Mike there is enough "Police State" to arrest, convict and punish a pro-lifer for carrying a sign near an abortion clinic saying abortion is murder.
Everyone has a choice but the baby!
Why be outraged at adult soldiers getting killed in war but make excuses to murder babies? |
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---Elder on 12/31/07 |
I believe the question must refer to "partial birth abortion" not "partial term abortion", which would apply to any abortion. Partial birth abortion is killing a viable infant after the head emerges from the birth canal (the skull is crushed and the brain vacuumed out). I believe this may now have been outlawed as it should be. It was allowed "when the mothers life was in danger".But doctors are hard put to name any case when this barbaric procedure would be necessary. |
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---Donna2277 on 6/8/06 |
There is more then one way to kill a child/baby. There is no easy awnser except God and marrage, I think. I have seen children hungry because a mother(s) was so poor and alone and keep having babies....alone without a husband. This whole thing can lead also to abuse....and on goes the story. |
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---Alexandra on 6/7/06 |
Loree-Most of the persecution of Christians in history was at the hands of fellow Christians. The 'correct' christian killing the apostate, who killed the other type of apostate, etc., etc., etc. These were called 'holy wars.'(oxymoron) |
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---MikeM on 6/7/06 |
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#2 -I wish that more babies were adopted now instead of being aborted. But we have fertility drugs, in vivo and in vitro fertilization so more couples can have their own.
Don't think that all abortions then were "back alley" abortions. I worked in a hospital at the time, where legal abortions were done. They would be legal if failure to do so would endanger a woman's life. You would be amazed at the things that could *endanger* a womans life in those days. And there was always Mexico.. |
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---Donna2277 on 6/7/06 |
#1- I remember when abortion WAS illegal. No one was ever prosecuted for HAVING an abortion.. it was the doctor, not the woman who could be charged...but few actually were. I knew a number of young women that became pregnant "out of wedlock". Some quickly married. Some, because of the law, bore their babies and gave them up for adoption. About the only ones I saw that became single mothers were those who were on welfare (which is something most young single women didn't want!) |
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---Donna2277 on 6/7/06 |
I don't expect to change the law, I just want to share my thoughts on why abortions are bad. It is bad for a woman's emotions. It is a memory that does not go away. It is an easy way out and a selfish solution. Abortions go against our motherly instincs to nurture and protect our young. I don't judge or persecute women, who have had abortions. I have had one also. Women are being exploided for money and politics. It is morally wrong to encourage such an act, or act like it is ok with God. |
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---anonymous on 6/7/06 |
P.II- The question is, when you are faced with your judgment before the Great White Throne, what will you answer for? Will you answer for your faith and hope in your nation or will you receive reward for advancement of His Truth in spite of obstacle and seeming impossibility? Will you answer for apostasy or be rewarded for your faith? |
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---Loree on 6/6/06 |
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Mike, anyone who is familiar with and believes in biblical prophesy knows that no matter what service Christians perform in the name of Jesus, this nation and all nations will suffer increasingly severe persecution and martyrdom for their Christianity. Neither you, nor I, can change that. |
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---Loree on 6/6/06 |
Should abortions or partial term abortions be legal?
Only if the child to be born will turn out to be another Adolf Hitler. |
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---lee on 6/6/06 |
Loree, In Rome Christians were persecuted until Constantine. After that the tables were turned. Be they RCC or protestant untill 1900 more people were persecuted by the RCC and protestant sects than for any other cause. Holy wars, pograms, dark ages, book burnings, people burnings, 'heretics' persecuted, etc. etc, etc. This is a blunt historical fact. The maxim that sums this up is "Lord protest me from evil, but protest me mostly of all from your followers." |
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---MikeM on 6/6/06 |
The point of debate is to establish a proposition. In an open dialectic one side or another will prevail. What am I, or anyone now to assess? |
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---MikeM on 6/5/06 |
Madison, I am aware of the persecution of Christians throughout history. I am also aware that there will continue to be persecution increasing in severity as time progresses. You have God, what do you fear? Further, I never advocated NOT allowing other faiths or God-given free will. I advocate choosing God and Gods power to rise to the top through believers. Join Gods battle, its exhilarating AND were going to win! : D |
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---Loree on 6/5/06 |
Mike, Through Christians, those in Christ, God enacts His authority in civil matters. He did so in apostolic times. Why is it impossible now? Why do you believe we must go backwards? Why do you believe I advocate regression? Why not take what weve learned and build our leadership on it AS CHRISTIANS? |
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---Loree on 6/5/06 |
No problem, Christina. I'm glad we're in agreement. Be blessed. |
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---Loree on 6/5/06 |
Loree, I apologize for the confusion, I misunderstood one of your posts. I thought you were saying that if abortions were illegal they would not decrease and to think there might be a decrease is illogical. i am actually in agreement with you. Thanks for pointing out my error. |
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---christina on 6/4/06 |
MikeM, I like that old saying, except that I have been speaking out about all those things but no one cares unless it effects them directly.
The other point wasnt really mute thanks to repentance. I also wonder if you consider the Israellites to have been A Taliban type regime. They followed Gods direction and had great success and protection. Then, failure when they pushed him out. |
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---tofurabby on 6/4/06 |
Do you believe in the commandment that says: Thou shalt not kill? If your answer is no, then why dont you go kill your mother? No? what is it that stops you from doing so? Amen, the laws of God still stands..He said "If you love me, obey my commandments...A fetus is still a living being so NO to any killing... |
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---jana on 6/4/06 |
3. The man, his name is Edward Atkinson, used his time in jail to good effect. He persuaded the other prisoners to take down the pornographic pictures that adorned their cell walls. |
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---M.P. on 6/4/06 |
2. They say they will only treat him for something life threatening. A wheelchair bound grandma in Birmingham is being similarly treated (still awaiting sentencing) for sending pro-life literature to chemists who supply the morning after pill. Ann Widdecombe M.P. said "Pro-lifers are being picked on because we offend the existing position, and in this oppressive age, that is becoming a crime in itself. |
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---M.P. on 6/4/06 |
In U.K. it used to be a crime to have or perform abortions, now it seems that it is a crime to show publicly that you are against abortion. I have just received a report in the post from a pro-life group telling of a 74 year old man in U.K. arrested, then imprisoned for posting pictures and a video showing abortions, to a Norfolk hospital that carries out abortions. He has now been doubly punished by being taken off that hospital's waiting list for a hip replacement |
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---M.P. on 6/4/06 |
Loree; Through who does God enact his authority in civil matters? Fair is a wordly issue- so you are against pluralism, freedom of religion? I dont want to go backward to the time Catholic killed protestant, protestant killed protestant, and everyone killed Jews. "you are either for or against God" that either/or mentality is what leads to Taliban, Koresh or other fanatical type thinking, and actions. That medievil thinking scares me. |
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---MikeM on 6/3/06 |
Loree: Do you remember what it was like for believers behind the Iron Curtain, before Communism fell? Do you have any idea what the believers in China must go through to meet, much less worship? If our Consitution fails to give us our freedom of religion, then we could end up like those believers in hiding. I prefer to worship in the open. If that means allowing other beliefs in my country, well then so be it. |
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---Madison1101 on 6/3/06 |
Regarding C&S laws, I believe there is a downside to the "I wouldn't want a govt telling me who,how or when to worship". God has been left out of the equation in this scenario. Trust is placed in man's laws to protect and not intrude on their beliefs. Do we no longer believe that God has the power and authority to overcome other forms of religion?...or are we attempting to be fair to those who believe differently? Fair is a wordly issue, you are either for or against God. |
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---Loree on 6/3/06 |
old saying; first they came for the homosexuals, I said nothing as I was not homosexual, then they came for the socialist, I said nothings as I was not a socialist,then they came for the unionist, I said nothing as I was not a Unionist, then they came for the Catholics, I said nothing as I was not a Catholic, then they came for the Jews, I said nothing as I was not a Jew, Then they came for me, I tried to say something, but there was nobody left to say anything to. |
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---MikeM on 6/3/06 |
tofurabby, Well if it is not possible as you say then your point is mute. |
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---MikeM on 6/3/06 |
MikeM, How do you know how much I know about history? you are under an assumption that the US Constitution will not fail at some point. History is the past, Israel went a long time under Gods protection, but it is the past. The US Constitution is present... so tell me how successful it is in the year 3006. Now, if we had a nation that was truly under God, there would be complete peace. (if everyone could follow the bible correctly which I know is not possible). |
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---tofurabby on 6/3/06 |
tofurabby; No I would fight to the death any theocracy. A Taliban type regime would be the result of a Bible based theocracy, which have always been a curse, not a blessing. The Bible should animate the individual and families, but never be the basis of goverment as it would be capricious in the hands of demogogic clerical leaders. We never learn from history, thus it repeats itself. Its all basic History 101. |
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---MikeM on 6/3/06 |
Christina, I'm not sure how you understood me to say all abortions would cease if the act were made illegal.??? I merely pointed out that MikeM's supposition that there would be "as many" was unrealistic. And to answer his question directly, yes, they should be prosecuted. The number would decrease even more so if the consequences were an effective deterrant. |
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---Loree on 6/3/06 |
In no manner am I saying one man, race or nationality is better than another, but I am saying that we have crossed a line with our "liberties". Galatians 5:13 tells us:
"For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another." Our current laws do give occasion to the flesh too often. |
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---Loree on 6/3/06 |
The bottom line is that laws like sep of church and state, civil rights and liberties, etc. all work to exhalt men. We spend our time making sure we live better, richer, fairer lives. In doing so, we leave behind humility and an attitude of servitude. We serve men and ourselves, not God. If you look through history, you'll notice how our diversity and equality laws have turned our country on a downward spiral at an increasingly amazing speed. |
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---Loree on 6/3/06 |
Elder; Yes the 'Church' should butt out of the goverment. Thomas Jefferson wrote that religion in goverment corrupts both. The history of religion in goverment is a history we should not repeat. Republic, 'Democracy' are indeed humanistic, from Athens Greece. Let the clergy stay in church, and keep the goverment out of and away from the church. |
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---MikeM on 6/2/06 |
Elder, tofurabby, Yes Democracy is 100% pagan and secular. You know little of history. Bible based goverments were ALWAYS dictaterships, thirty years war, pograms, clerical regimes, Oliver Cromwell, witch burnings etc. reformation europe, no thanks, it was tried again and again, and always failed. I live by the US Constitution, written by Deist and freemasons. |
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---MikeM on 6/2/06 |
Mike, separation of church and state is a humanistic value. It is and was concocted by men. You don't see in the Bible that it teaches the church should bow out of Government affairs that affect everyone. |
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---Elder on 6/2/06 |
-2 Like the story of Joshua taking Jericho... He had success thanks to God until Achan disobeyed Gods command, then they fell to Ai. But once Joshua found out that Achan took some gold for himself, they stoned Achan and burned him... no trial, no miranda rights. Then, once that was cleared up they were back to obeying God and back to great successes. |
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---tofurabby on 6/2/06 |
MikeM, I am always direct... even when it is unpopular. To answer your first question... If abortion could be made illegal, then I am willing to endure any consequences, but I dont think it will be as extreme as you think. Second question... call it a totalitarian state or whatever you want, I would prefer a govt that follows the Bible 100%. What a blessed nation we would truly be. In the OT when Israel followed God 100% they were greatly blessed and cursed when even 1 person strayed. |
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---tofurabby on 6/2/06 |
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Lupe- You want civil goverment to bow to Christian values, which ones, as dictated by whose clergy? Your logic is then, God says abortion is immoral,- civil goverment must bow to bibical mandate,- it it means a totalitarian state,- so be it. Do I have what you are saying wrong" If so explain. How about seperation of church and state? It seems everyone is vague on this point. |
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---MikeM on 6/2/06 |
It's not a matter of what we want Mike, it is what God ask of us. He doesn't tell us all the details why He does what He does, but He tells us what we are suppose to do. Now of course as a Christian you do have a choice. Obey or disobey. You want to make sense of everything God tells us but He has the reasons why and we are called to follow. Follow Christ, or continue to follow the world. No excuse, not one. |
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---Lupe2618 on 6/2/06 |
I believe abortion is vile, immoral and clearly against Gods plan. I will also say that its clear that making it illegal again will not work, unless you want a consumate police state. Its an irrational proposel, one that could never be enforced with out GREAT police powers beyond what America has ever seen before. Do you want that? |
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---MikeM on 6/2/06 |
Loree, I disagree with your statement "denying that abortions would decrease at all in number after it was made illegal is irresponsible and illogical." On the contrary, Many would abide by the law, perhaps refrain from Getting into a situation where they might become pregnant. Do you honestly believe that not one person would choose not to have an abortion because it is illegal? That to me is illogical and presumptuous. |
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---christina on 6/2/06 |
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I dont think they could be tried for it if they had the abortions while it was legal to do so. That is what you're missing. If it became illegal, you begin charging them at that point (new offenses). -Here is a thought for you, 12+ million illegal immigrants in the US and legislators are kicking around the idea of mass deportation... they seem to think it is possible. Talk about needing a police state, logistics, taxes ...and this is real! |
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---tofurabby on 6/1/06 |
MikeM, you are blowing things way out of proportion. First, the law has never been retrospective. Second, denying that abortions would decrease at all in number after it was made illegal is irresponsible and illogical. |
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---Loree on 6/1/06 |
A straight answer! OK Cris, thank you for that. Ok, then those who perform abortion, have them tried for pre-meditated murder. Now, since millions of women have had them, are their enough courts to try them, enough jails to hold them, enough police to arrest them? We in America would HAVE to become a police state to enforce that law. Every city, town, community would have to build a gallows, gas chamber, etc. The taxes, the logistics are mind-boggling! |
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---MikeM on 6/1/06 |
Christina: you wanted information of the Presbyterian (PCUSA) position on abortion if you do a Google search using the search string below including all quote marks:
"presbyterian 101" + "social issues" + abortion
That should provide you to the correct web page in the first entry of the search results. |
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---notlaw99 on 6/1/06 |
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No. Abortions are sin and barbaric. It is killing an innocent helpless human life. Matthew 19:18, Luke 18:20, Romans 1:28,29 \ 13:9, James 2:11
When someone repents and believes in Jesus as his or her Saviour, all past sins as forgiven. Romans 10:9 \ 3:25
If and when we slip and sin, we can confess to God and he will forgive. I know how a person's past can affect a person's mental health. 1John 1:9 |
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---Ulrika on 6/1/06 |
Mike different countries have different laws from each other and they have different punishments for different crimes. If a country says abortion is illegal its government will have said what the punishment will be for those who break that particular law - and that is what should happen to them. We are told to respect the law of the land in which we live unless it contradicts God's laws. |
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---emg on 6/1/06 |
MikeM, I already gave you a straight answer. If abortion becomes illegal because everyone finally realizes that the unborn are still humans, then those that still have abortions should be tried for murder. period.
-Chris |
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---tofurabby on 6/1/06 |
one last time to try to get a straight answer, if abortion is illegal, what should happen to those who have them, illegally? |
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---MikeM on 6/1/06 |
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Madison it is not our Governments responsibility to take care of children and families. Welfare money would be better spent providing jobs.
There are some exceptions but not many.
Cond #2 |
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---Elder on 6/1/06 |
Cond #2
When we kill children with money in mind we worship the dollar. The love of money is the root of all evil.
Our society refuses responsibility for its actions. Of the 6 people that robbed us there has been 3 days of jail time given between the six and they have not been required to pay any restitution because they "cannot afford it" per the Judge.
To correct a problem of money we kill little babies? These thing ought not to be. |
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---Elder on 6/1/06 |
NO,NO,NO
abortion is killing. The issue to be addressed is why do it(sex) if you are not ready for the results. For christian teens no to sex before mariage, we should address the issue of falling pregnant. Personally i would say on Rape cases its different. Out of that NO. |
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---ZIMBABWEAN on 6/1/06 |
Christians believe God is the Creator of all things, including man. Who are we to destroy that creation? Who are we to tell God, "NO, you've made a mistake, I'm too young, I'm too poor, I'm too busy making myself important"? Who are we to say, "No, I must destroy You're creation because there is no hope for a life I deem worth living." God knows many will live in poverty, but He goes on creating-Hmmmm. Who are we to think we know better than God? |
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---Loree on 6/1/06 |
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I have counseled many women who have had abortions I have a few statics over 1/2 of teen abortions, the girls try or succeed in committing suicide I believe the FOCUS ON THE FAMILY WEB SITE has the stats. NO ABORTION SHOULD NOT BE LEGAL. |
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---willow on 6/1/06 |
Actually, I think it should NOT be legal. And as for back alley abortions being dangerous for the mother, they're not exactly cozy for the baby! The parent takes the babies and their own life into a deadly situation. If the woman dies, then it is a murder/suicide in my opinion. |
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---Dixie on 6/1/06 |
No, i could not get s straight answer! |
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---MikeM on 5/31/06 |
Thanks Christina, I really think that this organization should change its name. Abortion is not really planning parenthood at all, it is planning non-parenthood by killing the children so that the adults do not become parents. To think that people refer to 'planning to keep only those children they want and disposing of the others' as planned parenthood fills me with horror. |
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---M.P. on 5/30/06 |
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MP, planned parenthood has much to do with abortion. This organization is a major proponant of abortion and even performs them on young girls without parental knowledge or consent |
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---christina on 5/30/06 |
notlaw99, I disagree. Abortion is a serious moral/christian issue, since it involves the taking of a life. I am a right to life proponant and do NOT perpetuate abuse and world hunger, but rather am active in combatting these. The assumptions made are lies of the enemy based on fear, and faulty reasoning. God, who does not lie, is able and has the resources to combat these problems. It is sin that is responsible for hunger and abuse. The old cliche, 2 wrong don't make a right is appropriate here. . |
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---christina on 5/30/06 |
notlaw99, I'm curious, you say you are an elder in your church, presbyterian. Are your beliefs on abortion the same as your church? |
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---christina on 5/30/06 |
No abortion should be legal, why because legal murder is still murder. Many women believe that it is thier body and they should have the right to do as they please and thats is thier perogative God is the final Judge. Many Banks are legal theives are they right? There are also women that are pressured into making these decisions, by parents, husbands, ect I believe they are not responsible in such cases. |
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---Carla5754 on 5/29/06 |
cont: I guess my point is, I am against abortion being legal, but believe that our society is not prepared to deal with the aftermath of single mothers with unwanted babies. If Christians really want to help the problem, there are ministries that help women in crisis pregnancies keep their babies. One in Philadelphia is called Alpha Pregnancy Services. |
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---Madison1101 on 5/29/06 |
Elder: I believe that God can take care of the kid in the ghetto, BUT is our society, the church and/or government ready with the resources financial and otherwise to support emotionally, financially, or spiritually, all of the mothers and children that will result from illegalizing abortion? That has always been my main concern. I do not believe that the American Christian Church, or our government is prepared to deal with that consequence of making abortion illegal. That is my whole concern. |
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---Madison1101 on 5/29/06 |
Donna, in theory I have no problem with the male who sired the baby being sterilized. However it would take much time and expense just to be able to determine who the father really is. Sometimes the woman doesn't even know for sure or would lie. Men sometimes encourage an abortion but have no rights if they want to keep their child against the mother's wishes. Better to keep the onus on the woman, after all she could have just said "no". |
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---ralph7477 on 5/29/06 |
Madison1101 I hope you remember that I respect you and my feelings about you serving the Lord have not changed. You have been through a lot and came out shining.
I asked you the question because I wanted to ask you can God care for the Ghetto kids also? I think He can.
So again poverty is no excuse for an abortion. You proved that yourself. |
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---Elder on 5/28/06 |
Ralph. Would you suggest the father of the aborted child be sterilized? He is very often the one who insists on an abortion...because he has a wife elsewhere, or he doesn't want to be a father, at least he doesn't want to be responsible financially, he wants to have nothing to do with the woman...the reasons go on and on.
What do you mean by "partial term" abortions? Do you mean mid-term abortion? or partial birth abortion? |
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---Donna2277 on 5/28/06 |
Elder: I chose not to abort my two crisis pregnancies because I wanted the children. The first was when I was 18, and not married. The second crisis was my 3rd pregnancy, when my husband and I were in college. It was my husband that did not want the babies. I was prepared to raise them alone if I had to. I believed God would provide for us. My husband did not. God provided indeed. |
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---Madison1101 on 5/28/06 |
Helen; In America today, abortion is legal
My question remains unanswered, what should happen to those who have abortions? . |
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---MikeM on 5/28/06 |
Notlaw99 a). 'No women who does not want a child has any business bring one to full term.' If she does not want a child she has no business getting pregnant then. b). You say you support Planned Parenthood. Since when was abortion planned parenthood. From the moment of conception that baby has parents. Too late for the planning stage. Abortion is just getting rid of the inconvenience. Pregnancy is the consequence of action and all babies are a gift from God not a bag of trash. |
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---M.P. on 5/28/06 |
Would someone please tell me what 're-carmelizing abortion' means. As for Ralph's suggestion that women having an abortion should then be sterilized I find myself thinking this is a very good suggestion BUT can you imagine the outcry. 'You can't do that, it is taking away the woman's human rights to have a child'. That is, of course, after SHE has taken away the human rights of that tiny, defenceless human called a baby. |
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---M.P. on 5/28/06 |
No abortion should not be made legal. Why? Because abortion is murder. |
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---Helen_5378 on 5/28/06 |
What man says is legal, God says is illegal. Since the time of Christ and the New Testament, killing is never legal by God. Instead, Jesus commands us in his New Law to forgive the offender, turn the other cheek when struck, and love your enemies. Please read Matthew 5:38-48. No, abortion is not legal to God, and he has not given anyone permission to sin or to kill. |
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---Eloy on 5/28/06 |
As Christians, we should not agree to the ungodly views of the world. We are in the world but we are not of the world. God has set the rules for us and His order of things is what we should be following. This "new Tolerance" in the church is wrong. Everyone's faith is the equal, everyone's opinions are equal, what makes us happy is ok. That is the new tolerance. We are called to follow Christ, not the world. Abortion is wrong. |
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---karen on 5/28/06 |
Granted some women do not realise the implications of Abortion and by the use of certain family planning would not understand their implications also, women are not always making decisions on their own, but for the selected who inadvertabliy Abort for selfish connotation, knowing what they are doing regardless God alone will Judge. |
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---Carla5754 on 5/28/06 |
If abortion laws can not be overturned, why not legislate that any woman who does have an abortion would also be required to be sterilized at the same time. It would be a good first step because it provides consequences for actions and it also guarantees that she will not be back for future abortions. |
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---ralph7477 on 5/28/06 |
Madison killing babies is not the answer to ghettoes and where was the problem before Roe v/s Wade?
I ask again, why not murder the parents and let the innocent baby live? Your answer is?
Under what basis did you not get an abortion and why does it not apply to others? |
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---Elder on 5/28/06 |
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