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What Is Predestination

What is predestination? Why do some people suppose that God has already predestined who will and who wouldn't go to hell? Are they misquoting God when He spoke about predestining or ordering the life of the righteous for His good purpose?

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Did He plan all things, condemning people to commit acts they had no choice but to carry out? Personally, I think that if one balances the revealed character of God against these questions, the only answer would be that history's driving forces were contained within the decisions individuals made and that God wove His purposes through and around them. Foreknowledge empowered by freewill wrapped itself around us, using our future choices to bring about the amazing and often hidden purposes of God. Free will and eventual consequences, whether immediate or in eternity, are virtually stamped on every page in the Bible. Perfection cannot violate itself, neither can the Almighty.
---Catherine_J._Craig on 10/2/09


Mark

'Ed, don't bang your head against the wall' - i said that with humour not solemnity.
---Ed on 8/8/07


To understand predestination, you have to understand God's Sovereignty. That is, you're reborn because God rebore you. You didn't rebore or re-create yourself, even your faith is a gift from God and you didn't earn your faith--He just gave it to you (Eph 2:8-9). Predestination concerns "when" God decided to save you by giving you faith. The Bible says he did it before creation.
---Bryan_Shaw on 8/8/07


Predestination has to do with what is in Gods mind for his will for all man. But mans will must be submitted to God's will before that can come to pass, It is the same as Gods law in the fact that it exists. Jesus was predestined to die for all sins but submitted to his Father, we are predestined to be the
the Sons and Daughters of God if we submit to the Gospel by faith. But mans destiny is his choice.
---exzucuh on 8/8/07


Ed, don't bang your head against the wall. That would be completely so far a person would go because of having to answer. I was ready to move on and you answered me again. I explained to you as best as possible and it seems you didn't like my answer or thought much about it. It is ok. You do not have to understand it. Born again, isn't something everyone is, or for that matter believes. Don't worry so much about answering, move on, peace to you too. You take care too, and God richly bless you.
---mark on 8/7/07




Mark

'He has to be your Lord Ed' - with respect, what do you take me for: a heathen? I can't carry on like this if you think i am. It's just useless (i am banging my head against the wall). Take care Mark and God bless you.
---Ed on 8/7/07


Ed, again I say, if you have a love for Christ you are saved. If you are saved, you will have all the aspects. You cannot love Christ if you are lost. YOu cannot have a love for others without Christ because if you do, it is sin. All glory goes to God for the Christian. You say faith is one aspect and others are also, but none of the others will come unless you have faith in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. He has to be your Lord Ed. All other things come because of that faith in Christ.
---mark on 8/7/07


Mark
Me talking about love is not me talking about what a loving guy i am but to emphasize JESUS' TWO MAIN COMMANDMENTS: love God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) and neighbour. St Paul says that faith without love is useless (Cor 13). Beleiving Jesus died for us is part of faith. And faith is one of many aspects of love (Paul, Cor 13). Therefore we must love God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) and not just have faith, and not just believe that Jesus died for our sins (although central to our faith).
---Ed on 8/4/07


Ed, I was not talking about you as an individual, but about your faith. Since you had an opinion on Calvinist, and made it a point to explain to us about love, and how you were taught, all I did was give you my opinion on what 1 Corinthians 13 was about. And it was about "Love" and that was "Christ" I was talking about. You were explaining love but not Christ. All I did was bring it to your attention "the love of Christ" since you never mentioned that. Yes Ed, we can move on.
---mark on 8/3/07


Mark

'talked so much about love, but never a love for Christ' - i haven't been talking about love. I have been quoting (lots of times) the same quote about love - in which JESUS SAYS that the two most important commandments are to Love God (Father, Jesus and The Holy Spirit and neighbour). And love neighbour.
---Ed on 8/1/07




2 Mark

'Ed, you gave answers how much love you have' - no, Mark. That would be pretty vain of me. If that is the impression i have made then i take that back. My intention was to emphasize that Love was Jesus' most important commandment. I am not here to talk about myself, only as far as my experience lends to the theologial arguments i am trying to make based on Jesus' teachings.
---Ed on 8/1/07


3. Mark

We can go both go on. What's the point. We both disagree with each other. God bless you.
---Ed on 8/1/07


Ed, you still don't get it, it doesn't matter whether you believe in Calvinism or in Arminianism, what matter's is Whether Christ is the "Rock" of your life. And since you are a Catholic, He is not your Rock, as some of you have answered. The fact is, you have to be born again to believe. The question you should ask yourself is, where do you put your faith in? The reason I even answered you in the beginning is because you talked so much about love, but never a love for Christ.
---mark on 8/1/07


#2. Ed, you gave answers how much love you have, to prove that, you gave passages about on two most important commandments, and I said, if you have love, but have not Christ, who is Love, it means nothing. I still say the same thing. You can be the nicest guy in all the world, but if you don't have Christ it means nothing at all. It's who we trust, who we believe in, who we put our faith in that is important for our souls. Our own works gain us nothing. That's why I am against all the workers of the law.
---mark on 8/1/07


#3. Ed. What I hold dear in my heart is that Christ is all in my life. My free will only got me in trouble when I was lost. It could never save me. Only the Spirit of God changing my heart could do that. It was all the work of God, from beginning to end. In your faith, it is your works and your great deeds and that is why I mentioned to you 1 Corinthian 13. You have to memorize it and believe it, to understand it. Otherwise you will always be trying to gain your way in to the kingdom by your great deeds.
---mark on 8/1/07


#4. Ed, what Calvinism did for me, is to me to hold to the strength of God in my life, and not my own strength. It helped me realize that all my works to gain glory mean nothing. That God is the Creator not only of my salvation, but my faith, and ultimately my sustainer. That without Him, I am nothing at all but filthy rags. It allowed me to put all my faith in Him and Him along. If that is not what you hold dearly then you are holding on to the wrong "Rock."
---mark on 8/1/07


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#5. Ed, your knowledge of Calvinism is false and only gives evidence of your poor answers. When you do study the subject, you too will be able to give all the glory to God. Otherwise you will always want to take some glory for your great deeds. Our great deeds are the result of our salvation. Of our faith in the Lord and not on any church or denomination. God is not going to look at your church but at your heart.
---mark on 8/1/07


3 Mark

4. It was Calvinism that was the biggest supporter of usary. Jesus says that if you want to be perfect: go sell all your possessions etc (and live in apostolic poverty). The Calvinists support of usary goes against this (since they believed they are 'saved' no matter what, they don't mind getting involved in usary without any sense of guilt).

Other Christians enter usary knowing that they compromise their faith. They hope and pray that God will forgive their weaknesses in doing so.
---Ed on 7/25/07


4 Mark

To Calvinists everything is black and white (in their favour). Outside Calvinism things are not so black and white, and believers take up their cross on a daily basis, part of which is to ask God for mercy.

Calvinists like to think they totally depend on God, but if they did then they would ask Him for forgivenes and mercy, carry out His commandment of Love, not judge others, and carry the cross on a daily basis. It's a false sense of humility.
---Ed on 7/25/07


5 Mark

Want to make it very clear I AM NOT JUDGING YOU (God forgive me if i did / was) but speaking out against a theology (which is very different). I don't really doubt (but i don't want to be absolutist on this either) that there are people in Calvinist Churchs who carry out God's core commandments, and don't judge others, and fight temptation, and pray for forgiveness and mercy.
---Ed on 7/25/07


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5 Mark

But since I indulge in calvinism and pelegianism myself (i know it is wrong and sinful to, and i have to fight it) so i know and understand the real dangers of holding, officially, to such beliefs as Calvinism.
---Ed on 7/25/07


6. Mark

So what do we focus on instead of Calvinism. We focus Mark 12:30,31:

'Jesus answered him, "The first of all the commandments is: 'Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.' This is the first commandment. And the second, like it, is this: 'You shall love your neigbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these."
---Ed on 7/25/07


1. Mark

(Some of) The dangers of Calvinism are:

1. It encourage self-righteousness (I am of the elect, he isn't). Jesus speaks at great against self-righteousness (and don't forget the role of the self-righteous Pharisees and High Priests in the Crucification of Our Lord).

2. Calvinism kills off the the concept of the believer in a battle against temptation - all the temptations of sin.
---Ed on 7/25/07


The Bible says that we must take up our cross daily. Jesus told St Peter how blessed he was, and then in the next breath rebuked him in no uncertain terms. And God rebuked Moses for defying Him through stuborness.

3. It takes away the concept of Loving God (and neighbour). When we Love God we must make an effort on our part. Self-sacrifice and effot. We must choose to do so.
---Ed on 7/25/07


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'And as i have said before this does not mean that everyone will be saved' - i meant to say: this does not mean that everyone will be NECESSARILY saved.
That people have to respond to God's gift of salvation by choosing God over the world, love over hatred, humility over pride - to fight temptation, and to take up the cross daily (as it says in the Bible), and so on.
---Ed on 7/25/07


Ed, I answered you because you said, I have given you my views of Calvinism and I had not given you mine concering what I feel, not what is taught. I already know what you feel and what you believe. That is not a secret. All those that God calls, will come forward and will believe. His Spirit brings faith with that grace, which without it, no one will believe.
---mark on 7/24/07


#2. Ed: The gospel is open to all, but not all will have faith to believe in. They will reject the gospel, why? Because they have no faith. Who gives faith? God gives faith, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." If God gave us faith to believe, what happens to those He doesn't give faith too? You know that already. Does a person already condemned deserve mercy? I don't think so.
---mark on 7/24/07


1. Mark

I have already given many examples from the Bible where it says salvation is intended for all (not for some as Calvinism holds). And as i have said before this does not mean that everyone will be saved. Salvation is 100% a gift from God. But we must accept it by making a choice between God and the world. Between good and evil. Between love and hatred.

St Paul says ABSOLUTELY CLEARLY that faith without love is useless (Corinthians 13).
---Ed on 7/24/07


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2 Mark

And Jesus, says, most importantly THAT THE TWO MOST COMMANDMENTS AROUND WHICH OUR FAITH IS BASED IS TO LOVE GOD AND NEIGHBOUR. What is love? Jesus gives us examples (The Good Samaratin, The Prodigal Son, and more, as well as, of course, the example of His own life and sacrifice).

All i can do is remind you of the quotes i have given to you from the Bible. But above all the quotes of St Paul, and Our Lord, Himself.

I pray that Jesus gives you peace and protects you.
---Ed on 7/24/07


#3. Ed: He also said,"Rest assured that the doctrines commonly called Calvinistic are the only doctrines that can shut the mouths of devils and fill the mouths of saints in the day of famine and in the time of extremity," you see Ed when we are faced with extrimes or when we are helpless in many cases, only the power of God can help us, only believing in Him with a true heart will it comfort us. For we believe all things are in His hands and not ours.
---mark on 7/24/07


Ed, here is my views on Calvinism, or the Reform view. Calvinism to me is the Gospel. George Whitefield said, "We are all born Arminians. It is grace that turns us into Calvinists. There is certain doctrines called Calvinistic, which I think commend themselves to the minds of all thoughtfull people who truely believe, and for this reason mainly- "they ascribe to God everything." and to man nothing. As Charles Spurgeon once said,
---mark on 7/24/07


#2 Ed: "I believe nothing merely because Calvin taught it, but because I have found his teaching in the Word of God" He goes on to say, "we hold and assert again and again that the truth which Calvin preached was the very truth which the apostle Paul had long before written in his inspire epistles, and which is most clearly revealed in the discourses of our blessed Lord Himself."
---mark on 7/24/07


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Mark,

Although i have made my views on calvinism loud and clear, your response is patient, rational (as far as reason can take one in a matter of religion) and good-natured. I admire and thank you for that. God bless. Ed
---Ed on 7/23/07


To say that there is one emotion or even thought that goes through someone's mind when they are saved is false. The true measure of salvation is a person's "fruit". Do they do the right thing for the right reasons with the right heart, or is any one of these elements missing? If you look good on the outside, but your actions are out of spite or pride, then you need to try again.
---Amanda on 7/22/07


There are events in life that are important and must happen and there are events that are not of importance and may go either way. Predestination occurs in the important events, whether someone is saved or not, etc. Whether someone is saved or not is based on that person's heart.
---Amanda on 7/22/07


Peace to you Ed. I hope that in our conversations something lights up that will help you. All I can do is print it, and let God be true. Praise be to our "Lord " and Savior Jesus Christ, forever and ever.
---mark on 7/22/07


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1. Mark

When I had the feeling/experience/change of attitude/mindset I didn't see Jesus. But I felt God's presence (God isn't just Jesus but The Holy Spirit and The Father, as well). They are equally as important as Jesus. I could argue that your whole focus is on Jesus, and not enough on The Holy Spirit and The Father. I don't know these intricacies. Just as i am not here to tell people about the intricacies of my personal faith (other's people faith is just as important as mine).
---Ed on 7/22/07


2. Mark

But let me tell you now, loud and clear. That experience brought me to Jesus in what you would describe as 'born again' what The Catholic Church calls grace.
---Ed on 7/22/07


Ed, my explanation about what born again means to you was not important to me but was for your understanding. It probably was useless to you. I kind of thought it would be since you don't understand the teachings. But really, it doesn't matter on my part since I can only explain it. The passages of 1 Cor. 13 that we spoke on was to explain to you what true love was, but I cannot make you understand. You didn't get it and so be it. Your explanation of Calvinism is still false.
---mark on 7/22/07


#2. Ed: Calvinism is all about God, from first to last, His will, not ours. From electing a chosen people to the redemption of them and the keeping of all those He has chosen. So man is but clay. You fail to see this because you have taken one part of Scripture and neglected the rest. Concerning you statement about when you were 17 and had that great love, I went back to check again to see what you quoted and you not once spoke of the great love for Christ.
---mark on 7/22/07


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#3. Ed, You see Ed, the first thing a person feels when he is born again is the great love for Christ. Nothing is greater in our heart at the time then the love of Christ. While you know everything about Christ as everyone else does, you forgot to mention that. I can only know you by what you write. I would assume if you were born again the first thing you would have mentioned was, that great love for Christ you never had before, but you didn't. I was only answering to what you wrote.
---mark on 7/22/07


just a note im steven and my computer recently crashed so i'll go by
steven rem7000 so as no confusing me w/ another
greetings Mark and like mined in the faith that was and is delivered too the saints. to God be the glory
---steven_rem7000s on 7/22/07


2 Helen

But i am not hear to talk about my personal faith (only in how it lends to my arguments) but to point out to Mark why i believe he is wrong (in my belief) about Calvinism

We are all Christians. We all believe Jesus died on the cross for our sins. I don't know what you are trying to achieve by repeating this to everyone as if they don't believe this. All this appears to do is insult people, not encourage them in their faith. Please Helen, what is the point of all your posts?
---Ed on 7/21/07


3 Helen

Lastly. Don't forget that God is not only Jesus Christ. God is also The Father and The Holy Spirit. You accuse me of not mentioning Jesus Christ enough when you hardly mention The Father or The Holy Spirit. I don't expect you don't mention The Trinity, all the time, because i take it you are a Christian and believe in the Trinity. This discussion board is about persuading others through reasonable debate. It is not about shouting, the loudest, who has the most faith in Jesus Christ.
---Ed on 7/21/07


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4 Helen

Also if you were consistent you would be taking Mark on about Calvinism. I ask you Helen if you believe Calvinism is wrong then why don't you debate with Mark about it. Why go, directly, for me? This post is, after all, about what is wrong with predestination (not just what is wrong with Ed's beliefs).
---Ed on 7/21/07


Eph.1:11
In whom also we (believers) having obtained an inheritance being predestinated according to the purpose of HIM who works ALL THINGS after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL.
Rom.8:30
More over whom HE DID PREDESTINATE...READ ON... GOD THE FATHER, GOD THE SON, AND GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT, DID, DO, AND DOES, ALL THE WORK. IT'S CALLED SALVATION BY GRACE!!! It's free it's soveriegn and it's "GOD whom shows mercy and compassion on whomsoever HE wills" Rom.9:15
---steven on 7/21/07


1. Mark
'Calvinism puts so much emphasis in individuals' - because Calvinism is focused on the believer believing that the believer is 'saved' and of the elect (and that others not). It is self-indulgent in nature. It is all about me and how i am more righteous than others.
---Ed on 7/21/07


2 Mark

'When you speak that it is man's will that God is subject to' - that is NOT true. I have never said or suggested that. Seems to me that you imagine this is what i think because you have got yourself into an either or situation (which is the problem of extreme beliefs like Calvinism, and Semipelagianism being on the other extreme). As i have said before salvation is 100% a gift from God. But that we have to accept it by carrying out God's commandments.
---Ed on 7/21/07


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3 Mark

'It is easy to speak about something that you have no knowledge about'. Catholicism has its own form of predestination (Janeism). And yes i do understand what it is like to think i am more righteous than othes (i think it all the time, but that is because i am a sinner. It is sinful to be self-righteous).

'You speak about how at 17 years old you got a love that you never had before' - i never said that. Just that i had not been EXPOSED so directly to His love like that before.
---Ed on 7/21/07


4 Mark

'I felt that I had to love everyone in order to be a good guy. But I didn't understand a true love for Christ was necessary' - but i did.

'A commitment to Christ that I was giving all control of my life to Him. Acknowledging that I had sinned against Him all my life and wanted to make things right with Him. No one had told me I had to repent' - but the monks who educated me told me all of this, and i accepted it.
---Ed on 7/21/07


5 Mark

'Loving everyone does not make you save Ed. Anything that we do without Christ is sin' - with respect, have you not taken in what i have been saying throughout my posts: Jesus' greatest commandments being LOVE GOD (and neighbour).

Seems to me you have some category i fit into (case of pigeon-holing) so that your theory of Calvinism works out nicely for you. But the religious practise you attribute to me exists only in your own imagination, not what i have said or believe.
---Ed on 7/21/07


6 Mark

'It's all about how great you are' - have admitted that i can be self-righteous. But you try and make out that self-righteousness (at the heart of Calvinism) is a credible belief. I believe that salvation is for all (but that doesn't necesarrily mean all will be saved). You believe that salvation is for some. I believe that God loves all, you, that God loves only some. Yes, i often think i am great. But i know that if i believe that then i am committing a sin and distancing myself from God.
---Ed on 7/21/07


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7 Mark

...But with Calvinists it doesn't matter if you think you are great or not. What is important is whether you are of the elect or not.

And finally, Mark, don't forget the Holy Spirit and The Father - The Trinity. You, yourself, haven't mentioned them at all, yourself (but i don't conclude, from that, thay you don't worship them).

And i repeat it is our duty to love others, as well as, and above all, love God. Not because i say so but because Jesus says so.

God Bless.
---Ed on 7/21/07


Mark

Finally. I am here because i want YOU to see the light of day. Whether there were other people reading this post or not. Because at the end of the day Calvinism is a deadly heresy. A heresy that Jesus, Himself, spoke against at length (the self-righteousness of the Pharisees etc ..). At the end of the day it is not our job to judge who is saved and who isn't. But that we treat all people like our neighbour. That we go on praying to God, and fighting temptation, fearing God and loving God.
---Ed on 7/21/07


1. Helen

I wasn't 17 when i first believed that Jesus Christ died on the Cross for my sins. I can't remember how old i was. I began in fits and starts from about the age when i first went to Mass and listened to the gospel and the priest. It wasn't until i was about 13 that i began to pray to God, regularily, and thanking Him for the great sacrifice He made for the salvation of mankind.
I could write a 100 hundred books about my personal belief in this and my faith in Jesus Christ.
---Ed on 7/21/07


Ed, I don't know where you get the idea that Calvinism puts so much emphasis in indiviuals. That is further from the truth. What Calvinist put their emphases on is God. From beginning to end. It is you and others that put emphases on indiviuals, "Man." When you speak that it is man's will that God is subject to. We speak it is God's will that man is subject to. You need to study Calvinism to know those facts because you are not speaking truth. Even though you speak on behalf of love,
---mark on 7/20/07


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#2, Ed: Any answers that anyone gives are only opinions, and yours is just like the rest. It is easy to speak about something that you have no knowledge about, but when confronted with answers you are not able to answer. Just take what you said about your born again experience. You speak about how at 17 years old you got a love that you never had before. That is your experience of born again. But in all your testament, you never mentioned that for the first time, you had a true love for Christ.
---mark on 7/20/07


#3. Ed: I too had a great love for everybody when I was 17. I too was a Catholic at the time. I felt that I had to love everyone in order to be a good guy. But I didn't understand a true love for Christ was necessary. A commitment to Christ that I was giving all control of my life to Him. Acknowledging that I had sinned against Him all my life and wanted to make things right with Him. No one had told me I had to repent. Loving everyone does not make you save Ed. Anything that we do without Christ is sin.
---mark on 7/20/07


#4. Ed: From the beginning of my converstions to you, I spoke to you about this love spoken of in 1 Corinthians 13, and what it meant. Yet nothing has touched you from it. All your talk about how you are a great loving guy, excludes Christ. It is all about how great you are and how much you love everyone, yet Christ is no where to be found. That is the mistake Ed. No Christ.
---mark on 7/20/07


Jer 1:4 Now the word of Yahweh came to me, saying,
:5 "Before I formed you in the belly, I knew you. Before you came forth out of the womb, I sanctified you. I have appointed you a prophet to the nations."

Ex 9:15 For now I will stretch out my hand, that I may smite you and your people with pestilence..
:16 And in very deed for this cause have I raised you up..

These are examples. There are others.
---a_servant on 7/20/07


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To Ed our believes, The subject of Predestination, is not hard to understand. It is as Bill has explained it. The Plan of God. When God plans something, it always come true. For all Calvinist there is really only one point to be made in the subject of soteriology. The point, that God saves sinners. God-triune Jehovah, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Three Persons working together in sovereign wisdom, power and love to achieve the salvation of a chosen people.
---mark on 7/20/07


#2. to Ed: The Father electing, the Son fulfilling the Father's will by redeeming, the Spirit executing the purpose of Father and Son by renewing. He Jehovah the Triune God saves and does everything from first to last. No where is man or indiviuals included on this as you have said Ed. As a matter of fact, man is condemned already, and walking to his doom. He has no part but to get on his knees and give thanks to Almight God for having mercy on him. So your statement was false concering Calvinist.
---mark on 7/20/07


"What is predestination?" I can see that what people are arguing about is not even what the Bible says predestination really is. The arguers of BOTH "sides" of an argument can be wrong. You might read the Bible, for yourself, and see what it says, and not worry about the double talk people use to explain their way out of what the Bible clearly does say.
---Bill_bila5659 on 7/20/07


Predestination . . . there is always more to learn about what predestination really is, because whatever is really true about God, there is MORE to learn. So, to have some set idea YOU can understand and argue for or against it . . . this can have us DECOYED from appreciating what predestination really is, I offer, and what it means for us, practically.
---Bill_bila5659 on 7/20/07


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Ed - Have read your posts to Mark below. You have not mentioned the Cross of Christ even once. To be saved (born-again) one has to believe that Jesus Christ took on human flesh and gave His life in Sacrifice for sin on the Cross then He rose from the dead. If you do not believe this, then you are not saved. Do you believe that Jesus Christ would have died for you even if you were the only person on earth? That is how much He loves you. Without the Cross there is no salvation.
---Helen_5378 on 7/20/07


To "predestine" > to me, this means to decide and plan in advance what WILL happen and can not fail to take place. Only God is able to destine without any possibility of failure.

Yes, we can destine ourselves to suffer because of our stupid choices of our free wills (because our SELFISH loves doom us to fail and suffer), but we do not KNOWINGLY destine how we WILL suffer and fail.

But when ***God*** destines in ***His*** love, He KNOWS the outcome AND causes the good to happen.
---Bill_bila5659 on 7/20/07


Therefore, Paul gives the glory to God for how we chose to obey > "But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered." (Romans 6:17)

Our hearts were "desperately wicked" (consider Jeremiah 17:9). God had to change our hearts so we could then choose to obey. The credit and worship, then, is purely to You, O LORD. THANK You, for having such mercy on us ! ! !
---Bill_bila5659 on 7/20/07


1. Mark

I was 'born again' when i was aged 17. I know what i experienced, it was profound, deep, long-lasting - and i felt love for others, not malice, a love from somewhere else, that no evil spirit could ever fake (that's the thing about evil, one thing it can never fake: is real love - and the world's best theologian or a poor, uneducated peasant - something we all have in common - is being able to recognize real love. That is the core of God. The core of our faith. God's love keeping us safe.
---Ed on 7/20/07


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2 Mark

At the end of the day Catholics call 'being born again' grace. At the end of the day we have to have faith and love to receive the gift (and it is a gift i hasten to add). But this gift is offered to all. Grace comes and go in different degrees as we pass through life. God tests us to increase our faith. We also sin and grace diminishes. No-one understands the real mystery of grace. Neither Catholics. Nor Protestants who talk of 'being born again.'
---Ed on 7/20/07


3 Mark

You might say the child baptism is the Church's way of saying you are now 'born again'. At the end of the day we have to act upon the sacraments, as we grow older and come to understand God. We must pray. Accept that we really do believe in God. And carry out His core commandments of Love God and neighbour. I am a Catholic and wouldn't want to change. But i want to be a good Christian, not just a good Catholic! And i recognize that Protestants are Christians too.
---Ed on 7/20/07


4. Mark

As far as i see it (from the Bible and intution), our journey is about being moderate about doctrine, but radical in our faith in Jesus, and in carrying out his core commandments of Love God and neighbour.

I believe Calvinism and Pelagianism / Semipelagianism are dangerous because they put so much emphasis on the individual (I am special over others in God's eyes, or I can do it on my own).
---Ed on 7/20/07


5. Mark

But moderates (in terms of doctrine), in between, say (based on the Bible, and i have give you lots of quotes) all can be saved but that humans have to respond to God's gift by following out His commands (core commands being love - and being radical not moderate about this), fighting temptation (radical not moderate), and praying (radical not moderate).
---Ed on 7/20/07


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6 Mark

I believe Protestant Calvinists and Catholic Pelagians have much more in common than with Catholics and Protestants who are moderate in doctrine but radical in their faith in Jesus, radical in their belief in prayer, radical in their fight of temptation, and radical in their belief that carrying out Jesus' core commandments (Love God and Love nieghbour) are at the centre of their Christian life.
---Ed on 7/20/07


7 Mark
There are no such things as factions. I believe that Calvinism (and Pelegianism) is a form of spiritual blindness. But that many inspirational Christians were, at one time, Calvinististic or Pelangianistic (because God's salvation is for all, although not all will necesarily be saved).
And in fact we all, at one time or another, maintain these beliefs, at a subliminal level, knowing in the light of day that they are wrong and bring about sinful acts.

God Bless.
---Ed on 7/20/07


Again Ed, I thank you for even answering. You have your opinion and your teachings and I have my own. Your ways or not my ways, and your believes are not my believes. Lets just keep it at that and I will not defend Calvinism for your sake. It would be impossible but one thing is sure, God is Sovereign and ruler of all, man is a sinner in need of Christ. All need to be born again. All need to feel their sins against God in order to repent. Otherwise there is never no change.
---mark on 7/19/07


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