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Is There A PreTribulation Rapture

Which verses in the bible prove that there will NOT be a pre-tribulation rapture?

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no verses proving rapture aside from obvious term does not exist and Christ ONLY RETURNS ONCE at the LAST Trump

believing rapture lie given by mortal men who have a GROSS misunderstanding of BASIC Scripture and more importantly either ignore dismiss or REJECT 1Corin 15:50-52 that states ALL would be changed at the LAST Trump ....or mortal men LIE simply waiving off 1Corin 15, claiming there is some other Last Trump BEFORE final Last Trump they have been given knowledge of APART from Scripture

...of course the rapture has MANY followers HENCE the Camping worshipers of 5/21/11 they claim its a rapture and it is a pre-trib one at that ...so if you are a rapture believer then YOU MUST follow them right?
---Rhonda on 5/8/11


Goes to show how little knowledge you have of the Word of God.
---Mark_V. on 5/8/11

No, it's the word of Mark V that I have little knowledge of.
---David on 5/8/11


David, why do you have to resort to what you say? I mentioned this before to another SDA. People have to believe you, not Scripture.

"And worse yet, all those who you teach, those who have come to believe that you are a man of Truth, they too, will perish with you.
"


And you added because of him.
Goes to show how little knowledge you have of the Word of God. People are never going to hell because of someone else. They are already heading there. They choose of themselves to reject Christ. Another thing, when God wants to save someone there is nothing to stop Him. You have a God who is depending on man to do the right thing for God, but you are wrong, when He wants something done He gets it done.
---Mark_V. on 5/8/11


Dear Ignatius

Some Jesuits in responce to the protestant charge of the Pope being the antichrist taught the doctrine of futurism. Which stated the antichrist was a human who would come sometime in the future. This is one of the baisis of the Pretrib teaching.

What do the Orthodox teach about the Antichrist?

We at least agree that there is no Pretrib rapture. :)
---Samuel on 5/8/11


"You think I'm wrong? Time will tell. But if I am not wrong where will you be?
---mima on 5/6/11"

But you are wrong Mima. Scriptures does not even hint to a Pre-tribulation Rapture, but it is a man-made tradition. The first generation of Christians did NOT believed it, but rather taught a Second Coming of Christ, as Scriptures only do. What you are proposing is a Second and Third Coming of Christ. Heresy!

You are leading people astray with your man-made dogmas (Pre-Trib Rapture, the Sinner's Prayer, Sola Scriptura, etc).

You may have been preaching for years, but your ignorance of Scriptures/Church History is evident every time you post.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 5/7/11




Remember, mima, that the Bible experts of 2000 years ago had it worked out to the last comma what the Messiah would do when He came.

He came, He didn't follow their agenda, and they rejected Him with disastrous consequences, not the least were spiritual to themselves.
---Cluny on 5/6/11

Excellent point Cluny!
I'm always seeking new directions in which to attack false teachings, and you just gave me a new one.

Indeed, Christ is risen!
---David on 5/7/11


Fire is in reference to judgment (punishment). If they die, there is no punishment.
---Mark_V. on 5/5/11
"The wages of sin is death" Romans 6:23 Death means death, they die. The punishment for sin IS death.
"For behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven, and all the proud, yea, all that do wickedly, shall be stubble and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of Hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. ..and ye shall tread down the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of Hosts" Malachi 4: 1,3
---Gina7 on 5/7/11


Jesus will come the second time, following at least seven earth years, at the close of the tribulation era, known also as Daniels 70th week. ---michael_e on 5/5/11
Daniel's 70th week was fulfilled after the 69th week. All 70 weeks were in order: from 457 BC to 34 AD. The last week was from 27 AD to 34 AD. In the midst of the last week, Christ died, in 31 AD. Sacrifices cease in the midst of the 70th week (Dan 9:27) when Christ died on the cross. There is no logical reason to pluck this 70th week out from the order of the past and apply it to some non descript unknown time in the future. The 490 years (70 "weeks") were alloted to the Jews and they ended in 34 AD
---Gina7 on 5/7/11


You think I'm wrong? Time will tell. But if I am not wrong where will you be?
---mima on 5/6/11

Mima
Once again, you are surrounded with overwhelming facts, and you choose to ignore them.
And worse yet, all those who you teach, those who have come to believe that you are a man of Truth, they too, will perish with you.
Why?
Because they will need to buy food for their families, and they will not recognize the Mark, nor will they have a reason not to receive the Mark of the Beast, all because of what they have learned from you.

If I were you, I would not want to stand before God, responsible for their deaths.
---David on 5/7/11


//"I pray You do NOT take them out of the world, but keep them safe from the evil one."//
Who is them? Rom.15:8

//Then why did St. Paul say, "We preach Christ crucified"?//
Because Paul preached the the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus.
You know If He is sitting at the right hand of the Father, He is not hanging on the Cross.

One more time, do you have anything to back this up?
//The early commentary on 1 Thess. show that we descend//
What "commentary" BCV please
---michael_e on 5/7/11




When the Israelites were in Egypt the wrath of GOD fell around them. They were still persecuted and had problems.

In the early Christian centuries and in the Middle ages millions of Christians were killed for their faith.

So why should we think we are better then they? In India today Christians are killed by Hindu's for being Christians they do not care what denomination. Chinese Christians wondered why they had not been raptured when the Communists begain to murder them. So why are we supposed to have it easy?
---Samuel on 5/7/11


\\You have a lot of erroneous thoughts with very little scripture.
BCV Please\\

Juest the words of Jesus.

"I pray You do NOT take them out of the world, but keep them safe from the evil one."

You believe, "Don't listen to Jesus! You take us out of this world!"

\\Christ is risen and not still hanging on a Cross.\\

Then why did St. Paul say, "We preach Christ crucified"?
---Cluny on 5/6/11


TRIBULATION is for Believers ONLY! ALL believers go through Tribulation(OT/NT). The words is derived from Tribul. A Sled used to separate the Wheat from the Chaff. Testing Faith. (i.e. Ruth)

WRATH is for the wicked.

THE GREAT COMMISSION...

1)Do we witness until the coming of Christ?

OR...
2) Do we witness until 7 years before the coming of Christ?

2nd. QUESTION

If there is NO Holy Spirit during this Tribulation... THEN how do people get saved?

Since the Bible is merely a Book without the HS.

3rd QUESTION...

Christ said (ref:2nd coming) he would be seen by all nations.

DID HE LIE?
---John on 5/6/11


//The early commentary on 1 Thess. show that we descend
What "commentary" BCV please//

_luny do you have a BCV for this comment you made.

//Those of you who are waiting for a pre-trib rapture will be among the first to fall down and worship Antichrist//
You have a lot of erroneous thoughts with very little scripture.
BCV Please

Christ is risen and not still hanging on a Cross.
---michael_e on 5/6/11


\\ But if I am not wrong where will you be?\\

But you ARE wrong, mima.

Nevertheless, let me ask: Do you think our salvation depends on our eschatology?

Remember, mima, that the Bible experts of 2000 years ago had it worked out to the last comma what the Messiah would do when He came.

He came, He didn't follow their agenda, and they rejected Him with disastrous consequences, not the least were spiritual to themselves.

Beware lest you make the same mistake.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/6/11


michae_3 and mima, please show me a dictionary that defines "descend" as "making a u turn."

To say that 1 Thess means a pre-trib rapture is to read INTO the passage.

Those of you who are waiting for a pre-trib rapture will be among the first to fall down and worship Antichrist.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/6/11


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//Why do you think CHRIST makes a U-turn?//
To escort us into Glory with Him. we need the escort not Him.

//The early commentary on 1 Thess. show that we descend//
What "commentary" BCV please
---michael_e on 5/6/11


The "church" will be in heaven for seven years(the period of time of tribulation) before it returns to Earth with the Lord Jesus Christ. At which time he will touch down and set up his millennial kingdom. You think I'm wrong? Time will tell. But if I am not wrong where will you be?
---mima on 5/6/11


Howdy Mark I do not think we are following each other around we just like some of the same topics. I am glad that both you and Cluny agree with me on this topic that there is no secret rapture.

On the punishment. Well on this blog let us agree to disagre. :)

CHRIST is risen indeed.

Let us die to self each day to exalt JESUS.
---Samuel on 5/6/11


\\Why would you think we would make a u turn?\\

The real question is: Why do you think CHRIST makes a U-turn?

"Descend" means "to go from up to down". It does NOT mean "to make a u-turn."

The early commentary on 1 Thess. show that we descend with the Lord to escort Him down to earth when He comes as judge.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/6/11


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Jesus will come in the air, catch up the Church from the earth, and then return to heaven with the Church. Why would you think we would make a u turn? Paul gives a description of the rapture in Thessalonians and Corinthians.
Peter's ministry had the Lord's return in view, to reign in Jerusalem over Israel and the nations.
Paul writes of the Lord's return, but with a difference. To Paul it was revealed that the dispensation of grace would be brought to a close by the coming of Christ to catch away the members of His body, before His wrath and His return to earth to reign. That this was part of the "mystery" concerning the body, which had been revealed to him by the glorified Lord, is clear from his own words:
---michael_e on 5/6/11


MarkV, you must be a u-turn advocate.
---michael_e on 5/6/11


Michael, don't you realize you are suggesting Two Second Coming? No there is only one Second Coming. There is no seven years anywhere in Scripture after His Coming.
---Mark_V. on 5/5/11


Jesus will return at some unknown time in the rapture. Paul says it is a moment in time when all believers (the Church) will meet Jesus in the air: (1 Thess. 4:16-17) Jesus will come the second time, following at least seven earth years, at the close of the tribulation era, known also as Daniels 70th week. This time He will come all the way to the planet, and every eye will behold Him. There will be absolutely no doubt about this re-entry and landing: (Rev. 19:11-15).
---michael_e on 5/5/11


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Rom 15:8 Lets you know who the Lord is dealing with in his earthly ministry Matt 13:30.and it is not the Church the body of Christ.
---michael_e on 5/5/11


Samuel, not that I'm following you around but by going over all the answers I ran into yours again. I agree there is no pre-trib. But you gave a different answer for the parable of the tares and the wheat, you said they die, an no where does it say they die, but that they are burning. Jesus spoke that parable to the multitudes which they did not understand and neither did the disciples, so when He went into the house, He told the answer to the parable in (v.36-43).
"and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
Fire is in reference to judgment (punishment). If they die, there is no punishment.
---Mark_V. on 5/5/11


The Bible opposes the pretrib rapture in Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

At the second coming the wicked die then we ascend to heaven like this parable predicts.

Rom 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises [made] unto the fathers:

This does not seem to be about any coming of JESUS.
---Samuel on 5/5/11


after we rise to meet the Lord in the air, we will go to heaven and stay 7 yrs. ---michael_e on 5/3/11
BOOK CHAPTER AND VERSE
---francis on 5/5/11


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Matthew 13--Rom 15:8
---michael_e on 5/3/11


after we rise to meet the Lord in the air, we will go to heaven and stay 7 yrs. After that period, Christ comes down to earth, to defeat the Antichrist, and cleanse the temple. In a post-trib rapture, we would rise in the air, meet the Lord, then do a 180-deg U-turn and come back down to earth. Rev. 1:7 says Christ will appear out of the clouds and come down to earth. Zech. 14:4 says His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives. If He's already coming our way, why would we need to be caught up to meet Him?
---michael_e on 5/3/11


1 Corinthians 15:51-54 has the answer:

no pre-tribulation rapture.

1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery, We shall not all sleep, but we shall ALL...ALL... ALL..be changed,
(no two raptures before tribulation and another after)

1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP...AT THE LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.



Only in the Feast of Trumpets... the trumpets are actually sounded. also only feast that no man knows the day or the hour... until right up to it!! The barley must be ready for harvest together with first sighting of moon for this month.
Well this the short answer!
---Abraham on 5/3/11


I see some compare the second coming to Noah.

But the last time GOD delivered his people was in the Exodus. There the people of Israel were still in the land and plagues fell around them but they were always forwarned.

This is what we are looking for. Not to come back to earth but to have our Exodus and go home with JESUS.

Jhn 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Who hears his voice?
---Samuel on 5/3/11


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Matthew 24:29-31
---connie on 5/3/11


Epharaem the Syrian said, in 373 AD, "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."
---michael_e on 5/3/11
Daniel 12:1 says and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,


Sounds like MID TRIB.
the rapture and second coming occurs AT THE SAME TIME and occurs DURING the tribulation. SO POST or MOD trib is the answer.
---francis on 5/3/11


This is not an authentic quote from St. Ephraim the Syrian.

In any case, the canon of faith is "whatever has been believed at all times in all places by all the faithful," not "whatever has been believed somewhere, sometime, by somebody."

Jesus's parable of the Wheat and Tares in Matthew 13 makes it plain that the wheat is NOT gathered a week before the harvest--or 1007 days before the harvest for those of you who believe in a literal earthly millennium.
---Cluny on 5/3/11


One widely circulated attack against the pre-trib rapture(cathing up) is the notion that a girl named Margaret MacDonald started this theological view in 1830. The claim is made that MacDonald received a demonic vision, passed it on to John Darby, who made it popular. Pre-trib scholars have discovered several rapture writings that predate Margaret MacDonald. Not even counting our Apostle Paul, the first to write about it.
Epharaem the Syrian said, in 373 AD, "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."
---michael_e on 5/3/11


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Dear Vid the passages wicked are gathered and burned Righteous are gathered into heaven at the same time.

Good point Eloy beside we do not know if we will be alive tomorrow so we need to be ready to die today.
---Samuel on 5/2/11


Rev.6 begins GOD'S wrath, not tribulation. Those souls killed were from the tribulation because you can STILL be saved at that time but you must shed blood by someone other than yourself. The sea of glass around GOD'S throne are those saved (glass is symbolic of souls) before HIS wrath. Where did GOD say we're not to see tribulation? The flood lifted the ARK (JESUS) BEFORE NOAH WENT INSIDE! We were already there before these souls! Tribulation started long ago. It do not have to begin in the U.S.A. Nor this time period. Remember....1 day to GOD is as a thousand years!
---Vld on 5/1/11


jacqueline, so says the smelly one.
---Eloy on 5/1/11


This place stinks of arrogance
---jacqueline on 5/1/11


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People always wanting to know, "When is he coming? Pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib?" The answer is, "Be you all ready always and at all times, for in the day that you think not and say within yourselves 'The Lord delays his coming,' and so you begin to neglect so great a salvation, and begin to sin along with the sinners: then The Lord will come in a day when you are not looking for, and in an hour you are not aware of. Truly, truly i say to you, as evil and tribulation was in the day of Noah, and evil and tribulation in the cities of Sodom and Amorrah, so too will evil and tribulation be when the Lord comes in the clouds to rapture up his people."
---Eloy on 5/1/11


To John: re. Pretribulation heresay. this is true but what do you think it mean ,"to be saved)? It means "to excape". Excape what? Something bad. Like what? The TIME OF TESTING of the inhabitants of this world! This "time of trouble" is not for christians! Since these times are like it was during Noah's, HE was saved During the flooding! LOT HAD TO BE REMOVED BEFORE THE ANGELS COULD DESTROY U NO WHAT! FULL TRIBULATION CANNOT BEGIN 'till All the Saved be taken out, so yes we will be here AT THE BEGINING but not after. GOD will not destroy HIS people with the wicked.
---Vld on 5/1/11


Remember....the LAST DAY could also be refering to THE LAST DAY OF YOUR LIFE!
---Vld on 5/1/11


PRE-TRIB RAPTURE IS A HERESY!!!

It was started (19th century) by a Witch named Margaret McDonald(Google it)passed to John Darby then to John Scoffield who brought it to America.

TRIBULATION IS FOR BELIEVERS! WRATH IS FOR THE WICKED! All believers have gone through tribulation. Why would G-d give "YOU" a pass??? It comes from the word Tribul. A sled use to seperate the Wheat from the Chaff. A testing of faith.

NOW HEAR WHAT JESUS SAID...

MATT 24:29-31.."AFTER the tribulation"
JOHN 17:15 "Do NOT take them out of the world..
JOHN 6:39-40,44,54 "On the LAST day"
JOHN 11:24 "on the LAST day"
JOHN 12:48 "on the LAST day"
DAN 12:1-3

CASE CLOSED!!!
---John on 5/1/11


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TAKING DANIEL !2
Daniel 12:1there shall be a time of trouble..,
Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.

AND
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

WE KNOW THAT THERE IS NO PRETRIBULATION RAPTURE, BECAUSE THE TIME OF TROUBLE OCCURS BEFORE THE RESURRECTION, AND THE RESURRECTION AND RAPTURE OCCUR ON THE SAME DAY.
---framcis on 5/1/11


I would hope that by 2011 most christians would see the flaw in the 7 year tribulation doctrine.
1: there is NO BIBLE VERSE that puts the word TRIBULATION or TROUBLE and 7 years together in any way form or fashion.

SECOND: Jesus said this:Mark 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

If you believe that it would be a 7 year trbulation and God cuts it short, how short does he cut it? 6 years 5 years 4 years?
---FRANCIS on 5/1/11


The Second Coming is the Rapture.

Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity,
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

The wicked are gathered at the same time as the righteous.

No verse teaches a secret coming. It is fashioned together from conjecture. It is based on Jesuit teaching they did not come up with it.
---Samuel on 5/1/11


maybe the question should be which verses prove the man-made theory of a rapture fairy tale?

Gods people have ALWAYS been protected during Gods wrath all of OT provides examples ...the flood and passover are just 2 of many examples

Spiritual Israel will be protected by POWER of Christ on earth

Christ does not return to collect His followers then return again to RULE earth in Gods Kingdom in Jerusalem

...True Christians will go through the tribulation like all other people except they will be PROTECTED from His Wrath otherwise 1Corin 15 would be a lie ...it is WHY it is a mystery to those without understanding of The Father in Heavens plan for mankind
---Rhonda on 5/1/11


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REVELATION 12:13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, Who are these arrayed in white robes,and were did they come from?
REVELATION 12:14 And he said to him,Sir you know,So he said to me, These are ones who CAME OUT of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made white in the blood of the lamb.
---RICHARDC on 5/1/11


2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 says that the destruction of the wicked and the giving of rest to Christian believers will both occur at the one event of the coming of Christ. This is undoubtably a second coming passage, and as it talks about the tribulation on the wicked (thlipsis), it is a post-tribulation rapture verse.
---mark273 on 4/30/11


there is no evidence of the rapture is scripture.Matt. 24 states in the times of noah the wicked were swept away.the same when christ returns.we will be here,then raised to the clouds and the wicked will be swept away
---nathan on 3/4/08


There are no verses that prove that there will not be a pre-trib rapture. If you study and rightly divide the word, you will see that the rapture will happen before the great tribulation.

Many false religions have started by thinking the Christian will go through the trib or part of the trib. They stockpile food and stuff to get them through the trib.

Moderator - Prior to the 1830's, 100% of Christians didn't believe in the PreTribulation Rapture. The PreTribulation Ratpure theory was taught first by some Jesuit Priests.
---Rev_Herb on 3/4/08


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Shari if you are a NT Christian you were Saved in the Age of Grace and don't have to endure because the Holy Spirit lives in you. You are part of the Church.
In Matt 24 Jesus was talking about the signs of His Second Coming not the Rapture.
The people that get Saved in the Tribulation will have to endure to the end.
We are the Bride not the Remnant.
---Elder on 7/21/06


The apostle Paul made it clear it was at the seventh, or last trump. The temptation that comes during the tribulation is not the wrath of God. The Lord said we must endure to the end. A pre-tribulation rapture makes enduring unneccessary as does the name it and claim it prosperity doctrines. It also voids out not being able to buy or sell. There are plenty of scriptures for those who love Jesus enough to go through hell on earth.
---Shari on 7/20/06


Couldn't the Great Tribulation, at least in the beginning, be caused by Satan instead of the wrath of God? The wrath of God does fall but, I think, not until the antichrist sets himself up to be worshipped. We are told to be watchful. Jesus tells us in Matt 24:15 to flee when we see "the abomination of desolation spoken by Daniel the prophet, stand in the Holy place (whoso readeth let him understand)". A pre-trib rapture would be GREAT, but I'm not counting on it.
---Donna2277 on 7/20/06


Jesus was speaking about his second coming which is after the rapture... people will be saved during the tribulation period. He was asked when he will establish his kingdom, not when will he rapture his elect. One taken and one left... One taken in judgement and the other left to enter the kingdom. The rapture will be prior to the establishment of the kingdom.
---tofurabby on 7/19/06


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Does anyone understand/know where the Great Tribulation starts in the Book of Revelation? When you find this out it will make the Rapture clearer. So where do you think it starts?
---Elder on 7/19/06


If you beleive in a pre-trib. rapture what you going to do with the parable of the wheat and tares? Jesus said let the wheat and tares grow together. Jesus said he would send his angels at the end to seperate them. Jesus said the Son of Man sowed the field.
---Truth on 7/19/06


God will rapture out the "church in Philadelphia" leaving the "church of the Laodiceans" to endure the trublulation. Right now, I believe these two church ages are blended together.

Rev. 3:10 "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."
---tofurabby on 7/19/06


Why would God lead Lot and his family OUT of the city before destroying Sodom and Gomorrah? Why would God secure Noah and his family inside the Ark BEFORE the flood? And then leave the church on the earth to suffer during the great tribulation? That is not logical, nor does it reflect God's great love and compassion towards us. He WILL remove His church BEFORE He pours out His wrath upon the earth. It is the only thing that makes sense.
---Crystal on 7/19/06


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Genesis 1:1Revelation 22:21, but especially Matthew 13.
---Jack on 7/18/06


Linda--Good point.
---Jack on 6/27/06


I do believe that the rapture is pre-tribulation because the bible says in 1Thessalonians 1:10, 5:9 that we are not appointed to the wrath to come, but delivered from it. Saying would be God protecting the saints during the trib. opposes the word in Revelation 13:7.
We are going to face hardships here before the rapture though.
---Rickey on 6/27/06


I read Rev. chapter 6 again and see no mention of a church there.

Even though the churches mentioned in Rev. 1-3 existed and are no longer they can be concidered different churches though our time. We are not living in the Laodicen church age. (Luke warm)

Moderator - Didn't you mean to say WE ARE living in the Laodicea church age? Read Revelation 6:9-11 - these are existing Christians. Revelation 7:4-8 are new Christians during the Tribulation.
---Rev_Herb on 6/26/06


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Comparing the Bible to world events instead of comparing spiritual things with spiritual will get you into a lot of trouble.
---Linda6563 on 6/26/06


"Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh" (Matthew 24:44). the only time believers would not be expecting his return would be before the tribulation. Epharaem the Syrian said in 373 AD, Pseudo-Ephraem (c. 374-627) "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."
---tofurabby on 6/26/06


Mods: The time is correct, c. 1830 for the pre trib rapture teachings, but it was JN Darby who made it popular. He was Scottish.

During that time frame in upper NY, the 2nd Great Awakening ended, and Joseph Smith suddenly learned "Reformed Egyptian" to translate the gold plates he found burried. In Pen Yan, NY, the Fox sisters began spiritualism.

In 1844 Wm. Miller made an appointment for Jesus to come to earth. EGWhite was a follower of Miller

Moderator - Darby made it popular, but the Jesuits invented the theory. Yes, all kinds of false teachers and false doctrines came out in the 1800's.
---John_T on 6/26/06


Did you know that ALL SEVEN CHURCHES in Asia Minor were living, thriving ORTHODOX Churches until 1922 when the League of Nations, under the treaty of Lausanne, arranged a population exchange, forcing all Christians in Asia Minor (except in Istanbul) into Greece and all Moslems in Greece into Turkey?
---Jack on 6/26/06


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Tofurabby, the word "descend" means to go from up to down. It does NOT mean to do a u-turn in mid-air.

Jesus DESCENDS from heaven all the way to earth. Living and departed believers are "caught up" to meet him as He DESCENDS and THEY are the ones who do a u-turn in mid-air and escort Him back to earth.
---Jack on 6/26/06


mima I also believe that way. Here's why.

I see in the 10 Plagues a type of judgment against Egypt of which the judgment of nations by God is the antitype. Just as the blood of the lamb (prefiguring Christ) protected the believers so also will the wrath of God came against all ungldliness, but not God's people.

I DO NOT try to defend what I believe; it is a NON-ESSENTIAL.

Yet, I also say Be ready: Christ can return before the period in this sentence.
---John_T on 6/26/06


I was under the impression that Jesus would come to earth to reign post-trib. If that is true and the rapture is also post-trib, then why would we be caught up to meet him in the air? Seems to me that during the rapture he is not coming all the way down to rule, but meeting us half way and taking us out, then returning to rule later.

Moderator - If the Great Tribulation is 7 years, then the Rapture could occur anywhere during that period of time. IE at the beginning, middle or toward the end according to various theories. I believe it is toward the middle, however am not dogmatic about it.
---tofurabby on 6/26/06


Moderator,

As time progress we have a better understanding to the bible as we compare it to world events. Before the computer the mark of the beast made no sense. Rev. Chapter 4 is a picture of the rapture, the church is never mentioned after that. You don't see the church going through the tribulation.

Moderator - Chapter 2-3 is the church age. All of those specific churches closed their doors 1,500+ years ago. Using that logic, then the rapture happened then. I see the church mentioned through Chapter 6, then it seems to not be mentioned.
---Rev_Herb on 6/26/06


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After spending 30 years believing in the a pre-tribulation rapture I find myself in a precarious situation. My studies during the last year on this subject has slowly begin to pull me toward a believe in a mid- tribulation rapture. After chapter 4 in Revelation the church is never mentioned again. And it is in chapter 4 that John is told to "come up here". If one can except that John is a representative of Christ's church is not very hard to accept that this is the rapture
---mima on 6/26/06


1Thessalonians 1:10,4:14-17; 1Corinthians 15:51-58; 2Corinthians 5:10 all talk about a POST-tribulation rapture, which was the universal teaching of Christendom before 1830 and Margaret MacDonald of Port Glasgow, Scotland. It was popularized by Darby and C. I. Schofield (whose wife divorced on him grounds of abandonment).

The only source I've seen saying a pre-trib rapture was cooked up by Jebs has been Jack Chick, who is not a trustworthy source for church and doctrinal history.
---Jack on 6/26/06


The last trump in Ehpesians 5 agrees with the seventh trumpet sounding in Revelation and the rapture taking place after the tribulation. Matthew 25:29-31 makes it clear as well. Those who insist on a pre-tribulation rapture will probably not be prepared and lose what faith they have when the devil comes at them and they are surprised to find they are still here and have to endure unto the end. A pre-tribulation rapture does not agree with Revelation 3 where Jesus said "he that overcometh"...
---Shari on 6/26/06


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