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Was Jesus Lower Than An Angel

Psalm 8:5; Hebrews 2:7 and 9 all use the phrase 'made a little lower than the angels' to describe Jesus. What does this actually mean? I cannot understand how Jesus could ever have been lower than the angels. Could this be a mis-translation or have I misunderstood something?

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Laura, I'm not saying Jesus was an angel while on earth. I agree with Paul, who wrote Jesus was 'made a little lower than angels'. Jesus was a human when on earth, a man, not an angel. Where have I contradicted myself?

That's exactly why Jesus came as a man- to die on our behalf, and not as a 'Spirit' as AlmightyGod is (Jo.4:24).

In fact Peter said Jesus was 'put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit'- 1 Pe.3:18. This makes no sense if Jesus were both flesh and spirit before he died.

I agree faithful angels will not die. However, angels who have sinned are reserved for judgment- "God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned (in Noah's day)... to be reserved for judgment". 2 Pe.2:4.
---David8318 on 6/7/10


Part 2 Please print!

Exodus 7:1. "Behold I have made you an Elohim to Pharaoh,......

This is what I mean about Prepositional phrases being VERY IMPORTANT...for without TO PHARAOH how easy it is to take this totally out of Context.

Therefore God did not say "Behold I will make you an Elohim, or I will make you a God."


Context, Context, Context!!!!
---kathr4453 on 6/7/10


"Sit thou at My right hand, until I make thine enemies they footstool" This prediction refers to the ultimate triumph of Christ MarkV

I Agree that this applies to Christ.

Question- Since that is the case, does Christ still have his earthly 'nature' with him in heaven? Is he still 'fully God' and 'fully man'?

How do you explain that he is not described as God himself sitting on HIS heavenly throne? Rather he is on God's 'right hand' Can God sit at his own right hand? Please explain.

Why, although Christ is no longer on earth in this account, does the Father still exercise authority over the Son? The Father tells the Son to 'sit thou', not the other way around.
---scott on 6/7/10


"No where does scripture ever say Moses was EQUAL to God." kathr4453

I appreciate your comment and of course I agree.

The point being, very often trinitarians employ this line of reasoning to suggest that Christ is the Almighty. If this conclusion is true, it would take something other than the misuse of the Hebrew word 'Elohim' to make such a case.

To follow (as time allows) a response to Phil 2:6.
---scott on 6/7/10


My Bible says the following about Jesus,
Hebrews 1:4 "Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they."


The Bible also says this about man,
Hebrews 2:6-7," 6-But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man that thou visitest him?

7-Thou madest him a little lower than the angels, thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:"

---mima on 6/7/10




God is Messiah.

...unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder...and his name shall be called... The mighty God, The everlasting Father... Isaiah 9:6

Jesus is Messiah.

The woman saith unto him, I know that Messiah cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he. John 4:25-26
---Laura on 6/7/10


Agreed. But if this is your conclusion regarding Moses and Jehovah's reference to him as (not 'like' but) 'God', why do you draw a different conclusion when the exact same language is applied to Christ?

-----
---scott on 6/7/10

No where does Exodus say God made Moses LIKE God, or made him God in any way shape or form. No where does scripture ever say Moses was EQUAL to God. However Phil 2 clearly state Jesus is equal to God, but He( Jesus) made Himself of NO REPUTATION. Jesus while on earth became obedient UNTO DEATH of the Cross.

FOR GOD so loved the world that HE GAVE His only Begotten Son . There is only ONE Begotten Son. Gabriel, Michael( More than one here) were created...not begotten!!!!
---kathr4453 on 6/7/10


"God for His purpose made Moses as God not God. By making him a spokesman and ambssador for God, and would speak with authority and power." MarkV 6/7/1

Agreed. But if this is your conclusion regarding Moses and Jehovah's reference to him as (not 'like' but) 'God', why do you draw a different conclusion when the exact same language is applied to Christ?

Could that apparent inconsistency and contradiction be theologically driven?
---scott on 6/7/10


MarkV,

Where in the Hebrew (Ex 7:1) does the Almighty (YHWH) say that Moses is "like" God?
---scott on 6/7/10


Elohim is used numerous times throughout scripture to refer to pagan gods and in most of these instances it is a numerical plural denoting multiple (false) gods.

When scripture is speaks about pagan gods it uses Elohim as a numerical plural meaning "gods".

Exodus 7:1. "Behold I have made you an Elohim to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet" Certainly this does not mean that God made Moses into a god, but rather that he would speak to Pharaoh with authority through Aaron who would serve as his mouth-piece in the way that the prophets serve as the mouth-pieces of YHWH.

Nor does it say God turned Moses into multiple gods.
---kathr4453 on 6/7/10




Scott, context, context. God for His purpose made Moses as God not God. By making him a spokesman and ambssador for God, and would speak with authority and power. Aaron, as the divinely appointed spokesmen for Moses, would forthrightly deliver the message given to him. In (Acts 14:11-13) Barnabas and Paul were so perceived in a similar situation.
In the case of Christ, He was not only considered Elohim, and Jehovah, but also Adoni. In Ps. 110:1 is a clear reference to the second person of the trinity,
"Jehovah saith unto My Lord, Sit thou at My right hand, until I make thine enemies they footstool" This prediction refers to the ultimate triumph of Christ over His enemies and is quoted frequently as fufilled in Christ.
---MarkV. on 6/7/10


"It is apparent that Elohim in the Old Testament is God in the New Testament (theos). Hence all passages in the New Testament refering to Christ by this title link Him with the Elohim of the Old Testament."MarkV 6/7/10

Moses is called 'Elohim' at Exodus 7:1.

Does this somehow identify Moses as the Almighty? Are Christ and Moses one and the same, linked together by the title 'Elohim?
---scott on 6/7/10


aka.joseph

If I understand your argument, you seem to be suggesting that when someone abandons his previous religious affiliation, then his newly acquired enlightenment (and his criticism of the previous affiliation) should be accepted as unbiased and factual...without question. I would disagree. ("Wise as serpents, innocent as doves." Matt 10:16 RSV)

For example, I was raised as a baptist and now, through study and prayer, I feel whole-heartedly that they do not reflect the teachings of first century christianity.

Since that is my strong belief and I have expressed that to you...do you also believe it to be true...without question? Should I save a seat for you at the Kingdom Hall on Sunday?
---scott on 6/7/10


David, what you don't realize we( Born Again Believers) are Baptized into Christ. Now you say Michael is Christ correct...Christ means Messiah. Jesus IS THE CHRIST!!!

Now we as believers(This is our Christian Faith) that we IDENTIFY with Him in Death and resurrection life, therefore being Baptized INTO CHRIST, becoming members of Him, He is Head, we are His members or Body.

Do your actually believe you are baptized into an angel, becoming a member of an angels body?

Are you close to the Mormon belief that you are angels?


You argue that God cannot die, however angels cannot die either. So if an angel can take on the form of man...why is it you say God cannot? are Angels more powerful than God?
---kathr4453 on 6/7/10


David, you try to confuse the topic of Jesus by refering to his human nature and not His Godly nature. How can you understand when all you do is attack His human nature? We are told that Christ was "foreknown indeed as a sacrifice for sin before the foundation of the world" 1 Peter 1:20. Paul speaks of the eternal purpose which was purposed in Jesus Christ our Lord' Eph. 3:11. Many passages link Christ with the name Jehovah. In Zechariah 12:10 where Jehovah is speaking, the discription is to be applied clearly to Christ. Rev. 1:7 describes Christ in the same language. Jerimiah 23:5-6 Christ is declared to be "Jehovah our righteousness" Christ is also indentified as Elohim of the Old Testament.
---MarkV. on 6/7/10


David 2: In isaiah 40:3 Christ is spoken of as both Jehovah and Elohim (Luke 3:4). In Isaiah 9:6-7 Christ is called "the mighty God (Elohim). It is apparent that Elohim in the Old Testament is God in the New Testament (theos). Hence all passages in the New Testament refering to Christ by this title link Him with the Elohim of the Old Testament. If Christ is the Elohim of the Old Testament, it also follows that He is the One introduced in Genesis 1:1 as the God of creation and in the hundreds of other instances of Elohim in the Old Testament.
---MarkV. on 6/7/10


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Given that the Almighty God cannot die as He is eternal, and that Jesus said 'God is a Spirit' (Jo.4:24), it will be difficult for anyone to prove by scripture that Almighty God could have been 'made lower than angels' to die on our behalf.

I agree kathr- ask the question. There is more scriptural proof that Michael is the pre-human Jesus than Almighty God coming as the Messiah.
---David8318 on 6/5/10


David8318, what do you mean by PRE-human or that Michael is the pre-human Jesus.

Being made lower than the Angels was for the suffering of death, because Angels cannot die.

David8316, you seem to be contradicting yourself or you don't know all JW's beliefs. How long have you been a JW?
---Laura on 6/7/10


Scott,

At first, you tried to discredit the ex-JW's witness by a report by Bryan Wilson, Ph.D., Oxford, which said that an apostate is not creditable. An apostate is somebody who renounces a belief or allegiance. Then, I pointed out that William Miller, the founder of the JWs, was a Baptist lay preacher who, in the year 1816, began proclaiming that Christ would return in 1843. By definition, wasn't he apostate?

David8318's response is priceless, "I usually exercise extreme caution when communicating with anyone likely to be apostate or have apostate tendencies of any nature."

So, should you.
---aka.joseph on 6/7/10


John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
There was never a time when God was fatherless, wisdomless, or wordless.
---micha9344 on 6/5/10


Micha9344, why did you stop quoting from NWT when you got to Isaiah 42:8?

"I am Jehovah. That is my name, and to no one else shall I give my own glory". Is.42:8. (Interesting the translation you did use for this verse uses 'LORD' in capitals to identify where the Hebrew Tetragrammaton YHWH representing God's name Jehovah appears)

Jehovah doesn't share his throne with anyone, not even an angel.

Are you assuming I believe Jehovah shares his throne with Jesus? If you are then your assumption is incorrect as Isaiah 42:8 clearly shows.

Again the trinity doctrine confuses the identity of AlmightyGod Jehovah and his Son, Jesus Christ. When in reality there is no confusion because the Bible doesn't teach trinity.
---David8318 on 6/5/10


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John 1-3,14a In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. This one was in [the] beginning with God. All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. So the Word became flesh and resided among us
Heb 1:5 For example, to which one of the angels did he ever say: You are my son, I, today, I have become your father? And again: I myself shall become his father, and he himself will become my son? NWT
Isa 42:8 I [am] the LORD: that [is] my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
--There is more scriptural proof that Michael is the pre-human Jesus-David8318 on 6/5/10
a God/angel is not sharing God's throne.
---micha9344 on 6/5/10


Laura, where have I said 'Michael the Archangel' or 'a god' created the heavens and the earth? I have neither written anything like this nor do I believe this, as it is unscriptural. I believe as with kathr4453, that the confusion is all yours.

Scripture does not teach Jesus or Michael to be the Creator, only YHWH/Jehovah is the Creator. Just for the record, Jehovah and Jesus are 2 separate beings. Jehovah is the Creator, Jesus is His son- "the Son of God"- John 1:34. The Bible does not teach the Babylonian trinity.

Jesus, Jehovah God's son was 'made lower than angels'. Almighty God Jehovah the Creator is not 'made' anything, let alone made 'lower than angels'.
---David8318 on 6/5/10


Scott- I am happy to hear that you are studying the Bible. It's so encouraging- really, it's fantastic.

I usually exercise extreme caution when communicating with anyone likely to be apostate or have apostate tendencies of any nature (2 John 9-11).

Your defense of the truth and your comments are always enjoyable to read.
---David8318 on 6/5/10


Mac who posted the original blog question also appears to be a trinitarian and like kathr4453 and Laura, finds the truth that Jesus was 'made lower than the angels' confusing. Evidence that scriptural 'truth', is beyond the grasp of the trinitarian mind.

Mac asks, 'Could this be a mis-translation or have I misunderstood something?'

A mistranslation because mac knows Almighty God the Creator cannot be 'made lower than the angels'. So it must be mac (and trinitarians as a whole) have misunderstood something.

And that is Jesus is NOT Almighty God, because God cannot be made lower than angels. Jesus, the 'first born' of all of Jehovah God's creation was however, 'made (by Jehovah) lower than the angels'.
---David8318 on 6/5/10


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Kathr- it is not me who compares Jesus with Adam. It's the Apostle Paul at 1 Corinthians 15:45. That's the whole idea of the death of Christ, which only a human man could provide, a Biblical truth which is beyond the grasp of your trinitarian/Babylonian mind.

That is why John said it's anti-Christ to teach Jesus is anything other than flesh (1 John 4:2,3). Almighty God Jehovah is eternal and cannot die. Jesus Christ the 'last Adam' had to die to pay for the sin of the 'first Adam'.

I did not say Jesus is fully angel and fully man. The confusion is all yours kathr. Neither have I said anything about worshipping angels or Jesus. Quoting Deuteronomy 10:20 Jesus said, 'it is YHWH (Jehovah) your God you must worship' (Mt.4:10).
---David8318 on 6/5/10


aka.joseph,

I may be missing something (wouldn't be the first time) but are you suggesting that we take the words of an 'apostate' (from any organization) 'sine quaestione'? (without question)?

Wouldn't the wise course be to follow the example of the Beroeans who..."searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so"? Acts 17:11, 1 Thess 5:21

This is the point the Dr. made- that the comments of an apostate should be viewed with a healthy amount of skepticism.

That doesn't mean that the apostate's words are necessarily untrue (that's for you to decide) but just because someone abandons his faith and speaks out against it doesn't make his statements and accusations necessarily true either.
---scott on 6/5/10


Kathr4453 asks- "Where do you see any scripture stating Michael was to become the messiah?"

Ok, well where does the Bible prophesy the Almighty God was to become the messiah? Which scriptures do trinitarians point to, to show Almighty God, YHWH was to come as the Messiah and die on our behalf?

Given that the Almighty God cannot die as He is eternal, and that Jesus said 'God is a Spirit' (Jo.4:24), it will be difficult for anyone to prove by scripture that Almighty God could have been 'made lower than angels' to die on our behalf.

I agree kathr- ask the question. There is more scriptural proof that Michael is the pre-human Jesus than Almighty God coming as the Messiah.
---David8318 on 6/5/10


scott, again I will define apostate- somebody who renounces belief: somebody who renounces a belief or allegiance

//comments refer to those abandoning and speaking out against a religious order or organization that they had formerly been a part of//

What about the early Americans...what about Martin Luther...what about the first founder of the JWs, William Miller? He was a Baptist lay preacher who, in the year 1816, began proclaiming that Christ would return in 1843. His predictions of the Second Coming or Second Advent captured the imagination of thousands in Baptist and other mainline churches. Was he trying to build his self esteem?
---aka.joseph on 6/4/10


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kathr4453 "Questioning"

Yes, and when many 'questioned' the authority of the Catholic church at the time of the inquisition, the reformation, etc., how did the church respond?

With great empathy and compassion? Or with kindling and a match?
---scott on 6/4/10


aka.joseph

Not sure I follow your argument.

The doctors comments refer to those abandoning and speaking out against a religious order or organization that they had formerly been a part of.

6 million Jews did not 'apostatize' or abandon Judaism. (BTW thousands of Jehovah's Witnesses were also in concentrations camps, hundreds lost their lives for rejecting Nazism. They were violently persecuted for speaking out when the majority of churches remained silent).
---scott on 6/4/10


MarkV.

I've been to several meetings myself. It's been my experience (hopefully you agree that yours is not the only experience that matters) that the scriptures are constantly referred to and examined even commented on by the audience. That's my experience, one that I did not have, BTW, with the Baptist church I was raised in.
---scott on 6/4/10


I find it horribly sad that these people are not allowed to QUESTION? If only those following Jim Jones QUESTIONED!!! If only those who committed suicide in hopes of leaving on a comet QUESTIONED!

Cults are the ONLY ones who do not let anyone question. David, that is a red flag like no other. WHO or what man gives any man the right to tell you not to question other men.

We are to be good Bereans and search for ourselves the scriptures to see if what others say is true.

One day every knee will bow and Confess Jesus Christ is LORD to the Glory of the Father, and we know God said there are be no other gods before me....THAT should say it all!!!
---kathr4453 on 6/4/10


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David8316, Genesis 1:1 does not say, In the beginning Michael the Arch-Angel created the heavens and earth. It also does not say " a god" created the heavens and earth. Angels are incapable of creating anything.

Also,

Heb.1:4 "having become so much better than the angels." How can he be better than angels if he is an angel? He already was better in nature before his incarnation as the very one who created all the angels. Col.1:14-17 and John.1:3.

Are you also suggesting Angels can create other Angels? If so, please explain how? Angels cannot procreate.
---Laura on 6/4/10


Jesus was the 'last Adam', a perfect man as the 'first Adam' was, 1 Cor.15:45. -------David8318 on 6/4/10

David, the first Adam was created out of CLAY. God breathed into Adams nostrils and he became a living SOUL. How can you compare that to Jesus. God did not create another Adam (who is Jesus) out of the dust of the earth. Hebrews tells us Christ took on the seed of ABRAHAM. So then we have Christ, of the seed of Abraham of the Seed of DAVID of the tribe of JUDAH! .

Where do you see any scripture stating Michael was to become the messiah?

How then did Michael become MAN? And where does scripture say Jesus is fully Angel fully Man?

Angels were created, and in Rev, man is not to worship Angels !
---kathr4453 on 6/4/10


Scott, let me say from experience that the "members" do not study Scripture at meetings, Meeting include the congregation book study and the neighborhood book study. One of the hardbounds books is studied in Watchtower fashion. The questions are provided on the pages and the answer is in the text. Again the Bible itself is not studied. In fact it is so important to understand that point, that never in the history was the Bible itself been studied. The movement began through the writing of man and his interpretation of the Bible. The bible at best is a referance book, secondary to the publications of the "Slave." "the Watchtower." Saturday's and Sunday's are house-to house work on what they studied.
---MarkV. on 6/4/10


scott,

apostate- somebody who renounces belief: somebody who renounces a belief or allegiance

Are you trying to say that 6 million Jews are not creditable because they renounced belief in Nazism?

Are you trying to say that a woman who has been battered for 10 years is only trying to rebuild her self esteem through sensationalism because she no longer believes in a marriage based on brutality?

I did not say that they were not versed in other versions. In order to refute something you should know it very well. The New World Translation that they translated is a departure which is made to support their own beliefs. However, they are not allowed to interpret or challenge Watchtower teachings using Scripture.
---aka.joseph on 6/4/10


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aka.joseph,

I know enough about Witnesses (I'm currently studying with them) to tell you that not everything that this 'ex-witness' has written is true.

You would have to be more specific when you refer to 'mov(ing) away from WT theology'.

I know many who were JW at one time and are not now. None of them were disfellowshipped for that decision. Although, at the same time, God's word does seem to allow for disfellowshipping (1 Corinthians 5:13).

Not into 'bible translation'? - wildly inaccurate. Many witnesses are fluent and well-versed in the the biblical languages. Most have numerous translations for comparison. Some have published books on topics related to bible translation and biblical apologetics.
---scott on 6/4/10


Aka, ex-anything

"Neither the objective sociological researcher nor the court of law can readily regard the apostate as a creditable or reliable source of evidence. He must always be seen as one whose personal history predisposes him to bias with respect to both his previous religious commitment and affiliations...

...he acts from a personal motivation to vindicate himself and to regain his self-esteem, by showing himself to have been first a victim but subsequently...a redeemed crusader. He is likely to be suggestible and ready to enlarge or embellish his grievances to satisfy that species of journalist whose interest is more in sensational copy than in a objective statement of the truth." Bryan Wilson, Ph.D., Oxford
---scott on 6/4/10


Jesus was fully man, and that is lower than an an Angel.
Jesus was treated in a manner in which no Angel has ever been treated

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour, that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

So yes he was made lower than an angel.
He was human, he suffered pain, and humiliation and then death.

This text does not say that Jesus was a created being.

No angel has ever been made to suffer in that fashion
---francis on 6/4/10


So many people try to dig so deep into the word and they usually pull out something GOD never put in it.
GOD is not the author of confusion so he wouldn't make the bible to where only a small percentage of people could understand it.
---Travis on 5/27/10

He is not the author of confusion...but,confused people try to teach their confused scripture.
Not all understand and were never meant too....so your last part is partly wrong.

Matthew 13:13
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not, and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Evident on this site. Very few. No actually..no prophets are acknowledged in for witness/support of denom New covenant doctrine here.
---Trav on 6/4/10


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It's also the Bible.

As it is written in John 1: "God was the Word [kai theos in o logos]... And the Logos was made flesh and dwelt among us..."
---Cluny on 5/29/10

Nice....
---Trav on 6/4/10


Warwick- scripture does not teach God came in the flesh.

1 Tim.3:16 refers to Jesus when it says 'He was made manifest in the flesh'.

John 1:14 says 'the Word became flesh' (John 1:1 says 'the Word was a god', 1:18 says 'no man has seen God'. Context Warwick, always context).

Yes Jesus was the 'archangel', but Paul says Jesus was 'made lower than angels'. Jesus gave up his divine nature, and came 'in the likeness of men'. So your assumptions are incorrect. Jesus was a human being, flesh and blood when on earth.

Jesus was the 'last Adam', a perfect man as the 'first Adam' was, 1 Cor.15:45. Jesus said 'God is a Spirit'- John 4:24. Almighty God has never been 'made lower than angels' or anything else.
---David8318 on 6/4/10


Aka, I totally agree with your advice. I know it's the Watchtower teachings that that are responsible. As I mentioned before my sister was a J.W. and she died for refusing the blood to save her life. I studied their teachings for five years so that I could understand where she was coming from, and wanted to one day confront her with the gospel of Christ, but she died at 52 years before I ever talked to her. I know how it effected my mom, me and all her friends. My uncle Tony was also a Witness but he was very different then my sister. My sister was a fanatic. Even my uncle disagreed with a lot of the things she was doing. He also died refusing the blood. We cannot convince them of the Truth, the Holy Spirit has to make Christ known to them.
---MarkV. on 6/4/10


MakV, I was reading an article written by an ex-JW on how to witness to JWs. The number one suggestion that he gave is always to remember that these people are husbands, wives, sons, and daughters. If they are convicted and start to move away from Watchtower theology, they are excommunicated.

This excommunication does not simply mean they can find another church, it means absolutely no contact with family members who stay in the Society. Think of the ramifications to a child or spouse who was brought up in this only.

They are not into bible interpretation. They can only regurgetate what the Watchtower Society says. So, it is not David that speaks falsely, it is the Society that speaks falsely. Try to keep them separate.
---aka.joseph on 6/4/10


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Hbr 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels,
Philippians 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Who made Jesus of no reputation? Who made Jesus a little lower than angels?
Some people don't know the real Jesus.
John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father, and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?
Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
---micha9344 on 6/4/10


So kathr4453 applies Hebrews 2:7-9 to Almighty God. Kathr and her Neo-Platonic friends teach that Almighty God was 'made less or inferior', even 'made less in authority'.

What Neo-Platonists cannot distinguish is the difference between Jesus (God's Son) and the Almighty God. Hebrews 2:7-9 apply to God's Son who is 'made less, inferior, or in auhority' IN RELATION to Almighty God Jehovah.

Kathr on the other hand wrongly teaches that it is Almighty God who is 'made less' in authority. God is made 'less in authority' in relation to who?

Almighty God IS the authority to whom Jesus is 'made less'.
---David8318 on 6/4/10


You believe Jesus was an angel. How can an angel die, and save man?


---Warwick on 6/3/10

Absolutely Warwick, not only was Jesus not an angel who we know angels cannot die, angels have NO BLOOD!!!

What David must be suggesting is an angel invaded Mary's womb.

We know angels also are not perfect, as we see the fall of angels, many held in chains as we are told in Jude, until the day of judgment.

Scripture clearly state Jesus is BEGOTTEN of God, meaning birthed by God. His ONLY begotten Son. THIS DAY have I begotten thee....

Again Angels were CREATED, not BEGOTTEN, and angels cannot be redeemed, nor can they redeem others or redeem themselves!
---kathr4453 on 6/4/10


David, you are not a free agent but a member of the Watchtower Society, whose leader dictates your beliefs.Those you argue with are free agents, having Scripture and the Holy Spirit as their guide. Not man!

Scripture does say God came in the flesh- Jn. 1:14, 1 Tim 3:16, in human form. In taking human flesh Jesus became for a time a little lower than the angels. Now He sits at the right hand of God. Which means He is equal with God. Visiting kings could be invited to sit at the right hand of an Israelite king showing they were equals.

Jesus has to be God to save, but man to die.

You believe Jesus was an angel. How can an angel die, and save man?

We can continue with this when I return in a week.
---Warwick on 6/3/10


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David, you are falsly speaking as always, you said I an Kathr,
"Both MarkV and kathr4453 promote the falsehood that God was 'made a little lower than angels'."
God was never made. I have never said such a lie. You are now promoting lies from the pit of hell in order to get me to continue my diologe with you, so that you can continue the lies of Satan.
Evidence for the eternity of Christ is also found in Col. 1:16-17
"For by Him were all thing created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers, all things were created by Him, and for Him: and He is before all things, and by Him all things consist"
---MarkV. on 6/3/10


David, if you look in your Stongs concordance you will see the word MADE in this verse Heb 2:7/9 is different in meaning than the other words MADE. Unfortunately the English language is limited. It doesn't mean made or created, but made to take a submissive position as was clear in Philippians 2.

Just as you could MAKE yourself (in humility) do something your not to proud to do.
It's meaning here is:
1) to make less or inferior: in dignity

2) to be made less or inferior: in dignity

3) to decrease in authority or popularity

Always look up the definition in Strongs and compare other verses with the same number to get a clear understanding.

MAKING bricks would have a different definition....
---kathr4453 on 6/3/10


Part 2 please post.

Philippians 2:5-8
5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.


What more can one say...you either BELIEVE God's Word or ya don't! I don't have to understand how nuclear power works to believe it does!
---kathr4453 on 6/3/10


Both MarkV and kathr4453 promote the falsehood that God was 'made a little lower than angels'.

Anyone with a desire to understand scripture will realise that it is impossible for God 'to be made' anything, let alone be made 'lower than angels' or to be made 'manifest in the flesh'.

God could not have been 'Christ', simply because Christ had to die completely for mans sin. To say God is Christ negates the power of the death of the Christ because God cannot die. Thus if Christ is God, Christ did not die. This is why John said it is anti-Christ to teach Jesus 'did not come in the flesh' at 1 John 4:2,3.

Kathr- John wrote 'The Word was a god', at John 1:1.
---David8318 on 6/3/10


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Psalm 8:5, Hebrews 2:7 and 9 all use the phrase 'made a little lower than the angels' to describe Jesus. ---Could this be a mis-translation or have I misunderstood something?
---mac on 7/26/06

The WORD left Glory, took on the seed of Abraham, being conceived of the Holy Spirit in Mary's womb, and became Flesh like you and me to be able to suffer death (IN OUR PLACE). Phil 2 clearly state why.

John 17 in Jesus prayer prays to be glorified with the Glory HE HAD BEFORE He came.

Yes man is lower than Angels, and God, Jesus became a man to bridge the way between God and man. Mankind lost fellowship with God through sin. Christ became sin FOR US so that we can become by HIS Righteousness( risen Life) reconciled to God.
---kathr4453 on 6/2/10


Jesus said- "God is a Spirit" at John 4:24. If Jesus was 'God', as MarkV promotes, then Jesus was referrng to himself. Trinitaians thus push anti-Christ propaganda because they teach 'Jesus is God'.David8318

HOW many times in the Gospels does it say I AM this or I AM that. The Great I AM is God who Jesus also said I AM . In the BEGINNING was the WORD and the WORD was with GOD and THE WORD WAS GOD!!!

Hebrews 11:3
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the Word of God, ...

Revelation 19:13
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
---kathr4453 on 6/2/10


David, it's not possible for me to change your heart or your believes. God changes people I do not. I am not able to get anyone out of a Cult either, only God can do that. It's impossible to discuss the Truth with someone who is working against the deity of Christ, the Son. You are not the only one out there who attempts to twist Scripture with many small questions. It is the habit of all cult members to do that. I had a sister who was a J.W. so I am very aware of what you do. All your talk and all the laughter you are seeking against Christains will not come from me. I can discuss issues with a Born again Christian, but not a cultic member.
When you finally know the real Christ, then maybe we can talk and discuss Scripture.
---MarkV. on 6/2/10


Jehovah's Witnesses teach what the Bible teaches, and that is- Jesus did come in the flesh as a man to die and pay the ransom for mankind.

What Jehovah's Witnesses do not teach is the falsehood and anti-Christ teaching promoted by MarkV in saying 'Jesus is God incarnate', and the '2nd person in the trinity'.

Jesus said- "God is a Spirit" at John 4:24. If Jesus was 'God', as MarkV promotes, then Jesus was referrng to himself. Trinitaians thus push anti-Christ propaganda because they teach 'Jesus is God'.

When you understand what 'Christ' means then you will understand the real falsehood and dangerous nature of the Hellenic trinity dogma.
---David8318 on 6/2/10


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Mac, concerning the passages. Jesus is lower then the angels in that the Angels where given supernatural powers by the Creator. They have continued access to the throne of God (Job 1:6, 2:1, Rev. 5:11) and are not subject to death. On the other hand Jesus in His incarnated human state was "lower then the angels in that He was going to suffer death, crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone"
Of course Jehovah Witnesses do not believe that the second person of the Trinity came in human form so that the death of Jesus could pay for our atonement. God the Spirit did not die for it is Spirit, but the human Jesus did and rose again, and is now seated at the right hand of the Father.
---MarkV. on 6/1/10


So we have trinitarians teaching that "God was MADE manifest in the flesh..."

Are we to believe "God is made"? Who was it who 'made God manifest'?

God is not 'MADE' anything! God IS the eternal creator and it is God who makes and creates things.

At 1 Tim.3:16 the original Greek word used is "He", and will read "He was made manifest in the flesh", referring to Jesus and not Almighty God, because God is not 'made'- God is not a created being.

Additionally, trinitarians will have you believe 'God was made lower than the angels'. Yes, trinitarians teach Almighty God was 'made a little lower' than created beings.

Now watch for the Neo-Platonic, metaphysical explanations.
---David8318 on 6/1/10


God (Theos) was manifest in the flesh.
1Tim 3:16.
It cannot be 'He', nor does it say 'Jesus'(Jesous), although we all recognize it as Jesus.
''Main Entry: incarnate
Part of Speech: adjective
Definition: in bodily form
Synonyms: embodied, exteriorized, externalized, human, in human form, in the flesh, made flesh, manifested, materialized, personified, physical, real, substantiated, tangible, typified''--thesaurus website
Perfect example of 'God incarnate'
Thank you for this reference David8318.
---micha9344 on 5/29/10


\\It is the Hellenic, Neo-Platonic school of philosophy to teach that Jesus was "100% God and 100% man".\\

It's also the Bible.

As it is written in John 1: "God was the Word [kai theos in o logos]... And the Logos was made flesh and dwelt among us..."
---Cluny on 5/29/10


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It is the Hellenic, Neo-Platonic school of philosophy to teach that Jesus was "100% God and 100% man".

It is also anti-Christ to teach that 'Jesus was God' because Jesus said 'God is a Sprit' at John 4:24. At 1 John 4:2,3, to say Jesus did not come in the flesh is anti-Christ.

Jesus- 'He was made manifest in the flesh', 1 Tim 3:16.

'The Word became flesh', John 1:14.

To say Jesus was God is to say, 'Jesus is a Spirit', which is false and anti-Christ.

Bruce5656- 'God became man'. Jehovah at Hosea 11:9- 'For I am God and not man'. Who will you believe- Bruce Almighty or God Almighty?
---David8318 on 5/29/10


Because Jesus decided to take on the nature of man while at the same time be fully God. Man has been made lower than the angels for a while. We were also given Dominion over God's creation.
---catherine on 5/28/10


If you study hebrew you will see its not lower than angels but GOD. Even as humans we are not lower than angels....think about it he came so that we could be saved, he didnt do that for the angels that fell and followed satan. If angels were higher than us he would have saved them not banished them from ever entering heaven again. So many people try to dig so deep into the word and they usually pull out something GOD never put in it. GOD is not the author of confusion so he wouldn't make the bible to where only a small percentage of people could understand it.
---Travis on 5/27/10


Cynthia, Amen!

This is no mis-translation.

Companion verses to Heb 2:7
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Does anyone need a further explanation?

---trey on 10/15/07


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Man is made a little lower than the angels, and in carnation Jesus Christ took for a little time this lower place that He might lift the believer into His own sphere above angels(Heb. 2:9-10). The angels are to accompany christ in His second comming(Matthew 25:31). I believe that when Christ emptied Himself this is defined as being made a little lower than the angels. If all of us could be as humble as Christ was than I believe that some of our Churches would not be so worldly today. God Bless!
---Cynthia on 10/13/07


Dennis....My friend...Angels are created...Christ is GOD.
---JIM on 10/8/07


Angels are immortal, can not die. Jesus had to be identical in every way to us to "qualify" to die for us. Jesus had to have faith that he is the true Son of God. Jesus had to have faith that God could & would raise him from the dead. Jesus had to have faith that it was not just a dream or his desire to be the Son of God.
---Dennis_McCullough on 10/8/07


It is a metaphorical expression referring to God making Yashua fully human but still fully divine. Only while being fully human could be the perfect blood sacrifice to atone for all the present, prior and future sins of mankind. He was the final blood sacrifice ending ending the sacrificial system and Old Testament law for ever forming a final new covenant relationship with Yahweh.
---notlaw99 on 3/29/07


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The word angel literally means "elohim" which means God. Jesus became a little lower than God, not angels.
---Rickey on 7/31/06


Bruce: Thank you.

There is an expression "communicatio idomata"--communication of idioms--used in discussions of this mystery.

What it says, in short, is that what Jesus does as God He also does in His human nature, and what He does as man He also does in His divine nature.
---Jack on 7/26/06


I was going to point out the same thing that Jack did about the permenant nature of Christ's humanity (co-existant with his divinity) but Jack already did a great job.
---Bruce5656 on 7/26/06


#2:

Neither nature is more "real" than the other. And He remains perpetually in His Human nature as much as in His divine nature.In His human nature He rose from the tomb and ascended into heaven, as well as in His divine nature.
---Jack on 7/26/06


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**I would take as a reference to Jesus time on the earth, not to his real nature as the Son of God - Jesus refers to Himself regularly as Son of Man, and perhaps it is from His taking the nature of man that (temporarily) put Him 'a little lower than angels' - not His full nature **

peter, your Christology is very defective.

Ever since His incarnation in the womb of the Virgin, Jesus has TWO complete natures: Divine and Human.
---Jack on 7/26/06


"Little lower than the angels" refers to mankind in general and Jesus in His Human nature--which is just as real as His divine nature, peter5448--in particular.
---Jack on 7/26/06


Hebrews 2:7 and Psalm 8 refer to man in general (understandable to say 'lower than angels'). The last one (Heb 2:9), which deals directly with Jesus, I would take as a reference to Jesus time on the earth, not to his real nature as the Son of God - Jesus refers to Himself regularly as Son of Man, and perhaps it is from His taking the nature of man that (temporarily) put Him 'a little lower than angels' - not His full nature
---peter5448 on 7/26/06


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