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When Did Roman Catholism Start

When and how did the Roman Catholic denomination start?

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Paul, wrote a letter "To all that be in Rome..." (Romans 1:7) Obviously there was a Christian church there in his day. It survived by God's grace the tyrannical rule of the Caesars and Barbaric invasions. Following the collape of Rome in the 4th or 5th centuries , the Bishop of Rome (church elder)
assumed the rulership of the State. Early on, that church, in order to win unfluence, political and spiritual, lowered its standards. Extra-Biblical practices such as infant baptism, baptism by sprinkling, the worship of Mary, the sign of the cross, worship on the sun-day rather than the Sabbath, etc.
began to be accepted and the church at Rome corrupted, spiritually. Gradually, the Bishop of Rome assumed greater and greater power.
---Lynn on 1/9/11


Cluny//Then why was the Rev. Mr. Irons thrown out of the OPC ministry on the basis of what his wife Misty said in her blog?

Not at all familiar with Irons or his wife Misty, however, as in any denomination, including your, there are political rivalries in which one side may get booted. And all too often we only get one side of the total picture.

I should state at this juncture, as previous stated, I only ATTEND an Orthodox Presbyterian church as most of the doctrinal positions and the fellowship seems right.

I am not at present, nor have I at this time, made any decision as to membership.
---leej on 1/8/11


Regarding the 10 commandments, the WCF also states in XXI,7-8 ---leej on 1/8/11

Who cares what is stated in WCF? What about THE BIBLE?

PROBLEM with WCF:
1: There are NO SCRIPTURES (and if you find ONE, i will never come to this site again. your chance to shut me up forever or look like a fool.) That authorized the change from the 7th day to the first day. So that beief is 100% satanic.

2: There are many NT test speaking about the sabbath, and comanding the sabbath you just choose to ignore them. Acts 15:21, ACts 13: 41-44
Hebrews: 4:4, Hebrews 4:4
5: Romans 14 IS not aboutthe Ten commandents, Jesus did not coem to change the law
---francis on 1/8/11


\\the fact the Orthodox and Roman catholic insist on the first day as their sabbath is the very least of their problems.\\

Is it worth noting that the Latin and Greek words for "Saturday" is "Sabattum/Sabbado", and the word for Sunday is "Dominicum/Kyriake" or Lord's Day?

And furthermore, the Hebrew word "shabbat" means "rest, cessation," and was NOT about worship but about an enforced labor stoppage that extended even to one's slaves and farm animals?
---Cluny on 1/8/11


\\Unlike Adventism, those belonging to the OPC are given freedom to have their own interpretations of Scripture beyond the basics, the denomination is not dictatorial.\\

Then why was the Rev. Mr. Irons thrown out of the OPC ministry on the basis of what his wife Misty said in her blog?
---Cluny on 1/8/11




Francis I can answer your question in which you said,

"to start with how do you even know that you LEEJ are predestined? LOL LOL LOL"

Because I am a believer. All those who are believers in Christ have been predestined.
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame"

...being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will."
---Mark_V. on 1/8/11


\\the fact the Orthodox and Roman catholic insist on the first day as their sabbath is the very least of their problems.\\

Then why are you harping on it, francis?
---Cluny on 1/8/11


francis //Orthodox Presbyterians subscribe to what we see in the Westminster Confessions of Faith.

Regarding the 10 commandments, the WCF also states in XXI,7-8 that God 'hath appointed 1 day in 7 for a Sabbath, to be kept holy unto Him, which from the beginning to the resurrection was the last day of the week, BUT from the resurrection of Christ was changed to the 1st day of the week, called the Lord's Day...as the Christian Sabbath."

Howbeit, there is no requirement for any member to accept that. My view followes Calvin's understanding that the Jewish Sabbath was abrogated and that is what Scripture states in Romans 14.
---leej on 1/8/11


francis //And you are also CALVINIST?

I recognize Calvin as one of the most influential teachers of the Christian church, howbeit, like everyone else has different interpretations on some issues.

Unlike Adventism, those belonging to the OPC are given freedom to have their own interpretations of Scripture beyond the basics, the denomination is not dictatorial.

For instance, the OPC pastor and myself agree with Calvin the Jewish Sabbath was abrogated, contrary to the WCF view that there is a Christian Sabbath.

//how do you even know that you are predestined?

Laugh away (Jude 1:18), but we Christians believe the Bible teaches we were predestined from the foundation of the world. Eph. 1:4.
---leej on 1/8/11


Samuel //This is a lie. Fine you disagree with us.

That in effect is what Jerry once posted that one can obey all the law with the help of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Glad to see that you are in agreement that it is the righteousness of Christ that is accredited to us as our own righteousness thru our own efforts can only be viewed as filthy rag in the eyes of God.

Blessings!
---leej on 1/7/11




Dear Leej you wrote:

"The belief they can become sufficiently righteous thru the law to merit eternal life, believing that all they need is the indwelling Holy Spirit, thus rejecting that righteousness that is our in Christ?"

This is a lie. Fine you disagree with us. But to reinforce your position why do you have to lie. Go to our Website and read our fundamental beliefs. This is not listed or taught. I have been an SDA for 35 years and I have never heard this taught or read once.
---Samuel on 1/7/11


the fact the Orthodox and Roman catholic insist on the first day as their sabbath is the very least of their problems.

SDA did not get to choose thier own sabbath. the simply accepted:
Exodus 20:10 the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God:

Orthodox and RCC have their holy day. SDA did not get to choose their holy day. they went with:

Isaiah 58:13 the sabbath.. My holy day,

Proverbs 16:25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

SDA do it GOD's way
---francis on 1/7/11


LEEJ I look it up when you said you were a member of OPC:

here is what they teach:
Believers strive to keep God's moral law, which is summarized in the Ten Commandments, not to earn salvation, but because they love their Savior and want to obey him. God is the Lord of the conscience, so that men are not required to believe or do anything contrary to, or in addition to, the Word of God in matters of faith or worship.

And you are also CALVINIST?

This year 2011 I am gonna have FUN at your expense with the OPC and CALVINIST thing

to start with how do you even know that you LEEJ are predestined? LOL LOL LOL
---francis on 1/7/11


\\What do you consider their most grievous doctrinal error? \\

Claiming that Jesus is really the Archangel Michael--in other words, Arianism, as many early SDA leaders, including James White, husband of EGW, explicitly were.

They also have a strange doctrine of atonement that makes Satan the one who takes away the sins of the world.

And then, as you mentioned, it's their attempt to live under law and grace simultaneously, though they pick and choose what parts of the OT law they follow.
---Cluny on 1/7/11


Francis//UNLESS YOU THINK THAT THIS 4TH BEAST IS OTHER THAN ROME?

Your reference to Rome as the 4th beast is academic. If you were to consult the commentaries, you would find little if any support for your view that Rome would arise out of the ashes to again become a world power.

All too often the prophecies in the Bible already had their fulfillment in times past. And trying to project them into future events is not only foolish but futile.

Unfortunately for you, you are stuck under the skirts of an old woman whose interpretations of end time events, are more or less her rantings against the Roman Church.
---leej on 1/7/11


Cluny //May I add that the SDA insistence on the Saturday Sabbath is the LEAST of their errors?

What do you consider their most grievous doctrinal error?

The belief they can become sufficiently righteous thru the law to merit eternal life, believing that all they need is the indwelling Holy Spirit, thus rejecting that righteousness that is our in Christ?

1 cor. 1:30 But from Him you are in Christ Jesus, who for us became wisdom from God, as well as righteousness, sanctification, and redemption, in order that, as it is written: The one who boasts must boast in the Lord.
---leej on 1/7/11


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Jerry//So which is it Lee? Are you a Catholic or an Eastern Orthodox?

I currently go to an Orthodox Presbyterian church but have great respect for my brothers & sisters in the Eastern Orthodox churches as they share more in common from a Biblical standpoint than differences.

In any case, you are truly stuck in a hole in view of the fact that olde Ellen White never heard of or mentioned the existence of the Eastern Churches - churches never under Rome and as far back as we can trace never observed the Jewish Sabbath or the dietary laws.

You should realize that Adventism is a rather new movement that has had more than its share of failures with many knowledgeables leaving for more Biblical oriented denominations.
---leej on 1/7/11


\\So which is it Lee? Are you a Catholic or an Eastern Orthodox? Or perhaps you have started your own "Church of Lee".
---jerry6593 on 1/7/11\\

In either case, he is a Christian.

But when SDAs embrace the truth and wish to become Orthodox, they must be received BY ORTHODOX BAPTISM.

May I add that the SDA insistence on the Saturday Sabbath is the LEAST of their errors?
---Cluny on 1/7/11


---Ignatius is the BIBLE debatable?

Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
Daniel 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them, and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time

UNLESS YOU THINK THAT THIS 4TH BEAST IS OTHER THAN ROME?
---FRANCIS on 1/7/11


"It is NOT debatable. " (Francis)

Funny, since I have several church history books and none mention that the Roman Bishops influenced Sunday worship or that one of them changed the day Christians worshiped in the 4th century. Just recently I purchased "The History of the Christian Church until the Great Schism of 1054" by Mikhail Emmanuelovich Posnov and his treatment of Church Worship (chapter 5) summarize the historical fact (from Scriptures, the writings of the Fathers and early Christian liturgical documents): Christians celebrated the Divine Liturgy on the First Day of the Week (Sunday) since the Apostolic Time, uninfluenced by the Roman Church or Her Bishops.

Cased Closed.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 1/7/11


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So which is it Lee? Are you a Catholic or an Eastern Orthodox? Or perhaps you have started your own "Church of Lee".
---jerry6593 on 1/7/11


\\Daniel 7:23 The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, Daniel 7:25 And he shall.. think to change times and laws:
---francis on 1/6/11\\

Russian Old Believers say this means Patriarch Nikon who started big liturgical changes in the Russian Orthodox Church, and Peter the Great, who began dating from AD instead of the old Russian Year of Creation.

And there are more of them than SDA.
---Cluny on 1/7/11


Part 2:

\\WHo is the FOURTH BEAST? is it not ROME?\\

I forgot to add: No, it is not.

Try again.
---Cluny on 1/7/11


Aside from the fact that this is debatable
---Ignatius on 1/5/11

It is NOT debatable. It is a historical FACT. You can look it up in any credible history book.
What makes it even less debateabel is that it is prophecy: Daniel 7 22-25, and appeas in many Catholic literature.

Just look it up in catholic teachings.
Just look it up in the bible, and history:
Do you believe the BIBLE:
WHo is the FOURTH BEAST? is it not ROME?

Daniel 7:23 The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, Daniel 7:25 And he shall.. think to change times and laws:
---francis on 1/6/11


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//You have such a vivid imagination! Good laugh!

I think that Jerry is the one that is the dunce-boy here refusing to believe in the records of the early church has left.

And that is a case in which denominational beliefs overrule not only the Bible but the history of the church.

I would love to have him comment on the fact that olde Ellen White did not even know of the Eastern Churches who accordingly did not observe either the Sabbath or the dietary laws.

Such a typical belief comes from those like the Mormons who believe the church immediately became corrupted upon the death of the last Apostle.
---leej on 1/6/11


\\Lee: You are such a dunce. When will you learn that bashing another denomination will not save you. Bacchiocchi is a Jesuit plant, trained in the Vatican, and sent to infiltrate and destroy Adventism. He's your spiritual kin.\\

jerry, are you saying that the author of FROM SABBATH TO SUNDAY was a jeb plant in the SDA?

This is weird, as the book was highly recommended to me by an SDA pastor.
---Cluny on 1/6/11


Lee: You are such a dunce. When will you learn that bashing another denomination will not save you. Bacchiocchi is a Jesuit plant, trained in the Vatican, and sent to infiltrate and destroy Adventism. He's your spiritual kin. jerry6593

Dear Jerry you make me ashamed. Brother Bacchiocchi defended vigously the SDA doctrine. He would upset by those who misuse His writings. Have you actually read His book Sabbath to Sunday showing how the day was changed? I have. I challenge those here to actually read the Book. Not just pick passages out of context.
---Samuel on 1/6/11


"Bacchiocchi is a Jesuit plant, trained in the Vatican, and sent to infiltrate and destroy Adventism." (Jerry6593)

LOL!

You have such a vivid imagination! Good laugh!

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 1/6/11


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//Bacchiocchi is a Jesuit plant, trained in the Vatican, and sent to infiltrate and destroy Adventism. He's your spiritual kin.

O, you love those conspiracy theories! Typical of many who cannot stand those whose research unveils the truth as rejected by Adventism.

You apparently got that wrong since Samuele Bacchiocchi survived the various purges that took place in the Adventists denomination.

Only a dunce would deny that in order to be a creditable historian, others have to be able to be able to track the historical sources from which the conclusion is made.

Sorry Jerry bird but all historical research reveals that the Gentile churches by the end of the 1st century no longer observed the Jewish sabbath.
---leej on 1/6/11


Lee: You are such a dunce. When will you learn that bashing another denomination will not save you. Bacchiocchi is a Jesuit plant, trained in the Vatican, and sent to infiltrate and destroy Adventism. He's your spiritual kin.

Why don't we talk about your denomination for awhile, or are you still too ashamed to divulge its identity?
---jerry6593 on 1/6/11


Sameul //But I do it was written by the Popes of the RCC that they changed Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday.

If you believe that, then why do church historians including some that are Adventists (Samuele Bacchiocchi*, et al) hold that from their research that sunday worship started during the reign of Hadrian 135 A.d.

While Rome may have claimed some authority and made some pronouncement against the Jewish Sabbath, such only reflected their prejudice against the Jews.

*"From Sabbath to Sunday" A historical investigation of the Rise of Sunday Observance in Early Christianity" read especially Chapter VII Anti-Judaism in the Fathers & the Origin of Sunday.
---leej on 1/5/11


Adventists in their futile attempts to blame Rome for changing the Sabbath to Sunday, quote the decision made at the Council of Laodicea -a regional conference of approximately 30 clerics from Asia Minor (363-364 AD). Rome was not even a part of this council.

Canon 29 outlawed the keeping of the Sababth and encouraged rest on Sunday (the Lords Day).

Their decree was basically a reaction against the Judaizing of the church, some of which apparently still observed the Jewish Sabbath.

Bishops during those times had little control over individual churches and congregations and many had access only to the OT scriptures.
---leej on 1/5/11


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\\I do not know that it is a fact that she never heard of the Eastern Orthodox.\\

In the multivolume index of her works she has pages of references to her rantings about the Roman Catholic Church and Protestant churces, but not ONE REFERENCE to the Orthodox or ANY of the Eastern Churches.

?? But I do it was written by the Popes of the RCC that they changed Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday.\\

Which popes wrote this? Please give their names.
---Cluny on 1/5/11


"....it was written by the Popes of the RCC that they changed Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday." (Samuel)

Aside from the fact that this is debatable (and even many Protestant scholars/historians will disagree), one will have to be very ignorant of Holy Scriptures and Church History to believe that the Christians in the 1st-3rd centuries DID NOT celebrate the Divine Liturgy on the first day of the week (Sunday). It was, after all, regarded as a day of joyful celebration due to the fact that Christ rose on that day. This certainty was not influenced by the Roman Bishops.

Ellen G White had no knowledge of Eastern Christianity, and she certainty had no knowledge of Church History or the Bible.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 1/5/11


Sigh in the middle of this good question an attack is held on Ellen G. White. Why?
I do not know that it is a fact that she never heard of the Eastern Orthodox. But I do it was written by the Popes of the RCC that they changed Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. Now you can say they lied when they stated that. Just like many say they lie when they say that they told us what is the Bible. But that is a different topic.
---Samuel on 1/4/11


"the first became the pope, the other four are still called patriarchs until this day
---James on 1/3/11"

The Patriarchs of Alexandria was called "Pope" as well (they still do). The word "pope" simply means "papa" and was not exclusively used for the Roman Bishop. In fact, the Patriarch of Alexandria was called "Pope" prior to the Roman Bishop being called that.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 1/3/11


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In any case, it is an established fact that Ellen White never heard of the Eastern Orthodox or other Apostolic churches of the East, believing the Rome changed the Jewish Sabbath to Sunday.

Dig deeper into Adventism and one would find they reallly have much in common, belief in works to merit favor in God's eyes instead of in the finished work of Christ on the Cross. Criticism of Roman catholicism by Adventism is much like the kettle calling the pot black, both have bad doctrines.
---leej on 1/3/11


//What??? History is history, and is not dependent on your personal anomosity to other Christian denominations.

Yes, Jerry, I can see you avoid answering the question posed as you know that I am correct.

It is obvious to any student of the Bible and church history that olde Ellen White did not not not even realize there was an Eastern Orthodox church (and other Apostolic type churches) and that they by the end of the first century did not observe the Jewish Sabbath.

Even SDA scholars such as Samuele Bacchiocchi, Maxwell, et al. knew that and totally disagreed with Ellen White who chose out of her ignorance and religious prejudice to blame Roman Catholicism.

Sorry Jerry, but you keep missing the ball on these topics.
---leej on 1/3/11


leej: There were actually five patriarchs, not two: one in Rome, one in Istambul, one in Alexandreia, one in Damascua and one in Jerusalem. The first became the pope, the other four are still called patriarchs until this day
---James on 1/3/11


Lee: "If that were true"

What??? History is history, and is not dependent on your personal anomosity to other Christian denominations. Good grief, Lee. Grow up, will you?
---jerry6593 on 1/3/11


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//In 533 A.D. Justinian, the emperor of the Eastern Roman Empire, legally recognized the bishop (pope) of Rome as the head of all the Christian churches.

If that were true, then why was there an event called the Great Schism in 1054 when the Bishop of Rome and the Patriarch of Constantiople excommunicated each other?

In any case, it is an established fact that Ellen White never heard of the Eastern Orthodox or other Apostolic churches of the East, believing the Rome changed the Jewish Sabbath to Sunday.
---leej on 1/2/11


In 533 A.D. Justinian, the emperor of the Eastern Roman Empire, legally recognized the bishop (pope) of Rome as the head of all the Christian churches.

But, the Ostrogoths that held Rome were not defeated until 538 AD. Thus the date 538 AD stands as the beginning of the RC Church as a controlling power.
---jerry6593 on 1/2/11


//The Roman CAtholic Church started in 1054 when the Papacy split from Orthodoxy

It is doubtful anyone would believe that as the church at Rome started even before Paul write his epistle to the Romans.

As stated before, Roman Catholic historian Eamon Duffy records that the Roman Church was built around the Jewish synagogues in Rome.

However, the churches in the East that eventually came under the control of the patriarch of Constantiople, were largely established by the Apostles and their immediate successors.

The theory that Apostolic succession sanctions a church doctrines, is false as there was heretical beliefs in the church even from the beginning. The early church writings reveal that much.
---leej on 1/1/11


Cluny: The Roman CAtholic Church started in 1054 when the Papacy split from Orthodoxy

Personally, I have a suspicion (just from small things I read here and there) that some disputes had been buiding up for some time, and because communication was not so easy in those day, they just alllowed little differences to remain, as sorting them out would be too much trouble. But yes, in 1054 the Roman 'Patriach' as he would then have been called (and the other four still are) decided to split away
---peter3594 on 12/31/10


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Francis ... I misread your original post! So ignore what I have been saying. I muddled the two groups!Sorry
---alan8566_of_uk on 12/29/10


" When the Roman empire collapsed, ten divisions resulted. Alemani (Germany), Franks (France), Burgundians (Switzerland), Suevi (Portugal), Anglo-Saxons (Britain), Visigoths (Spain), Lombards (Italy), Vandals, Ostrogoths, and Heruli"
---alan8566_of_uk on

you will have to show me some history which made these ten nation independant of rome before the roman empire colapsed.
then you would have to prove to me that even as nation they were indep of Rome, because i do remember rome appointing kings, and rome anointing kings see charles the great
---francis on 12/28/10


The RC started in Rome. But it took a long time for the new Jewish Messiah to change and become the combination of Judaism and Paganism that the RCC is today.

They claim to have been since the foundation. But the writings of many of the Early church fathers goes against the teaching of the RCC.
---Samuel on 12/29/10


According to Eamon Duffy "Saints & Sinners, A history of the Popes", the Roman church started after Jews returned to Rome after the Pentecost event.

He goes on to say the Roman Church was built around the Jewish synagogues, there being several in Rome.

ESV study Bible notes inform us Roman historian Suetonius reveals the conflict between the Jews and Christians, Jews were expelled from Rome by Emperor Claudius (41-54 A.d.). This conflict Paul addressed in his epistle to the Romans and was more likely over Jewish laws such as circumcision, dietary & sabbath keeping laws. (Romans 14).

As the Roman Church grew, it being at the center of the Empire and the most wealthy, was able to achieve power and influence.
---leej on 12/28/10


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Francis ... I was referring to the final paragraph of yours of 12/25:

" When the Roman empire collapsed, ten divisions resulted. Alemani (Germany), Franks (France), Burgundians (Switzerland), Suevi (Portugal), Anglo-Saxons (Britain), Visigoths (Spain), Lombards (Italy), Vandals, Ostrogoths, and Heruli"

That statement is incorrect, because five had gone before the Roman Empire.

And as Cluny says, yoiur facts about the others are incorrect
.
---alan8566_of_uk on 12/27/10


---alan8566_of_uk on 12/26/10
Ok now I see what you are talking about.
Here is the verse which I was refering to:
Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come, and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

Five have fallen, which is PAST, happened before John wrote revelation.
this the five kingdoms were: Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medeo-Persia, and Greece

FIVE nation which were BEFORE ROME< which had fallen by the time John wrote the book. ALl five ofcourse having oppressed Israel, without being defeated by israel.

the one that is of course is Rome.

Then we have ten king which had not yet receeived kingdoms..
---francis on 12/27/10


\\Burgundians (Switzerland), Suevi (Portugal), \\

francis, the Burgundians were in France, NOT Switzerland, the native tribes there were the Helvetii.

And the Suevi were a GERMANIC tribe, not Portugese.
---Cluny on 12/26/10


Francis ... Of those empires you listed, the following were before Jesus's time Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medeo-Persia, and Greece.

So they can't be the ones referred to in the Revelation
---alan8566_of_uk on 12/26/10


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And your ten kings ...they are all pre_Christ,
---alan8566_of_uk on 12/26/10

I am not sure what you mean by pre christ. because the book of revelation was written after the death of christ and points to the future. Christ clearly stated that those ten kings/ kingdoms had not yet received power or kingdoms yet.

Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet, but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

so please explain what you mean by pre christ so that we both understand each other.
---francis on 12/26/10


Francis ...When the Roman Empite collapsed, the Angles and the Saxons were nowhere near Britain.

And your ten kings ...they are all pre_Christ, except what you call Pagan Rome. You don't even mention the Roman Empire that collapsed!
---alan8566_of_uk on 12/26/10


Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come, and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

FIVE ARE FALLEN: Egypt, Assyria, Babyilon, Medeo-Persia, and Greece,
ONE IS: Pagan Rome
Other not yet Come: Papal Rome

Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet, but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

When the Roman empire collapsed, ten divisions resulted. Alemani (Germany), Franks (France), Burgundians (Switzerland), Suevi (Portugal), Anglo-Saxons (Britain), Visigoths (Spain), Lombards (Italy), Vandals, Ostrogoths, and Heruli.
---francis on 12/25/10


Rome is spiritually called Babylon. Rev.17,18+ Is.21:9+ Zech.5: Romulus and Remus built ancient Rome upon 7 hills in the 8th century B.C.: Palatino Hill, Campidoglio Hill (aka: Capitolino Hill), Quirinale Hill, Viminale Hill, Esquilino Hill, Celio Hill, Aventino Hill. Then over the centuries the empire of Rome grew beyond the limits of the 'Seven Hills' and extended out to include other hills in the vicinity. And hills on the other side of the Tiber River, such as the common Vatican Hill were counted within Romes walls in 848 A.D. in order to protect St. Peter's Basilica and the Vatican, but the people for nostalgic reasons still retained the name of the city by its original designation: 'the City of Seven Hills'.
---Eloy on 12/25/10


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Rome is spiritually called Babylon. Rev.17,18+ Is.21:9+ Zech.5: Romulus and Remus built ancient Rome upon 7 hills in the 8th century B.C.: Palatino Hill, Campidoglio Hill (aka: Capitolino Hill), Quirinale Hill, Viminale Hill, Esquilino Hill, Celio Hill, Aventino Hill. Then over the centuries the empire of Rome grew beyond the limits of the 'Seven Hills' and extended out to include other hills in the vicinity. And hills on the other side of the Tiber River, such as the common Vatican Hill were counted within Rome's walls in 848 A.D. in order to protect St. Peter's Basilica and the Vatican, but the people for nostalgic reasons still retained the name of the city by its original designation: 'the City of Seven Hills'.
---Eloy on 12/25/10


The spiritual answer to this question is: It stated with Satan in Heaven when he rebelled against God, and satan then deceived Eve and Adam sinned. Adam sin gave Satan power on earth.

And Satan gave to the RCC his power and authority:

Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns,

Daniel 7:23 The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom Daniel 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are TEN KINGS

REVELATION 13:2 And the beast which I saw.. and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

SATAN GAVE the RCC his Seat.
---francis on 12/24/10


\\see daniel 7:25 and rev 16 and 17
---Seth on 12/22/10\\

The Roman CAtholic Church started in 1054 when the Papacy split from Orthodoxy.

The verses above have NOTHING to do with the Roman Catholic Church for several reasons:

1. Rome sits on NINE, not seven hills.

2. Jerusalem DOES sit on seven hills.

3. There is only ONE religious body that has ever been personified in the Old Testament as a harlot.
---Cluny on 12/24/10


It is difficult to give an exact date of when the RCC started. Paul wrote:2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work:
So the perverssion of the word of god started even during the time of Paul.

This continued to a period where "bishops" or "Popes" were the teritorial rulers in Rome. Christainity was not popular in those days until Constantine was converted.

Constantine then gave more power to the teritorial bishops and so the seeds of the RCC started.

From time to time the Roman Emperors would call a council to get the church together.

The RCC was started essencialy to keep political power in Rome, and keep Rome united.

breakthrough came with Charles and clovis
---FRANCIS on 12/24/10


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see daniel 7:25 and rev 16 and 17
---Seth on 12/22/10


The devil & the Man - made trin rcc came along about 300 yr's aft The One God Jesus name Church of The Living God was born on the day of Pentecost according to Mark 16 v 16, Acts 2 v's 37 - 41 which Fulfills Matt.28 v's 19 - 20, The Early Church. Which made the devil mad, so the devil 2nd.Cor.11 v's 14 - 15 with roman leaders & nero the crusades went to kill off The Early Church Saints, so the devil could have his own followings, the Man - made trin rcc & her trin daughters churches. Matt.15 v 9. Rev.17 v's 4 - 6.

The One God Jesus name Church of The Living God still Is alive & well today.

The devil didn't kill us all & he would like to.
---Lawrence on 8/6/10


Membership of a church, religious practices, cannot save you. Only being born again of the Spirit can save you. This can only come through God giving you the gift of faith. No matter how small that faith is, God can work with you to increase it. If you are closed-minded, or have been deceived about your salvation, then you are in danger of not being saved, ever.
---frances008 on 9/14/08


The roman root of idolatry, worshipping a made-up female deity, can be traced back to 630 B.C. in Egypt, recorded in the Old Testament in Jeremiah 44:15-30.
---Eloy on 9/15/08


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#2 For 5oo years, the so called Dark Ages were in effect. Christian had to hold on to their faith. The Vandals & Visigoths attacked Rome, the Angles & Saxons attacked England. The Germans & Franks had power in western Europe. In the 8th Century Moslems invaded from Asia. Muhammed died in 632 A.D. From 1000-1700 A.D. was the Medieval Era & the Protestant Reformation.
---Debbie on 9/14/08


Augusta, did you find what you were looking for?
---NPR on 8/16/07


There historical facts that one must take into consideration is the discussion of RCC dominance. For over 1100 years the Church was one. It took 150 years for Rome to find a Pope who would approve of it's claim of dominance. In denying the legitimacy of all those, who like the Roman popes during the 150 years following the original claim of primacy, disagreed with them, Schism was created in the Church. Creating Schism in the Church is a sin. Consider the damage that was caused by this single act.
---William on 7/29/07


Well considering all Western Christianity originated from The Catholic Church those who say The Catholic Church only originated in 300 AD are also undermining all Protestants, because Protestantism originated out of Catholicism. This is, with respect, a silly argument.
---Ed on 7/18/07


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"The word "Catholic," used to describe the Church Jesus founded (upon the "Rock" of Peter), was in a letter of St. Ignatius of Antioch in 110 AD. It described the Church which was already known as the Catholic Church."

MaryLouise is right. St. Ignatius was the Bishop of Antioch and studied under the Apostle John.

Here is part of his letter to the Smyrneans:

con't
---augusta on 7/18/07


'See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles, and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be, even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.'
---augusta on 7/18/07


3. In a letter to the Romans, he writes:

"to the church also which holds the presidency, in the location of the country of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honor, worthy of blessing, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy of sanctification, and, because you hold the presidency in love, named after Christ and named after the Father."
---augusta on 7/18/07


Does it matter when RC started? The word of God tells us when.history backs up that saying But the truth is when did the tussel For supremacy by evil over good start.That goes back to creation & that is when God who so loved the world which he created decided to send His sonto show us the waythe choice we have to make is "Good over Or "evil over good".Jesus Church shows the wayMatt16:17-19
---Emcee on 7/18/07


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#1 Around 300 A.D. Constantine was growing up in the imperial court. Christian converts were everywhere, but were illegal and were being persecuted. Christianity eventually becomes the official religion of the Roman Empire. the church became a powerful organization after Constantine. Not long after the Roman Empire came under attack from pagan tribes which also meant christianity was under attack.
---Debbie on 7/18/07


The Roman Catholic Church traces it's roots to the Apostles. The word "Catholic," used to describe the Church Jesus founded (upon the "Rock" of Peter), was in a letter of St. Ignatius of Antioch in 110 AD. It described the Church which was already known as the Catholic Church.

"Upon this Rock I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it." (Matt. 16:13-19)
---MaryLouise on 7/7/06


Debbie ::That is an excellent precis of the RCC history the christians under the leadership of the apostles who were still the main nucleus of The real christianity.There were many trials & new facets to christianity with new views being introduced these denominations died out & so also new ones were born this was satans ploy of rule & divide I think.
---Emcee on 7/6/06


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