To have sacred images in ones home is no different than having pictures of your loved ones in your home. You are not worshipping the pictures of your family but the pictures serve to bring them to mind just like the pictures and statues of Jesus, Mary, and the saints do. Veneration is not the same as worship which knowledgeable Catholics know is due to God alone. Mary, The Angels and the the saints are deserving of honor because they are holy. |
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---janet on 4/8/08 |
Not bothered just deeply saddaned I believe you have been mislead and or headed to the pit!! |
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---mima on 4/7/08 |
First off: Anyone believing in praying TO a piece of ceramic is a moron. Secondly: I'll use an example of a particular statue I have of St. Michael. Do I believe that this li'l ceramic statue will come to life if I have any danger? No. well. Not exactly. It could if I hurled it at someone's melon right? It's about my confirmation to Love and Worship God. I take it as inspiration to remember "who is like God?" No one. 'nuff said. now bring it. |
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---Nicola on 4/7/08 |
Interesting position catholics believing others are bothered by their idols ...I'm not bothered don't believe Christian would be
God is bothered ...Gophylan's post on 3/26 describes why ...reason why Christians and Jewish people don't have idols in their homes
many catholics rationalize statues honor only except many do fall prey to fanatical worship of statues while others claim it's respect ...either way established church makes lots of money selling their idols
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---Rhonda on 4/4/08 |
Eloy:: Unfortunately you see TRUTH as as excuse because you say are born again- into what? More untruth Which I as an RC point out to you.Love your fellowman don't despise them.You are not above others as you make out Jesus came to serve Not LORD it over all others. |
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---Emcee on 3/26/08 |
Since most people think the law has been abolished I guess that Exodus 20:3-6 has no bearing - Thou shalt have not other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any grave image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the eart. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them nor serve them, for I the L-rd they G-d am a jealouse God, (see part 2) |
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---Gophylan on 3/26/08 |
(part 2)visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generations of them that hate me. And, showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments. I would much rather spend my time with Yeshua/Adonai than with any statute that can do absolutely nothing for me. Yeshua can answer my prayers and a saint or a statue of a saint cannot. |
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---Gophylan on 3/26/08 |
Coveting another man's freedom is also idolatry. |
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---Nana on 3/26/08 |
.emcee, Since I am a born-again Christian, I am not able to receive your falsehood, but I think that catholic blogs would welcome your catholicism. |
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---Eloy on 3/26/08 |
ELOY::You prove by your standard of JUDGEMENT that you are transgressing, the law of God which you will Never admit, as you think you are perfect in your condemnation of your fellow man.Many People worship God in the manner they see fit otherwise they would have to come to you to get the ok on credibility.That is Gods department Only God reads Hearts Yes even Yours and Mine. |
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---Emcee on 3/25/08 |
ELOY::You prove by your standard of JUDGEMENT that you are transgressing, the law of God which you will Never admit, as you think you are perfect in your condemnation of your fellow man.Many People worship God in the manner they see fit otherwise they would have to come to you to get the ok on credibility.That is Gods department Only God reads Hearts Yes even Yours and Mine. |
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---Emcee on 3/25/08 |
.greyrider, you will say and believe whatever you desire. |
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---Eloy on 3/25/08 |
#1) Eloy, being baptized into the RCC does not by itself make someone truly "Roman Catholic". You, and many others on this website, look to the lunatic fringe, who disobey RCC teaching and refer to their bizarre beliefs and practices as "Catholic". The RCC encourages statues in much the same manner as the Pro Football Hall of Fame in Canton, OH. That's all. Anything any individual person does beyond that is THEIR false belief. (cont) |
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---Greyrider on 3/25/08 |
#2) I know what knee-jerk reaction is coming next. I say these people are the lunatic fringe of the RCC (those who talk to statues). People will say, "it's so widespread". There are One Billion Catholics world-wide. If only 5% are the "lunatic fringe" that is FIFTY MILLION PEOPLE !!!! Yes, they are everywhere, but they are still the fringe. Loyal, faithful Roman Catholics merely honor saints for their service to Christ, and hold them up as role models. That's all. |
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---Greyrider on 3/25/08 |
John knew the being he faced was not made from earth as he was, and therefore his instinct was to revere God. But the angel forbidded him revealing that he himself was not God but instead he was sent down from God to him. As for figurines and paintings of angels, I think people commonly confuse "artwork or decoration" with "worship", but they are not the samething. Decorations or pieces of artwork to fill up spaces is a good thing, but worshipping decorations and praying to them is sin |
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---Eloy on 3/24/08 |
.greyrider, learn to discern between decorations, and idolatry: for the one is sin, and the other is a blessing. And if you want to wrongly apply the word, then if you have decorations on your walls, on your clothes, on any thing at all, then you are a hypocrit. God never condemned art and making beautiful graven things, but he condemns idolatry, these are two completely different things. |
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---Eloy on 3/24/08 |
Making statues is not idolatry, but artwork, neither are pictures or paintings idolatry, they are art or decorations. God commanded Moses to make cherubims of gold, which are graven images of angels, and he commmanded the tabernacle to be decorated with graven knops and flowers. Idolatry is the worship and consulting or praying to inanimate objects in the place of God, and secondly it is substituting the Omnipresent Creator God with a finite creature or human. Catholics do this, but Christians do not. |
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---Eloy on 3/24/08 |
The difference between having decorations of pictures and statues, and having idols of pictures and statues, is the worship of them. If a person talks to pictures and statues as though they were alive, and consults them for answers, and worships them, then it is the sin of idolatry, but merely having pictures and statues to beautify empty spaces is called decorating, which is not the same thing as idolatry. |
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---Eloy on 3/24/08 |
I can respect the Amish who don't allow photos or paintings of people either. They're consistent. There is NO DIFFERENCE between statues, photos of family or friends, or paintings of people. If you attack Catholics for statues and you own any photos, you're a hypocrite. |
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---Greyrider on 3/24/08 |
Idolatry is sin. Many people fall prey to being fascinated by objects, called teraphim (earthen or ceramic objects) in the o.t. If you think there is some life or supernal power in your graven statues you are deluded: for they can do zero for you, just as a stone or a piece of wood cannot move nor do any thing at all, so too do inanimate figurines and dead idols can do no thing at all for you. |
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---Eloy on 3/24/08 |
Many people have a superstitious belief that these manmade idols of ancestors protect and bring good fortune to their households, and so they enshrine them and place them around their properties. The old testament calls them teraphim, which are manufactured idols which have absolutely no life nor spirit nor power within them, no more than a piece of wood or furniture or a stone or metal or pottery or cement has any power in them. |
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---Eloy on 3/24/08 |
What do u gain from spending time with those dead saints if i may ask.U cud use that valuable time praying to God in the name of the risen and reigning Christ. |
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---pkay on 3/24/08 |
Having statues and spending time with them is the sin of idolatry. God will not tolerate anyone or anything else being put in the place that rightfully belongs to Him alone. God loves you so much that He sent His only Son Jesus Christ into this world to die on the Cross for your sins, then He rose from the dead. Ask Jesus to forgive you and ask Him into your heart and you will be saved (from sin). |
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---Helen_5378 on 4/29/07 |
Augusta, God's mind is not corrupted. His mind is clean and pure. When He commands something to be done as the instructions for the Ark. His purpose was good. He was not thinking of other gods when He gave the command. He tells us not to build idols, because our minds are corrupt. He knows our thoughts have different intentions. So He commands us not to. If you compare yourself to God and think because He can say and do, and that you can too, only proves your mind is corrupted. |
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---lee_1 on 7/24/06 |
Lupe ,,, I fully agree with what you say. |
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---alan8869_of_UK on 7/15/06 |
Did anyone see Jack's post on the Lord commanding images to be made for the Ark? The Lord would never give us a commandment then instruct us to break it. There's even mention of making statues of men: And it was made with cherubim and palm trees, a palm tree between cherub and cherub. Each cherub had two faces, so that the face of a man was toward a palm tree on one side, and the face of a young lion toward a palm tree on the other side; thus it was made throughout the temple all around. Ez 41:18-19 |
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---augusta on 7/15/06 |
I agree with M.P. We are not to make images of anything for the purpose of worshipping them. This commandment's directly linked to: "You shall have not other gods before Me." |
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---augusta on 7/15/06 |
3. Its when we know it is wrong and we continue to do it, that makes it rebellion against God. Knowing and still doing it. Each one person has his own conscious. His own relationship with Christ. No one is the same as the other. |
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---Lupe2618 on 7/15/06 |
2. and when we do, it might be that at that time we didn't confess some of them and that in itself will not condemn us. Those in Christ are not condemn. When we die there is no more sins, no more time to repent of those sins we never knew we had. I believe each one of us will feel convictions on the area of idols and worship. We know already what is wrong to do and those are not hidden in the heart. If we feel we are doing wrong we should change. |
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---Lupe2618 on 7/15/06 |
Alan, what I meant is that many times we are sinning without realizing it. We hurt others when we don't think we have. But later find out from someone else what we have done and we feel bad. many people have sins that have been hidden in the heart for many years after they were Christian. No one knows what is hidden in the heart but God. The work of the Holy Spirit is to convict us of our sins. When He does we repent. But at one time or another we will die. |
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---Lupe2618 on 7/15/06 |
2. Our artistic abilities are gifts from God so He surely would not expect us to never use those abilities. I cannot think of any way of using any kind of artistic talent other than for making the likeness of something that God has made or shown us how to make. Even people who paint from their imagination still base their ideas on actual things that they have seen. BUT nothing should be made for the purpose of worshipping it. God alone must be worshipped. |
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---M.P. on 7/15/06 |
Alan, although the original question was about statues of Saints, we, as usual, have gone off on a tangent and turned the question around so that we are discussing other things. However, getting back to the commandment I really do think that God is simply (but very seriously) saying YOU MUST WORSHIP NO-ONE AND NOTHING EXCEPT ME) I do not for one moment think that He disapproves of us making objects and having nice things in our homes (ornaments, photos, carvings, paintings, engravings etc.) |
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---M.P. on 7/15/06 |
MP ...# 3 I have to say that I find Lupe's thought that one can sin and not e aware that it is a sin, and be held accountable, a difficult doctrine to go along with. It would mean that those Christians who in the past had slaves, are condemned, because, as has now been revealed to us, slavery is sinful. |
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---alan8869_of_UK on 7/14/06 |
MP ...# 2 But the question here is not about model aircraft, or family photos, but about statues of Saints, and of Mary in particular. Clearly if they are worshipped that is contrary to the Commandment.
It seem to be basic Fundamentalist doctrine that RCs worship Mary, and so are hell-bound, however most RCs say they do not worship Mary, but, in effect, worship God through Mary & with her help.
Not quite the same.
Unnecessary, yes. But evil ...? |
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---alan8869_of_UK on 7/14/06 |
MP ...# 1 I have to admit I wavered, because of what Lupe said, and wondered whether I had been wrong in what I said originally. But I don't think the words can be taken as being grammatically literal, which would mean we can't make models of things.
So I fell back to the position in my last post! |
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---alan8869_of_UK on 7/14/06 |
Alan, I would imagine that that is exactly how it is meant to be interpreted. From your posting on 12th and your earlier one today I thought that was the way you felt too or have you now changed your mind on this? |
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---M.P. on 7/14/06 |
ff The instruction is there first, "not to make", so your explanation can't stand up, unless we interpret the words to mean something like this "You shall not make, for the purpose of worshipping it, any graven image ..." |
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---alan8869_of_UK on 7/14/06 |
2. We don't have to be legalistic but be guided by the Holy Spirit and convicted by Him if we are wrong in some of the things we see as right but or wrong on. That is why many Christians sin and don't even know they are. And when the subject of not going to heaven because we are sinners, sometimes we don't even know we have sinned until the Spirit convicts us and we see our faults and come to repentance. But many times we don't even know or feel we are sinning and we are. |
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---Lupe2618 on 7/14/06 |
Yes Alan, that was the purpose of the commands. Although many answer what about pictures and all sorts of answers, it is implanted in our hearts what is right and what is wrong. I don't think we should have to define everything. It is up to our own conscious to respond to what God is trying to tell us. I believe God's statement needs no definations, it clear. Man will always make his own judgement anyway to include things not there in Scripture. So it does not surprise me that many have excuses. |
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---Lupe2618 on 7/14/06 |
3. succeeding generations because the Lord demanded full and exclusive devotion. He is a jealous God (34:14; Deut. 4:24; 5:9). The worship of man made representations was nothing less than hatred of the true God. |
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---Lupe2618 on 7/14/06 |
2. with the worship of Yahweh. When Israel departef from the worship of the only one and true God, she plunged into religious confusion (Judges 17,18) verse 4-6, was the mode of fashion of worship appropriate to only one Lord forbids any attempt to represent or caricature Him by use of anything He has made. Total censure of artistic, expression was not the issue: the absolute censure of idolatry and false worship was the issue. Violations would seriously affect |
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---Lupe2618 on 7/14/06 |
ff, yes, we are also not to worship them. That is but one of the commands. I put down not to make them because many do have them and have excuses for them. Yes, He first tells us, that He is Lord, making it very clear He rules. He then goes on to say, "You shall have no other gods before me" Meaning "over against Me," a most appropriate expression in the light of the next few verses. All false gods stand in opposition to the true God, and the worship of them is incompatible |
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---Lupe2618 on 7/14/06 |
Lupe, would there be any point in God saying we must not worship them IF we were not to make them? The words 'thou shalt not bow down to them nor worship them' is totally obsolete if the commandment is not to make them. If God had meant 'don't make them in the first place' He would have said that. I have pictures of owls and butterflies (I prefer looking at the real thing) but no way am I sinning by having images of them, nor do I worship them - why would I want to? |
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---f.f. on 7/14/06 |
Lupe is quite right of course, but what do the words really mean? Taken literally, all children's model autos, planes, and girls dolls, and memorial statues to heros will have to be destroyed. Family and holiday photos should also, by the spirit of the law, if not in the letter, be destroyed, as these are modern equivalents of graven images. |
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---alan8869_of_UK on 7/14/06 |
Saints? why would you have statues of them? they were men not god. Saints are made by man and man are sinfull. Just because your priest said it's ok doesn't make it so. Frome what I've been told even crosses can become an idol.. |
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---Tina on 7/13/06 |
3. If there is no effort, then you could say, there is no Spirit in the life of the person are he would feel the conviction of the Spirit. We feel the convictions many times and don't respond right away but sooner rather then later we do. I just say, stop with the excuses and do what you must to follow Christ. Stop making excuses and ask God if He was wrong in what He said. And He will tell you, He is never wrong. |
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---Lupe2618 on 7/13/06 |
2. Yes, we are told, "nor worship them," but verse 4 states not to have them. Now we can give all kinds of excuses and say we don't worship them and that they make us feel great and that we feel more holie when we walk in church but we are told not to have them period. Its not how we feel but what God tells us. This is only one of many commands God gives us and of course we don't follow all of them but we have to try. If we don't try, then we don't care. We have to make an effort to follow Him. |
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---Lupe2618 on 7/13/06 |
2. Yes, we are told, "nor worship them," but verse 4 states not to have them. Now we can give all kinds of excuses and say we don't worship them and that they make us feel great and that we feel more holie when we walk in church but we are told not to have them period. Its not how we feel but what God tells us. This is only one of many commands God gives us and of course we don't follow all of them but we have to try. If we don't try, then we don't care. We have to make an effort to follow Him. |
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---Lupe2618 on 7/13/06 |
I have read on and on and many play with words and talk about mirrows and worshipping idols and so on. Excuses after excuses for all the things they hold at home and in churches. Exodus 20:4, says, "You shall not make for yourself a carved image-any likeness of anything that "is in heaven above," or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth." And of course He continues and adds, v. 5."You shall not bow down to them nor serve them. |
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---Lupe2618 on 7/13/06 |
alan8869, that was a beautiful post. There's no place (except church) where I feel closer to the Lord than standing on a shore looking out at sea. I even love thunderstorms because they remind me of His awesome power. ;) |
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---augusta on 7/13/06 |
I look at it this way. All these things of the world, statues, pictures, bunny rabbits and everything else is going to go up in one huge ball of flame. God did not send these things to remind us of Him, He sent us His Son and now His Holy Spirit. No image is going to remind me of this. |
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---Ryan on 7/13/06 |
If you think you need statues and/or pictures to help you get closer to the Lord then you have big problems. That is the work of the Holy Spirit in you. The Holy Spirit will draw you to the Lord Jesus. |
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---Helen_5378 on 7/12/06 |
All you who condemn those who find ststues, pictures useful, is there anywhere in what they have said that indicatres they worship them?
Do you find sacred or worship music helpful? Do you find silence, or being alone in God's created countryside, or watching the crashing waves, or looking at the sunset, takes you close to Him? Shame on you then! |
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---alan8869_of_UK on 7/12/06 |
Eve, how do you square this with YHVH's commandment to make images of the cherubim for the Ark? |
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---Jack on 6/24/06 |
Eve, did you know that a Christmas tree is a Christian symbol? Do you ever put one up? Did you know that a Christian church building is a Christian symbol? We could go wacky on this subject. You may be confusing artistry with idolotry. |
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---eleanor on 6/24/06 |
Read Commandment #2. Whether it be a staute or a cross or any other "christian" symbol, it goes against what Yahweh has commanded us to do for Him |
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---Eve on 6/23/06 |
So true, we walk by faith not by sight. The Spirit lives within us. But you are not worshipping yourself, when you look in the mirror, true? Just because someone has pictures of loved ones around does not constitute worship. I have the memory of my mother within me but I like having her picture around, too. Christmas comes whether I have a tree or a nativity scene or any other decoration, but it is nice to have around me. I don't think people are saying they NEED a statue or a picture, they just like it. |
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---eleanor on 6/23/06 |
Mackey why do catholics have statues, and what do you do when you spend time with them? |
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---bethie on 6/23/06 |
Eleanor - I have the Spirit of God living in me to help me to pray. He lives inside me because I believe that Jesus died on the Cross for my sins. I have no need of anything earthly to remind me of Jesus Christ -- His Spirit lives in me. We are commanded to walk by faith not by sight. |
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---Helen_5378 on 6/23/06 |
Where does any one who has a statue say that they are worshipping them? What I see is that the worship is to God. The statues, as pictures of family members, are reminders only. Some may even be decorations. So what? No one is worshipping them. Why does that misconception continue to be repeated?
Read carefully, for the only worship is to God, time in prayer to God, the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit. |
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---eleanor on 6/23/06 |
Just be consistent and get rid of photos and other depictions of your family, self, and loved ones, including your DL photo.
(Of course, consistency is not something that is typical of pop-evangelicals.) |
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---Jack on 6/23/06 |
Mackey, here's why:
Exd 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth: Exod 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, |
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---Donna9759 on 6/23/06 |
Perhaps you should try spending time with Jesus instead of statues. The only way to God the Father is through his son , Jesus Christ. If you try any other way, you will never get there! Moses, John the Baptist, the Apostle Paul, David the Psalmist, Elijah, etc. were all great saints, but I don't worship them...I worship the one who they serve...God, and the king of kings, Jesus Christ. |
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---bob on 6/23/06 |
Sometimes I sit where that particular statue may be which reminds me of Christ and His life compelling me to pray to God and reflect on Him at that moment. I have been in many different churches where windows have been designed to reflect a Saint's life or Jesus'. Sometimes I sit with photo albums and think about my friends and family & sometimes those, too, compel me to pray. In this crazy world, I think it is good to have such reminders. |
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---eleanor on 6/23/06 |
I have nativity scenes that are out each Christmas. My Baptist relative has hers out always, along with a collection of crosses. I also have a statue of Jesus carrying the cross. Each Christmas I look at the nativity scene and contemplate His birth andmore. Each time I pass by the cross I contemplate His death and more. Each time I pass by any statue(pertaining to heaven) I reflect on God and contemplate Him in my life. |
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---eleanor on 6/23/06 |
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