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Mormons And Joseph Smith

Why do so many Mormons believe things about Smith's tablets, etc. for which there are NO facts, and so many people refuse to believe the Bible for which there are many facts?

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The lds church doesn't talk about other churches and that there believes are wrong so y do all u ppl do that?
---dakota on 6/2/09


True Robert there are many people establishing their own Churches. The LDS split early into two groups.

All the LDS groups claim to also follow Joseph Smith.

The main split offs also follow Smiths having multiple wives often underage children. This is based on actual teachings and practices by Smith. So the evil fruit he taught is still being spread.

Why the LDS church has stopped this evil practice. They have not repudiated the man who started them.

So I choose to look to JESUS and the Bible as the final authority. I also believe that Ellen G. White was inspired of GOD to correct the church of many wrongs. Not start new unbiblical doctrines not found in the Bible.
---Samuel on 2/3/09


Regardless of how many "splits" have emerged in the LDS Church, there are many thousand more divisions in the Protestant group of Churches. Every divinty and divinity graduate runs out to the world with his/her own version of what the truth should be. The Lord laid down a plan, whereby the world would be led by prophets, who would calls priests. He personally called apostles and when one died, he was replaced, until the non believers made it impossible for them to be replaced. Just in the class of 2008 there were tens of thousands of new churches added to Protestantism.

And it shall come to pass, saith the LORD, that the mountain of the Lord's house, shall be established in the tops of the mountains.
---Robert on 2/2/09


The answer is simple. LDS's believe in the power of prayer. We also believe in the power of the Holy Ghost to confirm truths of our Heavenly Father to our souls, so we know Jesus is the Christ, the bible is true, and the heavens aren't closed.ashley

SDA also teach this. We also teach to follow all of the Ten Commandments.

There will be many things coming forth to strengthen our faith in Jesus Christ to battle evil and the anti christ. Jesus said, Many look for signs, or tangible things, but Jesus said cursed are they that seek signs to promote faith.
ashley

JESUS also warned of false prophets who would lead away from his Truth. So which do you trust more the Bible or your Prophets?
---Samuel on 2/2/09


It may be of some historical interest to you that there have been about 200 sectarian splits within the Latter Day Saint movement since the Book of Mormon was first published in 1830. At least 12 of those splits happened before Joseph Smith was murdered in 1844. Today there are six or seven groups with over 1000 members, and 2-3 dozen smaller ones.
---JohnnyB on 2/1/09




Ashley,

Ezekiel is proclaiming, in chapters 36 and 37, God's pledge to restore the nation of Israel to life. The two sticks are an illustration of God's intention to unite Israel and Judah into one kingdom. If you recall, the kingdom of Judah consisted of two tribes, Judah and Benjamin, and was referred to simply as Judah. The kingdom of Israel consisted of the other ten tribes, and was referred to as Israel, or Ephraim (one of Joseph's sons).

The sticks have nothing to do with Mormons.

When we say there's no evidence to support the BOM, that doesn't mean we're looking for a sign, we're merely pointing out a fact, just as it's a fact that there is a lot of evidence to support the Bible.
---Laurie on 1/30/09


The answer is simple. LDS's believe in the power of prayer. We also believe in the power of the Holy Ghost to confirm truths of our Heavenly Father to our souls, so we know Jesus is the Christ, the bible is true, and the heavens aren't closed. There will be many things coming forth to strengthen our faith in Jesus Christ to battle evil and the anti christ. Jesus said, "In the mouth of two or more witnesses shall all his words be fulfilled." Ezekiel 37:15-17 - Two sticks will be as one, the stick of Judah or the bible, and the stick of Joseph. LDS's have both sticks and why is it no one can tell me where or what that is. Many look for signs, or tangible things, but Jesus said cursed are they that seek signs to promote faith.
---ashley on 1/30/09


Some Mormon teachings are difficult to accept. Others should be impossible for anyone to accept. For example:

God did not create the physical Earth Himself. Actually, all of us helped out. Under the direction of Jesus and Adam, we created the Earth. Some of us created trees, others created rocks and still others created animals, based on God's blueprints. See Abraham 3:22-24, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1, pages 74-75.
---David on 1/28/09


For the same reason that gullible people believe lies, rather than the evident truth.
---Eloy on 1/28/09


Chris,

You're right, some seem to be willing and able to put their faith in something with little to no physical evidence. The fact that there is so much physical evidence to substantiate the historical aspects of the Bible, though, is a bonus and a blessing, and one of the reasons we can point to it as being far superior to any other holy book or religion.

God has given us physical proof in the form of miracles of which the Bible testifies, and fulfilled prophecy. There is a wealth of archaeological, geographical and documentary evidence that supports the validity of the Bible, which no other holy book or religion can claim.
---Laurie on 1/26/09




I respectfully disagree. There are something like 60 items mentioned in the Book of Mormon that seem odd to many - cement, steel swords, barley, etc. In 1842 only 8 of those 60 were able to be confirmed as having existed. As of 2005, 45 of those 60 items have been "confirmed" as having existed in the New World. HappyLDS

I have heard this statment before. Could you give me the list or place to find the list and the proof you say exists. May I remind you Indians operated in a latter stone age culture.

Most LDS believe in spite of the evidence against them. A number of former LDS biologists have quit after seeing the truth.
---Samuel on 1/26/09


Why do so many people believe in Hinduism, Buddahism, Catholism, Judaism, etc. They believe because it resonates with something in them. It may resonate with the familiar things they were brought up with. It may resonate with certain basic beliefs that have individual meaning in their life. Most belief systems are not believed because of the physical truths, but because of the emotional, spiritual and philosophical type truths that they teach or because of the church organization and how it makes the person feel like it is the right place for them (which it may be). There are some things in every religion's "historical facts" that seems doubtful, but like I say it is not these things that matter most to these believers.
---chris on 1/26/09


Happy LDS,

While Mormons do offer the items you referred to as archaeological evidence, the problem is that few, if any, professional archaeologists, except those who are practicing Mormons themselves, view the BOM as a document with any archaeological value. It has been said that the authors of the books written on this subject are making cases out of too little evidence and do not adequately address the problems that archaeology and the BOM present.

Even F.A.R.M.S. (Foundation for Ancient Resource and Mormon Studies) has admitted that proof of the BOM remains in the spiritual domain.
---Laurie on 1/26/09


For an example for Mormons believe "The Book of Mormon is a sacred record of peoples in ancient America" yet there has been no archaeological proof ever offered.
mima

I respectfully disagree. There are something like 60 items mentioned in the Book of Mormon that seem odd to many - cement, steel swords, barley, etc. In 1842 only 8 of those 60 were able to be confirmed as having existed. As of 2005, 45 of those 60 items have been "confirmed" as having existed in the New World. My point is that technology is advancing everyday and I have no doubt that eventually the lost civilizations will be found as well. The question is will that be enough "proof" - my guess is probably not.

cont.
---HappyLDS on 1/18/09


You are right, we do not believe our place in eternity is by faith alone. James tells us many times that "Faith without works is dead." We are told in Revelation that we will be judged according to our works. We do not believe that we can work our way into heaven but we do believe that there are works which we must do. Those works included faith, repentance, baptism, obeying the commandments, obeying the Laws of God, etc. We do these things as a result of our faith. I understand that many have a different view but again, I believe our doctrine is consistent with the Bible - we do not take upon ourselves to change those things the Bible teaches.
---HappyLDS on 1/18/09


Mormonism teaches that some of the more faithful and devout of their faith can also be exalted and become gods themselves and be given a world of their own to rule.
---mima on 1/18/09

I understand that this doctrine seems out there to those outside of our faith and it's too lengthy to put in less that 125 words. We believe that we have always existed as spirits - that we were there, with God prior to our earthly existence. We believe that we were there when the plan of salvation was put into place, that we sanctioned Jesus Christ as our Savior - that we KNEW that we would have trials but chose to take this path anyway because we knew that what our "rewards" could be.
cont.
---HappyLDS on 1/18/09


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cont.

We believe that our Heavenly Father wants us to achieve what He has just as we as parents want for our children. He will always be our God, our Father - we will never be equal to or above Him.

I feel like I have taken up too much room with my posts so I will stop for now. I do have some questions in regard to the various doctrines of other faiths and how this isn't considered "perversion" of the Gospel but will wait until later.
---HappyLDS on 1/18/09


First, thank you mima for presenting your statements without a contentious spirit! I will reply in the same manner!

In regard to our belief that God has a body of flesh and bones. We believe that God has a GLORIFIED body - one that we can't imagine. In John 4:24 we are told that God is a Spirit and that we must worship Him in spirit and in truth. I agree. I John 4:8 we are told that God is Love. Again, I agree. I John 1:5 we are told that God is light. I agree that God is ALL of these things in relationship to us.

cont.
---HappyLDS on 1/18/09


---HappyLDS when speaking of "another gospel" I'm referring to any perversion of the true Gospel that in the main teaches that "FAITH" is NOT SUFFICIENT for Salvation,(for example combining the book of Mormon with the Bible(faith cometh hearing and hearing by the Word of God not the were the word of Joseph Smith) nor able to keep and perfect, and so emphasizes "GOOD WORKS." Col. 2:18-20, Heb. 6:1, Heb. 9:14. The Apostle Paul pronounces a fearful "Anathema" upon its preachers and teachers. Gal. 1:8-9.
---mima on 1/18/09


For an example for Mormons believe "The Book of Mormon is a sacred record of peoples in ancient America" yet there has been no archaeological proof ever offered.

Much archaeological proof for the truthfulness of the Bible.

The book of Mormon contains no prophecy.

The proof that the Bible is the inspired Word of God is proven over and over again by fulfilled prophecy.
---mima on 1/18/09


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---HappyLDS
Now according to the teachings of the LDS church, their god is a material being of flesh and bone and is not a spirit. He has a physical body just like all humans. But the Bible plainly states that God is a Spirit. Mormons believe the god of earth was once a mortal man, who through a process the Mormons call "eternal progression," was exalted from being a mortal man to become a god in a place called the Celestial Heaven. Being mortal means being subject to death and therefore the Mormon god was once a man like all men on earth. Mormonism teaches that some of the more faithful and devout of their faith can also be exalted and become gods themselves and be given a world of their own to rule.
---mima on 1/18/09


---HappyLDS you bring up an interesting point about the book of Mormon COMBINING with the Bible to make up the everlasting gospel according to the beliefs of LDS. Would you say that that is ADDING to the Word of God.
---mima on 1/18/09


You realize of course that the Mormons are following a different gospel than the one the apostles preached. Mima 1-17-09

Could you please explain this statement to me because I fail to see the reasoning behind it. It's true that we do not follow the Nicene Creed, or the Apostle's Creed or any creed. I certainly don't deny that. You are aware that these creeds were founded through thoughts of men, right? It's true that we believe God the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Ghost are three separate personages but there are others that believe that as well and they aren't counted out as Christians.
cont.
---HappyLDS on 1/17/09


cont.

Do we believe that because of Jesus' death all of us (good and evil) have been saved from the bonds of death? Yes, we do - the Bible tells us so. Do we believe that we will be judged according to our works? Yes, we do - the Bible tells us that as well. This does NOT mean that we believe we can "work" our way into heaven - that's a myth perpetuated by people who are either ignorant or maliciously undermining the truth.

So please Mima - tell me the "different" gospel we follow. Don't offer me quotes from our leaders as they are usually out of context and meaningless. I know this sounds sarcastic, I don't mean it to be - I just want to know what people are thinking when they make comments such as yours.
---HappyLDS on 1/17/09


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Mima,
Yes, the Book of Mormon was delivered into the hands of Joseph Smith by the Angel Moroni. Angels are used as messengers throughout the Bible are they not? Mormons believe that the angel spoken of in Revelation 14:6,7 is the angel Moroni and that the Book of Mormon COMBINED with the Bible is the "everlasting gospel." I'm always intrigued by those who attempt to disqualify the our church by that verse in Galatians. Paul is instructing the people that what he teaches is of God and not of man - he is telling them he received the gospel through revelation from God...the same claim that Joseph Smith made.
---HappyLDS on 1/17/09


Dan,

I believe that Jesus is the Only Begotten Son in the flesh. I believe he is the only man born into this world that is both mortal and immortal. He is mortal through his mother, Mary. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Ghost and is immortal through his Father, our God. He had to be both because he had to be able to die (being mortal) and to take his life back (being immortal). He is our example as to how to live our lives, He is our Savior and suffered and died for our sins as we will fall short.
---HappyLDS on 1/17/09


happy, I don't know how anyone could call you an idiot from so far away. do you believe Jesus was a created angel?
---Dan on 1/17/09


To---HappyLDS I believe you would agree that Joseph Smith got his information(which many would call "another gospel") from the angel Moroni.

However Galatians 1:8 says this,"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."

You realize of course that the Mormons are following a different gospel than the one the apostles preached.

Are you an idiot? Absolutely not!!! But you are woefully misguided.
---mima on 1/17/09


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David,

I probably over-reacted, at times defending my beliefs can get overwhelming. Most on these blogs have an agenda and that agenda is to "prove" Mormons are misguided idiots. I'm 49 years old and I'm not an idiot! I love my church. There are many on these blogs that literally attack our beliefs with no clue as to what they are talking about. We love the Bible, we study the Bible. We are fortunate to have the Book of Mormon as well. It is another testimony of Jesus Christ. It does not contradict the Bible and most of the time we use both in our classes. Your questions usually seem honest and I should have let your comment slide. (This is a very long winded thank you)
---HappyLDS on 1/16/09


You ignored my point that the man who became god according to your teaching lived on a planet that JESUS according to the Bible had to create. So from the bible your man lived on a planet that did not exist.
---Samuel on 1/16/09

This is one of those fallacies I spoke of to David. Samuel, I know exactly what you are referring to and you have it wrong. Please go and read the scriptures your source has distorted. The Pearl of Great Price, Book of Abraham...this is insignificant stuff and it's repeatedly used as an expose' into what Mormons believe. Enough.
---HappyLDS on 1/16/09


Samuel,
I worship the same God that you do. I believe that Jesus Christ was with God the Father during the creation - thus the reason words like "us" and "our" are used. I have an understanding about where I came from, who I am, where I'm going and what the purpose of life is. I have that understanding as a result of the scriptures, of modern revelation and I live it. I love my church and I believe it's doctrine is sound. I don't attempt to belittle your beliefs, I feel certain that most of what is said about SDA is about as true as what is said of Mormons. I think that if you are happy with your beliefs and you live a good life - great. I don't mind answering honest questions but please stop telling me what I believe.
---HappyLDS on 1/16/09


"You ignored my point that the man who became god according to your teaching lived on a planet that JESUS according to the Bible had to create" by Samuel

Samuel - could you please tell me where in our doctrine it says our God lives on a planet? I know exactly where this is coming from (and it's wrong) - just want to know if you know.

Also, apparently I am not making myself clear. While we ACKNOWLEDGE the existence of other gods, we worship only one - the Eternal Father. We believe that Jesus was there with God during the creation (note the use of the words "us" and "our".
---HappyLDS on 1/16/09


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The Bible speaks of other gods - I Cor 8:5,6 You skipped verse 4
1Cr 8:4 none other God but one.

Exodus 15:11, The other gods cannot do wonders or miracles.

Deut 10:17, The other gods are false.

Joshua 22:22,2 Chron 2:5, Psalm over all other gods.

Psalms 82:1, Judgeth other gods

How can the god you worship be these things since he came after the other gods you teach about. This could only be true when comparing the One True GOD with all the false ones people create to worship.
---Samuel on 1/16/09


I have never said that we will be above or even beside God - He is our God and there is none other but Him. This does not contradict the scriptures. HappyLDS

Since you teach that there were other higher gods before ours it does. For the Bible teaches there were no gods before ours and that JESUS created all worlds so your god had no place to live on. So the Bible does contradict your teachings.

Isa 43:10 Ye [are] my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I [am] he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
---Samuel on 1/16/09


Dear Happy LDS

We take Bibles to church and we take our Sabbath lesson booklets and Bible to Sabbath school. I teach an adult class. Now we are studying prophets including our Prophetess but we never bring her books to church since the truth must be taught from the Bible alone. Isiah 28:9,10

The original languages of all the Bible is the same. While translations can vary in type and kind. Comparing translations helps us to understand meaning and get more from our bible study.

You ignored my point that the man who became god according to your teaching lived on a planet that JESUS according to the Bible had to create. So from the bible your man lived on a planet that did not exist.
---Samuel on 1/16/09


HappyLDS

You say "It is a fact that the Bible has been translated hundreds of times by different men" and you therefore find it faulty.

Then yoiu say "The BOM was translated by one man and we believe that one man did so by the Power of God." and therefore "That is why we believe that the BOM is more "correct" than the Bible"

There is a fault in your reasoning ... the original Hebrew & other texts for the bible translations were seen by many people, and are in existence and checkable.

There is no record of anyone but the alleged translator who has seen the originals of the BOM.

I know which I would trust more
---alan8566_of_UK on 1/16/09


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Happy LDS. I certainly have given the wrong impression. I am not offering feigned respect. I have the greatest respect for you as a person. I respect the fact that you are willing to stand up for what you believe. My question was sincere. As I review what I posted I can see how it might sound disdainful. I apologize. It is just that if I were to accept the Book of Mormon as scripture I wouldnt be able to accept many of the things stated in the Bible and would probably not spend much time with it. I will try to review my posts more carefully before exposing them to the net.
---David on 1/15/09


I Cor 8:5 says "whether in HEAVEN or in earth" - do you suppose there is a lot of idol worship in heaven? In verses 4 and 7 idols are referred to as idols, not gods. I don't know if anything can be taken of that, it's just interesting.
---HappyLDS on 1/15/09


With all due respect I wonder why your carry the Bible to your meetings as it opposes all of the above?
---David on 1/15/09

I suppose we carry it so that we can read along with the speakers when they reference the scriptures. Or maybe so that we can follow our lessons like the one I'll be teaching about the Parables in Matthew 13 this Sunday. It is apparent by the tone of your writing that you take issues with our beliefs and that is perfectly okay - but please don't offer feigned respect when it's obvious that there isn't any.
---HappyLDS on 1/15/09


Happy: Of course there are a multitude of times that the expression other gods is used throughout the bible. You certainly read the verse on each side of 1 Cor. 8:5.
How can you conceivable not realize these verses refer to other countries idols.

1 Cor 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. Verse 6: But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him, and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

The same applies to the other quotations.
---David on 1/15/09


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David - First, I do not teach a Sunday school class, I teach another group within the church once a month. As for your questions:

The Bible speaks of other gods - I Cor 8:5,6 , Exodus 15:11, Deut 10:17, Joshua 22:22, 2 Chron 2:5, Psalms 82:1, 95.3 to offer a few.

The existence of a Heavenly Mother is speculation - I don't know that it's official doctrine but I could be wrong. I personally believe in Her existence, but that is my personal belief. It isn't taught in any class I've attended and isn't spoken of much.

cont.
---HappyLDS on 1/15/09


It is a fact that the Bible has been translated hundreds of times by different men. Through those translations and varied interpretations we believe that many things were lost and many scriptures were either misinterpreted or transcribed incorrectly. It stands to reason - especially when you consider what happens right here on these blogs...people have different interpretations of the same scriptures. The BOM was translated by one man and we believe that one man did so by the Power of God. That is why we believe that the BOM is more "correct" than the Bible. This does not mean that we don't believe the Bible because we most certainly do. We believe that both books contain those things we need to learn about the Kingdom of God.
---HappyLDS on 1/15/09


Happy LDS :I think I posted this item on the wrong blog earlier. So here it is again.
Do you teach your Sunday school class:
There are many gods? (Abraham 4:3)

There is a mother god? (Articles of Faith - James Talmage Pg.443).

The book of Mormon is more correct that the Bible? (History of the church 4:461)
Christs conception resulted from a sexual experience between god in a human body and Mary? (J of D vol. 8 pg 115 - - Mormon Doctrine by Bruce McConkie Pg. 547 - - Doctrine of Salvation by J.S. Smith 1954 1:18)

With all due respect I wonder why your carry the Bible to your meetings as it opposes all of the above?
---David on 1/15/09


We take our scriptures - The Bible, BOM, D & C with us to church on Sundays. They are used in our sacrament meetings for reference. In Sunday school, we study and discuss the scriptures - we are able to offer our opinions and discuss the doctrine openly and without fear of reprimand. If there are questions, they are asked and answered. You forget we have no paid clergy - we are self taught. I teach a class and obviously I am not well schooled in all doctrine! I do a lot of research to prepare my lessons. The church does not give me anything specific to say, just a subject. My class is mostly about participation and discussion. If you want to call scripture study indoctrination, it is your right.
---HappyLDS on 1/15/09


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Samuel - I don't intentionally skip you I just find it difficult to understand what it is you want from me. I have never said that we will be above or even beside God - He is our God and there is none other but Him. This does not contradict the scriptures. We do not believe we will ever be independent of God and I don't know any other way to put it. Becoming as God means overcoming the world through the atonement of Jesus Christ. The are scriptures that teach that we shall be joint heirs with Christ and will inherit all things. Romans 8:17, Gal 4:7, I Cor 3:21-23, Rev 21:7
There are also scriptures that indicate we will be one with Christ and the Father - I Cor 15:49, 2 Cor 3:18, John 17:21-23, Phillipians 3:21
---HappyLDS on 1/15/09


The one that I feel impressed to mention is from Isaiah 28:9,10. I believe that God reveals what we are ready to receive and that we will continue to receive revelation regarding the Gospel at the time God determines we are ready to understand it. HappyLDS

You skipped me. To follow Isaiah 28:9,10 is in the will of GOD. But you have not followed the truth that GOD does not contridict himself. Your teaching is contrary to scripture. Check out Deut 6,4 Isa 6:3 44:6-8

Isa 43:10 Ye [are] my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I [am] he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
---Samuel on 1/15/09


I think this statement to be correct.

"I also find it interesting that both Ashley and HappyLDS say almost exactly the same thing. Indoctrination is a wonderful thing, don't you think?
---NurseRobert on 1/11/09"

The word indoctrination perfectly described what takes place in the Mormon Church.
---mima on 1/15/09


David and Bobby -
I understand your questions in regard to this doctrine and I understand that you find this belief strange and misguided. There is no specific scripture in the Bible that I know of that supports this doctrine. The one that I feel impressed to mention is from Isaiah 28:9,10. I believe this is how we are taught - precept on precept, line upon line. I believe that God reveals what we are ready to receive and that we will continue to receive revelation regarding the Gospel at the time God determines we are ready to understand it.
cont.
---HappyLDS on 1/14/09


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So god was first a man? He served under a previous god until he received his advancement to this godly state? OK if I buy that I must believe that each previous god served a god before him - right? I have to ask: At the very beginning which came first the god or the man? Can I get a one word response?

I take no pleasure in belittling Mormon beliefs. I just hope Mormons will think about it! This question has been asked many times in the past by many people. I have yet to see a direct answer. Lots of words but never a direct answer.

Something like asking the evolutionist, which came first the hen or the egg.
---David on 1/13/09


"as man is, God once was, as God is man may become..."

I've always been confused by this saying that alludes to a certain aspect of Mormon doctrine. In what sense was God once like man? Was God Himself a man who became God somehow? Or does this speak of the Incarnation of God the Son? Also, in what sense can man become like God? Surely, it can't mean a man is able to actually become a god somehow, can it? HappyLDS, if you could explain this to me, I'd appreciate it greatly. I've heard many things about this doctrine that are not exactly flattering to Mormonism and would like to hear it from an LDS.
---Bobby3 on 1/13/09


I was speaking of the timing of the civil rights movement verses the revelation given to Spencer W. Kimball. 1963 vs. 1978.
---HappyLDS on 1/12/09


Why wouldn't we say the same thing if we believe the same thing? It's also a historical fact.
---HappyLDS on 1/12/09


Who's history?? The history of a church that changes its stance when it suits them?
---NurseRobert on 1/12/09


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I'm not sure I understand what your point is here. I've never attempted to say that we don't believe that "as man is, God once was, as God is man may become." I completely believe it to be true. I never said that Jesus didn't create the Heavens and the earth - I believe he did, under direction of God the Father. I believe that the three - God the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Ghost are three separate personages and I always have - even before I became LDS....ONE IN PURPOSE.
---HappyLDS

Explain to me how JESUS could create everything that exist in the universe when his father who had not yet become a god and had JESUS as a son.

In other words this future god had to live on a planet that had yet to be created?
---Samuel on 1/12/09


Many people feel threatened by that because they live in wickedness each day and destroy lives and families through drug use, alcohol, adultery, fornication, abortion, alternate lifestyles, etc. For anyone that has read the bible, those are all worthy of satan's domain, not the kingdom of God. Jesus said: except ye repent, ye shall not enter his kingdom. Jesus will forgive our mistakes that we ourselves repent of. Ashley

Good point. I do not do any of these things and I have repented of all my sins and walk with GOD daily. I am a member of the Seventh day Adventist church a Child of the King by being Born again through the power of the HOLY SPIRIT. The LDs do not follow all of the Ten Commandments.
---Samuel on 1/12/09


I also find it interesting that both Ashley and HappyLDS say almost exactly the same thing. Indoctrination is a wonderful thing, don't you think?
---NurseRobert on 1/11/09

Why wouldn't we say the same thing if we believe the same thing? It's also a historical fact. This statement is a little bit silly isn't it?
---HappyLDS on 1/12/09


Ashley your quote of Revelation 2:17 makes no reference to Urim or Thummin. It is talking about a stone upon which a name shall be placed. How the stone will be used in not stated. In all your other quotations the Urim and Thummin are not described in any manner whatsoever. Nice try.
---David on 1/11/09


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3- the Gold plates aren't available for the world to see or touch. Only one third was translated, two thirds are still sealed to come forth in the future. If they weren't in God's hands, evil men would try to open the sealed parts for their own advantage. The Urim and Thummin was used to translate the plates, it's the same device old testament prophets used. It's a breastplate with a white stone that God gave his prophets for learning. As stated in Exodus 28:30, Num 27:21, Deut 33:8, 1 Sam 28:6, Ezra 2:63, Rev. 2:17. Many christian churches are traced back to the reformation and were born through beliefs of man. That creates contradiction and is how Satan operates. Truth is then ignored for teachings of man.
---Ashley on 1/11/09


Joseph F. Smith believed that we were not born with original sin, however some are "born into this world with other sins they committed in the pre-existence. These born-sinners get black skin and are born as the decendants of Cain.
Spirits who have received the privilege of coming to this earth had their agency in that spirit world. Some of them failed because of rebellion and were cast out with Lucifer. Others were not valiant and therefore came into this world under some restriction, and the Lord deals with them according to their works." -- Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, Volume 2, Page 178.
---NurseRobert on 1/11/09


Mike Wallace: Church policy had it that blacks had the mark of Cain. Brigham Young said, "Cain slew his brother, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin."
Gordon B. Hinckley: It's behind us. Look, that's behind us. Don't worry about those little flecks [uncertain of that word, can anybody else hear it clearly?] of history.
Mike Wallace: Skeptics will suggest, "Well, look, if we're going to expand, we can't keep the blacks out."
Gordon B. Hinckley: Pure speculation. [Laughs.]


A little fleck of history???? Since God is the same yesterday, today and forever, how is it that the Mormon church had a "flash" of revelation and decided that they were wrong?
---NurseRobert on 1/11/09


I also find it interesting that both Ashley and HappyLDS say almost exactly the same thing. Indoctrination is a wonderful thing, don't you think?
---NurseRobert on 1/11/09


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The revelation was received in June, 1978 by Pres. Kimball. Until that time, the descendants of Cain were denied certain privileges and blessings dating back to the time Cain slew Abel. The civil rights movement began in Alabama in 1963, when pastors of black congregations rose up in rebellion and it was capped in 1968 through the assassination of Martin Luther King Jr. Many laws were changed to benefit everyone and they are still being changed even today by the federal government to give equality to all. We are in the last days and the time arrived to bestow all the blessings of God on everyone in 78, ten years after the civil rights movement had reached its peak.
---ashley on 1/11/09


2- it is interesting that people often condemn or criticize the church as following false Gods, living lives by example, being a light in righteousness so others benefit. Many people feel threatened by that because they live in wickedness each day and destroy lives and families through drug use, alcohol, adultery, fornication, abortion, alternate lifestyles, etc. For anyone that has read the bible, those are all worthy of satan's domain, not the kingdom of God. Jesus said: except ye repent, ye shall not enter his kingdom. Jesus will forgive our mistakes that we ourselves repent of. Nothing is a free ride. If that is the case, satan wouldn't be cast out, he would return to God's kingdom too with everyone else that openly rebels against God.
---Ashley on 1/11/09


The revelation received by Spencer W. Kimball in regard to blacks and the Priesthood was received after President Kimball was disturbed (for lack of a better word) by the fact that blacks were being baptized and unable to enjoy Priesthood Blessings. That answer was received in 1978. The civil rights movement was in full swing in the 60's and the pressure on the church was much greater (people marched on church headquarters - things like that) than it was in the late 70's. Look it up. While you can be as cynical as you would like - facts are facts and the civil rights movement took place more than a decade before the revelation was received. In order for Utah to become a state, polygamy had to be abandoned - I think that God understood that.
---HappyLDS on 1/10/09


I doubt it was as convenient as you would like to portray.
---HappyLDS on 1/9/09


I don't doubt it a bit. How convenient was it that it was just recently the Mormon church recognized black people as Priests. Could it be that racial equality was finally catching up to the church?
---NurseRobert on 1/10/09


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Thank you as well David, I appreciate the civility with which you presented your questions. I am very happy with my choice to be a LDS, I believe that my membership has given me much insight as to what life is truly about. I know that I am a daughter of the Eternal God and that I made the choice to follow Jesus Christ, to accept his example and his atonement that will enable me to return home one day.That knowledge keeps me grounded and keeps me optimistic about the challenges that all of us will have to endure. I hope that you will search out the other side of the coin when you read the distortions made about our beliefs - they are distortions and there is another side. Take care.
---HappyLDS on 1/10/09


Friend Happy. If you are satisfied worshipping a short time God who only rules this speck of dust called Earth: In following prophets that cant determine whether they are prophesying or just talking and have to be judged by later prophets who also will be only partially right: In following the book of Mormon dictated by a guy looking at sorcery stones in his hat: that is your privilege.

I prefer worshiping an eternal God of the entire universe: A God providing unwarranted mercy, and scriptures providing salvation through faith in Christ and not my ability to always be good. Thank you for participating in this discussion. I think it is time for me to move on.
---David on 1/10/09


I'm sorry David, I forget that we have some differences in interpretation and in the existence of modern revelation. First, this verse offers the answer to who we believe that Adam is (not God the Father). In this instance, "Ancient of Days" refers to Adam as being the oldest, the first to be born of flesh. It's important to remember that we believe we all existed prior to coming to earth. Some spirits are more noble than others but all made the decision to come to earth. We believe Michael, the archangel who fought against and expelled Satan from heaven was second in nobility only to Jesus Christ. We believe that he was rewarded by becoming our mortal father, Adam.
---HappyLDS on 1/10/09


The fact that you say the LDS currently only worship one GOD does not negate the fact that Joseph Smith Jr not the founder taught that GOD was once a man who served others and older gods. That JESUS did not create the universe. post by Samuel

I'm not sure I understand what your point is here. I've never attempted to say that we don't believe that "as man is, God once was, as God is man may become." I completely believe it to be true. I never said that Jesus didn't create the Heavens and the earth - I believe he did, under direction of God the Father. I believe that the three - God the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Ghost are three separate personages and I always have - even before I became LDS....ONE IN PURPOSE.
---HappyLDS on 1/9/09


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David,
While I could see it as plausible that some leaders might discourage visiting blogs such as this (unless one is willing to actually look up these things said - they might believe the stuff written), I assure you that it is not "forbidden" as many would have you believe. We are not encouraged to blindly follow our leaders - we are told to study, pray and know for ourselves whether the things we are taught are of God. My Bishop knows that I visit these blogs and he hasn't discouraged it at all. Truthfully, blogs like this one helped me to return to the church after a very long absence.
---HappyLDS on 1/9/09


David,
I apologize if I've already written in regard to the apron question - my 3 year old grandson came over (I'm old too!)and interuppted me for a while!

The aprons are put on to represent those made of fig leaves worn by Adam and Eve. (Gen 3:7) Lucifer is portrayed in the reenactment scenes and is rebuked and expelled both times. As far as the size of the apron, I'm certain it has nothing to do with any wicca organization.

It's interesting that this is portrayed as of Satan since the LDS are always encouraged to live a life of high moral value - something Satan is very much against! Again, there are answers to these accusations on the web if you wish to research it further.
---HappyLDS on 1/9/09


....or Adam the father of all, the prince of all, the ancient of days.

Friend Happy, you,as a LDS, know perfectly well who is being referred to when the expression Ancient of days is used. Brigham young just picked up that ball and ran with it: possibly toward the wrong goal?
---David on 1/9/09


NurseRobert -
My statement was made in response to the post by mic on 1-8-09. I don't deny that the church once practiced polygamy - I only said that we no longer practice it! By the way, it was practiced in the Old Testament times as well and it was not rebuked by God at that time. As far as the number of wives had by Joseph Smith -that number varies depending on who you wish to believe, as much of the information provided here is. As for the revelation given to President Woodruff, I'm certain it was in response to a prayer for guidance. Since Mormons are law abiding people, if the territory of Utah were to become a state - they would have to abide by the law. I doubt it was as convenient as you would like to portray.
---HappyLDS on 1/9/09


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David, the scripture you mention in regard to what was taught by Joseph Smith in D & C 27:11 reads, "And also with Michael, or Adam, the father of all, the prince of all, the ancient of days," In the previous verse Jacob, Isaac and Abraham are described as "your fathers"...the entire chapter is about the sacrament, the Priesthood. The Adam-God theory is not even closely identifible in it. There are many theories as to what Brigham Young meant - no one really know except for Brigham Young himself. Again, he was a man with the weaknesses of men. Still, I do believe that he was given divine guidance from God. I hope to further research him because he is probably the most interesting to me (of the Presidents of the church)
---HappyLDS on 1/9/09


Happy LDS, OK you caught me. Old guys like me should always double check what they write. It was NOT Joseph F. that taught Adam was the Ancient of Days: It was the real genuine Joseph Smith. Sorry about that. At least I did get my cites correct and you can find the statement in the spot cited. I have no record of what Joseph F. taught.
---David on 1/9/09


Dear Happy LDS

Many here have quoted LDS scripture and not the Critics. So you need to answer them.

The fact that you say the LDS currently only worship one GOD does not negate the fact that Joseph Smith Jr not the founder taught that GOD was once a man who served others and older gods. That JESUS did not create the universe.

Where as the Bible teaches JESUS created all things everywhere to the Glory of HIS FATHER. That there is only one true GOD and that all others so called gods are false.

Mar 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God, and there is none other but he: 1Cr 8:6 Eph 4:6 1Ti 2:5 Jam 2:19
---Samuel on 1/9/09


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