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Should We Have Communion

Is communion ordained by Paul or Jesus?

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 ---Deva on 3/20/06
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Jesus commanded us to "Do this in memory of Me."....Paul just confirmed the commandment.
---BryanG on 2/8/09


communion is the partaking of and ratifying of a covenant. it is the table of the Lord.

its first by Jesus, based on such scriptures as Ps.23.
and.. the first passover Lamb in Egypt, the manna in the wilderness, receive daily bread (the Lord's prayer), healing is the children's bread, the crumbs that fall from the master's table that delivered the syro-phenician daughter who was demon possessed.

and also required by Paul to be taken in a worthy manner, properly discerning the bread and wine.
---opalgal on 11/15/08


PART ONE:
Paul records JESUS's words, 1 Corinthians 11:24-25, "And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: THIS DO YE, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me."
---Bruce5656 on 11/15/08


PART TWO:
Luke records JESUS's words: Luke 22:19, "And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: THIS DO in remembrance of me."
---Bruce5656 on 9/13/07


Cliff:
Textural transmission is a big topic to study.
Briefly, we have highly accurate copies of copies of the OT due to the nature and practice of the scribes. There were many tests done on each leaf to prove accuracy.

The NT is different in that it has been copied into codexes, and originally placed in places like Alexandria, Sinai etc. These were copied differently, and have variations in the "families" of texts.

None of these variations constitute errors.
---John_T on 3/31/06




cliff, the 12 apostles didn't have to mention keeping communion, for it was already an annual Jewish celebration in practice since the time of Moses. Communion represents the Lord's Last Passover Supper on the night of Thursday April 14, 28 A.D. at 6:00. Passover is an annual celebration between Nisan (Abib, that is April) the 14th - 21st. It is also called the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which is the bread of haste and the bread without yeast, instituted in the time of Moses in 1525 B.C. Leviticus 23:4-8.
---Eloy on 3/27/06


Moderator; If the bible was put together by the Holy Spirit ,as you're suggesting,then there would be no errors. Which "text" would that be? since it was not 1st constructed in English!

Moderator - As you should know, the Bible wasn't written in English. It was written in Hebrew, Greek and Arabic.
---1st_cliff on 3/27/06


Mod; I'm well aware,as i'm sure you are of how the canon of the NT part of the bible was arrive at. By consensus over many generations.The Syrian Orthodox church still does not recognize 2nd Peter,2nd 3rd John or revelation.The Synod of Hippo(393CE)and Synod of Carthage (397CE)agreed on the 27 books of the NT, aknowledging that Jerome and Augustine were most influential in it's conclusion! H.S led? It's what Catholics call "an article of faith".

Moderator - If you believe the Catholics put the Bible together, then you don't understand how the Bible was put together.
---1st_cliff on 3/27/06


Mod; One more question please,Who, since the 1st century has/had the authority to declare any religious writing "inspired?"

Moderator - One has to study how the bible was put together to truly understand how the bible came to exist. It simply wasn't just a bunch of writings placed together in one book.
---1st_cliff on 3/26/06


Mod; Are you saying unless historians are inspired that their writings are a "joke?" Jesus verified the O.T. ,good enough for me! Why are you saying that unless the H.S. led the writers of the N.T. it's not true?

Moderator - God is our spiritual authority not men. If the Bible was written by just good men who were not inspired by the Holy Spirit, the Bible would just be another good book.
---1st_cliff on 3/26/06




Daniel,Leon; Peter wrote his letters circa 60/65 ce ,by this time Paul had led the group for 25/30 yrs. Not surprising, given the influence and zeal of Paul that he(Peter)could consider them "scripture!" The Holy Spirit is indeed a witness to everything, but the H.S. never wrote scripture!men did! Edited by H.S.? Pure conjecture! Mohamed, Joseph Smith,Mary Baker Eddy,J.F.Rutherford, (and the list goes on endlessly) all claim being led by Holy Spirit!

Moderator - 1st_cliff if you don't believe that the Holy Spirit lead the writers then the whole Bible would be a joke and I don't know why you would even want to be a Christian. Why did you want to become a Christian and what denomination are you part of?
---1st_cliff on 3/25/06


Touche' Daniel (on 3/24/06)! What you said goes directly to the heart of the matter & can't honestly be refuted by anyone. God's scriptural truth stands despite the "legions" of opposition.

Cliff's arguments are those of a blind man who's sitting in a dark room & looking for a black cat that isn't there. Let's not fight with him. Rather, let's collectively pray for his soul's deliverance.
---Leon on 3/25/06


1st_cliff: Not sure if you believe in Him or not, but I consider the Holy Spirit to be a very good eyewitness of all that happened and He corraborated what we have from Paul: I don't recall you ever commenting on the fact that PETER calls Paul's letters Scripture in 2 Peter 3:15-16; which makes them more than "hearsay"! These letters were not written in a cave and hidden. The NT is complementary, joint-effort material all edited by the Holy Spirit.
---Daniel on 3/24/06


Cliff "silence speaks 'voumes'" is an oxymoron and a logical absurdity.

The holes in your swiss cheese "theology" keep on getting bigger!
---John_T on 3/24/06


Cliff it does not matter what you like you gotta deal with what you got holes and all.
Remember if silence speaks so much as you say the 11 and Jesus were silent about Paul and Luke being wrong, so by your theory they musta been right in what they wrote.
---Elder on 3/23/06


Daniel; do you understand the "principles" of God's law? Jn.8.17 "in your own law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid" (2 eyewitnesses)not 2 hearsay witnesses! If they were going to mention all the things they were against they would need a 2nd bible! Besides I like cheddar, smooth and no holes.
---1st_cliff on 3/23/06


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1st_clif, apparently you refuse to see the point: It's *not* a case of Scripture being silent on two competing ideas never mentioned! It is YOU saying you don't believe what is already written there, just because YOU want to hear it from more than the Apostle Paul! Luke's account plus 1Cor.11 (and no meniton _against_ Communion) far outweighs YOUR "why didn't others write this?" since all of the NT's Gospels and Epistles complement each other as one work from the Spirit for God's Church.
---Daniel on 3/23/06


Daniel;Your right John was there,but so was Matthew, Peter,James,Jude, Either It was not said by Jesus or they thought it wasn't important enough to mention! Sorry John T but "silence speaks "voumes" Reasoning by deduction is most logical!
---1st_cliff on 3/22/06


There were only 12 at the last supper, all the original disciples. Luke was not one of them. But that does not invalidate what he says about it.
---alan_of_uK on 3/22/06


Cliff, nothing can be concluded from silence. It is trying to create a positive from a negative. It is logically impossible.

Your logic is flawed. (see Logic 101)Scriptural silence only proves Scriptural silence.

Therefore, your conclusions are false, and you remain holding a swiss cheese Bible, full of holes and gaps.
---John_T on 3/22/06


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For those who are unsure about LUKE (M.P., others?): Luke was very likely GENTILE and may, but not necessarily, become a Believer through Paul's ministry. Acts 16:10ff. is where use of "we" begins; implying that's when Luke joined Paul's missionary work (but Luke stayed in Philippi until Paul visited there again). Luke is named only by Paul: Col.4:14; 2Tim.4:11; Phm.1:24 (2Cor.8:18 is likely an allusion to Luke as well). Luke 1:2 very much implies he was *not* an eyewitness of Jesus' life!
---Daniel on 3/22/06


1st_Cliff: OK, since you want to 'play' at "arguments from silence" instead of accepting all of the New Testament, try this:

1) The Apostle John *was* at the Last Supper!
2) John lived way past when Paul wrote about Communion in churches.
3) Surely John in his last letters would say it should no longer be practiced, right?

He didn't, BECAUSE he agreed with it, that's why!

Stop trying to 2nd-guess Paul; 1 Corinthians is Scripture! (2 Peter 3:15-16)
---Daniel on 3/22/06


John T: It's not so much that neither Paul nor Luke were there ,it's just that the ones who were there said nothing about continuing the practice. Christ confirmed many OT happenings.No problem there.
---1st_cliff on 3/21/06


OOPS!
Please insert the word, "likewise" between the words "etc," and "the".

Then it will make sense
---John_T on 3/21/06


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Cliff: Rejecting the words of Luke, or Paul due to "not being there" is akin to rejecting the writer of Job because he did not hear the conversations, rejecting Moses because he did not hear the words of Adam, Eve, Noah, Abraham, Isaac and Joseph, etc, the writers of Esther, Ruth, many of the Historical Books, and many of Ezekiel's visions.

Thus, your view of the Bible is like a slice of Swiss cheese, full of holes and gaps.
---John_T on 3/21/06


It was ordained by Jesus, who is GOD. He ordained it before he went to die on the cross - we remember this institution of Holy communion on Maundy Thursday. (Matt. 26: 26-28)
---mirdza on 3/21/06


Surely Luke was one of Jesus' disciples but not one of the 12 apostles. I don't claim to totally understand the difference between apostles and disciples but I'm sure there would have been more than 12 disciples.
---M.P. on 3/21/06


Bruce I have been dealing with Cliff and his unbelief and view of Scripture for a long time. His purpose is to confuse and now he is condemning the Lord's Table.
You know that Adam did not write the Book of Genesis so I wonder if Cliff accepts that book since Moses was not there?
---Elder on 3/21/06


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Bruce; Sorry but Luke was not one of the twelve! Sure he "could have" been told lots of things,but at least one the attenders would have mentioned it if it was to be continued.
---1st_cliff on 3/21/06


Bruce .. WAS Luke one of the original disciples? I had always thought not.
---alan_of_uK on 3/21/06


Ordained by God.
---Eloy on 3/20/06


By Jesus. Communion is fellowship with God, between Jesus Christ and his people, by the spirit of believers with one another. The Lord's Supper is also known as in 1 Cor 10:16-17, because there is fellowship between Christ and his disciples, and the disciples with one another.
---Rebecca_D on 3/20/06


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[-2-] whether or not something he taught was just his own "inspired opinion" or direct from Jesus. I'm sure Paul learned many historic details of Jesus' life from Peter and others (like the Last Supper) before he began teaching too, not to mention what he learned from reading about the Messiah in Scripture! He was a Believer for MANY years before his missionary journeys began!
---Daniel on 3/20/06


[-1-] To summarize what Bruce said: Communion was indeed instituted by Jesus Himself, and given a fuller explanation by Paul as to why it should continue in all churches.
Paul said in Galatians 1:11-12: "For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ." Paul was also quite careful to point out in his letters... [cont.]
---Daniel on 3/20/06


Cliff,
Your anti-Paul point of view I choose to ignore, but surely you know that Luke was one of the disciples who WAS there? Or do you discount his eyewitness?
---Bruce5656 on 3/20/06


Bruce has given wonderful answers to this question. Straight from the Scripture noless.
---mima on 3/20/06


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Bruce; How could they "record" Jesus' words if they weren't there?and none who were there said this!
---1st_cliff on 3/20/06


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