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Not Sure That I Want Heaven

I'm not sure I want a Heaven where there is no night or no babies. Although I can't change it, I wonder - Am I the only one who feels this way?

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 ---Crystal on 7/26/06
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I understand where you are coming from. the things of the bible are difficult to comprehend but find a way to trust GODS WORD and the things of this world will grow strangely dim, in he light of his wonderful Word.
---Carla5754 on 6/24/07


Crystal. God bless you honey for your sweet innocence.Your question is a valid one but please don't try to play God. Whatever God says please accept it and believe it. Heaven is a place everyone should desire.As opposed to Hell. Nobody in their right mind would want to go to Hell. The torment and pain is not something you would want to experience. Please believe God and not your own understanding of this evil world.
---Robyn on 6/24/07


More: Crystal. Please read your bible and ask the Holy Spirit to help you read with understanding and wisdom. Heaven is more desirable than anything you will ever encounter in this old evil world. If God says there will be no night..I want that! I never heard there will be no babies. Where did that come from? Please remember: we will not be in fleshly bodies when we enter heaven. This is why we must die to receive our reward. Those that are saved have a glorious homecoming waiting for us. I can't wait!
---Robyn on 6/24/07


I hope that you are the only one. HELL, Is your other choice. Noone knows what heaven will be like, for sure. But HELL is a place you don't want to be. Jesus will be in heaven, and if you have ever tasted Jesus, It is only a nibble compare to Him and all the Saints in Heaven.Satan in Hell you will face. Face to face.
---catherine on 6/24/07


#1 melissa-You have a bible that interprets for you? I would be careful of mans interpretation of scripture. I depend only on the author of the word to interpret the word for me, The Holy Spirit. Through reading, meditating, prayer, fellowship and maturity the Holy Spirit reveals truth. We may not always like what is shown to us but that is usually just the reaction of our flesh.
---Ryan on 6/24/07




You have two choice HEAVEN THat will be peace and joy for every more are HELL Burning
BURNING BURNING BURNING For ever more Yo will never have peace.
---Betty on 9/10/06


yes ,you do want to enter heaven even if you have limited knowledge of it for if i had the space and time what i would describe is a wonderful place of beautiful glory you would see with your spiritual eyes.if you think that children who enter death without making their spiritual decision is required a restart until they have made such decision ,i agree,dont you?
---earl on 8/20/06


actually heaven is full of children.how you feel now won,t be how you feel IF you get there, but how you feel ,or should I say live now will.you need to stop living by how you feel and believe God.No more tears,or unhappiness,perfect paradise with God.thats heaven, you won,t miss a thing.
---tom2 on 8/17/06


My dear brother, Ryan,

Like you, this will be my last post to you on the subject as well. There are no scales on my eyes. I see clearly what the Word of God says. The story of the Jews was a preface for the story of Christ. In all ways, they are intentionally paralleled. I cannot & will not believe that a God who spared the young (w/no knowledge of good or evil) would today cast them into Hell because Jesus died. If anything, GRACE DOTH EVEN MORE GREATLY ABOUND as a result. The End!
---Crystal on 8/5/06


And Deut 1:39 Says "...your children..." it is written to Israel and Israels children not the children of gentiles. It has to do with the generation that inherited the land of milk and honey. I pray the scales be lifted from your eyes my sister in the Lord.
---Ryan on 8/4/06




Crystal-This will be my last post on this subject:
Eph 3:6 {to be specific,} that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,
Gentiles were not partakers of the promise until Christ came this includes gentile children.
---Ryan on 8/4/06


After the children of Israel rebelled, God sentenced them to die in the wilderness after 40 years of wandering. But that's not all. He specifically exempted young children & infants from this sentence, and even explained why He did so. The key issue here is that God specifically exempted from judgment the very young, having no knowledge of good and evil. He did not judge them on the basis of their fathers' sins.
---Crystal on 8/3/06


Ryan,

You asked:

1)When God brought destruction upon Soddom & Gammorah did the children in the womb, infants, and young children gain access to heaven?
2) Before Christ came did gentile children who were young, infants and those in the womb have a free pass to heaven?

My Answers:

1) Yes
2) Yes
---Crystal on 8/3/06


The fact remains none of you wish to engage into an honest discussion about scripture. This is evident by the fact that you ask me questions I answer yet none of you will answer my questions. I knock the dust off my sandals as I pass over the threshold of the doorway and I leave this discussion.
---Ryan on 8/3/06


Ryan,

Just as the Jewsish slaves were set free from the bondage of Eygpt by God, sinners are set free from the bondage of sin by Jesus. Just as they looked forward to the Promised Land, the "saved" look forward to Heaven. It was a prototype or foreshadowing of things to come. And, if nothing else, this verse proves beyond a doubt that there is a time when children are innocent.
---Crystal on 8/3/06


The thought that the Lord in his wisdom forecreated the vast majority of man, and babies knowing they would all be sent to hell renders such a 'God' unworshipfull. The singing of the saints in heaven would not be enough to drownout the screams of millions of burning babes. There is a moral sickness in the theology of Ryan.
---MikeM on 8/3/06


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Same verse (NIV):

"And the little ones that you said would be taken captive - your children who do not yet know good from bad - they will enter the land. I will give it to them and they will take possession of it."

Thank you, Jesus!!!! This verse proves that God is just and that children are preserved and protected before they have the knowledge of good/evil.
---Crystal on 8/3/06


mary, I've already addressed Deut 1:39. But if I must do it again I will. He is speaking of the generation that will inherit the land of milk & honey. When you take scriptures out of context you vcan make them mean whatever you want; as you have attempted to do with deut1:39.
---Ryan on 8/3/06


Ryan what about Deu 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, WHICH IN THAT DAY HAD NO KNOWLEDGE BETWEEN GOOD AND EVIL, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.
---mary on 8/3/06


Ryan writes: "...the children are unclean... This is saying in plain black and white inspired by the Holy Spirit that there are children that are unclean. You said it yourself nothing unclean may enter the kingdom."

"Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned." Luke 6:37.

No exceptions, Ryan.

Just because something unclean can't enter heaven doesn't mean God can't clean it up first.
---augusta on 8/3/06


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Interesting discussion of an old chestnut. Some will say I'm lame for saying this but I'm not sure that Jesus would have wanted us to worry excessively about such mysteries. In the end, who amongst us does not believe in the goodness and the sovereignty of our Lord? So while we may not be able to unlock and agree on the answers to these very difficult questions we certainly can trust the Lord to do the right thing.
---Benny on 8/3/06


Ryan ... your god is a mad physopath
---alan8869_of_UK on 8/3/06


MikeM, on this occasion, I agree with you absolutely.
---f.f. on 8/3/06


augusta- Appearantly I cannot read. Like I said before: Somewhere out there a village is missing their idiot (Me)
The definition says "some" not "sum"
The word used (pas) has two meanings (According to the lexicon as you stated) individualy and collectively. In this instance the scripture is saying all mankind. Not just one type of people it is inclusive of all humanity. Show me one person other than Jesus that has been born free of the judgement of Adam & Eve.
---Ryan on 8/3/06


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MikeM, one more thought on your story. YOu say the murderer/rapist says the right "words". Salvation is not dependant on words it is dependent on a spriritual transformation. One can say they believe all they want but words are useless without the transformation.
---Ryan on 8/2/06


Is this not the lesson of the parable of the workers? Some began at the begining of the day some in the middle and some in the end yet they were all paid the same.
Your story is cute and used to evoke fleshly emotions, it has no scriptural or spiritual teaching though and is worthless.
---Ryan on 8/2/06


MikeM, your story has two interesting points I would like to clear up.
1)If the baby had a believing parent than that child would be holy (I Corinthians 7:14) and would go to heaven.
2) If a man has lived in sin all his life as a murdere or rapist or thief and he comes to the Lord before he dies other Christians that have served the lord here on earth longer are not to believe it is unfair he received the same wages (Salvation)
---Ryan on 8/2/06


You are attempting to apply limited human fleshly emotions on a Spiritual God of infinite capacity. Do not ever forget we are just the pots and He will do with the pots as He pleases.
Not to mention not a one of you wants to stick to the I Corinthians 7:14 scripture or deal with the fact that it says there are unclean (Akathartos)children. And nothing unclean may enter the kingdom of heaven.
---Ryan on 8/2/06


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And furthermore not one of you will address what happend to the souls of Gentiles before the coming of Christ. Before Christ gentiles were born with no hope of salvation. They were born destined to die and go to hell. I think you all focus on God's infinite love and mercy and forget the true meaning of His justice, wrath, jealousy and hate.
---Ryan on 8/2/06


Not one of you even attempted to answer these two questions:
1)When God brought destruction upon Soddom & Gammorah did the children in the womb, infants, and young children gain access to heaven?
2) Before Christ came did gentile children who were young, infants and those in the womb have a free pass to heaven?
---Ryan on 8/2/06


You all desire to attack what I have presented but you do it without scriptural evidence you would rather call it names like "Gutter Theology"
If you believe what God teaches to be "Gutter Theology" that is between you and Him.
Everyone wants to attack the truth and ignore the scriptures. This is evidence of flesh.
---Ryan on 8/2/06


You all desire to attack what I have presented but you do it without scriptural evidence you would rather call it names like "Gutter Theology"
If you believe what God teaches to be "Gutter Theology" that is between you and Him.
Everyone wants to attack the truth and ignore the scriptures. This is evidence of flesh.
---Ryan on 8/2/06


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MikeM-Your Lord is the same Lord that ordered the nation of Israel to go into the land of Canaan and slay every man, woman and child is He not? Did the children that were slain have a free pass to heaven?
No one, except augusta, has even addressed Romans 3:23 (By the way augusta did a horrible job trying to twist that scripture because we all know what "All" means)
---Ryan on 8/2/06


YOu all wish to attack what God has established in I Corinthians 7:14. And you refuse to answer my questions such as.
)When God brought destruction upon Soddom & Gammorah did the children in the womb, infants, and young children gain access to heaven?
2) Before Christ came did gentile children who were young, infants and those in the womb have a free pass to heaven?
What of the souls of the gentiles before Christ weren't they all destined to hell because they were not of the nation of Israel?
---Ryan on 8/2/06


Consider this, a bad man rapes and murders a baby. The bad man goes to prison, before he is executed he says the right words, gets saved, goes to heaven, meanwhile, that murdered baby is burning forever in hell, courtesy of the murderer, and Ryan's God._Its not gutter theology, its filth theology. my Lord is bigger than that.
---MikeM on 8/2/06


the very best argument against fundamentalism is the theology of ryan. Look at the faulty results of such theology. millions, maybe billions of babies burning screaming in hell renders God more vile than a million Hitlers. Then to say this God who preconsigns these babes to fire is 'good' shows cognitive dissonance. Literalism is a trap, leading to divorcement from reality, (psalms 104:5-earth does not move) burning witch's, and burning babies, indeed, gutter theology.
---MikeM on 8/2/06


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augusta-you do not see hummanity as a collective or the sum of all type (The type being hummanity)? If I said all ants am I not in essence saying, "The sum of all ants"? I have identified the type, ants, and I am looking at the sum of all of them.
Or if i say, "all deer" am I not looking at the deer as a collective?
You have a very weak argument I suggest you quit now.
---Ryan on 8/2/06


...the children are unclean... This is saying in plain black and white inspired by the Holy Spirit that there are children that are unclean. You said it yourself nothing unclean may enter the kingdom.
---Ryan on 8/2/06


Crystal-I urge you to get your human fleshly emotions out of the way and understand God's spirit and His infinite just and righteous nature. ...otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy. This is the part of the scripture you must deal with.
---Ryan on 8/2/06


Just because one does not understand their sinful state does not excuse them from the judgement of God. Ignorance is not an excuse. As a parent of two small children the scripture in I Corinthians 7:14 brings me great comfort. This same scripture should also bring great discomfort to non-believers.
---Ryan on 8/2/06


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Crystal-Imagine if this truth was taught to non-believers that they are not only jeopardizing their souls but the souls of their children as well. I repeat myself but I believe it is important to understand that sin entered man when Adam & Eve fell; it became their master. NO ONE IS BORN INNOCENT OF SIN. We have all been deemed sinners; this is God's just and righteous judgement and it has not been set aside hence the need for the Messiah.
---Ryan on 8/2/06


Crystal-Sin is not an action it is a state of being. Just as Holiness is not an action it is a state of being. We are instructed to BE Salt & Light not DO salt & light. It is our being that dictates our actions. We are born in the flesh and of the flesh we must be reborn in the Spirit to inherit the kingdom. Infants may not understand sin or salvation but they are still in the flesh and of sin. That is why I Corinthians 7:14 was written to give a provision to infants and young children of believers.
---Ryan on 8/2/06


Crystal-You believe that babies are innocent yet I have provided scripture that proves otherwise Romans 3:23. I have also proposed to you that no one except for Christ has been nor will be born innocent.
Isn't it part of God's just nature that all have been found guilty of sin? Was this not the justice administerd by God for the transgression of Adam & Eve? How do children escape this judgement? Where is your scripture to prove that?
---Ryan on 8/2/06


- The unpardonable sin is the rejection of Christ. Babies, young children not able to understand, mentally ill: they have not chosen to reject Jesus.- Sanctified: set apart? - Babies are born with the sin NATURE; TU Adam/Eve; as they grow up, they will choose to sin. It is sin that separates us from God, even as Christians; we all have sinned and fallen.... Be as the Bereans. GBU
---Annie on 8/2/06


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Part 2

When this event occurred, it is an indication that a demarcation is apparent in his life - of "not knowing" and then "knowing" the Lord. Further, this makes to the case that he made a personal decision. Yes, he had been dedicated by his believing mother and had been "ministering to the Lord" for years already. Does that mean he had a "free ride" to Heaven before he made his own decision. NO! Like all of us, he had to decide for himself.
---Crystal on 8/2/06


Consider this:

PART 1

In I Samuel, Hannah was barren. She made a vow to the Lord that if He would give her a son, she would dedicate him to the Lord for life. God graciously answered her prayer, & Samuel was born. Samuel was a very young boy when he was dedicated to the service of the temple where, "The boy ministered to the Lord before Eli the priest." One passage says, "Now Samuel did not yet know the Lord, nor had the word of the Lord yet been revealed to him."
---Crystal on 8/2/06


Nothing unclean enters Heaven. That goes without saying. However, it is my position that very young children and the mentally handicapped are not capable of understanding their sinful state or their need for a Savior. God is loving, holy, merciful, just and gracious. He will NOT send the innocent to Hell simply because they lack the age or mental capacity to be saved. Otherwise, He is NOT just.
---Crystal on 8/2/06


"Are you an attorney or going to law school?
Or maybe you worked on the Clinton administration?"

You don't have to be either one to know how to read. LOL
---augusta on 8/2/06


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Ryan writes: "So what are you trying to say? All doesn't mean all? Yet in your definition it says ALL."


? *scratching head*

I showed you the alterate definitions as in "collective" and "some of all types", which makes more sense considering babies are incapable of actual sin being they don't know right from wrong.

All doesn't mean EACH & EVERY in EVERY case.
---augusta on 8/2/06


#2 Crystal-We are to come to Christ like children eager to learn His ways and completely dependent on Him. This passage has nothing to with the salvation of children or lack thereof unlike the scripture in I Corinthians 7:14 that deals specificaly with this issue. Now that I have answered your questions please answer mine.
---Ryan on 8/2/06


#1 Crystal-I am sorry I answered this question in another blog. I will answer it here also.
We find this account repeated in three gospels:Mat 18:2-6, Mar 9:36,37, Luk 9:47,48
The theme is constant in all of these passages. We are to humble ourselves for entrance into the kingdom.
---Ryan on 8/2/06


Ryan,

Jesus said "Choose this day whom you will follow..." An infant is incapable of making a choice. A 6-month-old baby is NOT unclean or capable of sinning. They are innocent, and that's all there is to it. God will NOT cast the innocent into Hell. Also, I will be happy to answer your questions when you answer several of us who have shown you that Jesus said, "Suffer the little children not to come unto Me for such is the Kingdom of God." Apparently, Heaven is like them.
---Crystal on 8/2/06


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augusta- Since all does not always mean each and every I guess when the bible says, "Jesus died for all sins" He really wasn't the sacrafice for each and every sin?
Are you an attorney or going to law school? Or maybe you worked on the Clinton administration?
---Ryan on 8/2/06


augusta-You say:
The word "all" doesn't always mean "each and every."
Yet in your definition the two words used are:
each, every
So what are you trying to say? All doesn't mean all? Yet in your definition it says ALL.
I think you are being intellectualy dishonest.
---Ryan on 8/2/06


Ryan wrote: "Rom 3:23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
This scripture does not exclude children, notice the word, ALL."


The word "all" doesn't always mean "each and every." Check it out in your lexicon.

Definition:

individually
each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
collectively
some of all types

"the whole world has gone after him" Did all the world go after Christ?
---augusta on 8/2/06


Crystal-Your example of David is the most common scripture used to attempt to disprove I Corinthians 7:14. I am well equipped to refute this weak argument.
1) David was a great man of faith so it would be understood that his child would be sanctified (He is the believing parent)
Now that we have addressed that scripture, please answer my questions
---Ryan on 8/2/06


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Crystal-The word "Unclean, Akathartos" is the exact same word used in Ephesians 5:5. Answer me this:
Can anything unclean enter the kingdom of heaven?
---Ryan on 8/1/06


Ryan ... they will be judged according to what they did know.
---alan8869_of_UK on 8/1/06


In II Samuel 12, David said of his infant son who had died "I shall go to him, but he will not return to me." Some say he was speaking of the grave. This is a weak argument because David said in Psalm 23 "Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever." So for David there was a place for the dead, including his child - the house (or dwelling place) of the Lord.
---Crystal on 8/1/06


I have two more questions for all of you that say babies do not go to hell.
1)When God brought destruction upon Soddom & Gammorah did the children in the womb, infants, and young children gain access to heaven?
2) Before Christ came did gentile children who were young, infants and those in the womb have a free pass to heaven?
---Ryan on 8/1/06


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Crystal,
Show me the scripture that says, "All children that die go to heaven." Show me this & I will believe what you say is true.
---Ryan on 8/1/06


Crystal-I will be unable to contiue this conversation with you until there is a mutual understanding that no one is born innocent except for the Lord Jesus. To suggest that anyone other than He is born innoecent is to deny the uniqueness & divinity of the Lord Jesus. I also believe we need to come to a mutual understanding of the meaning of Romans 3:23 before we procede.
---Ryan on 8/1/06


Ryan,

Your theology is (at very best) faulty. At worst, heretical. You are the very first Christian I have met in my whole life who believes an innocent child will go to Hell BEFORE they can even have knowledge of Christ. That is just sickening.
---Crystal on 8/1/06


#3 Rebecca_D-If you truly want to discuss this topic stay with the subject scripture.
---Ryan on 7/31/06


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#2 Rebecca_D-What you are attempting to do is use other scriptures to prove one scripture wrong. This is a horrible approach to prove your point it does two things. 1)By trying to prove the scripture wrong that I have presented you are conceding what I have said is true, 2) By trying to disprove one scripture with other scriptures you are by effect saying there are inconsistencies in the word of God therefore making God contradict Himself, which is impossible.
---Ryan on 7/31/06


#1 Rebecca_D-I believe you need read Romans 9:10 before you attempt to use 9:11 as an example to defend your false theology. Deut 1:39 is concerning the generation that will enter the land of Milk & Honey. Psalms 27:10 Is speaking of parents that practice iniqity and asking the Lord that as His child we will not follow their lead. I've already commented on Mark 9.
---Ryan on 7/31/06


Ryan; Deu 1:39 says that children have no knowledge of good and evil. Now if a child is going to hell after they die, then why does Jesus tell us to be like a small child? Ps 27:10, Mk 9:36-37 if a child isn't innocent, then why does Jesus say this to them? Ro 9:11,
---Rebecca_D on 7/31/06


alan8869_of_UK- I would also add to your statement that no one can comprehend of the infinite nature of God comprehending all His love, kindness, mercy, wrath, hate, jealousy and justice. We only receive a glimpse of these things in the scriptures.
---Ryan on 7/31/06


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Furthermore, a 6-month-old baby has NOT sinned! They are not "guilty" of anything. I do not serve a God who would cast an innocent into Hell. I refuse to worship a God who would. "Suffer not the little children to come unto Me. Do not forbid them for such is the Kingdom of God." What does this verse mean except that Heaevn is full of people with child-like innocence?
---Crystal on 7/31/06


I am not twisting scripture, Ryan. I am trying to understand your very faulty theology. "Come, let us reason together..." Just like a godly wife can set an example for an unbelieving husband, which leads to his eventual salvation, a godly parent can set a similar example for his/her children leading them into a relationship with Christ. Bottom line - everyone makes a personal decision. A baby is innocent and NOT in danger of hell fire. Ridiculous!
---Crystal on 7/31/06


Ryan, I cannot conceive that a child will be excluded from eternal life with god, if he/she dies before understanding about salvation. Babies are naughty, and apparently already sinful. But if they are before the age of understanding words, how can they be "saved" as you would require?
My God does not love like that.
---alan8869_of_UK on 7/31/06


Rebecca_D- I will present scrripture to you that denies your statement that children are innocent.
Rom 3:23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
This scripture does not exclude children, notice the word, ALL.
As for the scriptures you quoted they have nothing to do with the salvation of infants and young children.
---Ryan on 7/31/06


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Crystal-You are twisting the scripture. The marriage is sanactified by the believing spouse not the non-believer. It is saying you do not defile marriage by having married a non-believer. Than there is a semicolon saying "...otherwise the children are unclean , but now they are holy." If your marriage was not sanctified you would have unclean children. Nothing unclean may enter the kingdom.
---Ryan on 7/31/06


1 Cor 7:14: "For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife..." If we are to believe your line of reasoning, Ryan, then you expect us to believe that a husband is saved because his wife is saved? That is NOT what this verse implies. We ALL know that everyone is responsible to make their own decision for Christ. An infant is incapable of doing so, and to make a statement that an infant might die before being able to do so and burn in Hell as a result is positively ludicrous!
---Crystal on 7/31/06


Ryan; a young child, doesn't know the sin that is in this world, they are innocent. Children are a gift from God, and they are a heritage from the Lord, the children aren't punished because of the parents, Jer 31;29-30. Mk 10:13-16, Mt 18:10, Mt 18:2-6, Lk 9:46-47. that scripture you gave doesn't say a child goes to hell if have unbelieving parents. Because the heart of a child is pure, and we should be like them.
---Rebecca_D on 7/31/06


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