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No Baptism Then No Heaven

Many churches, Catholic, Lutheran, Church of Christ and perhaps others that I haven't listed believe in "Baptismal Regeneration". This is the believe that you must be baptized in order to go to heaven. Is this true? What do you believe concerning this?

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Any one that believe that Jesus died for his sins was buried and rose from the grave is saved.Then Jesus command you to be baptize.
---lionel on 11/13/07

By denomination I'm a Baptist and I don't believe you have to be baptized to be saved. I base my belief on Acts 10:44-48. The Holy Ghost fell on Cornelius and all those that were in his household before they were baptized.
---Catherine on 11/13/07

Bruce, I'm not sure if my duplicate post was my fault? Are you saying you *do* believe that preaching the Gospel is a means of grace?
---Tina5349 on 9/25/07

To Rachel [with the three tee pee's]:
I'm always glad to share a page with You.
Your Family has Felt The Touch, too...

---Reiter on 11/4/06

Apparently, there's three Rachels now.
To Rachel Reiter, we shared the same personal page for a long time. I can tell that Christians have offered you conversion in the past. Kim's ministry has touched you in a way that no other Christian could. Rachel^^^
---Rachel^^^ on 11/3/06


Thank you for your encouragement, but I already know that I am Loved and Accepted just the way I am without having to go through a religious conversion.

---Reiter on 11/3/06

kent: Yes, our sins are forgiven under the New Covenant. Forgivness does not mean sin is dead. Paul said, I die daily. When we walk in the spirit, we don't give way to the flesh. The Holy Spirit keeps our old man here at all times read Romans 8:13
Peace to you too!
---kathr4453 on 11/2/06

It was Christ,"Who His own self bare our sins in His body upon the tree, "that we," having "died" unto sins, might live unto righteousness" by whose stripes we are healed," 1 Peter 2:24.
---lee_1 on 11/2/06

Jason, I found you again on this blog. I totally agree with you about hell. It isn't until we realize we are going to hell that we recognize the sins we have cost against God. Recognizing our behavior against God, is what makes up repent. If we don't have that repentance, than we feel we have done nothing wrong, and it follow's, why reach out to God? Hell is real, but no one like's to talk about it. Our whole salvation is from that wrath of God.
---lisa on 11/2/06

kathr, will you be charged with sin anymore, then they are dead, read Hebrews chapter 9 and 10.
Peace be with you
---Kent on 11/2/06

Rachel, maybe the love , security, blessings of God and the promise of eternal life in Heaven will entice you. the Holy Spirit is calling you, other wise you would not have these questions. the devil is going to give you a million reasons why you should not get saved, don't listen, there is NOTHING you have done or are doing that God won't forgive, ask Jesus into your heart right now! the next minute could be too late.
Peace be with you
---rachel on 11/2/06

To unbelievers the Bible seems intimidating. It isn't until the Holy Spirit indwells one that they can fully understand it's truths by Faith. Hell isn't fun to talk about but we can't wish it away. Believe it or not, it's still there.
---Jason on 11/2/06

Reiter, (or Rachel?) I have found out that neither does anyone when the fear is of something not present. Humans ignore what they cannot relate to even when they know it to be true of the future. Many times people will say the sinner's prayer after a scary message about hell (which are good), but many of them won't find the reason of love to serve God, and it won't take one week for fear to wear off.
---Okebaram on 11/1/06

The image of hell provided by Helen and Jason is rather intimidating. I suppose that would be a good enough reason to convert to christianity--fear of hell, that is. But, I don't make important life decisions, rooted in fear.

---Reiter on 11/1/06

Helen, to Reiter well put. Actually, if one does a proper word study they will find that Hell and all the other names for the punishment of the lost are mentioned more than Heaven. God wanted us to know about it. That's for sure.
---jason on 11/1/06

(1.)Dear Jason, You asked "Do you not believe that those coming out of Great Tribulation and those born during the Millenium must be judged?". Jason , the Christian's coming out of the 7- Year Great Tribulation Period(which concludes with Armageddon) will go into the the 1,000 year Perfect Age, they don't have to face God for their past sins(Jesus at the judgment of Calvary took care of that).
---Mrs._Morgan on 11/1/06

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(2.)We know that both saint and sinner's from the "sheep nation's"(the nations good to Israel, the Jews) will go into the 1,000 year Perfect Age . The Word states that some don't desire to Obey Jesus during that time, and God will not allow rain to come down on their crops(Zechariah 14:16-19). It's hard to believe that even when Jesus is "physically here" reigning(people can look into His loving Eyes) and still they don't want to SERVE Him.
---Mrs._Morgan on 11/1/06

(3.)Some will not be saved, they will obey Jesus only because they have no other choice, but they won't have Him in their hearts(Jesus will rule over those with a rod of Iron), this is why satan will be able to gather them together at the end of the 1,000 year Perfect Age(when God releases satan for a season).
---Mrs._Morgan on 11/1/06

(4.)We know what will happen to the unsaved who lived during the 1,000 Perfect Age, they face the Great White Throne Judgment, at the end of those 1,000 years. Jason, The Word doesn't mention that salvation will be offered during the 1,000 Perfect Age, I find that interesting(we will have to wait and see if this is the case or not). There are some things we just don't know about the 1,000 year Perfect Age , once again, we will have to just wait and see, concerning those things.
---Mrs._Morgan on 11/1/06

(5.)Jason, I'm not sure if people will be marrying, having children, The Bible mentions children being in the Perfect Age(Isaiah 11:8), but will those children be born during that time(the Perfect Age) or during the Great Tribulation Period? We know some people will have glorified bodies and other's not. I say again, we will have to just wait and see brother! It's only a few years in the future, If Jesus came today, it would be just 7 years and the world is in the 1,000 Year Perfect Age! God Bless!
---Mrs._Morgan on 11/1/06

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thanks Brother Jason, I can tell you, God has much compassion, after the way I have treated Him, I don't know why I am still here, maybe it is because I am bold and have a big mouth and don't mind using it for the Lord :)
Peace be with you
---kent on 11/1/06

Reiter - Human beings do go to hell. People who reject Christ & His sacrifice of Himself on the Cross for their sins do go to hell. "He who does not believe stands condemned already" (John 3:18). There is more to be said about hell in Scripture than there is heaven. Sin is the whole of man's problem, & a person who has not had their sins washed away by the Blood of the Lamb cannot stand in God's presence. God hates sin, but He loves the sinner that is why He sent Jesus to die on the Cross.
---Helen_5378 on 10/31/06

Mrs. Morgan, PRAISE GOD! After I read your remarks, Iwant to shout. Most Christians look no further into the future but only say "I'm going to Heaven." I must ask one thing, Do you not believe that those coming out of Great Tribulation and those born during the Millenium must be judged? The only place left for their Judgement is at the White Throne which I agree is primarily for the lost. Nevertheless it is appointed to man once to die, after this the Judgment. Your comments are welcome.
---jason on 11/1/06

Kent, I don't know that the Bible gives a truly clear doctrinal stand on this subject though I believe we can be assured of some things. #1 They presently go to be with God (II Sam) #2 They will be friends of the Bride and could not be included with the Bride. (Rev 19) #3 They will partake in some manner in the Millenium Reign (Kingdom of Heaven) (Matt.)
Beyond this might be pure innocent speculation on my part and yours. I guess we must just trust that God knows what is best. In Christ my Brother.
---jason on 11/1/06

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Mrs Morgan,
"there will be no losers in that judgment!"

Really? I would say the Christians that got left behind (according to your theology) are loosers big time! Where do they fit into your schedule of judgments?
---Bruce5656 on 10/31/06

Brother Jason, let us settle one issue before we move on to the next, where do we stand on the children.
Peace be with you
---Kent on 10/31/06

Jason , I apologize I was speaking of the judgement after the Rapture, yes there is one more before the lake of fire.
Peace be with you
---Kent on 10/31/06

(I.)Hello Jason! In regard to the Judgments, The 5 Major Judgments(in order)are: The Judgment at Calvary, The Judgment of Rewards, The Tribulation Judgment,The Judgment of the Nations(Armageddon), and the Great White Throne Judgment. The born-again will not have to stand before God because of their past sins, because Jesus took our place for that at the Judgment at Calvary(about 2,000 years ago).
---Mrs._Morgan on 10/31/06

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jason, (II.)In regard to the unrepentant sinner's, they will be judged at the Great White Throne Judgment which occurs AFTER the 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth(Revelation 20:5,13). In regard to the Judgment of Rewards(for the saints), this takes place AFTER the Rapture, "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is WITH ME, to give every man according as his work shall be"(Revelation 22:12), there will be no losers in that judgment! God Bless!
---Mrs._Morgan on 10/31/06

Kent, I agree. we need to pray for eiter that God will provide to Him the simplicity of the Word. We may debate on things that might not have a definite black and whit answer in the Bible and show no harm but there are some basics that one must accept before believeing upon the Foundation. The foundational truths are unarguable.
---jason on 10/31/06

reiter, you definately don't study the Bible or Believe in Jesus Christ then.
Praying for your salvation,
Peace be with you
---kent on 10/31/06

Kent, Thank you for your remarks. I would disagree in part with the subject of the Judgement. The church must be tried before the Millenium Reign. The lost and those born during the Reign must be judged also which only leaves the Great White Thrown. I do not believe that all flesh is judged together. Could you send scripture backing up that there is only one judgement? Also we know that The Holy City which we call Heaven doesn't even come into view until AFTER the battale of Gog and Magog. cont>>
---jason on 10/31/06

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Kent, 2 God's on His throne. His throne is not in the new city yet. Most agree that you must be saved to enter the new city, but Satan has access to the throne of God presently. (See Job) Satan cannot enter the New City. Where are the sainted dead, absent from the body, and present with the Lord. They are at his throne. We can call that Heaven, but it isn't an eternal state, they must come back with Christ, be judged, then after 1,000 years and a season, All Born Again will enter the New City. Thanks.
---jason on 10/31/06

Reiter, Do you have scripture that nobody goes to Hell? Please tell.
---jason on 10/31/06

Baptism is a symbol that shows that you are joining into the community of faith. the water itself is empty without the Spirit. infant baptism means that those parents are going to try to raise them in a christian home. Adult baptism shows that they believe in Jesus as savior. But there are chruchs that don't baptize at all, they are still churches because symbols themselves don't hold Grace only the spirit. and Every aspect of our lives should reflect our faith.
---Jared on 10/31/06

I don't believe that Human Beings go to hell at all. I get a little defensive over children, though. Even the Idea of a Little One being punished...I can't fanthom it. That's why I was surprised that there was even a debate over the redemption of a child.

---Reiter on 10/31/06

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Jason, being safe would be the same as being made righteous by God ex. Abraham. those dieing before the cross will be guest of the bride. We all pass from this flesh into Heaven, we don't hang out some where, ALL must face judgement no matter how long they have been separated from the flesh, all will be judged at the same time. but remember there is no time with God. when a childs soul faces judgement day they cannot be condemed for anything since they did not have knowledge of sin. correct? :)
---Kent on 10/30/06

Reiter, Who said God was sending children to hell? I didn't. I asked a question. Be careful how you read these blogs so you can answer appropriately.
---jason on 10/30/06

ent, So are you saying that children who die are "safe" and are reciepiants to eternal life but are not part of the Bride of Christ? The reason I ask is because we all know that to rule and reign we must suffer. I'm not sure what to do with the word "safe." I don't believe they go to hell because of the II Sam. scripture. My question is, what does "safe" give them? cont>>
---jason on 10/30/06

It sounds like "safe" might back up my thoughts about the children and the Kingdom. I'm sure you'd agree that there will be many who will join ranks with Satan at the end of the Millenium. They can't be the bride for they are already judges and sealed. It could only leave those coming out of great tribulation and those born during the millenium and possibly those who die now as children. They are given the chance to recieve Christ during the Millenium. Please give your thoughts with scripture.
---jason on 10/30/06

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Children who die before the age of accountability go to the presence of God and are considered safe in Jesus, rather than using the traditional word saved. this is based on the nature of God, who would not condemn anyone who lacked the ability to respond. do you think a child of two would understand what sin is? do you think if that child died God would send them to hell? more later
Peace be with you
---Kent on 10/30/06

Tina, children have the Most faith. It is necessary to have "Child-Like" Faith in order to SEE...

Children, also possess boundless Imaginations.

The Faith and Imagination of a Child is snuffed out during his transition to adulthood.

---Reiter on 10/30/06


It's merciless of you to believe in a G-D, who sends children to burn in hell's flames.


*We would all be more god-like, if we possessed the purity and innocence of a CHILD.
---Reiter on 10/30/06

Kent, Matthew 19:14 delas with the Kingdom of heaven, not Heaven. Is there any verse that gives these children eternal security or do they only have security of the Kingdom and while there they must make a decision to believe upon Christ? There will be many during the kingdom that will be saved or choose to enter ranks with Satan in the Battle of Gog and Magog. thank you for your replies.
---jason on 10/30/06

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Jason, Matthew 19:14 2 Sam 12:23
---Kent on 10/29/06

Tina5349, You are quoting things way far out of context... we are not going in circles at all. You are twisting things around to meet your false doctrines. You are doing exactly what Peter says in 2 Peter 3:16. You are wresting Pauls epistles and the other scriptures because you are unlearned and unstable.
---tofurabby on 10/29/06

Jason I will give that to you soon, Suffer the little children.
Peace be with you
---kent on 10/29/06

Kent, You wrote: "if a child dies before the age of accountability they are going to Heaven, because the Father says so. For some it may be six, for some it may be twelve etc. there is no set age. the age of accountability is when that child has a concept of what sin truly is."
Where is this scripture where the Father "says so?" I can't find it.
I believe Jesus when He said: "I am the way, the truth and the life; no man (mankind) cometh unto the Father but by Me."
---Jason on 10/28/06

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Tina , why do you go in circles?, if a child dies before the age of accountability they are going to Heaven, because the Father says so. For some it may be six, for some it may be twelve etc. there is no set age. the age of accountability is when that child has a concept of what sin truly is, then the Holy Spirit goes to work. when a child is christaned soon after birth, that is ceremonial also. the child is christaned into the church and the church promises in turn to help that child grow in Christ,
---Kent on 10/28/06

part two-- in know way does that constitute salvation, and if a child never gets christaned before they accept Christ they are still in God's protection. It's when they Reject Christ that God say's ok that is your choice. I have heard that a certain Religion tells there people that if a child does not get christaned immediately and they should die before they do they will not go to Heaven, that is so wrong it nearly makes me weep, what a horrible horrible thing to tell people.
---Kent on 10/28/06

part three--Mark 10 verse 15 tells us that a little childs frame of mind is innocent and humbled and they are allowed into Heaven and we should prepare ourselfs in the same manner, mostly speaking of the humbled part , for we know the mind and flesh are corrupt
Peace be with you
---Kent on 10/28/06

We're back to Augusta's very good question. It went something like this.

If faith is required for salvation, and since infants can't have faith, how are infants saved?
---Tina5349 on 10/27/06

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Tina , first of all Peter was talking about baptism in the Holy Spirit.
as for Eph.2 vrse 4-9, it plainly says, For by Grace are ye saved,THROUGH FAITH, If you don't have Faith you don't get Grace and you are not Saved, nice verse it says it all.
Peace be wtih you
---kent on 10/27/06

So tufurabby,

Was St Peter lying when he said Baptism now saves you? Or when he said repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins? Was Ananias lying when he told Paul to get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name? Was Jesus lying when He said "Let the little children come to me"? or, "whoever causes one of these little ones *who believe in Me* to stumble..." We're going in circles again and it's time for me to get off this merry-go-round.
---Tina5349 on 10/27/06

Tina, you asked, "Where does scripture teach that salvation must always precede baptism?"

The answer again is Acts 8:36-38. First you must believe Christ is the Son of God. At the point of belief you are saved, not at the time of baptism.

John 3:16; John 14:6; Acts 13:38-39; Romans 10:9-13; Ephesians 1:13-14; Ephesians 2:8-9; 1 Peter 1:8-9
---tofurabby on 10/27/06

-2- Tina, you asked, "who is arguing that faith is not required?"

You are... you are claiming baptism saves... even little children who are not mature enough to understand faith. this is wrong. There are NO scriptures to support the claim baptism saves us. The suggestion takes away Christ's sacrifice.
---tofurabby on 10/27/06

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-3- Tina, you asked, "Does that mean God always works this way?"

Let me ask you, does God turn back on his Word? He told us there is only one way to obtain salvation. (Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.) Belief that Christ is the Son of God. 1 way... that makes for a very narrow way. God will not make exceptions, if he did, he would be a liar... we know that isnt happening.
---tofurabby on 10/27/06

-4- If God made baptism an exception for salvation, overriding the sacrifice of his son, suddenly the way is not so narrow. You make God into a liar when you add baptism as a means of salvation.
---tofurabby on 10/27/06

Tina, I trusted my life to Jesus Christ, From what He has told me and done for me, I have faith that He will always be there for me. that Faith I have put in Him pleases God very much and because of that God gives me grace. I will Respond to the verse you gave later today.
Peace be with you
---kent on 10/27/06

Baptism does not produce forgiveness and cleansing from sin (1 Peter 3:20,21). The reality of forgiveness precedes the rite of baptism (verse 41). Genuine repentance brings from God the fogiveness (remission) of sins (Eph. 1:7), and because of that the new believer was to be baptized. Baptism, however was to be the ever-present act of obdedience, so that it became synonymous with salvation. If baptism saves, then all the other passages would be wrong.
---lisa on 10/27/06

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So...are you saying that you *do* have faith in your faith? What do you think of Ephesians chapter 2? Particularly verses 4-9??
---Tina5349 on 10/26/06

Lisa said "The water has no power to change anyone."

I agree that the water on it's own has no power to change anyone. Baptism however, is not plain water, but it is the water included in God's command and combined with God's word. Matt. 28:19 Without God's Word the water is plain water, but with the Word of God it is a Baptism--a life-giving water, rich in grace and a washing of the new birth in the Holy Spirit. Titus 3.
---Tina5349 on 10/26/06

Scripture nowhere teaches that baptism is the acknowledgment of our commitment. Check it out for yourself.

Scripture does teach that in our baptism...

Our sins were forgiven (Acts 2:38)
We were baptized into Christ's death (Rom 6:3-4)
We were clothed with Christ (Gal 3:27)
We were raised with Christ (Col. 2:11-12)
Our hearts were circumcised by Christ (Col 2:11-12)
---Tina5349 on 10/26/06

Tina, Tofurabby is correct. Salvation preceeds baptism. Believing or regeneration, or born again comes first and baptism is the acknowledgement of that commitment. The water has no power to change anyone. Salvation is by grace alone, through faith. Obedience is our response to our faith. No one refuses to be baptized, if they love Christ, If they refuse, they are in rebellion to one of Christ commands, with full knowledge that we are told by Christ to be baptized.
---lisa on 10/26/06

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sorry you have it backwards, you have to have Faith in order to obtain Grace
Peace be with you
---Kent on 10/26/06

If you did not have Faith in Jesus Christ, would God give you Grace? NOOOOOOO
Peace be with you
---Kent on 10/26/06

Tofurabby: You are mistaken. The context of my post was that baptism is commanded for the forgiveness of sins using Acts 2:38. I used Acts 8:36-38 in reference to the fact that baptism involves *water*. I will re-submit the post to which I believe you are referring.

What did the apostles proclaim about baptism? It was commanded for the forgiveness of sins, Acts 2:38. It was done to wash away sins, Acts 22:16. It involved *water* Acts 8: 36-38; 10:48. It was done *immediately* Acts 16:25-33.
---Tina5349 on 10/26/06

#1 tofurabby,
Where does scripture teach that salvation must always precede baptism? Again, who is arguing that faith is not required? The eunuch did have faith prior to his what? Does that mean God always works this way? Can God not work the miracle of repentance and faith even in an infant through the means of water connected with the Word all at the same time?
---Tina5349 on 10/26/06

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#2 tofurabby,
Must He wait for our say so...that it is now okay to save this person because he has met our demands of what he must say and do in order to prove that he is saved? God is not limited to our human time constraints, and he does not wait for our permission to save souls.
---Tina5349 on 10/26/06

"Faith is not the object of our faith"

Kent, Im not sure if you are objecting to this statement or agreeing with it, or if you are simply confused by it. Faith is not the object of our faith...Christ is the object of our faith. Kent, do you have faith in your faith, or faith in Christ Jesus? Jesus is the One in whom we believe, not our faith.
---Tina5349 on 10/26/06

Tina, You said baptism was commanded by the apostles for the forgiveness of sins and quoted that scripture as your reference. Which, it doesnt say that at all... it tells clearly states you must believe Christ is the Son of God before you are baptized. There are many passages that let us know that at the point we believe this, we are granted eternal life. So salvation preceeds baptism. We must be saved before baptism means anything (outward expression of our new faith), otherwise we are baptized in vain.
---tofurabby on 10/26/06

Salvation is by GRACE.Which is GODS unmerited favor given to us through FAITH ALONE IN CHRIST ALONE!JESUS is LORD!!
---JIM on 10/26/06

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Kent, the defintion that Tina gave on faith is correct. you are given grace in order to have faith in Christ. Faith in Jesus is not the reason we are given grace. Grace is given in order for us to have faith in Christ. Faith is God's gift, and so is repentance for He grants repentance to the new believer by convicting him of his sins against God's law.
---lisa on 10/26/06

Faith is not the object of our Faith?
Faith in Jesus is why you are given Grace

Peace be with you
---kent on 10/26/06

Doree, Do you believe that there is enough truth in the Book of John to lead someone to the Lord without using any other book of the Bible?
---jason on 10/25/06

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