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Are Crosses A Graven Image

I noticed how God says not to worship idols. He said do not carve any image from heaven or earth & worship it, so what does that say about crosses in church?

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 ---Olivia on 6/11/06
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The World owes a great deal to Monks who worked copying writing and teaching in Monasteries without them much more of history would have been lost.

But Christians are called to be in the world but not of the World. We are called to help others reach others and tell them about JESUS.

That is impossible to do when you lock yourself up or sit on a pillar forty feet up in the air. Read Matthew 25
---Samuelbb7 on 2/28/14


//traditional Orthodox and Benedictine monks and nuns live how most American lived 150 years ago//
"Most Americans", 150 years ago, didn't have running water, electricity or our "so called" modern retranslations.
I wonder what the monks and nuns use?
---michael_e on 2/28/14


shira, traditional Orthodox and Benedictine monks and nuns live how most American lived 150 years ago--in a rural enviornment on subsistence farming, where ALL members of the family, regardless of age, worked to help support all.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/27/14


shira4368: "Sounds like you attend Steveng church... do you have a job? how can you do something daily and work daily? I'm not questioning your faith but just trying to figure you out."

There is nothing to figure out. We live by the words of God only. Yes, we work as did the apostles and other godly people in the bible. Who do you suppose can cloth the naked, feed the poor, give drink to the thirsty without money?

Christianity is a daily lifestyle that is based upon the ultimate commandment - love, genuine love - not a once a week meeting every sunday for an hour where people are only hearers of the word. We walk the talk daily.
---Steveng on 2/27/14


Cluny, glad you can enlighten me about something I don't know about, yes I do understand they work but they don't support families. It is just different.
---shira4368 on 2/27/14




\\cluny, I was not speaking about people in a monastery because men live there. I'm talking about men who hold a job down and work 12 hours a day.\\

In Orthodoxy, nuns' communities are called monasteries, too.

And what do you think goes on in monasteries, anyway?

Do you think that caring for the dairy, the farm, and other things that go on in them are not jobs?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/27/14


cluny, I was not speaking about people in a monastery because men live there. I'm talking about men who hold a job down and work 12 hours a day.
---shira4368 on 2/27/14


\\how can you do something daily [I assume you mean worship daily--C] and work daily? \\

I happens all the time in Orthodox monasteries.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/26/14


Steveng, you are draped in a cloak of mystery. You say it but we don't know and on the other hand, we know. Sounds like you attend Steveng church. why don't you just say it? You don't go to any church but you and your friends gather daily. do you have a job? how can you do something daily and work daily? I'm just curious and I would like to know. I'm not questioning your faith but just trying to figure you out.
---shira4368 on 2/26/14


\\So, just by reading my posts, what denominational church do you think I belong?
---Steveng on 2/24/14\\

Just because it's not as organized as others does not keep it from being denominational.

But for lack of a better name, I'll call it the Church of Steveng.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/25/14




We assemble wherever two or more are gathered in Jesus' name whether at a park, a cafe, a street corner, or in one's home. We meet daily as the bible commands especially in today's world where it's easy to wonder off the path towards the Kingdom of God.

One hundred percent of our money goes to the people who need it. Denominational churches spend upward of 80% of the donations and weekly tithes for the upkeep of the building, landscaping, wages, art treasures, furnitures, sound and video equipment, and all the other worldly possessions. They also must keep up-to-date on their corporation tax exempt status.
---Steveng on 2/25/14


Dear David

Where?
---Samuelbb7 on 2/25/14


Samuelbb7- to aviod being accused of hyjacking this thread, I have replied to your issues addressed to me elsewhere.
---David8318 on 2/25/14


Cluny: "Are you that hard-headed that you cannot understand that you really DO belong to a denominational church?"

So, just by reading my posts, what denominational church do you think I belong?
---Steveng on 2/24/14


To Bro.Steveng, all respect to you.
Post 2/23/14 I sure do agree.

The church' in general status - gov',t,dinners, finances, politics, big bling shows
(getting the people in) -depend on the denomination.

I don't hear about any here visit the sick, help the poor or go to nursing homes,jails,nor minister on the streets!
Years ago, bible study at a coffee shop or a burger place...

Now it' politics!

"Christianity is a lifestyle".
---Lidia4796 on 2/24/14


Dear David

Lies and scare tactics about blood transfusions for decades ago should not be used by those who value truth.

Failure to knock on doors makes a person lost? Where is that in Scripture?

To believe that JESUS is just a mighty Spirit being. Demeans JESUS by lowering who he is? So what you say does not make any sense. JESUS was physically resurrected. Read First Corinthians 15. I have not read it in your churches translation so you may have changed what it says. So pick an actual real translation.

I was Born Again over 40 years ago. To be saved and see the Kingdom you must be Born Again. John 3. When were you born again?
---Samuelbb7 on 2/24/14


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\\Are you that hard-headed that you cannot understand that I do not belong to a denominational church?\\

I know you CLAIM you do not. This is nothing but simple denial.

Are you that hard-headed that you cannot understand that you really DO belong to a denominational church?

Glory to Jesus Chris!
---Cluny on 2/24/14


We are not to worship idols. Or carve images of those in heaven, earth and under the earth. A cross is symbolic of the death of Christ. But He is risen. And nobody can describe how He looks now.
---Luke on 2/24/14


Steveng, I know we belong to the body of Christ but as a believer, where do you congregate with other believers? That is the local church another body of Christ. don't forsake the assembling yourselves in The Lord. Maybe my church body of Christ is a sub- body. Do you have a sub-body where you congregate?
---shira4368 on 2/23/14


Steveng, you just described my church. We don't own anything except a mortgage on our bldg. however I do know a church in Memphis that owns all the stuff you mentioned. I went to look at the church because the founding pastor was well known man of God. I thought I was I an expensive mall. I know the founder is probably rolling over in his grave.
---shira4368 on 2/23/14


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Cluny: "As the beloved Protestant hymn said, "So I'll cherish the old rugged cross.....""

There is a huge difference between man-written hymns and the words of God.
---Steveng on 2/23/14


Cluny: "How about your own denominational church, Steveng?"

Are you that hard-headed that you cannot understand that I do not belong to a denominational church? We don't have buildings, corporations, art treasures, stocks and bonds, material possessions - or raise the money for upkeep of these things.

Christianity is a lifestyle. We congregate wherever two or more are gathered - a street corner, a park, a local cafe, or in one's home.

100% of our donations go directly to the people who need it. We give from the heart and not depend on the denominational church to do it. How much of your denominational church's money go to the upkeep of your worldy material possessions and wages? 70%? 80%?
---Steveng on 2/23/14


I've always believed that if a man is wrong on the small details, he's more than likely way off track on the greater things.

David, I'm not, and have never been, Catholic.
---Marc on 2/22/14


Marc I noticed the childish post of David after your revealing statement.

This is another example of a cultist who can't think on his own. He must copy something from someone else or have nothing to say.

Marc you are lucky. At least David didn't change your words to try to make out like you said something else.

He is a cultist that doesn't believe the clear Scripture teaching that Jesus is God. We can not expect anything good from him.
---Elder on 2/22/14


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David how do you know about Marc's child. All I can say to you is you are the most rude person and no compassion for a dying child. You would be better off walking the street selling your vomit cult.
---shira4368 on 2/21/14


Poor Marc the Catholic. He struggles, day in, day out to prove his worthiness to men. He must allow his dying child to accept blood transfusions and watch it die of AIDS or other death dealing pathogens, he failed to be a Christian and knock on doors, he can't say Jesus died because he believes Jesus is God who cannot die, Jesus only fleshly resurrected, not a mighty spirit being, can't admit he is a Catholic because of the child abuse scandals. Poor, poor Marc, at no time can he know that Jesus has already saved him (if only Marc would admit defeat) because he refuses to work for God and chooses a pagan polytheist life. At no time can Marc allow Jesus to take this unbearable load because he doesn't believe him. How frightening. Poor, poor Marc.
---David8318 on 2/21/14


Poor David the JW. He struggles, and must continue to struggle, day in, day out (it's never-ending,) to prove his worthiness for eternal life. He mustn't allow his dying child accept life-saving blood transfusions, he must knock on doors, he can't say Jesus died on a cross but only a single stake, Jesus only spiritually resurrected, not in a body, he couldn't have an organ transplant, but then Jehovah changed his mind and he could. Poor, poor David, at no time can he know that Jesus has already saved him (if only David would admit defeat) because he has to work and work so that Jehovah maybe, or not, can give him eternal life. At no time can David allow Jesus to take this unbearable load. How frightening. Poor, poor David.
---Marc on 2/21/14


\\No I don't kiss my cross \\

And so what if you did?

As the beloved Protestant hymn said, "So I'll cherish the old rugged cross....."

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/21/14


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Steven, I don't know where you get your information on my denomination, but it's obvious you don't know what you are saying. No I don't kiss my cross and I don't need it to know I love Jesus my Savior but you know what? I like it and I will wear it. Before you jump on me, you need to check your own heart.
---shira4368 on 2/21/14


==Does your denominational church in itself give you love as Jesus gave? Your denominational church is an inanimate object.==

How about your own denominational church, Steveng? You seem to condemn yourself with every post.

**Matt23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Now what is your opinion of that?**

Actually, I have no opinion.

But without looking at your Bible can you tell me what the next verse says?

Besides, there are places in the Acts and Epistles where men are addressed collectively as "fathers" and not in the biological sense, either.

What's your opinion of that?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/21/14


shira4368: "Steven and trey, wearing a cross is not a graven image. It is just a note of remembrance."

Does one need to have a metal or wooden object to remember they are christian?

Christianity is a lifestyle of love. Does your denominational church in itself give you love as Jesus gave? Your denominational church is an inanimate object.

Some so-called christians do worship the cross expecially in Mexico and South America. They kiss it, do they not? Many get angry or upset because they left their idol at home.
---Steveng on 2/20/14


Cluny, the man I spoke of is really no different than the Catholics or the Orthodoxs.

Now let's see, the Orthodox Pope. Pope comes from the Latin word Poppa meaning Father.

Matt23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Now what is your opinion of that?
---trey on 2/20/14


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Dear Moderator, please do not post what I just wrote to Cluny. I wrote it in anger after reading his post. Thanks,
Trey
---trey on 2/20/14


"There is a difference between Idols and just objects. Read the Second part of the Commandment. While some people do think Crosses are magical which is a problem. Most are not of that view."-Samuelbb7 on 2/20/14
Agreed
Num 21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
What does the object (inc. Bibles) mean to you?
Are you holding it in higher regard than the Creator or replacing it with Him?
Exo 32:4 ...fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These [be] thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
---micha9344 on 2/20/14


Exd 20:4,5
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,

There is a difference between Idols and just objects. Read the Second part of the Commandment. While some people do think Crosses are magical which is a problem. Most are not of that view.
---Samuelbb7 on 2/20/14


trey, do you actually think that your opinion matters one whit in the relationship between this man and his Savior?

St. Paul's words apply in this case. To his own Lord he stands or falls, and stand he will, because God is able to make him stand.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/20/14


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Steven and trey, wearing a cross is not a graven image. It is just a note of remembrance. If I wore Buddha that is something else. We don't worship a cross, we are thankful for it.
---shira4368 on 2/20/14


\\ It is my opinion he had made that cross into an idol.
---trey on 2/19/14\\

And you know what they say opinions are like.

Everybody's got one, and they are all full of the same stinky stuff.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/20/14


Scripture states that one should not make a "graven image."

Scripture states one should not make "'any' likeness."

Why does a christian need a worldly reminder that they are a christian? Does one really need to be reminded that they are a christian? It is a weak christian who needs a piece of metal or wood to remind them that they are christians.

Your love of God and love of others is to be your reminder. Love, genuine love, cannot be made from worldly material by human hands.
---Steveng on 2/19/14


A friend of mine lived next to a man that had a huge cross in a front room of his house. There was nothing else in the room beside a spot light that shone on the cross. There were no curtains on the windows which made it easy to see into the room. The man would go in the room multiple times a day and fall down before the cross to pray. It is my opinion he had made that cross into an idol.
---trey on 2/19/14


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\\Cluny, my deepest apologies. I stand corrected. Misread your post.
---shira4368 on 2/18/14\\

Of course.

It's very easy on these blogs to lose track of who said what when.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/19/14


Cluny, my deepest apologies. I stand corrected. Misread your post.
---shira4368 on 2/18/14


I do not understand why people attack the Cross. Afraid of them that is okay.
---Samuelbb7 on 2/14/14


Now, I got to confess maybe it's strange but, true. Since a child I have always been terribly afraid of Crosses.. the ones that hang on the wall. I remember as a little girl, I would cry and run.
My grandmother said "she afraid of big crosses".
I can not remember how it started.
This was as a child.

You get over things,like I visited a catholic charismatic church,beautifull people.. just the services long late into the nite. I quit going..
I heard they ask about me..
kind people.
---Lidia4796 on 2/13/14


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\\wow, cluny is amazing to think the cross is evil. where do you get this from? it is a symbol of Christ on the cross, shed His blood for me...and you.
---shira4368 on 2/3/14\\

shira, have you not noticed that what I put between \\ or similar marks is actually a quote from someone else?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/4/14


shira4368,

Cluny was just quoting James Maxey below in the first sentence between \\ and \\.
---Nana on 2/3/14


wow, cluny is amazing to think the cross is evil. where do you get this from? it is a symbol of Christ on the cross, shed His blood for me...and you.
---shira4368 on 2/3/14


\\Yes a cross is a graven images and to wear a cross around your neck it is a curse or have one in your house. \\

If the very word "Cross" is foolishness to those who are perishing, how much more is the visual representation of the bridge of our salvation hateful to them?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/3/14


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Thank you Jared. You could add that we should not use the names of the days of the week since they are named after pagan gods.

Unfortunately a cross will not protect from evil. There are no magical symbols. When an image is treated as a magic symbol then it becomes idolatry.

Even statues which are much closer than a cross are not truly idols until you look at the statue as being the object you are praying too. But if you think of it as representing the person you are praying to then I still believe it is wrong. The Second of the Ten in the Protestant version and first in the RCC. Does prohibit images that are part of worship. But not decorations.
---Samuelbb7 on 2/3/14


Yes a cross is a graven images and to wear a cross around your neck it is a curse or have one in your house. For your information the word church, bible, lord, god, amen and holy are pagan words. And there is lot more pagan words that you mention everyday and do know they are pagan. Do your homework.
---James_Maxey on 2/2/14


Displaying a cross, which is the emblem of the sacrifice of Innocent Jesus being nailed to the cross, is not idolatry, but a symbol of Christ's sacrificial love. Almighty Christ says: "Greater love no one has than this, that someone lay down their life for their friends." Noone that I know is worshipping a cross in church, nor are they talking to the cross, nor are they consulting the cross as though it were God.
---Eloy on 7/22/11


As a catholic, i have always and will always wear my crucifix and rosary beads, as as a catholic it reminds me that there is a higher GOD then just humans on this earth. I think too many interpretations causing Havoc, which Pentecost and pastors read in between the lines. So how about we all wear our crucifix to remember what JESUS has done for our SOULS and SALVATION.
---Natalie_Dambiec on 7/21/11


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Some Christian denominations use the cross as simply a sign or symbol. A cross on the spire of a building means that the building is being used as a church. Others, especially, the Catholics, respected the cross as something that could ward off evil. The association of a cross to the death of Jesus Christ is more pronounced with the Catholics (I hope the Catholics would continue this line of thought. I am not a catholic, my mother was), that they end up kneeling and worshipping in front of a cross.
---Bebet3754 on 5/20/07


a cross is not a graven image unless we allow it to be then football,if we put it higher than God in ourbpriorities may not be a graven image but is still an idol!Anything that we put before God is wrong I find the cross helps when I am low it reminds me of what Jesus suffered and How much HE Loves me,I paint and have done several crosses they arenever worshipped but are visual reminders of the great love of God to us
---doree4573 on 11/17/06


tell me again why ROMANS used a symbol for a BABYLONIAN god to kill criminals? Next I bet it is wrong to worship in a building because they were once devoted to a pagan god of shelter, or maybe we shouldn't wear clothing because there was a Hindu goddess of silk that was depicted in the form of humans which is the shape of our modern shirts.God redeems the culture and their symbols he brings life to deadness. God has used the Cross once a symbol of suffering and shame to be the symbol of Glory and Hope.
---Jared on 11/16/06


We know the big "tick" for Nike gear. The T or cross was the sign for Tammuz, an idol of the sun diety. It was called the Tau cross, and came right out of Babylon.The word cross is wrongly translated. Strongs #4716 Stauros=stake / upright post. If you wear a cross and pray it is in front of you, the sign of a pagan sun diety, you may not be praying to it but it is carved as a religious sign, honour is being given to a pagan symbol. The easter bun is the sun and the cross is the sign of Tammuz.
---Toby on 11/15/06


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nothing is an idol if you don't worship it. a cross or an icon or a statue can all direct your attention to God and help your worship, but if you regard the image as the god you worship, offering your prayers and treasures to it the it would be. there are idolitars that use no images and devout christians that do.
---Jared on 11/15/06


HMMM...
There is no Breath in it...
A Tree has more Life Spirit...
Even a Rock...
Even a Bug...
Even Water...
Even Earth...
Even Fire...
Even Air...

All of these Elements of Nature are more Vital that dead wood...hmmm....

~rachel~
---Reiter on 11/14/06


Jack your a man after my own heart.amen brother.
---tom2 on 6/17/06


Olivia, the key word in your post is worship.An idol is something you worship above God.Idols can be many things.Money,material possessions,to name a few.now baring other non existant gods and nature and the sun , and moon , and any other thing made by GOD nothing that draws men to GODis bad. The cross is a symbol of the work done by jesus.to say it is a graven image not worthy to be in churches is wrong to say.
---tom2 on 6/15/06


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There is one early Christian writer who said, "When two beams are joined in a cross, I venerate it and kiss it only because of Him who was crucified for me on one, but when the beams are separated, I throw them away and burn them."

If a cross or crucifix is an idol, then so is the American flag, and the Pledge is a prayer to a piece of cloth.
---Jack on 6/15/06


Helen, it's wonderful how you can tell for sure about the spiritual life of people you've not even met and and give infallible pronouncements on how valid it is.

Not even the Pope's infalibility goes that far.
---Jack on 6/15/06


Catherine - Only the Spirit of God can take one deeper into prayer. A statue cannot do that ... you would be totally in the flesh and would not get very far -- your prayers would not even reach the ceiling. God requires of His children that we trust in Him totally, and that does not mean having something man-made to remind us of Him.
---Helen_5378 on 6/13/06


God commanded people to make statues and images for religious purposes and healing. (Part II)

As for the use of a crucifix (in addition to the use of a cross):

1 Cor 1:23 "we proclaim Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles"
1 Cor 2:2 "For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ, and him crucified."
---Catherine on 6/13/06


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God commanded people to make statues and images for religious purposes and healing.

Cherubim in Exodus 25:18-19.
Saraph Serpent in Numbers 21:8-9.

We are told not to *worship* statues or images. These things are reminders of the God we love. They can bring us deeper into prayer.

Galatians 6:14 "But may I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world."
---Catherine on 6/13/06


The gist of these many answers seems to be that one's own cross is not an idol, but OTHER people's crosses are.

I don't know anyone who "worships" the cross with LATREIA belonging to God alone. Do you?
---Jack on 6/13/06


The last cross I made was a 3'by3' mahoghany cross for my home.I love it and whatever you may think about me ,I have made
them 9' tall and 4' wide.It must be hard to disown children and give up all pictures ,decor etc.Memories can be beautiful.Maybe some worship material possessions like idols .But I never think of idols.Same about my wedding rings and clothes and shoes.Free yourself from bondage.lulac3895
---Lula on 6/12/06


My dear Baptist mother-in-law gave us a beautiful Bible with beautiful pictures in it of the Holy FAmily and Jesus crucified. When our children were born my friends gave them children's Bibles with pictures throughout. They read them and kissed the pictures out of love for Jesus. Are you trying to tell me that this is idolotry? I agree with the reply from 'bible' earlier on the pure heart. Try to see with the eyes of God and your heart will reflect His Love rather than your judgements.
---eleanor on 6/12/06


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I plainly think because of what the bible says it means. & crosses in churches are no exception. We might not bow to it, but it still is there,it's a carved image. I have the bible with Gods word reminding me of Jesus & what he did. I just do not see the point in stepping over Gods command & insist on wooden images in Gods house.As for carrying our crosses daily, it means our loads daily, or part of the responsibility, not a litral cross.
---olivia on 6/12/06


I don't think we need crosses anywhere.
---john on 6/12/06


I have considered this before. I do not worship the cross I wear on my neck. I sometimes forget it is there. I wear it as a reminder to me and a witness to others. I have had several opportunities to witness to others because I wear a cross. I think the cross is a visual reminder mostly. It reminds me and my family NOT to worship any graven image.
---Amy on 6/11/06


Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
---Bible on 6/11/06


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There is no other answer than this, a cross is a graven image.
---mima on 6/11/06


Well christ said those would follow me let him take up his cross daily.the cross represents a place to come to to give you sins and disobidience up to the lord.it also represents your daily fight within your spirit which are your weaknesses.all covered by the blood of our lord.the cross is an intergral part of the salvation story, and a continuing reminder of christs redemption of us all.
---tom2 on 6/11/06


I believe it is perfectly alright to have an empty Cross in church, signifying our risen Saviour. The "cross" that is not alright is the Crucifix --- it is demonic, and as such Christians should have nothing to do with it. A Crucifix leads many people to believe that itself is Jesus. I asked a lady once if she believed in Jesus -- she touched the crucifix on her neck and said yes I have Him here.... how sad.
---Helen_5378 on 6/11/06


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