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Sanctified But No Tongues

I gave my life to Christ since March 1976. I was sanctified on 17th January 1993. I attend a Bible believing Church, love God and desire the Holy Ghost baptism, but so far no experience. Tell me how?

Moderator - What do you mean by sanctified?

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"One point Rev. Herb, if there are false/conterfeit tongues, isn't it reasonable to conclude that there must be a genuine gift to falsify/counterfeit?"

Excellent question Daphne. Can't counterfeit something that doesn't already validly exist. Counterfeit money would not be counterfeit if there was nothing real to copy.
---Linda6563 on 8/31/07


A person must desire this gift from their hearts, and ask for it and pray without ceasing. The bible says you have not because you ask not. Speaking in tongues is a gift from the Holy Ghost and people misuse this gift, and use it on their terms trying to impress someone when in fact it isn't of God. Just keep praying, fast if you want to, but wait upon the Lord.
---Rebecca_D on 5/19/06


1. In 1Corinthians 14, he was not knocking speaking in tongues during praise & worship. In praise/worship you aren't talking to anyone, but God & He understands you when you speak in tongue.
---Rickey on 5/4/06


br>2. The part where Paul talked about keeping silent when there is no one to interpret was referring to when the Holy Spirit prompts you to speak out loud in tongues to the congregation. If you can't interpret or if no one else is there to interpret then you are to keep it silent.
3. If you or someone else can interpret then you are to speak it out.<
---Rickey on 5/4/06


4. You can tell when the Holy Spirit has a prophet word or tongues w/ interpretation by the atmosphere. When the atmosphere is set & everyone is in one accord desiring God He, Holy Spirit, will move. But if everyone is just going through the motions He, Holy Ghost, will be still because He is grieved/hurt. It hurts His feelings when folks grieve Him.
---Rickey on 5/4/06




5. My point is that every believer should speak in tongues & that there is a difference between you, as you will, speaking in tongue & being prompted by the Holy Spirit to speak. In a nut shell, that is what Paul was referring to.
---Rickey on 5/4/06


Hebrews 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. Tongues is a Holy Ghost endued with power experience. Biochemicals are of the flesh, tongues are spirit.
---Exzucuh on 5/4/06


Thomas:
"Most tongues today misused." How can you say THAT??

That requires knowledge that NO ONE has. You paint many with a nasty paint brush with that statement.

Having a bad experience with some pentecostals does not make the whole lot bad, besides, there is a legitimate, Scriptural test to determine if a tongues speaker is honoring God, or not.
---John_T on 5/4/06


PART ONE:
Donna,

There are several references to the laying on of hands in connection with the baptism in the Holy Ghost. That is not in dispute. However, there is no denying that we have clear evidence, from the other two examples I referred you to that it is not essential.
---Bruce5656 on 5/4/06


PART TWO:
With the clear examples of people receiving the baptism in the Holy Spirit independent of laying on of hands (in some cases), leaves the burden of proof on the part of one who insists that laying on of hands is necessary.

So I ask you, how do you reconcile your stand that laying on of hands is necessary with these two examples?
---Bruce5656 on 5/4/06




PART THREE:
re. Simon: Along with other passages that state and/or infer that tongues is the initial physical evidence of the baptism in the Holy Spirit, we have this example.

Clearly, when they received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, (yes, with the laying on of hands in this case) something happened that impressed Simon the sorcerer. No doubt Simon was quite jaded by the supernatural or pseudo-supernatural goings on of the demonic kind.
---Bruce5656 on 5/4/06


PART FOUR:
Something took place here that goes beyond a quiet inner working of the Holy Spirit as some suggest. What ever happened, Simon wanted to be able to do this to people and was willing to pay for the ability. We are told elsewhere that when people received the baptism in the Holy Spirit, they began to speak with tongues. There is every reason to believe this is what Simon saw in this case and that is why he was so impressed.
---Bruce5656 on 5/4/06


PART FIVE:
You said I rec'd the Baptism of the HS by the laying on of hands. How do you know you received the baptism in the Holy Spirit?
---Bruce5656 on 5/4/06


PART ONE:
Chris,
Right Bruce, That is because it is indicating that it is pointless to do it alone in the first place.

In order to make sense of the whole tongues debate it is necessary to see the distinction between the private and public use of tongues. Paul said 1 Cor 14:4, "He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church."
---Bruce5656 on 5/4/06


PART TWO:
The fact that it profits the body to prophesy or to speak in tongues with an interpretation following does not negate the benefit of personal, devotional use of tongues.
In this context, (personal vs. public) we understand that while Paul inferred that all do not speak in tongues (I Cor 12:30) he meant publicly.
---Bruce5656 on 5/4/06


PART THREE:
He did say I wish you all spoke in tongues. (I Cor 14:5) What would be the point of the whole church having the (public) gift of tongues? On the other hand, if he was telling us the truth that He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself, it would make perfect sense. Following that with but rather that you prophesied does not negate the first statement.
---Bruce5656 on 5/4/06


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PART FOUR:
Paul said he would pray and sing in the Spirit vs. with the understanding. There is no mention anywhere of singing in tongues to edify the body. I Cor 14:15
---Bruce5656 on 5/4/06


My understanding is sanctification is a life long process, it comes from God, not the other way around. The use of the term here, I think is rather jargonistic, unique to your sect. It is better to spend time in the study of scriptures than to try to self-induce tongues, which is a bio-chemical experience.
---MikeM on 5/4/06


So, believe me, I know what a bad experience is. But I also know the genuine that manifests in fruit. And I apologize to you also. All offenses and social injustices were taken by Jesus and put to death. I reckon them dead along with the nature that manifested those. That is why I never even believed or thought you had searing hatred for anyone.
---Linda6563 on 5/4/06


"Linda, my searing hate comment was not meant for you or anyone else directly...."

Yes, Chris, I understand those unpleasant experiences. I have been face to face with some of them and I know what you are talking about. I have left out of order fleshly charismatic services with a raging headache and so nauseous I could hardly stand. And it was blamed on me. I was told I was possessed of the devil and I was so naive I believed it. Talk about torment.
---Linda6563 on 5/4/06


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John T., Sorry, my mistake. Most tongues today misused.
---Thomas on 5/4/06


The infilling of the Holy Spirit sure brings forth a lot of ideas and emotions. The infilling of the Spirit is a gift from God because He loves us. It should be received by all believers.It is not hard to receive,once you are yielded. God promised it, He wants all of His children to have it. Just ask, have faith, and be filled. When the Spirit moves upon or in a believer, the flesh will react, this old body can't stand without being affected in the presence and power of the Spirit.
---Debbie on 5/4/06


Right Bruce, That is because it is indicating that it is pointless to do it alone in the first place. If a pipe or harp has no distinction how will you know the difference? Unless you speak in tongues words that are easily understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for you are speaking into the air or you may as well be talking to a wall.
1 Cor. 14:13
Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
---chris on 5/4/06


I guess I am going to step out of the gifts debates. I feel that I should be focusing on helping to lead the unsaved to christ rather than debating non essential doctrines with believers. Thanks to you all for the great debates and I'm sorry if I made anyone mad. Praise the Lord!
---chris on 5/4/06


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Bruce, how do you explain this scripture?Acts 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money.
Bruce, I know you are a Godly man, I can tell by your answers, but I rec'd the Baptism of the HS by the laying on of hands, not when I said the sinners prayer. The sinners prayer isn't even in the bible . This is just iron sharpening iron. I love you Bruce. I know you're a Godly man.
---Donna9759 on 5/4/06


Donna, bruce is right on this. The Holy Spirit is a package deal that comes with being born again. Baptism is an outward expression to publicly declare our Christianity.
---chris on 5/4/06


Linda, my searing hate comment was not meant for you or anyone else directly. It was meant as a general statement based on some very unplesant encounters that I have had. I apologize to you and anyone else that took offense to it. I should not have said it and do not have any sort of supressed feelings like that toward others.
---chris on 5/4/06


Chris,
In a public setting, yes a translation should be looked for.

In private, there is no indication that a translation is required when one is praying, singing/worshiping in tongues.
---Bruce5656 on 5/4/06


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Donna,
I answered the second part of your question on your new blog you just started.
HS Baptism By Laying On Hands
http://christianblogs.christianet.com/1146751780.htm#1146755279842
---Bruce5656 on 5/4/06


Darlene, I like your answer. Charity (love) never faileth.

Bruce, that scripture makes great sense. Even better if you continue reading. He doesnt want the understanding to be unfruitful, so he will pray with understanding. How shalt they say Amen if they dont understand. He continues telling us that if it is not understood it is pointless.
---chris on 5/4/06


Donna,
As for the purpose of the baptism in the Holy Spirit, Jesus addressed this in his parting speech to the disciples.

Acts 1:8, "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you" (remember He was already in them) "and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."
---Bruce5656 on 5/4/06


Bruce, you said: Every Christian has the Holy Spirit resident whether baptized in the Spirit or not. My question to you is: Then what's the purpose of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit if you already have the Spirit? Bruce, the Baptism is given by the laying on of hands (it's described in Acts). You also have to ask for it. No one is automatically filled with the Spirit, if they were, then why it is written in the Bible, "BE BAPTIZED" if it comes automatically. See my point?
---Donna9759 on 5/4/06


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Steve:
WAY OFF!! "If you havent been baptised by the Holy Ghost your not santified(saved)."

Ro8:9 "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

ALL christians have Holy Spirit indwelling them. There is no basis for your statement in the above verse, nor is sanctification the same as salvation.

Moderator - You are correct John. I didn't comment because it was so unbiblical I knew someone else would correct the statement.
---John_T on 5/4/06


Prologue PART ONE:
Steve,
You state that unless "baptized" in the Holy Ghost one is not saved citing Romans 8:9 Remember baptize means to be put within. Romans 8:9 speaks of the Holy Spirit in us not us in Him. Every Christian has the Holy Spirit resident whether baptized in the Spirit or not.
I Cor 12:13 Speaks of being placed in the body by the Holy Spirit and recieving the Holy
---Bruce5656 on 5/4/06


Prologue PART TWO:
Spirit within. Again nothing about being baptized in the Spirit there.
Eph 4:30 Again, nothing about the baptism in the Holy Spirit there.

With the moderators indulgence, I am going to re-post what I wrote in the GET TO THE POINT blog. After you have read this, would you please explain how you reconcile those scriptures with your point of view that there is no difference between recieving the Holy Spirit at conversion and the baptism in the Holy Spirit?
---Bruce5656 on 5/4/06


PART ONE:
At conversion, two things happen. We can see the effect of them in a changed life, but they cannot be observed. We are baptized into Jesus and we receive the Holy Spirit in us. There are no degrees of being a Christian. We are all equal in Christ. None has any advantage or favor. Acts 10:34 One Body, one head. Rom 12:4.5
---Bruce5656 on 5/4/06


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PART TWO:
First, a definition. Baptism = placed within. For example, in the case of water baptism we are placed within water, by a man (the baptizer).
There are several baptisms in the NT. Heb 6:2 speaks of the doctrine of baptisms
as being a fundamental of our faith. They are (not in order of occurrence):
---Bruce5656 on 5/4/06


PART THREE:
a. water baptism as mentioned above
I would like to think that we can agree that they did not baptize people in water unless they believed they were converted.

b. baptism into the body
Not every occurrence of baptism in scripture deals with water baptism. Romans 6 is a prime example of this. It describes our being placed within (baptized into) Jesus. Nothing about water here.
---Bruce5656 on 5/4/06


PART FOUR:
Who puts us within the Body? The Spirit is the baptizer. 1 Corinthians 12:13, "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body and have been all made to drink into one Spirit." This verse speaks of being placed in the Body and receiving the Holy Spirit in us. That takes place at conversion. It is the essence of becoming a Christian.
---Bruce5656 on 5/4/06


PART FIVE:
c. baptism in the Holy Spirit
Subsequent to conversion (receiving the Holy Spirit in you and being placed in the body) there is the baptism in the Holy Spirit as prophesied by John Matthew 3:11, "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:" and promised by Jesus Acts 1:5, "For John truly baptized with water; but
---Bruce5656 on 5/4/06


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PART SIX:
ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence."
Jesus is the baptizer in this case.

I have already given you several examples of, baptism in the Holy Spirit subsequent to conversion. However I will repeat them for you here.
---Bruce5656 on 5/4/06


PART SEVEN:
The disciples on Pentecost.
Jesus is raised from the dead. The work of redemption is complete and for the first time, instead of select individuals, for select tasks, as in the OT, the Holy Spirit is now free to take up residence in every believer. Jesus said: John 14:17, "Even the Spirit of truth dwelleth with you, and shall be in you." We see the first instance of this in the upper room following the resurrection.
---Bruce5656 on 5/4/06


PART EIGHT:
John 20:22, "he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:"

To these same, indwelt by the Holy Spirit believers, we have Jesus promise ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence." And of course we see what happened in Acts 2.

Acts 8 Stephen brought the gospel to Samaria. People delivered, healed and saved. Acts 8:12, "they believedconcerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were
---Bruce5656 on 5/4/06


PART NINE:
baptized, both men and women." This was not Johns baptism (Acts 8:16.)

Of these same converted, spirit indwelt, baptized in water Christians, we read: Acts 8:15-17, "Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus) Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost."
---Bruce5656 on 5/4/06


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PART TEN:
Either they were baptizing unconverted people, or there is a subsequent to conversion, baptism in the Holy Spirit.

Acts 9 Converted (Spirit indwelt) on the road to Damascus, Paul is brought to the house of Ananias. Ananias recognized his conversion and called him Brother Saul and told him the Lord hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost."
---Bruce5656 on 5/4/06


PART ELEVEN:
The Ephesians
Acts 19 Saved under Apollos ministry Paul asks them v.2, "Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?. He explains Christian baptism to them, they are baptized following which Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. Granted, they had only been baptized unto Johns baptism.
---Bruce5656 on 5/4/06


PART TWELVE:
but this is no indication that they were not already saved. However, it is only after their Christian baptism that we are told the Holy Spirit came upon them.

Once again, it is not reasonable to believe that Paul was given to baptizing in water unconverted individuals so these are saved, Spirit indwelt, people spoken of here.
---Bruce5656 on 5/4/06


Despite all your words against me, I never accused you of hating me or anyone else because I simply don't believe you do. Never even thought such a thing. You used the words "searing hatred". I usually tell people that you can't judge in someone else what you are not perfectly intimate with yourself.
---Linda6563 on 5/3/06


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" Linda/Bruce, thanks for twisting my words back at me."

Out of the abundance of your own heart you spoke against us. That is not twisting your words back at you. You spoke them against someone else and therefore must find that in your own mind or conscience. When the false witnesses spoke against Jesus, they called Him what they themselves were, placing on Him their own sin. Such is the nature of accusation.
---Linda6563 on 5/3/06


If you havent been baptised by the Holy Ghost your not santified(saved). Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Paul said that all true Christians were baptized into the body of Christ by the Holy Ghost (1 Cor. 12:13), and all true Christians were sealed with the Holy Ghost until the day of redemption (Eph. 4:30).
---Steve on 5/3/06


Thomas:
I am not pentecostal. You got that tag wrong, friend.

Bruce:
I respectfully disagree with you re: spiritual nature of tongues. Either it is from Holy spirit, pointing to Christ, or it is not.

If it is not, then the speaker may try to "fake it" as Chris said. In such a case, it is not genuine, a counterfeit designed to lead people astray. By definition, that is a spiritual aim, and thus it comes from our Enemy.
---John_T on 5/3/06


PART ONE:
Chris,
Not all tongues have an interpretation. There is a public and a private use of tongues. The private use is talked about in 1 Corinthians 14:4, "He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself;"
---Bruce5656 on 5/3/06


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PART TWO:
Paul talks about praying and singing in tongues 1 Cor 14:14-15, "if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also."

The only way that statement makes any sense is if he did not understand what was being prayed when he prayed or sang in the spirit."
---Bruce5656 on 5/3/06


Chris, there are fanatics on both sides ,and I have also seen what appears to be hatred from some who put down tongues and the gifts. Maybe a few Pentecostals believe you aren't saved unless you speak in tongues but that is the exception not the rule. It says something positive about the Pentecostal experience when we know there are 1/2 billion in the Pentecostal Belief,the 2nd largest Denomination in the world. If every Christian lived by the Law of Love each would weigh his words more carefully.
---Darlene_1 on 5/3/06


Chris, ask God. I am sure he was speaking mysteries in the spirit and that to God alone.
---Linda6563 on 5/3/06


Linda/Bruce, thanks for twisting my words back at me. I guess that means I have searing hate towards people for thinking that of them. Funny how it usually feels more like fear and anxiety.
---chris on 5/3/06


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chris, I appreciate you wish to voice your views. However and unfortunately you tend to belittle those who disagree, as do you Rev. Herb. You seem to assume that your negative experience means that you must be right. What a shame that you won't go deeper than your feelings/emotional baggage on this issue. Doctrine without experience tends to legalism. Experience without doctrine tends to license. I believe there is a balance to be found - and it isn't to the exclusion of either.
---daphn8897 on 5/3/06


Donna9759, what was the interpretation?
---chris on 5/3/06


"I respectfully suggest that your perception of a hateful attitude is more a function of your own negative attitude toward Pentecostals than reality. I see people passionate about what they believe, maybe even argumentative, but searing hate? I dont see that."

I wanted to say something to that effect but am glad you said it. You said it very well. A lot of times what we perceive is nothing more than our own carnality that we project outward so that we don't have to deal with it.
---Linda6563 on 5/3/06


Rev Herb and everyone. I've got to share this with you. I argued for many years with my cousin's husband about tongues. He didn't believe in them, I did. He was on his death bed, dying of cancer in 1991. People came and prayed for him, laid hands on him, prayed some more and he got the gift of tongues. After all those years of arguing about them, God gave them to him. Isn't that funny?
---Donna9759 on 5/3/06


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Ps. bruce, I dont have a negative attitude toward Pentecostals. I grew up in a Pentecostal church and did everything they did. I faked the tongues too. I dont have a negative attitude toward them, I love them dearly. I just believe that through studying the scriptures I have learned whats true and want to share it with others. I know that it is pointless because they also think their view is true, but I feel like I am not doing my duty if I dont share it.
---chris on 5/3/06


I havent seen it that bad here online bruce, but my encounters in reality are much different. I've been cursed at and some have even come close to knocking my lights out just for simply questioning their gifts. My pastor went over it in Bible study once and I saw a gleam in my Mom's eye that I hadnt seen in a long time. Scared me a bit.
---chris on 5/3/06


Ok, I guess my analogy was misunderstood. It was not meant to compare the gifts to cars. Just that they existed and now do not. But people still want them so they counterfeit them. One of the talking points used was that the gifts have to exist to be counterfeited. It was not meant to compare the gifts but to give an example that something can be copied without current existance.
---chris on 5/3/06


Chris,
"The reason I used those verses was because those that claim to have the gifts attack us "not for today" type with what seems like seering hate."

I respectfully suggest that your perception of a hateful attitude is more a function of your own negative attitude toward Pentecostals than reality. I see people passionate about what they believe, maybe even argumentative, but searing hate? I dont see that.
---Bruce5656 on 5/3/06


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John,
I dissagree that all "tongues" are of a spiritual nature. There is both sides of the coin to be considered spiritualy speaking of course but I have also heard people that were not under the infulence of any spirit but rather caught up in human emotion. There was nothing spiritual about it one way or the other. Tradgic and sad, but not spiritual.
---Bruce5656 on 5/3/06


John T., You pentecostals are set in your beliefs. I had just as soon attend the catholic church as the pentecostal church. I'm not a member of any physical church, I just want to belong to the spiritual church which is CHRIST.
---Thomas on 5/3/06


Bruce:
You miss my point ENTIRELY. The issue is NOT PERSONAL rather, it IS SPIRITUAL

There are both genuine and counterfeit tongues, and all have a spiritual nature, not personal. Only by asking the spirit giving utterance if Jesus has come in the flesh will any one of us get the correct answer as to the originator of the glossalia. (1 John 2:22-23)

We are urged to "check the spirits to determine if they are of God" because some obviously are not. (1 John 4:1)
---John_T on 5/3/06


Chris:
Bad analagy! Gifts of Holy Spirit are not used cars.

Nor are they obsolete, being replaced by newer things, or grossly inefficient like the Stanley Steamer, or early electric cars.
---John_T on 5/3/06


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You can't compare God and classic cars whose fashion went out of style and needed improved upon. God is eternal and never changes. Pentecost, just as Passover (and Tabernacles), was one of the feasts of the Lord and to nullify one, you must nullify all of them. Each one of those feasts of the Lord point to an aspect of the spiritual growth of the believer in Christ, just as each room of the Tabernacle of Moses does.
---Linda6563 on 5/3/06


Being sanctified is not a one time experience,but an ongoing work of the Spirit.In Luke 9:23,24 Jesus tells us daily to take up our cross deny ourselves and follow Him. The key word is daily. The cross is an instrument of death,not a burden to bare As Paul said "I die daily".We are baptised into the body of Christ at salvation .Abandon yourself to God,stop desiring for something you already have.
---william on 5/3/06


Good point Darlene. The difference is, I've said I dont mind those that claim to have the gifts. My mom claims to have the gift of tongues and she is saved even though I dont believe tongues are for today. The reason I used those verses was because those that claim to have the gifts attack us "not for today" type with what seems like seering hate. My rebuttles are not out of hate, but just an attempt to explain what I believe the scriptures say... not expecting anyone to change their opinions.
---chris on 5/3/06


Chris, I had a little chuckle because verses you gave Herb, Luke 6:22,Galatians 4:16,Matthew 5:11,encouraging him to hang in there,can also be applied to those who speak in tongues, and are being attacked for it by Herb and others. Interesting ,God's Word applies to all God's people no matter what Church Doctrine they have. I'm a simple person,believing all God's Word,for all God's people,what they choose to omit is between them and God,however any false doctrine anyone teaches will have to be paid for.
---Darlene_1 on 5/3/06


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Linda, here is an analogy for you. There are classic cars from the 50's that no longer are in existance. Back then, many people had them, but as for today the only way to get one is to buy a re-creation, not the real thing that came from the factories.

Many pretend to have gifts that existed in the past. Many will come and pretend they are Christ. 2 Thessalonians 2:9
Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
---chris on 5/3/06


Chris, one can tell the truth and not tell the whole truth. Herb's logic leaves out anything that doesn't line up with what he believes and says. Ex: Baptist being the only "real" church because John was "John the Baptist" and the gifts being done away with even though Paul speaks to the contrary. If you are a true witness, you tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God.
---Linda6563 on 5/3/06


Chris,
When I say Christian, I mean Christian not "person who calls them self christian but is not"
---Bruce5656 on 5/3/06


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