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Gold Dust And Holy Laughter

Gold dust from the church ceiling, gold teeth fillings, holy laughter, later day rain movement, are there any other current false doctrines like things going around in the Body of Christ today?

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let me guess ur not a christian thats y you say this
---mary on 2/21/08


Number 3: I experienced peace and was not moved from what I believe because someone else didn't manifest it.
---Linda6563 on 8/20/07


Donna 2277, thank you so much,they kept Mom in the preop all day today but there were too many emergencies to get to her,suspose to tomorrow,she's awfuly tired,pray they do get operation done and get her on the road to recovery. God Bless
---Darlene_1 on 7/22/06


Darlene, I'm praying for your mom--that her bones knit together perfectly and quickly and that any pain is short-lived. I'm praying, too, that your heart and mind be kept in peace.
---Donna2277 on 7/21/06


Bruce and Lupe--This exchange between the two of you has been a wonderful Bible study! I felt so unhappy to see the earlier discussion end in such confusion. So nice to get back to what the Word actually says. I feel as if I'm again standing on solid ground.So many popular teachers start with an idea or, worse, a "feeling", and try to find Scripture to fit it. That leads to nothing good.
---Donna2277 on 7/21/06




3. If a person is not careful, it would be easy to deceive someone with sly of words, since Scripture has to be understood as a whole. I didn't recongize my mistake until you brought it to my attention, though I knew the explanation was there. I need to learn much more.
---Lupe2618 on 7/21/06


2. ultimately, it is the will of God. I believe where this subjects hurt is when someone clearly makes the acts of man as the controller of that persons destiney is what is wrong. If they don't say something or don't have enough faith, the blame is on the person, either the one praying with power or the one that is ill. Ultimately it is the will of God. Though the mouth has power to bring others to Christ, and cause havoic to others, it does not determines when someone should die a physical death.
---Lupe2618 on 7/21/06


Bruce, your explanation was great about the word "revelation" and the "Word" Christ. The points on Paul's voyage was also a good explanation since you made the point that "even if Paul had not spoken those words to the man, they were not going to parish anyway". I think that is where the difference in the subject of illnesses and other issues are concern. Just because someone does not speak the words to the ill, does not mean he will still die.
---Lupe2618 on 7/21/06


I'll be off for a while must take Mom to emergency today to check into hospital for hip surgery,she broke it last week.Please pray for her,it may be 2 or 3 days before surgery due to bloodthinner in her system.She's 88 and 2nd time for this ,other hip, since Feb 28. Thanks,God Bless to All.
---Darlene_1 on 7/21/06


Linda,
Oops. I left your name out but the five part post below was intended to be addressed to you.
---Bruce5656 on 7/20/06




PART ONE:
Dory,
There are two "words" that are of concern in this discussion. The written revelation of God called "God's Word" and the living relevation of God, Jesus, called "the Word." Jesus is not the bible and the bible is not Jesus.
---Bruce5656 on 7/20/06


PART TWO:
If, as you suggest, I John 5:7-8 is to be understood as "There are three who agree in Heaven, the Father, the written word, and the Holy Spirit", where is the Son in that? The revelator is more important than his relevation.
Surely you can see that the Word who is in agreement with the Father and the Holy Spirit is Jesus? Not the written word but the author?
---Bruce5656 on 7/20/06


2. Paul had forgotten the assurance of God's promise that he was to visit Rome in the fifth vision of his ministry. recorded in chapter 23: and in Romans 1:9-11; 15:23." yet in the deep of the storm all was forgotten but God came through again and gave him comfort. I believe we do that many times. Just a thought
---Lupe2618 on 7/20/06


Pt2
"So there are three witnesses in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are One; and there are three witnesses on the earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree [are in unison; their testimony coincides]." (1 John 5:7,8 AMP)
---DoryLory on 7/20/06


Pt1
Bruce, your words are a part of you and flow from who you are. We couldn't seperate your words from you. We can't seperate the Father, Son and Holy Spirit (the Trinity) and neither can we seperate the Word from God.

The Word of God is power just as there is power in the name of Jesus and in the blood. Everything of God is power.
---DoryLory on 7/20/06


Your explanation on Paul was great. What I got out of it was, that Paul, as great as he was, knowing so much of God and teaching others about the Church, was himself afraid. For a moment He walked away from the comfort or assurance of God and became just like the rest on the boat, at least for a while. He was afraid that they would all die. He had told them ahead of time it was too dangerous. Now they are in a mess until the angel appears and gives him assurance that things will be ok.
---Lupe2618 on 7/20/06


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2. Thank you for correcting me for not seeing what was said correctly. You are perfectly correct. I like that all of you are there to help me. Yes, we would have a problem with that very much. The Trinity is already hard to explain let along confusing the issue.
---Lupe2618 on 7/20/06


Thank you Bruce, I did not see it from that stand point. You are right. I went through and was looking for, "you can do this" or I can do that" in some way connecting the verses of Scripture to ourselves. I didn't see anything that she said do that so i answered in that direction. I wanted to show that when we get one concept wrong it takes us in a different direction and later we cannot make sense on what we are accually saying.
---Lupe2618 on 7/20/06


PART ONE:

Pauls words to the Philippians do not by any means demonstrate a choice being made. All he is doing is making an observation and expressing his personal feelings. (Philippians 1:23-24, "For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
---Bruce5656 on 7/20/06


PART TWO:
Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.") He is simply making it is clear that he is entirely subjected to the will of God in the matter and is resigned to stay until such time as God takes him home.
---Bruce5656 on 7/20/06


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PART THREE:
Elsewhere you suggested that because Paul spoke a certain way, the people on the ship with him were saved from death Now if he hadn't spoken that word, some of those folks on that ship would have perished because they had no foundation to stand on.

That is not what the word says:

Acts 27:22-25, "And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of
---Bruce5656 on 7/20/06


PART FOUR:
any man's life among you, but of the ship. For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve, Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee. Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me."
---Bruce5656 on 7/20/06


PART FIVE:
Granted, Paul was making a confession but it was simply a confession that he believed Gods promise. True this confession might give comfort to the frightened men if they did not just think he was a crackpot. However, it was not a word from Paul that saved them. Even if Paul kept his mouth shut, God would have kept his promise that none would die.
---Bruce5656 on 7/20/06


Darlene--My view of healing: The cross bought salvation for our SOULS. But the redemption of our BODIES is yet to come. "..we.. groan within ourselves waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body" (Rom. 8:23) our resurrection with Christ.
Until then, our bodies and our world are damaged by sin. God DOES HEAL miraculously, even now, when He wills, but not according to our words. If the HS shows us His will to heal someone, we should pray for them with faith.
---Donna2277 on 7/20/06


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Lupe, the point I was trying to make is that Romans 1:16 is not limited to salvation. Protection, deliverance and health are also included in that verse (see my Pt1).

If you have a problem with praying for the dead to come back to life, then that's something you definitely should not try to do. Where I'm at with my faith today, I'm not ready to do it either. But someday I might be there. At least that is my hope ... to be able to believe God for the seemingly impossible.
---DoryLory on 7/20/06


Sorry for the duplicate message.

I should have finished it to say;

"the Word IS (emphasis hers) God. The Word of God is alive, it (emphasis mine) is..."

This statment seems to indicate she is refering to the written word of God "it" vs Jesus "he", and yet saying it is God. As you can see by my question to her, I have asked her to clairfy this.
---Bruce5656 on 7/20/06


Lupe,
You state complete agreement with Dory. You believe the written word to be God?
"the Word IS (emphasis hers)God. The Word of God is alive, it (empahsis mine) is...."
---Bruce5656 on 7/20/06


Lupe,
You state complete agreement with Dory. You believe the written word to be God?
"the Word IS (emphasis hers)God. The Word of God is alive, it (empahsis mine) is...."
---Bruce5656 on 7/20/06


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PART ONE:
Dory,

Think about what you are saying here.

On the one hand you correctly identify the word of God (written revelation) as the message, the gospel. [the Word of God (the gospel)] The written message does tell us of the protection etc available to us.

On the other hand you say of the written revelation (the context would indicate this is what you mean) the Word IS God. The Word of God is alive,"
---Bruce5656 on 7/20/06


PART TWO:
No, the written word is not God. Jesus is the Word (the full revelation) of God. The bible does not say that the written word is alive. To suggest so would add a fourth member to the Godhead. The word is powerful only in the sense that it points to the One who has the power.

It is one thing to confess ones faith in the finished work of Christ. It is another to ascribe God status to the written word.
---Bruce5656 on 7/20/06


I thank you and Darline for you questions and I will do my best to answer the complication that occur when we go outside what is in Scripture. I am not perfect and don't understand everything but I will do my best.
---Lupe2618 on 7/20/06


5. When we speak the "Word of Truth" not the Word of faith, we give Christ to others, for their salvation. The Word is Christ that we deliver and the spirit does his work in the life of the unbeliever. He brings him to repentance, where he is now made righteous through the imputed righteousness of Christ. And his life is now influence, taught and secured till the end of his life. But the Word of Christ is not meant for us to use as a power to get what we want.
---Lupe2618 on 7/20/06


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4. Every little step we take backwards cause our believes to change. No where in Scripture does it state we can do the things that was done to validate Jesus now. How would anyone know it came from God? There is no way to prove God was at work. But when our believes begin with God then everything else falls into place in our faith. It is God's will that we follow and when man is put in his place it only shows the pride of man.
---Lupe2618 on 7/20/06


3. Now, this might not sound like a very big deal, but if you could bring someone back to life, you are ordering the spirit to leave the presence of God and return to the person you brought back to life. Now you have to concepts mixed up, one, that you can do it, two, that you call his spirit back from the presence of the Lord. Do you not see how rediculous that is. Our believes as Christians is that when we die we are with the Lord. The SDA's, Jehovah witnesses and others don't believe that.
---Lupe2618 on 7/20/06


2. Now, if you begin to add "you", then I have a problem with that. But no where in your explanation did you say anything about you. So I see nothing wrong in your statement. I know that everyone pretty much understands that. If our foundation begins with Christ everything works in its order. If that foundation is in man, then it falls apart. Take the man Jesus brought back to life that had been dead for four days. His spirit returned to him when he came to life.
---Lupe2618 on 7/20/06


Dory, I have no problem with anything you stated. From beginning to end, Everything is correct as you put it. Assurance, faith in Christ, He is the Word. All those things are correct, I never said they were not. I understand those passages very well. I have assurance in God's work for my salvation, that is why I don't believe you can lose it. it is in Him I have that assurance not on myself. It is Him in whom I trust. That is not what is talked about here.
---Lupe2618 on 7/20/06


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Pt4
My last point is to Lupe. It has to do with faith. Hebrews 11:1 says that faith "is the confident assurance that what we hope for is going to happen." (NLT). Faith is being confident, it has assurance. Anyone who resorts to begging God demonstrates a lack in confidence. Begging should never be confused with faith. It is the opposite of faith.
---DoryLory on 7/20/06


Pt3
As far as "making a demand on God" ... that principle comes from the Amplified Bible. I'm sorry, I don't have a referance verse, perhaps someone else could help us out here. However the emphasis is towards making a demand on God's Word (which is the power He has made available to us). It is not, as some infer, getting in God's face and demanding our every whim be met.
---DoryLory on 7/20/06


Pt2
We interpret Romans 1:16: the Word of God (the gospel) is the power of God available to us who believe, for protection, deliverance, health & salvation.

We know from other verses that the Word IS God. The Word of God is alive, it is powerful, it is supernatural, it is able to cause itself to come to pass (Isaiah 55:10,11). One preacher says: "The Word does the work, not the one holding onto it."

Anyone who cannot see this point, will never understand the faith teachings.
---DoryLory on 7/20/06


Pt1
Could I please make an attempt at an explaining what is central and fundamental to the faith teaching.

Romans 1:16 says: For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth".

According to Strongs, the word for salvation here literally means: rescue or safety (physically or morally): - deliverance, health, salvation, save, saving.
---DoryLory on 7/20/06


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Donna is correct; We should not argue our faith. We can state our faith, we can explain why we have the faith we have to go farther and enter into argumentation is wasteful of time and energy. Recently a group asked me to speak before them, I agree but ask why they want me to speak. And they stated simply we have checked out everything you say by studying the Bible and we thank you are correct.
---mima on 7/20/06


I'm trying to understand why someone has to keep arguing their point to make others believe them. That is wrong. You don't argue your faith, you speak it out, and people will either bear witness to the truth or they won't. When I hear truth, I receive it and believe it. It's not worth arguing over. Too much arguing going on with this question, it's ridiculous. Jesus NEVER argued, he stated the truth and people either believed him or they didn't.
---Donna9759 on 7/20/06


3. involve. But realizing how far to take this belives is up to us. That is why we study the movements. The Catholics do the same thing. Yet they do it by praying to Mary or Paul. Their "It" is the saints to get what they desire. But miss the point. It is God who we trust in our lives. It is His will that we follow. Not ourselves or saints but Christ Himself. I believe, We are not in any position to order God, we can ask God, beg God and be thankful no matter the results.
---Lupe2618 on 7/20/06


2. because we're human. He is a person that believes in the gifts but not to the point that is been taught. He knows how far a man can go and where God takes over. He is a godly man with believes as you, but is careful to not go beyoung what God allows. People don't like to talk about about this subject much, as you can see from Elder, Rev-Herb and many others. They know it effects many in the movement. Feelings are hurt and we are human and respond right away when our own personal experiences are
---Lupe2618 on 7/20/06


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Darline, you are right. Not all Pentacostals believe this nonesense. When my wife died I believe in it too. When I spoke to my pastor he told me, ultimately it was the will of God and when we see someone die, of course we feel a loss. It is natural because we are human and have a human selfishness. It is about us and "we" don't want to see them go because "we" will hurt. But death to God is a good thing because God calls them into His presence, something we will never understand
---Lupe2618 on 7/20/06


(7) when God spoke to an ill person, He spoke and it was done. What you are saying that when you speak it will happen just like Christ. Now if you look at that closely you are saying you, with your mouth you can command something to happen as He did. Don't you think that is like saying you have the same authority He has? Yes, the mouth did command something to happen in death and healing but it came from God. It was never intended as a tool for others to be equal to God.
---lee_1 on 7/20/06


(6) each day that we live we touch someone someway or some how. Every minute that God keeps us here make a difference in some way. The stuff you preach is not from God to where God gets glory, but is men-centered and for the glory of the person. Yet nothing is proven, many believe it, but not many bodies are coming out of the grave. With Jesus people were dead a few days. Not your everyday awakening.
---lee_1 on 7/20/06


(5) you would just think it and it would happen or touch them. I believe God still heals but what is taught today is not true. I think if God gave this gift to someone, that someone would have to fit the perfect example of Christ. Humbleness, no self righteous, a person very submisive to God. He would be put in the path that God want for him to be, to heal someone God saw suffering but had a job for him to still do. That healer would arrive and touch and that person would be healed.
---lee_1 on 7/20/06


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Lupe, most Pentecostals don't follow the WoF ,but Faith in the Word. Sometimes its hard to sort out who follows what. I just know most Pentecostals I've seen just follow the Word of God and do their best to live by all of it.Ha ha ,I have enough trouble trying to sort things out for myself without worrying about all the other beliefs out there. God Bless
---Darlene_1 on 7/20/06


(4) death. that is when you got personal with others that have lost loved one's. You spoke as if saying that they lack the faith you had. You know that "yes" the mouth is spoken of many times in Scripture. To give reference as to things we say and how we can hurt others with our words. How we answer when spoken to, but it never talks about with the mouth you can bring people from death, or restore limps, or a spinal cords, heck, if you had that kind power you wouldn't have to speak at all.
---lee_1 on 7/20/06


(4) that he was going to do something for God in Rome. The story told in Scripture was suddenly about a force that Paul released to make your point. Then you were asked if you meant that you were not going to die, and you answered, when your work is complete but not really saying that your life was in God's hands but in your own. So we do see through all your words what you are telling people and what you tell is not Truth from the Bible. I believe the reason it got personal was when you spoke about
---lee_1 on 7/20/06


(2) then you went on to insinuate that Alan' and Lupe's wife death could have been avoided if they are their love one's just that faith you say would have saved them and later you got a lot of flak on it and you recanted and use your testimonies as a back drop, but later you came back with Paul's story in the storm and totally crucified the story and then you backed off what you were ask about the force that he used to change the circumstances, when it was God who had already made it clear to Paul that
---lee_1 on 7/20/06


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Donna 2277, perhaps it's our background but I too don't believe healing was bought by Christ's atonement or stipes,because it was already in place in the Old Testament;I am the God that healeth thee I am thy healer. I believe though that the things Jesus did we will do greater and have seen it to be true. Haven't many of us said hurtful things without meaning to because some have misunderstood where we are coming from? I just know it hurts me to see so much confussion,we know the author of that.
---Darlene_1 on 7/20/06


Linda, You have proven something, that the "It" that you talked about releasing and making things happen with you mouth since in your opinion it was to order things to happen. In your answers from the beginning you begin to included this "It" when you were talking about illnesses and how you with your mouth could bring even people dead to life but you didn't do it because they want to go to be with the Lord.
---lee_1 on 7/20/06


Darlene--I'm Pentecostal too- baptized in the Holy Spirit, speak in tongues, believe the Gifts of the Spirit are for today. (unlike most, I don't believe that physical healing is in the atonement. But that's BESIDE the point.) There have been valid points made here by several, based on doctrine or personal experience, not just labels. But Linda seems to miss their points, preferring to write lengthy and sometimes contradictory accounts of her own spirituality...not intentionally hurtful, but not helpful.
---Donna2277 on 7/20/06


4. When I stopped writing you I did it because I didn't want to listen to your doctrines that you followed. I understood then and there that you followed some fanatic view, not like the others. I left it at that and though I would never hear from you, but here you are right back in my life. I wake up everyday to hear you say something that effects all of us that have lost someone's. I don't believe God ever got any glory, but you sure did. It is His will for us Linda that counts. Not yours.
---Lupe2618 on 7/20/06


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3. Linda, you have acused me of many things, and this is just another. If I ever said I knew your heart, it might have been when you speak words that do not edify anyone and those words that come out show the person you are when someone doesn't agree with you. They do have power to distroy but not the power you so much follow to make limps appear or bring people from the dead. There is no power you will ever have to do those things. Believe it if you want.
---Lupe2618 on 7/20/06


2. You have said enough to me for me to know what you follow. As for labeling Pentacostals, I have never labeled them but do know many within the denomination do believe a lot of the Word faith teachers and many on other denominations too. It is within the charasmatic movment more then in any other. I speak against false doctrines from the Word Faith teachers. The one's that can call God to do what they want with what they have and God will run to answer them. Those are the one's I speak against.
---Lupe2618 on 7/20/06


Linda, you continue using my name. I don't know where you heard me say I knew your heart. I don't remember ever saying I know someone's heart. Only God knows someone's heart. As a matter of fact you stated you knew mine. I don't think I responded to that acusation but I told you I was leaving this talk with you and I do mean it. Discussing things will never end because you are so could up with what you stand for. Please don't bring out my name. I don't want to answer you anymore.
---Lupe2618 on 7/20/06


Linda--I quoted you exactly. You said:

"I am sorry, but if I knew my Father would not keep me from danger if He saw it coming, I would have a hard time trusting Him."

That's what I was responding to...the "IF
He saw it coming" and the idea that your faith would be shaken if He didn't protect you (You actually made an HONEST statement here and let your WoF slip!) Never mind. You are too busy preaching to consider what others say. Someday reality will catch up to you.
---Donna2277 on 7/19/06


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I must wonder at how much that has transpired on this blog is the result of labels. It seems we are a generation where people are labeling all kinds of beliefs and with that has come much hard feelings against people who have any beliefs which are similar to those labeled ones. Some of the things Linda said are ordinary Pentecostal faith beliefs,they just never had a label,ha ha ,except maybe fanatic. I can say that, I'm Pentecostal. Maybe we shouldn't judge what we don't understand.
---Darlene_1 on 7/19/06


Lupe also, in another blog, says, "I can know your heart by your words" , yet he declares I can't know his heart by his words. That's odd to me. That is really all I have to say.
---Linda6563 on 7/19/06


Of course I can see it...and can also see that, in a way, what I believe has been proven. Lee said earlier, "Linda, you have inspired (his exact word) a spirit of hatred by your WORDS". In essence, he was saying that I had created something or made an environment he believes is hostile using the words of my mouth. I thought the words of the mouth had no power. Obviously they do.
---Linda6563 on 7/19/06


If we make our bed in hell, He is there. Notice that we make our bed there, not Him or the devil or any other person. If we take the wings of the morning, He is there too. We can take the wings or make the bed. He is there in either place.
---Linda6563 on 7/19/06


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Yes, Alan, they have...or they were the cumulative effect of originally ignoring the warning. There was an almost immediate effect and a lasting effect where I had to walk through the choice I made. I can give an example if I need to. Is God still there leading us through? Yes, and He continues to redeem us from destruction.
---Linda6563 on 7/19/06


Linda, I appreciate your heart. I am not sure that you can see how your presentation has brought sorrow to some. God's Word is true. It isn't a magic wand to fix problems. I don't think that you believe that it is either. That said, yes... we believe for the best from God, and pray accordingly. However, we aren't the ones ultimately to judge what the best from God is... only He can do that. Just some thoughts...
---daphn8897 on 7/19/06


Linda ... Thank you for rel;ating one instance where God found a new job for your husband just before his employer closed down.
But you did not answer my questions:
Whenever you ignored "warnings", did you always suffer misfortune?
Has your misfortune always followed ignored "warnings"?
---alan8869_of_UK on 7/19/06


This blog is an example of not listening. If I had listened to Father's warning from a dear sister in the Lord, it wouldn't have come to this to begin with. What a fine example. Sometimes He just wants us to deliver the word of faith instead of talk about it. And yes, if I had listened to that warning, I am sure none of what I said would have ever been twisted or misunderstood. Beause I didn't, well, you have the evidence.
---Linda6563 on 7/19/06


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Donna, I did say that God does see everything before it comes. You seem to think I didn't.

"God sees everything before it happens...everything...even our own thoughts and words before we speak them. Is He able to keep us from danger? Yes. Do we always trust Him to do so? No."
---Linda6563 on 7/19/06


Linda, IMHO, the basic mistake made by WoF may be one also known in Pauls time (11 Tim. 2:18), acting as if the resurrection had already come. It's not the ATONEMENT that protects our bodies from illness. It is the RESURRECTION, when we will be raised in an incorruptible body with HIM. Until then,our bodies and our world are damaged by sin. Even now God may heal miraculously, according to HIS Will. But some of His words we SPEAK NOW, true tho they be, will not be fulfilled until the Resurrection.
---Donna2277 on 7/19/06


I will continue to post the believes of the "Word faith" preachers in sheeps clothing and their false doctrines and will continue to fight for the Truth as Scripture commands us to do. For there will false Christ among us and we have been warned by Jesus Christ Himself.
---Lupe2618 on 7/19/06


I have even experienced some of those things myself and it was always His Word believed in my heart and embraced as truth that brought me out every time. May not have manifested instantaneously but it did happen and could not be just chalked up to "it just went away after its course was over". Even in the negative experience, I didn't base the truth of the Word on the loss but on who Jesus is and what He did. Thank you for at least looking for understanding in what I am saying.
---Linda6563 on 7/19/06


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2. I don't care to discuss personal things about my feelings or my wife's or your feelings and experiences or what you went through. When something is personal it becomes open doors for accusations. I will answer to Scripture and if you put down a Scripture to make a point, I can answer to that and that along.
---Lupe2618 on 7/19/06


If I was seeking to look down on someone, I certainly had opportunity with that sister in the Lord and wouldn't have been able to help at all if pride in me was condemning her. I want to help those people trust Christ, not hurt them and cause them to turn away.
---Linda6563 on 7/19/06


Yes, Daphne, that is exactly what I am saying. The revealed word in the heart IS the word of faith that we have believed, embraced, and trusted Father to guide us to walk in. I gather that you found understanding in the testimony I wrote. If you did, then you have seen that I am not condemning or looking down upon anyone who is sick, depressed, hurting, insane, poor, or who has died, etc. I don't even look down on sinners because I remember being in their shoes.
---Linda6563 on 7/19/06


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