Catholic Mass Secrets
Anyone remember when Catholic masses were all in Latin? You were expected to respond, by rote, whether or not you understood the Latin. The Catholic school I went to discouraged personal reading of the bible also. I know much has changed, but now I question why the need for such secrecy and control?
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---christina on 5/17/06
Helpful Blog Vote (5)
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Ashley,you have written repeatedly that man is evil, diabolical, ruled by the devil, etc. That is not true Christian teaching. Man is affected by Original sin and in need of Christ's redemption, but the idea that man is essentially evil never entered Christian thought before John Calvin started his heresy. |
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---Nathan on 10/12/09 |
Chris, your Catechism quote is correct but misunderstood. Catholics can have personal biblical interpretations. The magisterium officially interpreting scripture means it discerns the universal meaning for humanity. Every protestant church interpreting the Bible itsself leads to disparate ideas that belie the universality of revealed scripture. The Bible's books have different human authors,literary styles, groups they were originally addressed to, and communicate different aspects of the message of salvation. That is not saying individuals should not read the Bible and study to understand and interpret, but the salvation message, while deeply personal, is objective because God addresses the same message to everyone throughout time and history. |
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---Nathan on 10/12/09 |
there was nothing secret about the latin mass. it was actually a unifying thing. think for a moment, you are visiting a church in a place not your home, where they speak a different language, would you feel welcome if you didn't know the language? Probably not, but if you knew the latin mass and everyone used it then you would be at home in any church in the world. The catholic schools taught latin, as did most schools, it was a language of unity not a secret. |
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---Jared on 5/25/07 |
there is a trend to go back to latin, only because of the highly spiritual experience of it. many people feel like it connects them to the worshipers of the past as well as the future. where they are all joining together in one voice and language. Does God care? I doubt it, but if there is a return to latin there will need to come with it a return of education. |
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---Jared on 5/25/07 |
Jack, Palestinian Jews often rejected other languages and only learned them if their vocation required it (i.e. Matthew likely knew Greek). Common Targums for that area were in Aramaic, as this was used more often than Hebrew. There are some direct quotes from Jesus in the Greek manuscripts that are in Aramaic not Greek, indicating that He was speaking Aramaic to His followers. |
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---lorra8574 on 5/25/07 |
Jack P2: If you read Paul's epistles, Paul frequently referred to Peter as Cephas. Jesus changed Simon's name to Cephas, but as Christianity spread out of Palestine, he became known as Petros. Paul could also speak both Greek and Hebrew because he was from Tarsus. The Diaspora Jews were the opposite and few were literate in Hebrew but were predominantly Greek speaking. The spread out from Palestine was very rapid and had begun before the fall of Jerusalem which is why early Christians used the LXX. |
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---lorra8574 on 5/25/07 |
"POPE BENEDICT XVI plans to bring back the celebration of mass in Latin, overriding a rare show of protest from senior cardinals.
With a papal decree said to be imminent, Catholic publishers in Rome are preparing new editions of the Latin missal. They have sent proofs to Vatican authorities for approval, the Rome newspaper La Repubblica reported yesterday". |
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---NVBarbara on 5/24/07 |
I read recently that the current Pope intends for the Mass to go back to Latin, as it was before the 2nd Vatican Council. |
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---NVBarbara on 5/24/07 |
**When the Latin Vulgate was first put into use, and for much of its history prior to the Reformation, Latin was a language that most Christians did have in common, no matter where they lived.**
In the west, anyway.
The unusual thing about the Vulgate (very much the Good News for Modern Man of its time) was that it was translated directly from the Hebrew (in the OT), unlike previous Latin versions made from the LXX. |
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---Jack on 5/24/07 |
**and Jesus spoke and taught mostly in his aramatic language not greek**
Oh, really? Why not?
EVERYONE in that part of the world had to speak Greek in order to get along. It had been the lingua franca of the East since the time of Alexander.
What langauge do you think He spoke to the Syro-Phoenecian woman or Centurion? You don't actually think it was Hebrew, do you? |
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---Jack on 5/24/07 |
Christina, that is very sad, but I do not doubt that it occurred. When the Latin Vulgate was first put into use, and for much of its history prior to the Reformation, Latin was a language that most Christians did have in common, no matter where they lived. |
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---lorra8574 on 5/24/07 |
Ashley if you read the whole context it is clear to many that Jesus is confering pastoral leadership onto Peter. Every group / community of people have leaders. Even Protestants have leaders. Leadership is a gift. Just as Jesus gives every single one of us gifts. We should not covert other people's and just accept that Jesus confered the gift of pastoral leadership to Peter. |
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---Ed on 5/24/07 |
2 Timothy
2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
2:15 STUDY TO SHEW THYSELF APPROVED UNTO GOD.. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
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---Toby on 5/24/07 |
2 Timothy 2:15
Study means "learn," "analyze, investigate, examine, scrutinize," or "earnestly contemplate." Greek word means to "make speed," "to hurry," "to make earnest effort; be prompt to labor." "Study" is rendered "be diligent," "work hard," or "do your best."
It applies to a minister or laymember, in principle it applies to everyone as sons of God, having His Spirit. |
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---Toby on 5/24/07 |
Well Mr. or Mrs. ED for your info the not all the gospel was written in Greek, and Jesus spoke and taught mostly in his aramatic language not greek |
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---Paul on 5/24/07 |
** Ed: That Gospel was written in Greek not Aramaic.**
Many scholars from early times are of the conviction that Matthew was originally written in either Aramaic or Hebrew. |
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---Jack on 5/24/07 |
Lorra: "My mother also went to Catholic School and was taught Latin so that she could understand the Mass. Further, missals have often been provided in the vernacular so that those who did not know Latin could still understand"
At the RC schools I attended, latin was not taught until high school, but we memorized lots in latin, sometimes with translations, often not. As for the missiles, although I recall seeing them, they were not widely available so many went without understanding |
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---Christina on 5/24/07 |
My post is for both catholics and protestants. if people would read things in the spirit, they would understand so much more and would not follow false teachings of man. use common sense and the intelligence God gives each one of us. if you put your faith in man, you will be hurt, abused because satan rules the hearts of man. if you receive inspiration from God, can satan touch it or is it pure, holy and edifies our souls. the gates of hell cannot prevail against it. thus spirit of revelation, NOT Peter. |
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---ashley on 5/23/07 |
Ashley.
What are you suggesting by Peter denying Jesus three times. When our Lord says to Peter:' And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon aBar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not brevealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven." - It was Peter who recognized Jesus was the Christ. And following this Jesus then goes on to say "and on this rock' etc.. |
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---Ed on 5/24/07 |
Ashley, just where in the Bible does it say any of what you wrote in your recent post? About the Church not being founded on Peter. I know that Peter did deny Christ three times, but the rest of the Apostles never showed up at all, which is why Jesus asked Peter, not Paul or James or John, to feed His sheep - three times. |
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---lorra8574 on 5/23/07 |
Ashley
"People love to deceive others" - you mean Catholics?
That is an easy thing to say. Catholics can say that Protestants love to deceive Catholics over this. That would be unfair. Catholics believe this out of honesty (whether you believe they are right to believe this or not). To say they are being deceptive and love to be so is just wrong - plain and simple. |
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---Ed on 5/23/07 |
For the umpteenth time, Petros is the masculine form of the feminine noun "petra", they both mean the exact same thing. Petros does not exist as a noun other than as a reference to Peter for whom it was created. Prior to the New Testament, petros was not used in the Greek language. |
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---lorra8574 on 5/23/07 |
People love to deceive others. Jesus said upon this rock He would build his church, he meant the spirit of revelation, not Peter, Paul or Mary. man is carnal and devilish, peter denied the Christ three times. Paul was appointed leader of the twelve apostles, not Peter, satan can influence any man or woman on earth and deceive them, but inspiration from God is incorruptable. truth cannot be distorted or changed. it is eternal. too bad many are deceived by the vain teachings of man. |
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---ashley on 5/23/07 |
TS you need to read your bible then because no where does it say anything about the catholic church being Christ's church, the catholic church is everything the bible speaks against! Idolary, peganism, useless ceremonies,etc. learn your catholic churches history and then make comments, Hashem Yeshua, in Jesus name the truth will be known! |
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---PAul on 5/23/07 |
People love to deceive others. Jesus said upon this rock He would build his church, he meant the spirit of revelation, not Peter, Paul or Mary. man is carnal and devilish, peter denied the Christ three times. Paul was appointed leader of the twelve apostles, not Peter, satan can influence any man or woman on earth and deceive them, but inspiration from God is incorruptable. truth cannot be distorted or changed. it is eternal. too bad many are deceived by the vain teachings of man. |
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---ashley on 5/23/07 |
** Anyone remember when Catholic masses were all in Latin? You were expected to respond, by rote, whether or not you understood the Latin.**
Without getting into a fruitless argument over liturgical langauge (some of which sounds like the arguments for the KJV over modern idiom in the Bible), there were ALWAYS bi-lingual missals and prayerbooks that had the vernacular in parallel columns. |
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---Jack on 5/23/07 |
**You were expected to respond, by rote, whether or not you understood the Latin.**
Would any purpose be served in pointing out a historical fact?
As a Palestinian Jew, Our Lord NEVER attended a service held in the vernacular. Services, prayers, and even the Scripture itself were all in HEBREW, which had ceased to be the spoken language some centuries before. Aramaic was the vernacular, and Greek the lingua franca, which EVERYONE spoke since the time of Alexander. |
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---Jack on 5/23/07 |
Ed: That Gospel was written in Greek not Aramaic. Where greek did not suffice aramiac was inserted. We find Jesus refers to Himself (countless Scripture show Jesus the Rock) saying "Thou art a pebble On this Rock (Me) I will build My Church"
Jesus did not call Peter a Rock. Very next instance Jesus says to Peter "get behind Me satan!" Satan not Rock nor is Peter. Petra (monolith) is not Petros (pebble). Catholics by tradition will never accept this and ignore James' Presiding. |
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---TS on 5/23/07 |
**The Catholic school I went to discouraged personal reading of the bible also.**
A friend of mine, in his upper 50's, went to a RC school before Vatican 2, and had to memorize each Sunday's Gospel in English and recite it to the nun teaching religion.
And can you tell me where the Bible recommends personal Bible reading? Give book, chapter, and verse in your answer. |
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---Jack on 5/23/07 |
TS
Catholic theology doesn't say anything. It is the Bible that says Jesus made Peter pastorl leader. Protestants refuse to accept this. Just as they rejected ascetiscm and apostolic poverty. They also introduced the dreadful Solo Fide (and worse: Calvinistic predestination). And how often do you hear of Protestants complaining about their pastors being corrupt and worldly. Lastly Protestants don't have a Church. They are a disparate group of believers. |
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---Ed on 5/23/07 |
Ed: I have to disagree because Christ did not make Peter His Pastoral Leader on earth. I know Catholic theology says he was the first pope yet it was James who presided over the councils in Acts and rendered "his decision" Christ is the Head, the rest are the body and the Spirit of Truth is to guide them and None are to seek the supremecy.
I agree there are many wonderful Cahtolics and Protestants. Those doing Christs will are the True Body. |
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---TS on 5/22/07 |
John C, you are exactly right. The Catholic Church holds their congergation at bay. They are lied to and they think that these ungodly practices are from God. I know that there are many intelligent catholics, but it means very little to God if they don't follow the truth. I was a Catholic and I will never be one again. I have found the truth. God bless. |
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---Donna on 5/16/07 |
Christina::In every walk of life there are good bad sincere & indifferent.this is most prevalent in offices of authority govts banks churches police ECT but who do we model our lives after.be it in Latin french German Or English which are modes of Communication.Jesus was (God & MAN) who asked us to follow HIM so why do we have to look at defaulters as we are not growing in their image but God/mam Jesus Image . |
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---Emcee on 5/16/07 |
1. John
As a Catholic and with a degree in Medieval History i half agree with you.
Over the centuries there have definetly being those in the Church who have used religion to control others - power. But, by the same token, an awful lot who didn't. Catholic priests, bishops and bishops of Rome who were genuine pastors first and foremost. Many of them from the religious orders i.e The Franciscans, The Benedictines, The Jesuits, The Dominicans, The Carmelites - as well as from non religious orders. |
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---Ed on 5/16/07 |
2. John
Don't forget that Christ talks about His Church. When you look at "protestants" they are a diverse group of over thousands of denominations. So what is the Church Jesus talks about? He made Peter his pastoral leader here on Earth. The Catholic Church follows down from Peter. It has committed many sins over the centuries. And it has also been a channel for great faith and Christian charity. And it is united in one faith, one Church. |
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---Ed on 5/16/07 |
You went to a very naughty school. My mother also went to Catholic School and was taught Latin so that she could understand the Mass. Further, missals have often been provided in the vernacular so that those who did not know Latin could still understand. The Catholic Church has always encouraged the reading of the Bible, and provided the readings in the daily Mass to provide access even to the illiterate and those who could not afford a Bible. |
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---lorra8574 on 5/15/07 |
P2 But this freedom did lead to some problems at the rise of the Reformation due to variant personal interpretations. I suppose that some schools sought to control their own ideas through their students. The desire to control thoughts and ideas is a human one, not a Catholic one. But that does not stop Catholics in positions of authority from exercising it in foolish ways.
For a time it was said that the fastest way to loose your Catholic faith was to attend a Catholic school. |
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---lorra8574 on 5/15/07 |
Christina, I remember well when the Mass was said in latin. I too went to Catholic school. In 1982 I was truly Born again and since then I have found out not only why the Mass was said in Latin, but discovered that many things that the Catholic doctrine teaches is not in God's Word. The Catholic Church has always wanted control and is Master at explointing their own people. I could explain all the lies, but most Catholics are blinded by the evil one. Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father! |
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---John_C on 5/15/07 |
Peter, I believe you, and I can relate to exactly what you are saying. I was Catholic and God opened my eyes before it was too late. |
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---J_R on 5/15/07 |
Secrecy and control? Most people had Missals which had the corresponding English (or French or whatever) translation of the Mass right next to the words. Latin was universal. The Mass was eventually put in the "common" language for people to participate more meaningfully in their different languages.
Lay persons look to the Apostolic Tradition of the Church for correct interpretation of the Bible. Scripture reading is encouraged by the Catholic Church. |
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---Philomena on 5/15/07 |
Peter :-Analyse your blog carefully you were a catholic for 37 years,a model catholic you say so - what turned you? the same hype satan used on Eve your eyes will be opened.now you have cast yourself adrift, no communion, no confession, no saving grace or sanctifying grace, no pillar or flock but at least you exercised your free will Of Choice.one saving grace ie "come to me all who are laboured & burdened & I shall refresh you Peace be with you Bro." |
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---MC on 5/29/06 |
A Catholic wrote: " I guarantee you that many of those who criticise strongly the RCC have no clue what they are talking about."
Rx: Indeed! I daresay, many may be guilty of the very errors they accuse Catholics of. |
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---Tina5349 on 5/28/06 |
Christina<:What secrecy & control do you refer too in your question.I think,you may have been misinformed.Many have asked you but you fail to respond.Did Jesus introduce the Gospels & His teachings to be used as a Controversy Or a guidance --as we can attest from these blogs it raises many doubts& gives rise to the lack of Bro & sisterly love which Jesus advocates. I think this may answer your question of the discouraging of Bible interpretation. |
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---Impartial_Bystander on 5/28/06 |
Christina<:What secrecy & control do you refer too in your question.I think,you may have been misinformed.Many have asked you but you fail to respond.Did Jesus introduce the Gospels & His teachings to be used as a Controversy Or a guidance --as we can attest from these blogs it raises many doubts& gives rise to the lack of Bro & sisterly love which Jesus advocates. I think this may answer your question of the discouraging of Bible interpretation. |
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---Impartial_Bystander on 5/28/06 |
I was a catholic for 37 years, went to catholic school and was a model catholic. Then God revealed His truth to me because I asked Him with a willing heart to show me His truth. Now my eyes are opened and I know that I was decieved by the catholic religion. There is so much idolitry in the catholic church and useless repetitious prayers that are said. I now have a REAL relationship with God. God is very great and Jesus is Lord to the glory of God the father! Praise the Lord! |
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---Peter on 5/25/06 |
Chris--ruben- (Jesus said " He who listens to you listen to me.")Men) Where did Jesus say this?(Luke 10:16 - whoever hears you, hears me. Whoever rejects you, rejects me. Jesus is very clear that the bishops of the Church speak with Christ's infallible authority. ) If you are truly saved then the Holy Spirit will help( Again everybody claims to be guided by the Holy Spirit) you decipher that which is true. |
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---ruben on 5/19/06 |
I've known a lot of Catholics and most of them dont live very Godly... but I guess I can say that about some of the people I've met from any church. I just hope that some of us can focus more on Christ and less on traditions of men... no matter what denomination. There are some in my church that you see on Sunday morning who sprint out the door after service in a hurry to get back to their normal lives only to be seen again the next Sunday. Ritualistic with no heart. I just pray they find Christ. |
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---chris on 5/18/06 |
Chris, for a while I started to attend Evangelical church. In fact I attended two separate ones. I went back to the RCC Charismatic movement because I did not like and could not digest the hatred that those two churches were delivering.
Many who leave the RCC are strictly rebellious. In a way, I was too, but after doing serious homework, I found the RCC is much more serious than most other denominations. |
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---A_Catholic on 5/18/06 |
A_Catholic- Arent the majority of the anti-Catholic websites written by ex-Catholics? I apologize to you, I dont mean to attack your church... I do believe that there are many Catholics that are saved, that know the essential doctrines and believe on the Lord Christ with the fullness of their hearts. The only reason I debate it is that I think there are many traditions in the RCC that cause some to miss the point, and because of that, salvation. |
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---chris on 5/18/06 |
-ruben- (Jesus said " He who listens to you listen to me.")Men) Where did Jesus say this?
(which things , they are a whole lot of different belifs.) all things.
(Again all believes in different doctrines, all claiming guide by the holy Spirit and using the bible only) If you are truly saved then the Holy Spirit will help you decipher that which is true. Read 2 Corinthians 11:14,15 and you will see that Satan and his ministers can appear as righteous. |
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---chris on 5/18/06 |
pcc, I guarantee you that many of those who criticise strongly the RCC have no clue what they are talking about.
They just turn on their TV or look at anti Catholic website and quote ad literam what they hear or read. |
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---A_Catholic on 5/18/06 |
Chris-the Holy Spirit, not a group of men, will interpret Scripture:( Jesus said " He who listens to you listen to me.")(Men)
"...the Holy Ghost... shall teach you all things..." John 14:26 ( which things , they are a whole lot of different belifs.)
"...the Spirit of truth... will guide you into all truth..." John 16:13 ( Again all believes in different doctrines, all claiming guide by the holy Spirit and using the bible only) |
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---ruben on 5/18/06 |
There are no 'secrets' in the Mass. If you would like to know more about the Mass to understand it I will be happy to give you references. Have you been to one and have you asked questions of those who would know the answers? It sounds as though you haven't asked the right questions of the most knowledgable Catholics. |
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---pcc on 5/18/06 |
the Holy Spirit, not a group of men, will interpret Scripture:
"...the Holy Ghost... shall teach you all things..." John 14:26
"...the Spirit of truth... will guide you into all truth..." John 16:13
"Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth..." 1 Corinthians 2:13
"...the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God." 1 Corinthians 2:12 |
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---chris on 5/18/06 |
So you are lead by the interpretation of others. I am not trying to say that we need to be creating wild interpretations to conform doctrines that suit us. We are to study the scriptures... read it ourselves... not to trust everyone that tells us what to do. Others may be interpreting it wrong, test them against the scripture. Did God tell you that the KJV was mistranslated or was it man? |
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---chris on 5/18/06 |
Actually, Chris, the verb in Greek is second person plural indictative, "YOU search the scriptures....", not second person plural imperative, as the KJV misrenders it.
And in this passage, Jesus makes it clear that devotion to the scriptures can get in the way of a relationship with Himself.
In other words, Jesus warned the Bible can become an idol. |
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---Jack on 5/17/06 |
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BTW--All I asked was where in the Bible it gives one free reign to interpret it on one's own. That's all. You mean it's hypocritical to ask Sola Scriptura people to back up their points with scripture? I never claimed to be bound by that dictum. |
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---Jack on 5/17/06 |
Most ancient commentators agree weith me. I did NOT come to this conclusion on my own, but looked to see what the oldest Christian writers available to me said. |
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---Jack on 5/17/06 |
Ps. Jack, here is a quote from you dated 5/8 from the Anti-Christ Gives Mark Or Beheads blog: "ON the basis of my exhaustive study of the Scriptures, I am convinced that..."
A little hypocritical of you to debate against individual interpretation of scriptures isnt it? Uhhh... Yep. |
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---chris on 5/17/06 |
mike-( the burdon of proof lies with you, show me where the Word of God says that only someone who is properly trained in the interpretation scripture can teach it. ) I hope you do not mind I jump right in . Try Passage 1 Timothy 3:15:
"if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth." Now show where it says anyone can interpretive the scriptures to their liking. |
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---ruben on 5/17/06 |
Jack, I posted scriptures John 5:39 "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." Now why would He tell us to search the scriptures, if He knew we couldn't interpret them?
Ps, the argument that the word Bible is not in the Bible is a pretty weak argument. If that makes the Bible phoney to you then I will pray for you. |
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---chris on 5/17/06 |
In fact Jack, the burdon of proof lies with you, show me where the Word of God says that only someone who is properly trained in the interpretation scripture can teach it. I will agree with you, the word Bible does not appear in the Vulgate, as it is in fact a Greek word, Biblios, meaning a bound set of parchment. As such, it appears frequently. |
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---mike8384 on 5/17/06 |
Christina, please tell us what you think was supposed to be so secret.
Be as specific as you can (in the 85 word limit). |
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---Jack on 5/17/06 |
Part II: Chris referred to John 5:39: "You search the scriptures, because you think you have eternal life through them; even they testify on my behalf. But you do not want to come to me to have life."
This is right before Jesus talks about being the living bread (John 6:51) and eating His Flesh and drinking His Blood (John 6:54) to have life. It seems to me that this supports the understanding that Scripture alone is insufficient, but we need Jesus in the Eucharist for life! |
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---Philomena on 5/17/06 |
Part I. Chris said: "Philomena, are you sure Catholics are supposed to interpret God's Word for themselves?"
Actually, I was referring to the Magisterium in my comment. That's what I meant by "Apostolic." The Church follows the Bible and the teachings of the Apostles, thus the teaching authority of the Magisterium of the Church.
I'll address your comment about John 5:39 in Part II. |
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---Philomena on 5/17/06 |
Actually, Chris, St. Peter wrote, "NO prophecy of scripture is of any private interpretation."
Please give book, chapter, and verse where it says that people can read the Bible and interpret it for themselves.
In fact, please give book, chapter, and verse where we find the word "Bible." |
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---Jack on 5/17/06 |
Actually, Catholic masses were NEVER "all in Latin". The Eastern Churches in communion with Rome used many different languages before Vatican 2, including English.
The LATIN rite, obviously, was in Latin, but not the Maronite, Byzantine, Coptic, Ethiopic, Armenian, Syrian, Syro-Malabar, Syro-Malankar, and Chaldean. |
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---Jack on 5/17/06 |
I second what Philomena said.
The Mass contains a lot of Biblical readings. Latin used to be the RCC official language. I personally loved it and till today, many of the regular prayers, I still say in Latin and that includes the "Our Father" or "Pater Noster" |
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---A_Catholic on 5/17/06 |
Philomena, are you sure Catholics are supposed to interpret God's Word for themselves? Here is what the Catechism says about it: "The task of interpreting the Word of God authentically has been entrusted solely to the magisterium of the Church, that is, to the Pope and to the bishops in communion with him." Pg. 30, #100
But what do the scriptures say?:
Acts 17:11; Mark 12:24; 2 Timothy 2:15; John 5:39; John 2:26-27 |
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---chris on 5/17/06 |
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