in the church world today. When the word said to try the spirits to see if they are of God, it did not mean to judge the action with earthly eyes. If you are Spirit filled, the Spirit will alert you if something is not of God.
---anonymous on 2/1/06


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King David did some pretty hefty praising too (out of order) and got into trouble for it by his religious wife. I wonder if she labeled him immoral for his display of praise too?
---john on 2/1/06


Any church with only old people in the congregation will die out if we cannot get the young in. But if we attract the young by mindless gimmicks they will either not stay for long, stay for the wrong reasons or will, in time, change that church beyond recognition once the older generation are gone. That church will then no longer be a real church but more like a club which has nothing to offer anyone seriously seeking Jesus.
---M.A. on 2/1/06


A good, well balanced church will cater for all age groups, accepting that there are differences in taste of music between the generations (and many other things) but the word of God will still be preached and there will be a period of time in every service where everyone is expected to sit and listen. A time of prayer and a time for preaching. Many young people today cannot bear silence and are given licence to 'do your own thing', just let the spirit lead you' (yes, but which spirit is it?)
---M.A. on 2/1/06


I think churches like this attract the young because of the noise and exuberance and other young people. They are not attracted to Jesus. I know a number of churches like this and on the Sundays when a serious preacher gets up to speak the young people all leave. They can only stick a whole service if it is conducted according to their wishes. Many of these churches have lost virtually all their older congregation who cannot stand the noise for one thing but are also appalled at the lack of discipline.
---M.A. on 2/1/06


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That's just disrespectful in church, sounds weird! I go to a pretty lively church, but NOTHING like that!
(Got us again Mod!)

Moderator - :)
---NVBarbara on 2/1/06


Stuff like that happens quite often in our church. We get kind of over excited sometimes. Please forgive us for our excitement. But we'we been at the other end of the scale when nothing happens except a bunch of religious activety. Newcommers are sometimes shocked but most of them get right in with the excitement. Dead religion is a far worse example to visitors.
---john on 2/1/06


Strange as it may be but every female I have ever dealt with who practiced this type of activity had a corresponding sexual impurity in her life. That is every one. Some of the men had the same problem but men may have been better at hiding it. The Bible said do things decently and in order. Did you see that at any of these events? I haven't.
---Elder on 1/31/06


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