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Willing For Ecumenical Movement

How many of you are willing to unite the Christian Community? Do you think God wants division in the churches?

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 ---Dottie on 5/8/06
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Eric-"The Papacy is the mother of apostate protestantism" sound like the intolerant rhetoric I heard as a kid. As to moral, political issues working with good people of all faiths is good. (I see it as a scoutmaster) But autonomy of ones religion is paramount, to be respected- this is called pluralism. This is how 'mature' religious people act.

The others descend into exclusivist fanaticism, in reality a form of religious narcissum.
---MikeM on 10/3/07


I am praying every day for all Christians to let go of man's doctrinal teachings and to unite into one mind of Christ. The Holy Spirit CAN DO IT. I hope He wills it and will do it soon as we could be very powerful in the Lord for His glory. We could turn this country around and even help the world finally know Christian love and see many saved.:)
---splaa6685 on 10/3/07


Actually, I did say that, just not recently... I said that a long time ago, but it is just as true. Sorry, and thanks... Maybe it was lost somewhere.
---Geoff on 10/3/07


I didn't make that last statement to Ric with today's date. There's some mix up here.
---Geoff on 10/3/07


Furthermore Ric, even if the Roman church were given the authority (though we know it is not), then why does it contradict God when the godhead, angels, prophets, apostles and disciples agree with God; and when Peter was out of line he had to be corrected? Your own Keenan said there is no scriptural authority for the church's action in violation of Ex. 20:8-11.
---Geoff on 10/3/07




One good reason that non-denominational churches are gaining in attendance is that many do not want to be labeled with the denominational churches, particularly those that have problems. Many ask simply why they cannot have a fellowship with other christians, study the Bible and be just a generic christian. "Come out of her" may also be a command to leave those groups that are cults but non-Roman Catholic.
---lee on 8/20/06


I am very against the ecumenical movement. If the churches are to untie they must do it upon the truth, the teachings of Jesus. The Roman Papacy is the mother of apostate protestantism. If you unite your doctrines with her you unite with the dragon.

come "OUT" of her my people!
---eric on 8/18/06


Karen, you said it so beautifully, "when Christ died He cleared the balance on which the Old Testament sacrifices were only promissory notes." You mentioned Mat 5:17, "think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." If fulfil means destroy (or abolish) then that would make no sense, "think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to [destroy]."
---Geoff on 5/23/06


Ric:

Yes, I meant "Council of Trent"

Others and you notice that I fumble finger too much. My brain goes faster than my fingers!

Besides, when I was in school, typing class was for sissys and secretaries, not for jocks like me.
---John_T on 5/19/06


Ric:

Thanks for the research. From what electronic source did you get Early Church Fathers? I want to get a copy.

However, all the work does not prove that Peter was the first Pope or that the currch is founded upon him.

He and Paul were the most influential of the Apostles, to be sure, but the position falls falt in Acts 15-16 where Paul cut Peter down to size for siding with the Judiazers.

Calling Peter a pope is anachronistic: not consistent with his time and place
---John_T on 5/19/06




In coming together on this we must agree whether tradition can take precedence over the Bible. If it can then we must abide by dogma of the Roman church or any errant teaching that has been around long enough. If not then we must discard any teaching that is out of line, whether we are Protestant of Catholic.

Galatians 1:8
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
---Geoff on 5/19/06


My dear Eloy you've only demonstrated the Bible proves you wrong. We dont have free reign on biblical interpretation. 2 Peter 1:20 Not even scholarly traditional interpretation. Furthermore, these Roman Church interpretations arent even consistent with other scripture.

Ric demonstrates this by suggesting that Acts 20:7, 1 Cor 16:2, Col 2:16-17 or Rev 1:10 express that God changed the Sabbath to Sunday. Where does it say Sunday's the Lords Day? May I suggest Ex 20:10 and Mark 2:28 and Luke 6:5?
---Geoff on 5/19/06


Ric - the Gnostics very much used apostolic tradition to support their belief system. Perhaps the Roman Church simply followed suit.

The problem with the RCC stand on tradition is that much of it is unwritten and thus unverifiable unlike what we see in the Word of God. And to base a belief on tradition is to believe in something that cannot be validated.
---lee on 5/19/06


Mr. Moderator, please answer:1. You said Cults claim the same regarding an authentic apostolic tradition shared by Orthodox and Catholics. Please give me more then one source (a cult) for your statement.

Moderator - I can't see in this screen so please directly quote me so I can respond.
---Ric on 5/19/06


Ric, I believe your mistake is in the word "Church" you are thinking Catholic church, but "Church" means the body of Christ. Two very different churches. One follows traditions more then doctrine. And the Word of God is not final authority. Thier denominational church is. The Church spoken of in Scripture is, "the body of Christ" follows Scripture with no traditions ever overruling the Word of God.
---Lupe2618 on 5/19/06


lee, remember that no matter how smart Paul was, he was killing Christians under the law. Once Christ revealed himself to Paul, he had to relearn everything that he knew and thought was right, because he was educated by man.
---chris on 5/19/06


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Eloy, read the passages I put down to make it easier for you to understand. They are God's word and they are truth. God is unchanging. His nature is the same from infinite time to now and forever.
---karen on 5/19/06


The Gideons International is an organization that brings people from different evangelical organizations together for a specific purpose. They do not discuss doctrinal differences at any of their meetings but advocate respect for each others convictions. That is the way it should be among Christians of different persuasions.
---lee on 5/19/06


11. it was fulfilled, but not annulled or abolished (Matthew 5:17-19). When Christ died He cleared the balance on which the Old Testament sacrifices were only promissory notes. Yet in the moral law, nothing has change. The moral law shows the sinner his only hope is in Christ. How else can he see his sin if there is no law? If you do away with God's moral law, how can he see himself as sinning? Not anything hard to understand. God is Immutable, never changing.
---karen on 5/19/06


t3

You see no baiting. OK. I see it as a possibility.

Thus, I am asking A Catholic to clarify the position, that is why I asked the Q as I did.
---John_T on 5/19/06


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No Eloy, you miss interpreted the passages. Until you learn the Character, attributes and Nature of God, you will never be able to understand how all the Scriptures come together. You cannot take a passage that is implicit and make it explicit. If it implies something we as readers of God's word should find out what that implication is. Haven't you ever taken a hermeneutic class? God's nature never changes. The moral nature of God is the same. In the case of the ceremonial law,
---karen on 5/19/06


How come your understanding of scripture is not the same as the early Christians?
Your kind of belief does not reflect authentic Christian tradition. I have given several quotes where are yours?
---Ric on 5/19/06


18. John Calvin(A Protester)
The Church is founded upon Peter, because it is said, "On this rock," &c., is undeserving of notice, not to say of refutation. Some of the Fathers so expounded!(Book 4, Chapter 6: Of the primacy of the Romish see)
---ric on 5/19/06


17.
Irenaeus



"Matthew also issued among the Hebrews a written Gospel in their own language, while Peter and Paul were evangelizing in Rome and laying the foundation of the Church" (Against Heresies, 3, 1:1 [A.D. 189]).
---ric on 5/19/06


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16.
Clement of Alexandria



"[T]he blessed Peter, the chosen, the preeminent, the first among the disciples, for whom alone with himself the Savior paid the tribute [Matt. 17:27], quickly grasped and understood their meaning. And what does he say? Behold, we have left all and have followed you [Matt. 19:27; Mark 10:28]" (Who Is the Rich Man That Is Saved? 21:35 [A.D. 200]).
---ric on 5/19/06


15. Augustine
"[On this matter of the Pelagians] two councils have already been sent to the Apostolic See [the bishop of Rome], and from there rescripts too have come. The matter is at an end; would that the error too might be at an end!" (Sermons 131:10 [A.D. 411]).
---ric on 5/19/06


14.
Council of Constantinople I



"The bishop of Constantinople shall have the primacy of honor after the bishop of Rome, because his city is New Rome" (canon 3 [A.D. 381]).
---ric on 5/19/06


13.Ignatius of Antioch



"Ignatius . . . to the church also which holds the presidency, in the location of the country of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honor, worthy of blessing, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy of sanctification, and, because you hold the presidency in love, named after Christ and named after the Father" (Letter to the Romans 1:1 [A.D. 110]).
---ric on 5/19/06


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12.Irenaeus



"It is possible, then, for everyone in every church, who may wish to know the truth, to contemplate the tradition of the apostles which has been made known to us throughout the whole world. And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the apostles and their successors down to our own times, men who neither knew nor taught anything like what these heretics rave about" (Against Heresies 3:3:1 [A.D. 189]).
---ric on 5/19/06


11.Hegesippus



"When I had come to Rome, I [visited] Anicetus, whose deacon was Eleutherus. And after Anicetus [died], Soter succeeded, and after him Eleutherus. In each succession and in each city there is a continuance of that which is proclaimed by the law, the prophets, and the Lord" (Memoirs, cited in Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History 4:22 [A.D. 180]).
---ric on 5/19/06


10.Council of Laodicea



"Christians should not Judaize and should not be idle on the Sabbath, but should work on that day; they should, however, particularly reverence the Lords day and, if possible, not work on it, because they were Christians" (Canon 29 [A.D. 360]).
---ric on 5/19/06


9.Ignatius of Antioch



"[T]hose who were brought up in the ancient order of things [i.e. Jews] have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lords day, on which also our life has sprung up again by him and by his death" (Letter to the Magnesians 8 [A.D. 110]).
---ric on 5/19/06


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8.The Letter of Barnabas



"We keep the eighth day [Sunday] with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead" (Letter of Barnabas 15:68 [A.D. 74]).
---ric on 5/19/06


7.The Didache



"But every Lords day . . . gather yourselves together and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one that is at variance with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned" (Didache 14 [A.D. 70]).
---ric on 5/19/06


6. Scripture such as Acts 20:7, 1 Corinthians 16:2, Colossians 2:16-17, and Revelation 1:10 indicate that, even during New Testament times, the Sabbath is no longer binding and that Christians are to worship on the Lords day, Sunday, instead.
---ric on 5/19/06


5.Eusebius of Caesarea



"At that time [A.D. 150] there flourished in the Church Hegesippus, whom we know from what has gone before, and Dionysius, bishop of Corinth, and another bishop, Pinytus of Crete, and besides these, Philip, and Apollinarius, and Melito, and Musanus, and Modestus, and, finally, Irenaeus. From them has come down to us in writing, the sound and orthodox faith received from tradition" (Church History 4:21).
---ric on 5/19/06


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4.Irenaeus



"As I said before, the Church, having received this preaching and this faith, although she is disseminated throughout the whole world, yet guarded it, as if she occupied but one house. She likewise believes these things just as if she had but one soul and one and the same heart; and harmoniously she proclaims them and teaches them and hands them down, as if she possessed but one mouth. (Against Heresies 1:10:2 [A.D. 189]).
---ric on 5/19/06


3.
Athanasius
"But you are blessed, who by faith are in the Church, dwell upon the foundations of the faith, and have full satisfaction, even the highest degree of faith which remains among you unshaken. For it has come down to you from apostolic tradition, and frequently accursed envy has wished to unsettle it, but has not been able" (Festal Letters 2:7 [A.D. 330]). 29).
---ric on 5/19/06


2.Basil the Great



"Of the dogmas and messages preserved in the Church, some we possess from written teaching and others we receive from the tradition of the apostles, handed on to us in mystery. (The Holy Spirit 27:66 [A.D. 375]).
---ric on 5/19/06


1.Augustine



"[T]he custom [of not rebaptizing converts] . . . may be supposed to have had its origin in apostolic tradition, just as there are many things which are observed by the whole Church, and therefore are fairly held to have been enjoined by the apostles, which yet are not mentioned in their writings" (On Baptism, Against the Donatists 5:23[31] [A.D. 400]).
---ric on 5/19/06


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I was interested to read herb's comment about the WCC existing to unite all religions. My own observtion is that the WCC tries to bring Christian churches to talk together, and work together on certain issues, but not to get the denominations to ditch their different doctrines.
Still less do I see any evidence whatsoever of the WCC having any intention of trying to unite the religions
---alan8869_of_UK on 5/19/06


karen, re-read the scriptures which I have taken the liberty to quote below, making it easier for the reader not having to look them up for themself.
---Eloy on 5/19/06


geoff, you misapply the scriptures to mean something they do not: "Think not that I came to undo the law or the Prophets: I came not to undo the law, but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, till heaven and earth pass, one mandate or one point will not fail from the law, until all happen." And he did fulfill the law and the Prophets, every single thing written about him was fulfilled, and on the cross he cried, "It is finished", and he did not say, it is undone.
---Eloy on 5/19/06


karen, I literally cited the scriptures below, therefore if I am wrong as you wrongly perceive, then the scriptures which I cited are also wrong, and that is not possible because scripture cannot be broken. But you will believe whatever you desire.
---Eloy on 5/19/06


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geoff, I am a defender of the Holy Bible, therefore the Bible proves me right. But you will believe whatever you desire.
---Eloy on 5/19/06


OK, OK, not sermonizing here... My point is just that if we walk in the light or the truth of God's word, we are united in obedience. God wants no schisms (1 Corinthians 12:25) in the body, but he wants us to come out and be separate from the false church... (Revelation 18:4). Even those of us who say we're not in the Church of Rome but our actions say we are.
---Geoff on 5/18/06


But what is this light that causes us to fellowship?

Isn't this it? 1 John 1:5

"This then is the message which we have heard of Him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all."
---Geoff on 5/18/06


One major problem with man's interpretation of scripture is that every man is right in his own eyes. I know I have misinterpreted much in my years. Asking for divine revelation, praying as you read, a willingnees to lay down being right, are simple means God honors. He delights to reveal His truth, HIMSELF to us.
---christina on 5/18/06


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The clearest answer to these questions is found in 1 John 1:7

"But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin."
---Geoff on 5/18/06


I appreciate Darlene. When it comes to man's version of coming together all the examples I know involve watering down (compromising) conviction. There's a big difference between compromise and surrendering to the truth of God's word. This is a work that God does. When He convicts our hearts our integrity is tested. Let's be honest with ourselves. Will we hang on to unsubstantiated error for tradition sake or will we recognize when the Holy Spirit convicts us of the truth? Isn't that how we come together?
---Geoff on 5/18/06


When you try to unite denominations someone has to renounce what they believe sooner or later. No,I would never go to a meeting in a church that had united several denominations ,too much watering down some beliefs because they wouldn't be acceptable. I am not against denominations meeting together in nonchurch meetings,I think Womens Aglow Fellowship has wonderful anointed meetings which promotes love of each other, and tolerence of different beliefs without leaving one's own.
---Darlene_1 on 5/18/06


t3 - "Non of the apostle of Jesus had PhD"

Perhaps St. Paul did (or at least was the most educated formally) and he was used most in advancing the gospel and in writings of the New Testament.

Ignorance is not bliss when it comes to spiritual things or in contending for the faith. If we are to rightly divide the word of God, we need to study (2 Tim.2:15 KJV)and the more studied we are the most likely we will have eduational degrees.
---lee on 5/18/06


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Usually Christians that have a higher education - you know that ones that are capable of doing the proper type of research - are the ones that have the greater understanding of theology. They are the ones that the Lord has called into the teaching ministry of the church; and they write the books.

Howbeit, spirituality is not a function of education as that ignorant old lady that sets in the front pew could have a much deeper relationship with Christ than most of us.
---lee on 5/18/06


John T: I don't see any baiting by A_Catholic. This is an open forum.

Anyone here with PhD does not mean that they carry weight and is always right or is smarter than the others on this forum. We are equal in God's eye.

Therefore, we should boast about Jesus but not ourselves.

Non of the apostle of Jesus had PhD
---t3 on 5/18/06


What is a PhD anyway? Isnt it awarded to us by man? Is man really qualified to rate another mans intelligence? Does it take mans stamp of approval from within mans educational system to determine who is eligible to speak on a topic? Can you get a PhD in Bible scripture and if so, is it awarded by God? Hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? Isn't the wisdom of this world foolishness with God? The foolishness of God is wiser than men.
---chris on 5/18/06


A Catholic, the scholars of Jesus day were wrong. God does not require academics but willingness to hear and obey.

In fact:
The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. Ps 19:7

But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty. 1 Cor 1:27
---Geoff on 5/18/06


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Perhaps Eloy is referring to Ex 21:24, Lev 24:20 & Deut 19:21 an eye for an eye. In Matt 5:38 Jesus corrected abuse and misapplication of fair rules protecting the unborn, underprivileged and penal system. The Bible OT & NT support the death penalty. See the contexts. Jesus did not contradict the OT, only Bible of His day. He explained and rescued it from abuse. We must do better than that. Jesus supported the OT (Matt 7: 2, Luke 6:31). Like Paul He demonstrated a more excellent way 1 Cor. 12:31-13:1.
---Geoff on 5/18/06


A-CATHOILIC:
Seems as if you are trying to bait some of us here.

What, other than having the Catholic Encyclopedia on hand makes you qualified to determine "PhD-quality posts"?

More to the point, what are you doing to unite, as the first Q in the thread asks?

Most of what I have seen here is your saying "Catholics are right, Protestants are wrong! Lets revisit the Reformation!"

That is hardly unifying
---John_T on 5/18/06


John T, schools are provided with knowledgeable teachers and not just anyone who walks in and states s/he wants to teach history, maths or whatever.

The same applies to Bible study.

I don't see too much PhD style posts in here. Most are individual, inexperienced interpretations.
---A_Catholic on 5/18/06


Eloy, the Bible proves you wrong. Jesus preached from the OT. "It is written..." There was no NT at the time. Secondly, the OT and NT are in complete harmony and agreement. Show me one instance of disagreement. That's because God doesn't change His mind.

"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled" Matthew 5:18
---Geoff on 5/18/06


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V. What I noticed you do, is that you take a passage and make it law unto itself. The statement then becomes legalistic. When a passage is Explicitly stated in Scripture, that passage stands on itself. When a passage is implicitly stated, it is our job to see what that implication is, to reconcile all Scripture as a whole. Not one passage on itself. A well study reader will look at Scripture as a whole in order to make all passages agree with each other, otherwise you will have many contradictions.
---karen on 5/18/06


1V. that a "lawful use of the law" was the restraint of evildoing. Thus by making humans aware that some actions are morally wrong, the law serves at least to some degree as an inhibitor of evildoing. Another reason for the law is to act as a custodian to bring individuals to Christ (Gal.3:22-24). By showing them their sinfulness, the law serves as a guide or tutor. It shows them that their only hope for justification is through Christ.
---karen on 5/18/06


111. Some of the purposes of the law are spoken of in Galatians 3:19, where it teaches that it was given "because of transgression" or, "to make wrongdoing a legal offense." Thus one primary purpose of the law was to make humans consciously aware of the distinction between good and evil, between right and wrong. A related reason is found in 1 Tomothy 1:8-11, which teaches that the law is good if one uses it lawfully. From the context it becomes evident
---karen on 5/18/06


11. The moral aspect of the law reflects the moral nature and perfections of God. Since God's moral nature remains unchanging, the moral law remains unchanging and is as relevant for the believer today as for the believers to whom it was given. The Christian is dead to the condemning power of the law (Romans 8:1-3), but still very much under its command of obedience as a guide to right living before God (Romans 3:31; Romans 6; 1 Cor. 5; 6:9-20).
---karen on 5/18/06


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Eloy, while most of what you wrote is true, and what Ric wrote I don't agree with, you are wrong again in your answer that "all that came before Christ is abolished" in other words you are saying that all the laws from the Old Testement were done away with. That statement is not true at all. Of course you are going to say, "believe what you want to believe" or something like that to me but for one, the moral laws of the Old are still in effect. Those moral laws never change.
---karen on 5/18/06


ric, I am not moved by the enemy spreading his falsehood around the world. And the Apostles did not teach traditions, but instead they taught the gospel from Christ.
---Eloy on 5/18/06


Geoff, generally all that came B.C. is abolished, and everything that came from the mouth of Christ is currently inforce: the O.T. is pro-death sentence: take an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life; but the N.T. is anti-capital punishment: when struck turn the other cheek, forgive the offender, love your enemy; etc. You cannot serve the O.T. Levitical-Mosaic Laws together with the N.T. Judaic-Messianic Laws, for they are contrary to each other. The old is B.C., and the new is A.D.
---Eloy on 5/18/06


Jesus said, "You all have heard that it has been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say to you, That you all resist not evil: but whoever will strike you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also. Forgive, and you all will be forgiven. Love your enemies." So if you take a life for a life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burning for burning, wound for wound, and stripe for stripe, then you're not following the Law of Jesus Christ.
---Eloy on 5/18/06


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If the Old Law was good enough for salvation and entrance to heaven, then Jesus is dead in vain, and he had no need to come to earth. But the fact is the O.T. is not good enough and Jesus did come, and he did give us a New Law. Jesus said obey him and his Commandments and you will have eternal life. Jesus did not say obey the old covenant and you will be saved, instead Jesus told us, "If you all love me, MY commandments keep", he did not say, MOSES' commandments keep.
---Eloy on 5/18/06


Jesus frequently said, "You all have heard that said to them from the beginning: but I say to you..." So he puts down the O.T. law, and then establishes his second N.T.law. Please read Matthew 5:21,22,27,28,31-39,43,44. And hopefully you will see the big difference between the O.T. laws from Moses and N.T. laws from Christ.
---Eloy on 5/18/06


part 1: "But if the ministry of death, written engraved in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly see the face of Moses for the glory of his look; which was to be done away: How will not the ministry of the Spirit be rather glorious?" II Corinthians 3:7,8.
---Eloy on 5/18/06


part 2: "And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not steadfastly look to the end of that which is abolished. But their minds were blinded: for up to this day remains the same vail untaken away in the reading of the Old Testament; which is done away in Christ. But even up to this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it will turn to the Lord, the vail will be taken away." II Corinthians 3:13-16.
---Eloy on 5/18/06


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part 3: "I do not set aside the grace of God: for if through Law righteousness, then Christ died in vain. Therefore the Law was our tutor till Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a tutor. But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forward his Son, made of a woman, made under the Law, to redeem them that were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption of sons." Galatians 2:21; 3:24,25; 4:4,5.
---Eloy on 5/18/06


part 4: "But now, after that you all have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn you all again to the weak and beggarly elements, to where you all desire again to be in bondage? You all observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, else I have bestowed upon you labor in vain." Galatians 4:9-11.
---Eloy on 5/18/06


part 5: "Tell me, you all that desire to be under the Law, do you all not hear the Law? For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two Covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which genders to bondage, which is Agar. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all." Galatians 4:21,22,24,26.
---Eloy on 5/18/06


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