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Jesus Comes As A Thief

The bible speaks of Jesus coming 'as a thief in the night' which presumably means man will be taken by surprise. It also speaks of Him coming 'with the sound of trumpet and every eye shall see Him'. What are these 2 events and what happens inbetween them?

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 ---emg on 7/3/06
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Google "Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty" and "Thomas Ice (Bloopers)" if you are trusting pretrib rapture "scholars." Jon
---Jon on 12/2/09


If you want to know about the Heresy of Pretrib Rapture. You SIMPLY need to Google Margaret Mac Donald. The Witch and Tarot Card occultist that started it about 130 yrs ago. Then you can Google John Darby the paster that visited The seance and fill his church up with this cult. Then you Google John Scofield who brought it into America in the 20th century. NOTE this heresy never existed before 130yrs ago!
NOW READ WHAT CHRIST SAID..MATT 24:29-31 JOHN 6:39-54 11:24, 12:48, 17:15 NEED MORE?
---PASTOR_JIM on 11/10/09


Jon. You are correct about Pseudo_Ephraem. In reality, it was not Saint Ephraim, but Pseudo Ephraem, and a deeper look will reveal that whoever this man was never taught a Pre-Trib Rapture. Your article you posted is one of many refutation against Pre-Trib claims.

In reality, the Pre-Trib was not taught by any Christian before the 18th century. It has never been taught by the many Holy Fathers of the Holy Church (such as Saint Augustine, Saint John Chrysostom, Saint Basil, Saint Gregory of Nyssa, etc). It has no solid foundation in Holy Scripture, and has never been part of the Tradition of Eastern Orthodoxy. It is simply a fabrication of some Protestants imagination.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 11/8/09


Re MacDonald, unfortunately the real facts about her (which were common knowledge throughout the 1800s) have lately been banned or twisted by those who make big bucks off pretrib. Google "X-Raying Margaret," "Pretrib Rapture Diehards," "Thomas Ice (Bloopers)," and "Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty"! Jon
---Jon on 11/6/09


The present rapture debate seems to boil down to Dave (sterling research) MacPherson vs. Tommy (slop & chop) Ice. Agree?
---Jon on 10/30/09




Grant didn't even get the ancient writer's name right! According to Dr. Alexander (the real scholar Grant leaned on) it was Pseudo_Ephraem and not Ephraim the Syrian! Google "Deceiving and Being Deceived" by D.M. to see the real facts!
---Jon on 10/19/09


Re Grant Jeffrey, you really should Google "Wily Jeffrey" and also "Deceiving and Being Deceived" by D.M. Nuff sed!
---Jon on 10/17/09


emg: These "two" events are the same event. Nothing happens in between them.
---jerry6593 on 10/14/09


1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power,


2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Notice the Rapture and the destruction happen at the same time.
---Samuel on 10/13/09


The claim that pretrib was taught before 1830 by Pseudo-Ephraem and Morgan Edwards is roundly, soundly, and devastatingly exposed and refuted by MacPherson's Google article "Deceiving and Being Deceived."
---Jon on 10/12/09




Yeah Emg
you are right, both events are scriptural

he will appear suddenly coming with the sound/blast of a trumpet will make it more more sudden.
---Patience on 7/6/09


1 Thessalonians 5

2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3For when they shall say, Peace and safety, then sudden destruction cometh upon them , as travail upon a woman with child, and they shall not escape.

The DAY OF THE LORD, is the Day of HIS WRATH.

This is concerning the time anti-christ will make a false PEACE and covenant of Hell with Israel. Israel, the WOMAN, will be chasened by God for making this covenant.

The CHURCH will not be here a that time. anit-christ is not making a covenant with the Church. Impossible. The Church is not the WOMAN here. For IN CHRIST we are not called to GOD's WRATH, but salvation IN CHRIST.
---kathr4453 on 7/6/09


The coming of CHRIST is at a time we do not know. So no matter how many plagues or wrath fall we do not know when it will happen. But for the majority of people it will be unexpected since they do not beleive or want him to come.

Israle was GOD chosen people yet they still were in Egypt during the falling of the plagues. The idea that Christians are so much better then others that we do not have to deal with persecution is false. The Wrath of GOD will not fall on the church. But we will face persecution while we are still here during the time.

The resurrection is at the second coming.
---Samuel on 7/6/09


It is the same event:Jesus second coming.
Your first quote refers to the event as being a surprise while the second quote refers to the fact that it will be a visible event.
The element of surprise does not make it a secret event as so many claim it will be.
---Pierre on 7/5/09


Those who have deliberately and deviously muddied up the true origin of the pretrib rapture are finally revealed, by name, in "Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty" on the "Powered by Christ Ministries" site. Jon
---Jon on 7/5/09


It's a metaphor. Jesus will come 'as a thief in the night' and 'with the sound of trumpet and every eye shall see Him'...It simply means he will come quietly...and unknown. But it's hard not to know him because he's so darn obvious...and his loud declaration of who he is and what he knows doesn't help anybody.

"Every eye shall see Him" We have to remember that every eye during night, a time of sleep will see Him. Jesus will awaken us from our deep slumber, and bring us to the truth.
---Katherine on 6/10/09


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Dr.Rich-what is the point of going through the trib. if we have been sealed,which I believe we have,til the day of redemption,i.e.rapture.The 144,000 are the ones that bring the message during the trib. not the church.God hath not appointed us to wrath,i.e.the tribulation,but to obtain salvation,i.e.deliverence,by our Lord Jesus Christ.
---Tommy on 1/22/08


How can the coming in the clouds AFTER all of the trumpets, bowls of wrath, plagues and such, be the same event at 'coming like a thief' as in the days of Noah? Honestly now, of course they can't! Coming like a thief is ONLY for those in Matt. 24 - yes - the 144,000! They (few in Rev.3:4 and all of Philadellphia) go thru the tribulation but it is NOT a test for them because they are now sealed/sanctified. They are the 'holy people' who bring truth to the world/bride (Multitude in Rev. 7:9-14)
---Dr._Rich on 1/21/08


1Thes.5:the whole Ch.The Bride WILL NOT Suffer The Wrath!
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety, then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child, and THEY shall not escape.
4 BUT YE, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
---Duane_M on 1/21/08


If you keep reading that Chap. you will see That Day Does'nt come upon THOSE who are watching for him(The RAPTURE Bride)...

When Every Eye Shall see him coming in All his Glory is when we return after the marriage Supper(7yrs.) And Darkness has covered the Earth for 3 days. You know how a Full Moon shine in the darkness? When he comes it will be like the Sun Shining at night, You Can't miss that.

A Hell on Earth & A Marriage Party in Heaven is what's going on in between!
YLBD
---Duane_M on 1/21/08


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How is every eye going to see Jesus come back when people are going to be dead
---jennifer_robinson on 1/21/08


The first relates to His coming, the second refers to the time when He is revealed.
---duke on 12/16/07


These two events are actually one event together. When Jesus comes as a theif He comes unexpectadly but when he comes there is the sound of a trumpet and every eye will see Him. Jesus comes one time to take the saints to heaven. He dosnt come in a secret rapture and then earth remains for 7 more years and then He comes again where the trumpet sounds and every eye will see Him.

One second coming. No rapture. No 7 year tribulation. It cant be found in scripture.
---eric on 10/17/07


Jesus coming as a thief is to the sinner."But you all brothers are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. All you are all the sons of light, and the sons of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness." I Thess. 5:4,5. Where all will look upon him whom they pierced speaks of Christ's 2nd coming. Both the Lord coming as lightning upon the wicked, and where all will see him coming, are the same occurence of the 2nd coming of the Lord. Please read Mat. 24:3-51.
---Eloy on 10/3/06


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...Still Jesus will be preached to the whole world. Just before the second comming, about seven years after the rapture, all remaining Christians will be killed. then they do join us in heaven while the 'bad guys' are Still on earth. Then they see the signs of Jesus' coming in the sky, they beome afraid and then demons summon them for the battle of Armageddon. The Lord returns with a host of angels AND the saints already in heaven and He destroys the remaining inhabitants of earth.
---Okebaram on 10/3/06


There is no disagreement between being surprised to see someone, and being able to see that person. There ins't enough space to begin to quote scriptures to support what I'm going to say for those who disagree, but I hope emg will discern the approval of the Spirit. The rapture happens before the tribulation. Among those left behind, during the tribulation, there will be many that will become saved although they will face tremendous persecution. Cont'd...
---Okebaram on 10/3/06


regarding Matt. 24:20 "But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:" The entire chapter is speaking of the tribulation time post rapture. Many will be saved during that time. Hence the need for the 144000 "first fruits" unto God. How can the 144000 be "first fruits" anyway, unless the saved are raptured out, and they are the first fruits of the next era.(rev.14:4)
---tofurabby on 10/3/06


#10 There is nothing new under the sun, and what you read about the end times have already happened, but will be quit a bit worse than anything in history.

Praying that you and yours have peace of mind, joy of spirit, good health, and many friends to share them with during these end times.
---Steveng on 10/2/06


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#9 Besides, it is written that when the time is come, when the end of time draws near that we pray that our flight may not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath; for then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall. So, why would God warn us to pray that our flight not be on the Sabbath if there are no Christians to take heed?
---Steveng on 10/2/06


#8 To truly prepare for the coming tribulation, today's Christian must put all his or her heart and soul into knowing God. To lay a strong foundation into this relationship is to get to know the person. The Old Testament shows us who God is and how he works. The Old Testament is the foundation for the New Testament. Everything in the New Testament is based upon the Old Testament. The more you read, the closer you are to God.
---Steveng on 10/2/06


#7 Man created the tribulation period by our thoughts and our actions.

Man's, and woman's, heart is continually evil and, as we come closer to the end, the heart will get colder and colder. One of the Gifts of God is self-control and every little event that occurs in a person's life chips away at his self-control. It's getting more and more difficult to apply self-control which widens the chasm between God and man. Just take a very good look at the world around you.
---Steveng on 10/2/06


#6 Some Chritians say that the pre-trib rapture will protect them from the wrath to come, but why would God take up the dead, too? The dead won't feel anything during the tribulation. The mark of God on our foreheads will protect us from the terrible things that will happen before the second coming of Jesus.

All the verses pre-trib Christians claim that there is a rapture can be pertained to any of the rapture theories. pre, mid and post.
---Seveng on 10/2/06


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#5 Did any of the Godly people in history get raptured? Did Noah from the flood? Did Lot from Sodom? Did David and his friends from the fiery furnace? The prophets, the aposles, or even Jesus get raptured from Herods baby killing? We should take the example of what will happen from the Israelites when they painted the blood of a clean lamb on their door jams the same that we will paint the blood of Jesus on our hearts for protection.
---Steveng on 10/2/06


#4 So, let's reason this out. Are there two judgments? If there was a pre-trib rapture that means judgment has been served. The way the pre-trib people think is that the "good" people will be raptured and the bad people will stay on earth. It sounds like a judgment to me. Isn't the Judgment at the end of the tribulation where the wheat AND the weeds will be harvested?
There is nothing new under the sun. Could God have easily raptured Noah?
---Steveng on 10/2/06


#3 The rapture debate divides Christians. It's a frivolous debate. Christians should spend their time serving others. Bringing the light of God's Word to the dark corners of peoples souls. This rapture debate takes time away from what really matter -- feeding the poor, quenching their thirst, clothing them, comforting them, looking after them when they are sick, visit them in prisons.
---Steveng on 10/2/06


#2 Why are today's Christians so vain to think that they are any different than any other persecuted Christian in the history of man and to think that they will escape the tribulation of the end times. We are all in this together both the dead and the living. God didn't rapture Noah from the floods, but he provided an escape. Neither did He provide an escape for the Prophets, the Apostles, nor the Israelites in Egypt during the plagues.
---Steveng on 10/2/06


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Ramon: #1 By taking verses out of context, I could make you believe in anything your hardened heart wants to believe. The JWs believe there is no hell because they dont want to think of themselves as going there. All other religions are the same way. The same with the pretrib theory. Many Christians believe that they wont go through the tribulation because they don't want to think of themselves as going through it.
---Steveng on 10/2/06


The following refutation has been suggested.
Epharaem the Syrian said, in 373 AD....However, the date itself is speculative and scholars are unsure of when this document was written,374 or 627 AD. There is a lot of unsureness of the document and its author.
BUT Regardless of when the statement took place the idea that NOBODY prior to M Macdonald or Darby(1880)ever suggested a pre-trib rapture.
Don't count on getting the $$$ they offered.
CR
---charlie on 10/2/06


Cont.. Question 3. "What is the 1000 year period that is also spoken of? Would you give me bible references please?"

This is the reign of Christ and the elect on earth after Satan is bound. (Rev.5:10>Rev.20:2-5)

The fact that the reign is on earth is further documented in (Rev.20:9)
---josef on 7/14/06


Cont.. seducing spirits & doctrines of devils (1Tim.4:1) which opens the minds of the simple, easily seduced & foolish to deception. (Mat24:4,5,11) And because of false teaching & a refusal of some to hear the truth during these last days (2Tim.4:3,4>2Thes.2:10) both declarations and/or hearkening to the truth concerning the end times will be scarce & the result will be departure from truth, a love that grows cold, & a false sense of complacency. (Cont..)
---josef on 7/14/06


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Question? 1. "If this is all one event what then happens to all those that Jesus does NOT take?"
Answer. After the first resurrection (Rev.19:21) After the second resurrection (Zec.14:12). Related examples of the when of their mortal destruction was given in the prior post.
2"What is this 7 year period that people speak of ?"
Answer. This is a time by which the professed followers of Christ will be tried through or by what the Father refers to as (Cont..)
---josef on 7/14/06


Cont..& gathered together with the resurrected for our encounter with Jesus. (Mat.24:31>1Thes.4:17) At that moment will meet Jesus and stand with Him upon the mount of olives (Zec.14:4, last line of ver.5) The deceived taken by the deception of the Antichrist along with those who refused the offer of salvation thru the sacrificial atonement of Jesus are gathered together against Jerusalem & slain in their mortality in the wake of wrath of God. (Mat.24:28>Rev.19:15,17,18,21) Related examples. (Lk.17:27-30)
---josef on 7/14/06


The events are one in the same. As a thief simply means suddenly without warning. The sound of the trump is the disclosure that announce His presence. That presence is revealed by a means that can not be refuted or denied. (Mat. 24:27>Lk. 17:24) When this event takes place we, as the elect, selected, chosen and preferred are changed, basically snatched from the mortal bodies we currently abide in and placed in an instant into our eternal bodies (1Co. 15:51-53) Cont..
---josef on 7/14/06


Thomas_D.I believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture because thats what the bible teaches.Of course you can believe the Post-Trib Rapture.But the Mid, Post Trib Rapture doesn't fit in with scriptures.Wither one which to believe or not its up to them.But I stick to what the bible teaches.

When will Christ Return? The bible saids that he come as a "Theif in the night".He can come any day, and night, etc.Be Prepare!.You dont what to be caught in a act of sin!.
---Ramon on 7/6/06


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Ramon, As they watched Jesus accend up to heaven the angels said he would return in like manner as he went up. Only God knows when Jesus will return. I've read all the scripture you can site and I lean toward Jesus's return at the end. This has been disagreed upon for a long time and it will continue to be disagreed upon just like many other scriptures are disagreed upon. Do you agree no one knows when? As I said a rapture would be 7 years notice to all remaining on earth. Just be ready.
---Thomas_D. on 7/5/06


Donna, In response to your 7/4/06 post, I agree that no one knows for sure whether if the rapture takes place before the tribulation or towards the end of it. There are good arguments on both sides.

I am not sure if the HS leaves when the church does. I have heard He does. I wrote it is a post, but I couldn't find scripture to back it up.

What you wrote that some preterists (do you mean pretribulationist?) At any case it is just plain false doctrine what they believe.
---Creamcup on 7/5/06


Ephraim the Syrian was not Greek, as his sobriquet suggests. He lived in the city of Edessa.

If he referred to t a pre-trib rapture, he was exceptional.

The Christian faith is "whatever has been beleived in all places, at all times, by all." Not "somewhere, sometime, by somebody."
---Jack on 7/5/06


Thomas#2.Prophecy scholar and author Grant Jeffrey has discovered a sermon by a Greek Orthodox theologian named Ephraem,who died before 400 A.D.

Darby was declaring a pre-tribulation Rapture as early as 1827,three years before Margaret.

They are other pre-1830(Pre-1700 etc) references to a pre-trib rapture held by early people.Thus, the argument that no one ever taught pretribulationism until 1830 is just not historically true.I have sited some scriptures below that teaches Pri-Trib Rapture.
---Ramon on 7/5/06


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-Thomas_D. Are you saying that before the 1830 no one believe the Pri-Trib Rapture?.Also the Rapture was not taught by Margaret MacDonald.Pre-trib scholars have discovered a host of rapture writings that predate Margaret MacDonald.

Epharaem the Syrian said, in 373 AD, "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."
---Ramon on 7/5/06


Pre...Mid...Post-Trib. There are so many opinions even among respected Evangelical scholors. I don't think anybody can say for sure which is correct.
Some (preterists) say that the Apocolypse in John's Revelation has already taken place (in 70 A.D., I think)and we are in the Millenium. But I don't know what they think about a new Heaven and new Earth. Anyone have more info on these beliefs?
---Donna2277 on 7/4/06


emg, ramon, The rapture was first preached after 1830. Convince me your right using the scriptures. How many apostols taught the rapture? Did Jesus teach the rapture? If the rapture occurs, it will give notice to all remaining on earth they need to get saved.
---Thomas_D on 7/4/06


Emg.#2. "I have noticed quite a number of contributors to C.N. who say that there will be no rapture....."

This is because they have not study the scriptures fully.Many profess falsehood and should be rejected.The Mid and Post Rapture doesn't line up with the bible.Christ coming is not a one-stage event as some say.These are not one and the same.Noah and Lot.Luke 17:28.From these two accounts, we see that God prefers to remove His own when danger is involved.May God bless you always Emg.
---Ramon on 7/4/06


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Emg.You are welcome.This doctrine is the most profess doctrine in scriptures.

However Its important to understand Emg that many are not following the sound doctrine express in the Holy Scriptures. They reject biblical doctrines.They will arise many false prophets(Romans 16:17,Matthew 7:15-20,etc).We are batting against the father of all lies.(John 8:44).Satan can be a angel of light.2 Corinthians 11:14.Matthew 10:16.We should be "aware" of his tactics! "Wise" to them!!.
---Ramon on 7/4/06


Jesus return is a one stage event. Gods people go through the time of trouble just "as it was in the days of Noah" and then Christ comes for all the righteous living and the righteous dead. The unrighteous living are detroyed by the brightness of His coming and the unrighteous dead stay dead until the end of the 1000 years talked baout in Rev 20 and they are resurrected to be finally destroyed and turned to ashes. mal 4:1-3
---eric on 7/4/06


Ramon, I agree with all that you say. I only queried this in the first place because I have noticed quite a number of contributors to C.N. who say that there will be no rapture and that both events that I spoke of are one and the same event. This is contrary to what I believe and have been taught.I am sure that they are 2 different happenings. Thank you for all your answers addressed to me personally. Thank you for all the bible references also. I really appreciate all your effort.
---emg on 7/4/06


Emg.#16.Look at The wedding story that Jesus gave in Matthew 25:2-13.Its a parable of the Rapture of the church. It explains how some will not be ready. Jesus clearly states that a group of people will miss out on an event, and will cry out to God to let them into the place where He resides, heaven.

The Rapture will happend unexpecting.In 1 Thessalonians 5:9, Paul assures us that God has not appointed His people to wrath. God's anger will be poured out during the tribulation.
---Ramon on 7/4/06


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Emg.#15.Revelation 19:14. Once again the armies who return with Christ include all saints who are already in Heaven (17:14).Their white clothing reveals their heavenly status.

If the saints of God are returning with Christ to wage war on the Antichrist, then it is not possible to have a post-trib rapture without us running into ourselves as we are coming and going.Also the The "Margaret MacDonald Origin" attack on the rapture is incorrect.
---Ramon on 7/4/06


Emg.#14.The Church has alreadly been caught in heaven before Christ coming picture in Rev 19 VV.11-21.Two reason why:1).The bride is entirely dressed and ready in heaven for the "Marriage of the lamb";This conclude that the Church has already been Raptured into heaven. 2).The bride who is already in heaven is fully clothed in "the righteousness of saints"(V8).

For the righteous acts of the saints to be completed, they must be in heaven and delievered from all evil.
---Ramon on 7/4/06


Emg.#13. Do you know what is the The Marriage Supper of the Lamb?.In Luke 12:36, the Word states that when Christ returns, He will be returning from a wedding. In Revelation 19:7-8, we read about the marriage itself. The marriage supper takes place before the marriage.The bride in heaven before the coming of Christ to Earth(second stage).

This corresponds to the time when Jesus returns to earth accompanied by an army "clothed in fine linen, white and clean" (Rev 19:14).
---Ramon on 7/4/06


Emg.#12.Another crucial passage on the timing of the Rapture is Revelation 3:10. Christ promises to deliver believers from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the earth.

it is important to recognize what believers are promised to be kept from. It is not just the trial.The verse saids the"hour of trial" Christ is promising to keep believers from the very time period that contains the trials, namely the Tribulation.Revelation 7:14.
---Ramon on 7/4/06


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Emg.#11.If Christ were to come back after the tribulation, rapture all the saints, and slay all the ungodly, who would be left to populate the earth during the millennium?

When Jesus returns, Rev 19:14, there is an army that follows Him riding on white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. In Rev 19:8 we are told the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints.
---Ramon on 7/3/06


Emg.#10.For the record, the word "rapture" comes from the Latin word "rapturo," which in turn was a translation of the Greek verb "caught up" found in 1 Thes 4:17.

"There is no secret rapture" is what some say. Rarely is this statement backed by supporting scriptural evidence.How its it a "secret" if we are telling people about it(lol)?

The Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ are often confused.
---Ramon on 7/3/06


Emg.#9.Where does the Holy Spirit reside? Of course in the hearts of each and every true Christian. Now the Holy Spirit has the same attributes as the other two persons of the Godhead, so He is omnipresent also. He can be anywhere.

Now on to the silly part.Nowhere in the Bible, can you find the word "rapture"
It amazes me that some folks reject it simply because the word "rapture" doesn't appear in the Bible.
---Ramon on 7/3/06


Emg.#8.2 Thessalonians 2:3-8.Remember God (inculding the Holy Spirit) is is omnipresent, and will remain so forever,it must mean something different then that He leaves the world.They will a great threat to the antichrist and the entire 1,260 days and counteract the signs and wonders of the prophets and antichrist.
The two witnesses have the power of both Moses and Elijah(Mal 4:5)Some believe that Elijah will again come again in the Trib period and will be one of the two witnesses mention in Rev 11.
---Ramon on 7/3/06


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Emg.#7 Matt 24:43. Christ coming at an unknown time is like a theif who breaks into a house. If the owner of the house knew he was coming he will watch for the theif.

Jesus urge that all believers to "watch".The Trib saints will be saved.If they accept Jesus.
One example why I believe this is Rev 11. God will send two witnesses to preach the Gospel and Prophesy about the future, they will process great supernatural powers.They will be a great threat to the anti-christ.
---Ramon on 7/3/06


Emg.#6.Mat 24:15, Jesus speaks about the special signs that will occur during the Great Tribulation. These signs will indicate the end of age and the return of christ second coming (the second stage).

Matt 24:29. Immediately after the tribualtion , there will occur spectacular cosmic signs that will precede the appearing of Christ return.Matt 24:30. This verse portrays Christ appearing in the sky after the tribulation to judge the wicked and establish the "new earth"(Rev 21:1).
---Ramon on 7/3/06


Emg#5.The Second Coming of Christ will occur in stages. First, He will remove all Christians from the Earth, to protect them. This is called "The Rapture." The term comes from the Latin verb raptare, and the Greek word harpizo, both meaning "to be caught up" or "to be snatched up." Jesus will "snatch us" out of harm's way.

The first stage is unexpected, the second is expected.The signs in the heaven. The tribulation saints will know when Christ is near.
---Ramon on 7/3/06


#4.Matt 24:42.He said "watch". Watch (GK Gregororeo) is a present imperative, indicating a constant vigil at the present time.

The second coming of Christ as one event consisting of two phases parallels Christ coming predicted in the OT.The OT speaks of one coming of the messiah, but sees its fulfillment in two stages. His coming to die for sin and his coming to reign.(IS 9:2-7, 40:3-5).One who says they is no Rapture is a liar and comes from the father of all lies (satan).
---Ramon on 7/3/06


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Ramon where is it mentioned that Christ comes at any time to take believers from the earth into heaven? Chapter and verse please. Thanks
---joseph on 7/3/06


if "holy ghost" taken out at pre trib rapture since it is his function to convict of sin then noone can be saved after pre trib rapture not true!!
---dave on 7/3/06


#3.With regard to Christ return after the Tribualtion. His coming will be expected, anticipated and foreseen. (Luke 21:38, Matt 24:33). Christ coming after the Tribulation is sometimes regarded as the second stage of Christ return.

This verse is important!.Matt 24:40. Christ statement that "one shall be taken, and the other left" comes before his exhortation to Church saints (vv 42-44). Therefore these words refers to the Rapture of the Church.
---Ramon on 7/3/06


#2. Mtt 24:42.Christ warning that his disciples must always be ready must be understoon as erferring to his return from heaven to take Church saints from Earth to Heaven is the Rapture.

Jesus explicity states that his coming for the saints living BEFORE the tribulation as a unexpected time and WITHOUT warning.These are not the same events has someone mention here.This clearly point to a element of surprise!.
---Ramon on 7/3/06


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Matt 24:44.Christ refers to his return for the faithful of his churches at an inexpected and unknown time.This warning is not for the Tribulation saints. The only way to harmonize Christ's teaching about his unexpected coming(Vs 42,44) with his expected coming.

Two different event. The first stage involes Christ return at an unexpected time to take believers from earth is the Rapture. The second stage is his coming at the end of the age at a expected time (The cosmic signs mention in Mat 24:39-30)
---Ramon on 7/3/06


Dr. V McGee said on his radio program, that Matthew was written to Jews. The intro for Matthew in my Bible said Matthew was addressing Jews. In my opinnion, Matthew 24 Jesus is talking about the Jews. 1Corinthians 15:40-54 1Thessalonians 4:13-18 seem be addressed to the Church. 2Peter 3:9-13 is referring to Matthew 24. It could be Jesus comes for his Church before tribulation. The Holy Spirit will be taken out then too. Jesus comes again at the end of the tribulation. Then his angles gathers up the elect.
---Creamcup on 7/3/06


Eric if this is all one event what then happens to all those that Jesus does NOT take, what is this 7 year period that people speak of and what is the 1000 year period that is also spoken of? Would you give me bible references please?
---emg on 7/3/06


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