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Naming Sins Out Loud In Church

Two years ago this preacher did 2 things that I'd like to know if they are biblical: #1) He brutally humiliated someone for not bowing their head and closing their eyes when he told them to; and 2) he kept saying: "I can call out your sins right here, you know I can."

Moderator - Were people being disrespectful or was it pride?

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 ---Donna9759 on 7/12/06
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Before anyone call anyone aside we should pray about. God might tell you to mind your own business.
---catherine on 3/7/07

There's a difference between a dictator and a shepherd. I believe that he should have called them to the side and had a talk with them. The dictator inflicts fear a shepherd inflicts confidence and safety and teaches the sheep in love not humiliation.
---Yolanda on 3/7/07

This preacher must have been a preacher,but certainly not a minister of God, a true minister of God will not insult people in that way I hope he had repented cor.13 say LOVE is kind and do no ill so if as a preacher he only read this chapter he would know what he did is wrong, as for the member please read and learn how we ought to be to those who have the rule over us we should obey them they are the representive of God.Berna
---BERNADETTE on 3/7/07

In the NT, and in the early Church confessing your sins was a public matter; however, berating someone and forcing them to confess is neither Biblical nor Christlike. I do not know the circumstances that led up to this moment or if this was a character trait in the preacher, but the preacher needs to confess his own sins and revisit the gospel before he returns to his ministry. As for the person he humiliated, the same advice is probably good.
---lorra8574 on 3/7/07

That was not a preacher and that is not Bibical.
---Lloyd_Jones on 3/7/07

I do not have to look this up. It is not Biblical. It is Unholy, Not walking in Love, It is not Jesus, Need I say more. And that makes me angry. [Holy Anger]
---catherine on 3/7/07

Donna, I hear you, and I do not judge you, I have seen Preachers, and Priests like this, It is disgusting. It harms the entire church. Religious Spirits, are NOTORIOUS for masquerading as christians, God is separating the wheat from the tares, they both look the same but when wheat is mature it bows humble, but the tare gets PROUD the wheat is humble but tare will grow straight up, never bowing humbly. Sounds like this Preacher needs a deliverence.
---Cynthia_1 on 3/7/07

Sounds like a power struggle...and manipulation.
---Linda6563 on 3/7/07

Jesus called people snakes, fools, hypocrites,devils and sons of Hell in public and he said the things I do ye shall do also. But I am sure Jesus was just having a bad day he did not mean to say those things.
Or did he?
---Exzucuh on 7/14/06

mi ma, your comment is ridiculous. I was trying NOT to judge him. I am so afraid to say that what he did was wrong because I know people here will jump to conclusions and say I am judging him. I do NOT condone humiliating someone in public just because they didn't bow their heads when told to. But if I suggest a strong opinion on this site, people say you're judgemental and criticizing. That's why I'm careful to what blogs I respond to and what I say on here. So I was just trying NOT to be judgemental.
---Donna9759 on 7/14/06

Donna, thank you for the explanation of what actually happened. I have been in 2 meetings where that has happened, huge tent meetings with thousands there though, so the rebukes were not so personal. I think that men holding meetings where people are asked to raise their hands should just remember that there will be some, possibly many, who have never attended such an event before. They will keep their heads up and eyes open out of curiosity to see what is happening. They should not be rebuked.
---f.f. on 7/14/06

Thank you for the further explanation. With what information we have been given, I do not believe there is any possible way to justify what he did. Like I said, what would Jesus do?

When a speaker asks for "heads bowed and eyes closed" during an appeal, it is a request for courtesy to the respondent's privacy. If someone chooses not to participate in that, well, frankly, tough. That is between them and their conscience not them and the speaker.
---Bruce5656 on 7/13/06

A lot of people use this scripture about the woman in adultry, she was not born again and had not tasted of the heavenly gift nor had she ever walked in the Spirit, she was of the world and her accusers were of the devil. Jesus did not come to Judge the world but save them, those in the Church and under the blood walk on the blood of jesus when they willfully sin to continue makes them children of disobedience and the wrath of God will come on them.
---Exzucuh on 7/13/06

To Donna; " He didn't pick on me, so I'm okay with him" this sounds very much like what the German people said when the Nazi begin rounding up the Jews---
---mima on 7/13/06

There are a lot of things people do that offend other people. I have no Idea what was being dealt with in that service nor do I judge the minister,but Jesus said that we must overcome these offenses until we do we are not mature and cannot have the authority we need, children have no authority. To grow up in Christ is to overcome.
---Exzucuh on 7/13/06

Jesus' exact words were, "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." Then He began to write on the ground again. When they that heard it were convicted by their own consciences, they began to go out. Do you know why? Because Jesus was the only one among them without sin and He didn't cast a stone at her. What a beautiful picture of the grace and truth found in Jesus, the express image of the Father.
---Linda6563 on 7/13/06

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Actually Moses, Jesus didn't immediately speak to those who brought the woman. This was the exchange:

Joh 8:6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
Joh 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
---Linda6563 on 7/13/06

Well, at least my question has drawn out a bit more of what happened! OK He needed to look at the assembled people at that point, but the way in which he humiliated the person was wrong
---alan8869_of_UK on 7/13/06

Jesus asked the accusers of the woman caught in adultery of who could cast the first stone......
---moses on 7/13/06

In other words, there was a Christ way of handling this without "calling down" the woman or "calling out" her sins...or even threatening to. That is still manipulation no matter how you look at it and manipulation is demonic, sensual, earthly wisdom in operation. The way the question was originally worded, I "assumed" that the man was praying over the people.
---Linda6563 on 7/13/06

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In light of the new information, I don't believe he was out of order to ask people to bow their heads or close their eyes. Our Pastor does that. I don't agree with how he handled it though. Humiliation is not of Christ.
---Linda6563 on 7/13/06

The point of saying what I did was to remind even myself that praying amiss happens a whole lot more than we think.
---Linda6563 on 7/13/06

Donna, I was making reference to the question Alan asked re: him not bowing his own head or closing his own eyes. I am assuming that the man was himself "praying", possibly over the people. Prayer is communication with God, not with man and one who has his focus on man while "praying" to God is not really communicating with God, is he? He is looking for people response to his prayer instead of God response.
---Linda6563 on 7/13/06

alan of UK - He had asked the congregation to bow their heads and then he asked if anyone didn't know Jesus to raise their hands. He saw this particular woman not bowing her head and he didn't want her seeing who raised their hands, so he humiliated her for 20 minutes in front of everyone, she ended up crying and eventually she walked out of the meeting.
---Donna9759 on 7/13/06

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Linda, did you mean this to go under another blog? What are you referring to here?
LINDA: First of all, that is not prayer. Second of all, that is not petitioning the One who can change the person, and third, it is demonic wisdom that is earthly and sensual.
---Donna9759 on 7/13/06

Galatians 6:1 Said it BEST...
If You see your Bro. overtaken in a Fault ye that are Spiritual Restore such a one in the Spirit of Meekness considering Yourselves lest You be Tempted. We are called to cover our Bro and Sis Blind Spots, and called to a Mininstry of Reconciliation unto Christ JESUS! There is always a Deeper Issue for the ACTIONS of PEOPLE!
---Renatta on 7/13/06

We as Believer's have to be Mindful that we are called to Judge the Righteouss Judgemnet, and Preception is always Reality. Actions or Deeds can Deeply Wound a Babe in Christ. It is not our God Calling to Critisize, but to Pray for Our Bro and Sis in Christ Jesus.
---Renatta on 7/13/06

In a very specific aspect of our life right now, I almost feel like we NEED that. However, I am content to wait and am not seeking that. Father knows our hearts and He knows where we are and He knows exactly how to guide us not only to the "word of knowledge" but also to the fullness of Christ.
---Linda6563 on 7/13/06

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I, for one, still believe in the five-fold ministry for the purpose of growing us up. If this man is established five-fold ministry in their lives, then he is to be received as such, even in light of his past mistakes. Father has a way of bringing us to the place where we seek His heart and not His hand. And yes, I certainly don't mind a word of knowledge every now and then.
---Linda6563 on 7/13/06

What if this was an opportunity for them to "discover" that there is more than hearing it from another man? Actually, if it is by the Spirit, it is Christ and not man though it come through a man. It is faith to receive it that way. What if they go and don't get that word from that speaker? What if that caused them to seek God themselves...or realize that that word can come through someone they would never even dreamed it would come through?
---Linda6563 on 7/13/06

Donna, although it is wise and wonderful to come to the place where we desire to seek and hear God for ourselves, we do have to realize that there are those who aren't there yet. It is God who grows us up to the place where we, like the Shulamite, say, "The companions hearken to thy voice; cause me to hear it."
---Linda6563 on 7/13/06

First of all, that is not prayer. Second of all, that is not petitioning the One who can change the person, and third, it is demonic wisdom that is earthly and sensual.
---Linda6563 on 7/13/06

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Good question Alan. How DID he know their heads weren't bowed unless he were "praying for them" with his own eyes open to watch for their reaction to his ummmm....prayer? Over the years, I have learned that sometimes our prayers are directed to people instead of unto God. What I mean by that is that we open our mouths in the presence of one we know is caught in the thing we are "praying" about, hoping he/she will "hear" and change.
---Linda6563 on 7/13/06

Thank you for that further explanation. I believe Linda has given you the Godly advice that you seek.
---Bruce5656 on 7/13/06

Linda, my friends want to go back this year because they think he will have a word of knowledge for them. I believe that's a wrong motive for wanting to go hear a special speaker, but people don't know how to seek God for a word from Him, and Him alone, so they look to preachers to do it for them. I have no problem with that. Hey, we all like getting words of knowledge, don't we?
---Donna9759 on 7/13/06

I find it ironic that someone will focus on a fact, how many years, instead of addressing the issue. Why not ask first before making a judgemental statement first becky? Typical to take the focus off the issue and zoom in on one small detail that can be explained immediately. Jesus knew people in bondage were in bondage for MANY years, yet he never said, why did you wait so long to pray for healing? Why do we assume the worst and think someone is dredging up something from the past for no reason at all?
---Donna9759 on 7/13/06

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I wonder how it was that the preacher knew that one or more of the congregation was now bowing the head? Perhaps he was not following his own rules? Was he putting himself in the place of God?
---alan8869_of_UK on 7/13/06

If he's back in town temporarily and some of his former members wish to see him let them go. Those who don't want to do so should just stay away. If he is a guest speaker at your church, having been away for some time, you still don't need to go. Pray about it and then do what the Lord leads you to do.
---emg on 7/13/06

And I wouldn't be afraid of him either if I did go. Should he start "naming sins", he may not be in the right but one's security in Christ should prevail over the spirit, the soul, and the body in such a way as not to direct even more attention to him. That is making him way too important in light of the things we know of Christ. If the Spirit is leading you to go, go. If not, don't and don't worry about what your friends think about your not being there.
---Linda6563 on 7/13/06

If your friends are wanting to go see him again, then obviously they either 1) were never bothered with it to begin with or 2) have forgiven him or 3) believe that God can do a lot with a man in 2 years. I wouldn't confine him to prison for something he did 2 years ago. I have had attitudes and motives to change in the twinkling of an eye and really appreciated it when folks didn't hold what I did 1 second before against me.
---Linda6563 on 7/13/06

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Linda, that's exactly what I told my friends because they want to go back to see him this year. I was sitting all the way in the back, hoping he wouldn't see me and call out my sins. My entire body was shaking and I wanted to leave. I stayed because I didn't want him rebuking me for leaving early. I am concerned because my friends are going back this year and they think I'm in error for not wanting to. So of course I'm the one in error according to them. See why I'm asking for Godly advice here?
---Donna9759 on 7/13/06

Bruce, because he's back in town and I might go see him again. He didn't pick on me, so I'm okay with him, but I did feel sorry for the people he did pick on.
---Donna9759 on 7/13/06

good question bruce.........two years is a long time to ponder something so obvious..and then to turn around and do the same here by bringing it up publicly
---becky on 7/13/06

If I ask the congregation to bow their heads and close their eyes so someone else can deal with the Lord in a public forum privately with no one watching why would that be wrong?
Every since I have been on CN and a question comes up about a Pastor the answer is always the same. Get a new Pastor. It makes no difference if the members are wrong. He is to show mercy but they are to get a "new one."
Maybe the whole problem is that people are rebellious and have no idea what God wants.
---Elder on 7/13/06

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That is how people are chased away from certain churches if the humiliation becomes unbearable.I can relate because one time my husband had gone to church in painting clothes,he had just got off work and had no time to change.We were told we should only stand before the lord in our finest clothes not our work clothes.If we were dressed in gold robes it would not matter to Jesus.He loves us for our intentions,not our imperfections.
---stacie on 7/13/06

What a shame someone didn't think of standing up and shouting back at him "What right have YOU to be remembering those things which even GOD has forgiven AND forgotten?"
---M.P. on 7/13/06

Am appalled!!Christ would never humiliate anyone.
---pkay on 7/13/06

The behavior of this preacher is cruel, and controlling. Why would he purposely humiliate a member? If he had been doing what he told, (not asked in love) them to do, how would he know someone wasn't doing it? It seems he's sending a message to the entire congregation, implying he has done it before, and it wouldn't be a problem to do it again.
There is nothing biblical about belittling, harrassing behavior that puts others in bondage.
He should be taken before the elders of the church.
---lynet on 7/12/06

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Why are you bringing this up two years later?

Incidently, just ask yourself, would Jesus do that? and you will have your answer.
---Bruce5656 on 7/12/06

Sounds like it is time to find a new pastor.
---Madison1101 on 7/12/06

Moderator ... from what we have been told, it seems to me that it was the preacher who was being disrespectful and proud.
---alan8869_of_UK on 7/12/06

Sounds revolting. That is manipulation on the part of the preacher. Children of God are not to be humiliated. If correction is needed it is to be done in love.
---Helen_5378 on 7/12/06

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I admit a person should bow their heads when praying but that isn't a requirement from God. He is in the wrong for saying that he can call out someone's sins. He can't call someone out because of sin when in fact the preacher has sin in his life.
---Rebecca_D on 7/12/06

Donna, I really believe my first question would be why make a threat like that? What purpose does it serve except to draw attention to the person he was speaking to and to the fact that he appeared to know more than folks thought he did? I am concerned for those who take delight in humiliating other people for any reason. Folks who draw attention to the sins of others are usually hiding a few of their own...the finger pointing just makes them feel better about it.
---Linda6563 on 7/12/06

Sounds like someone was way out of line here. If the church member was being rebellious, I'd expect the pastor to speak to him privately, face to face..imposing limitations on him if it was necessary. Otherwise, not bowing ones head or closing one's eyes seems hardly worthy of public humiliation and/or intimidation. Don't know the particulars, but normally the shepherd does not beat the sheep. He cares for them in love.
---Donna2277 on 7/12/06

Sounds like manipulation to me. Just maybe he was under conviction and was having a battle with in himself. So wonder sinners don't want to go to our churches.
---shira on 7/12/06

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There are stories of people who VOLUNTARILY confessed their sins before the congregation, but this is clearly not the same thing.

FWIW, in the present Yom Kippur rite, there is a general confession the congregation says in the plural ("We have...", not "I have.."), listing two sins for each letter of the Hebrew alphabet--specific, yet simultaneously anonymous.
---Jack on 7/12/06

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