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What Happens At Mass

For Roman Catholics only PLEASE Would you please tell me exactly what takes place in a Roman Catholic Mass service and the significance of it? In my ignorance I always thought it was just the R.C.C. version of Holy Communion. From posts here, referring to Mass, I'm guessing I was wrong.

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The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is the sacrifice of Calvary. Since God is outside of time Christ"s Sacrifice has happened, is happening, and will continue to happen throughout time. Thru the power of the Holy Spirit the bread and wine become the actual Body and Blood of Christ (John6) not a symbol but the true flesh of Christ for us to consume and become ever more closely united to Him in the Body of Christ. Read What Happens At Mass by Jeremy Driscoll
---Beth on 10/14/07


**Correction**. "What evidence do you have that He could not?" Should be:

"What *scriptural* evidence do you have to support your claim that He *does* not?"
---Tina5349 on 8/28/06


Bruce #2 Peter states clearly that through Baptism the gift of the Spirit is given (Acts 2:33). He desires to create faith in all and can come even to a child in the womb (Jer. 1:5; Lk. 1:15). He also comes in Baptism's water to bestow faith. Baptism brings the Holy Spirit, who connects the baptized to the new life (Jn. 3:5; Titus 3:5-7) which resides in Jesus Christ (Acts 2:38; 22:16).
---Tina5349 on 8/28/06


Bruce, #1 This is an artificial distinction. Christian baptism *is* baptism in the Spirit. The Spirit comes to us in the water of baptism. (Jn. 3:5; Titus 3:5). What evidence do you have that He could not? What God has joined together (water and Word) we are not to put asunder.
---Tina5349 on 8/28/06


Tina,
Because, the Holy Spirit is not physicaly present to put anyone under water in water baptism. If it is the Holy Spirit doing the baptism, it must by necessity be a spiritual baptism not a physical one.
---Bruce5656 on 8/28/06




Tina5349 - What questions did I "refuse" to answer? I do not refuse to answer any questions. However, I have had a hard time trying to understand exactly what you are saying.
---Helen_5378 on 8/28/06


Tina5349, what are you referring to when you asked me what am I talking about? --Mrs. Morgan
---Mrs._Morgan on 8/28/06


Stop the Merry-Go-Round! I want to get off! Seriously Helen, I have given you scriptures for the Sacraments. Because you don't find the word "Sacraments" in the Bible does doesn't mean they're not there. I've asked you to find the word "Trinity" in the Bible. You won't. But you believe in the Trinity, yes? I've also asked you several questions which you refuse to answer. I've confessed what I believe regarding Who and how God saves us. We are at an impasse Helen. Go in peace.
---Tina5349 on 8/28/06


(4) to help the believer through his journey. We are not complete until the day of resurrection when God will transform our bodies. No one can save himself, it is impossible with men to work his way into heaven, and what is impossible with men, is possible only with God.
---lee_1 on 8/28/06


(3) what she fails to understand is that God saves us, and the blood spoken of is symbolic in the life of a believer. Her insistence on sin, and disobidence are conditions she has put in her plan for salvation. No one insist that Christians continue to sin, in fact, we all know that we are not slaves to sin anymore. That we are changed by the Holy Spirit and cannot continue without the help of Him in our life's. The flesh will tempt the believer and God has given the believer a helper and Advocate
---lee_1 on 8/28/06




(2) What I see her saying is, "If you think sin can enter heaven," or many other statements always lead her to what men is capable of doing, or not capable of doing as the condition for salvation. She will not get away from that point, in order to show she is sinless and does not do that. And everyone else is not going to heaven but her because she is able of herself by her great works to earn her way in. She is in for a great surprise. False teaching straight from the kingdom of the cults.
---lee_1a on 8/28/06


Tina, I agree with Bruce in the case of Baptism. He is correct that baptism never saves and that in conversion we are "all Christians" baptized by the Holy Spirit. Morgan is always adding sin to salvation, if anyone disagrees she adds the part of sin to them, by saying sins will not get you in heaven or something like that. Always speaking about men and what he can do, never giving any credit to God who really saves you.
---lee_1 on 8/28/06


Tina5349 - ("I lament that you do not have the Sacraments"). What are the sacraments that you speak of, and exactly where are they are in Scripture? Tina, what saves us?
---Helen_5378 on 8/28/06


For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Gal 3:27
---Tina5349 on 8/27/06


Bruce, so what makes you think 1 Corinthians 12:13 is not Holy Baptism? You said, "The only baptism that saves is baptism in the body by the Spirit at conversion."
Rx: Yep! I was converted at my Baptism. 1 Peter 3:21. BTW, you never answered my question from some time ago. Why is it possible, in your opinion, for the Holy Spirit to baptize the 2nd , 3rd, or 9th time, but not the first and only time with water and the Word as the scriptures say?
---Tina5349 on 8/27/06


Mrs. Morgan, what are you talking about?
---Tina5349 on 8/27/06


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Faith trusts in what God (alone) has done. It is what God (alone) has done that saves us. It is not faith that saves but Christ in which true faith trusts. He Himself must implant faith in us, for we cannot believe by ourselves.
---Tina5349 on 8/27/06


lee, (2.)....it's called repent if you fail God, if you don't , you are looking a eternal damnation, the Divine Blood Don't Cover Disobedience. We are to have Faith in God , Faith in the Power of this precious Divine Blood Atonement for us. The Completed Work of Jesus is not ticket to disobey God, and sin, then get away scott free with it. God's Faith Can Not be Separated from Holiness, from Obedience. --Mrs. Morgan
---Mrs._Morgan on 8/27/06


lee, (1.)The Finished Work of Christ does not entail someone having a license to sin. You are saying that Jesus paid for Unrepentent sin, No , He paid for Repentent Sins. God would never allow a person to use Him like that, to misuse His Grace. People that believe that they are still saved even if they have unrepented sins are deceived, you can't have Disobedience and God at the same time,
---Mrs._Morgan on 8/27/06


It's not about *you*. It's about God *for you*.
---Tina5349 on 8/27/06


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Helen, "I believe what God says in His Word" is a confession. Your believing it does not change the fact that God's word is true. God's word is objective. It is true whether or not you believe it. He forgives you, whether or not you believe it. Your believing is subjective. When you confess that you believe what God says in His Word, this is evidence that you have faith. Remember however, that even the demons believe. It is what God has done *for you* that saves.
---Tina5349 on 8/27/06


Helen, Baptism-Matt. 28:19, Mark 16:16, 1 Peter 3:21, Titus 3:5-8. Office of the Keys-John 20:22-23, Sacrament of the Altar-Matthew, Mark, Luke, and St. Paul write: "Take, eat, this is My body..." just to name a few. I lament that you do not have the Sacraments for where there is forgiveness of sins, there is also life and salvation. Where do you get the notion that we perform the sacraments?
---Tina5349 on 8/27/06


Tina:
""Jesus has died for me and I have received this by the faith that God worked in me in Holy Baptism," "
I do not agree with that statement because the bible does not support it. The only baptism that saves is baptism in the body by the Spirit at conversion (not water baptism). 1 Corinthians 12:13, "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."
---Bruce5656 on 8/27/06


Bruce, we believe in the finished work on the cross only because we are alive again and can see the finished work on the cross. Before been regenerated we could not see or feel anything for God. Tina has given a good example. When a person is alive and can see God he does believe because of the faith given to him by Grace that saved him. The argument put before then would mean everyone believes before they are saved. Which is not true at all.
---lee_1 on 8/27/06


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Tina5349 - Your sacraments are works that is correct. I say your sacraments because they are not Biblical, therefore they are yours, but not mine. Faith is whatever you believe, so it is not a work. Works are something that you perform. Faith is what your heart believes. Are you trying to say that for example you say "I believe what God says in His Word" that that is a work?
---Helen_5378 on 8/27/06


Bruce...if by your statement, "We are saved because we believe in the finished work of Jesus on the cross" you intend to say, "Jesus has died for me and I have received this by the faith that God worked in me in Holy Baptism," then I could agree with you 100%. But for some reason, I highly doubt that this is your intent. If I am wrong about your intention, please let me know.
---Tina5349 on 8/27/06


Tina,
I was responding to your: "we are not saved because we believe in Jesus. We believe in Jesus because we are saved. "

What you have quoted now is very correct. "but faith justifies only on account of its object and content: Christ or God's sin-forgiving grace in Christ "

This belief must precede salvation. We are saved because we believe in the finished work of Jesus on the cross. Believe in Jesus does not follow salvation. It brings us into salvation.
---Bruce5656 on 8/26/06


Lord, I believe; help Thou mine unbelief!
---Tina5349 on 8/26/06


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Bruce, "Every time mercy [grace of God] is mentioned, we must bear in mind that faith is also required, for it receives the promised mercy. Conversely, every time we speak about faith, we want the object [of faith] to be understood as well, namely, the promised mercy. For faith does not justify or save because it is a worthy work in and of itself, but only because it receives the promised mercy.(AC IV:55).
---Tina5349 on 8/25/06


Bruce..."Faith does not justify man before God because of its subjective character, but faith justifies only on account of its object and content: Christ or God's sin-forgiving grace in Christ . . . The content of this promise made to Abraham was Christ. Through the one Seed, Christ, Abraham should obtain that countless posterity from all people; through the one Seed, Christ, the blessing should come to all people." Stoeckhardt
---Tina5349 on 8/25/06


Helen: How can something that you believe be a work? Something you do is a work.
Rx: Right! But that is not what you said. You said, "You can only "receive" Jesus Christ one way and that is **by believing**." When you speak this way *you* are calling faith a work that *you* do and attributing salvation to that work. To believe is a verb. The faith you are now talking about is belief, a noun.
---Tina5349 on 8/25/06


Helen...I could ask the same of you. Stop saying Baptism, Absolution, and the Eucharist are *our* works. Indeed, the Sacraments and faith, *are* works. The work of the Holy Spirit.
---Tina5349 on 8/25/06


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Augusta - Jesus is actually seated at the right hand of the Father in Heaven having finished His work on the Cross. His work is finished and He is seated, waiting till His enemies be made His footstool (Matthew 22:44).
---Helen_5378 on 8/25/06


(2.)Linda, Some People don't want ALL of God's Truth, they just want the parts that SUIT THEM FINE, while they dismiss the part of the Word that Doesn't Suit them. God can tell the DIFFERENCE. --Mrs. Morgan.
---Mrs._Morgan on 8/25/06


Linda , Not EVERYONE Obeys God. --Mrs. Morgan
---Mrs._Morgan on 8/25/06


Tina 5349 - All those things that you say that Jesus is "at the right hand busy proclaiming ....(etc., etc.)". Number one the preaching of the gospel is up to born-again Christians to do. Secondly, just what did Jesus mean when He cried from the Cross "It is finished"? It is finished is the exact reason that Jesus is seated at the right Hand of the Father -- It is a finished work.
---Helen_5378 on 8/25/06


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Tina 5349 - Anything that is not in God's Word and is proclaimed as if it were in God's Word "vexes" me. "Do not add to His words lest He rebuke you and you be found a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).
---Helen_5378 on 8/25/06


Tina 5349 - Would you please stop saying that faith is a work. It is not a work. How can something that you believe be a work? Something you do is a work.
---Helen_5378 on 8/25/06


Augusta - Doesn't it? It sure does mean that Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father --- Take a look in the Book of Acts where Jesus stood up to welcome the martyr Stephen home to heaven. It is the only time that Jesus is depicted as standing.
---Helen_5378 on 8/25/06


Lee 1 - I think maybe a good way to word it is that God gives the faith to a person as they are being born-again.
---Helen_5378 on 8/25/06


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Tina, you have a good point. A person lost does not have faith. It is not until God regenerates the person, and brings him to life that God bestows faith in him. If he had faith before he was reborn, it would mean that all people lost have faith in Christ before been born again. We believe because we are save. The lost have enmity against God. It is also true, if you have that faith that God gives you by grace you are saved.
---lee_1 on 8/25/06


Mrs. Morgan. Why do you assume that those who belong to the lord don't have a conscience, don't love the Lord?, aren't obedient?
You offend so many who do love the Lord.
You've become a judge, and think you are God. God is the only judge and justifier of sinners. Not you.
You talk about being saved, yet you don't believe in being saved. You believe in works. Obedience is the very nature of those who are Born Again.
---Linda on 8/25/06


Helen: "Emcee - Jesus is in Heaven seated at the right hand of the Father. And guess what --- He cannot be moved."

Helen, when Scripture speaks of Jesus "being seated at the right hand of the Father" it doesn't mean He is literally sitting in Heaven. It means He has been exalted above every other name and is equal to the Father. If you'd check your lexicon you'll see that "right hand" is a metaphor, and it means a "place of honour or authority."
---augusta on 8/24/06


Helen, then how can He live in your heart? How do you interpret God's "right hand"? Do you imagine the Father on a golden throne, Christ sitting beside Him in a golden crown? If you did not have such childish ideas of the right hand of God, you would not allow the idea of Christ's bodily presence in the Supper to vex you so. The right hand of the Father is where He is busy proclaiming the Gospel, Baptizing, forgiving sins, and administering His Body an Blood for us to eat and to drink.
---Tina5349 on 8/24/06


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Morgan, I find it useless to repeat the same truths to you over and over. Go ahead and try to earn your way to heaven, and see where that leads you. Its your life and your soul. Earn your salvation if you can. Have at it. No one is going to stop you. Believe in yourself or believe in the Lord. It is your choice
---Lupe2618 on 8/24/06


Emcee - God hates religion. I do not and will not ever believe that Jesus is in a wafer because it is a lie from the pits of hell.
---Helen_5378 on 8/24/06


PART ONE:
Tina,
I never said anything about justifying myself.
Romans 4:2-5, "For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."
---Bruce5656 on 8/24/06


PART TWO:
Tina said "Helen, we are not saved because we believe in Jesus. We believe in Jesus because we are saved."
Acts 16:30-32,
Question: "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Answer: Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved..."
---Bruce5656 on 8/24/06


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Tina 5349 - Faith is not a work. Faith means believe, trust. It is absolutely impossible to put faith as works. Think on it ok, and ask the Lord to reveal it to you.
---Helen_5378 on 8/24/06


Mrs Morgan - Praise God for that. Without meaning to sound mean or anything, I honestly could not understand what you were trying to say anyway because it was not making any Biblical sense. However, you did say an awful lot about what you do, and nothing much if anything about what Christ has already done. Bless you.
---Helen_5378 on 8/24/06


Emcee - Jesus is in Heaven seated at the right hand of the Father. And guess what --- He cannot be moved.
---Helen_5378 on 8/24/06


Helen_5378 , I don't see how repeating the Truth over and over again to a person that refuses to listen is fruitful. So I won't. --Mrs. Morgan
---Mrs._Morgan on 8/24/06


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Bruce, it is what God has done that saves us. Faith trusts (that's what it does) in what God has done and the promised mercy. Faith clings, faith produces good works. It is not faith (our believing) that saves but Christ in Whom true faith trusts. Christ Jesus is the cause of our faith and the source of our salvation.
---Tina5349 on 8/24/06


Bruce, Acts 16:31 does not mean that we justify ourselves by believing, but we are justified by Whom we trust. We are justified by God's grace and receive this grace through faith. Faith, is produced by God's grace, as is every good work. I believe because God has made me a believer.
---Tina5349 on 8/24/06


Helen: "How hard it is for man to live by faith alone. Somehow, man just does not feel right if he is not doing something, and that includes his religion. In fact religion is works, and true Christianity is faith."

Rx: Helen, faith is something you do. It is the first and noblest good work. Faith is never alone.
---Tina5349 on 8/24/06


Helen in one of your blogs you say" How hard it is for man to live by FAITH alone.& religion is works."Why do you find it so hard to BELIEVE that Jesus is wholly present in the Blessed Eucharist?Do you Lack THAT faith?in spite of JESUS's words Another "In fact religion is works"Wrong Religion is belief in God's LOVE& Word.
---Emcee on 8/24/06


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John & Helen::You speak about Faith in Grace .Yet fail to display.Jesus said "This is my B&B Do it in memory of me"He left this Authority to His Apostles & successors;who at the mass,by the mere uttering of His (Jesus's)word cause the transformation.Catholics believe this; christians,are called to do the same IF you belong to one Flock. You are not the only ones who disbelieve & cannot comprehend.JN6 ;27,29,39,51,60&65.But with Faith YOU MUST.
---Emcee on 8/24/06


Mrs Morgan - Yes faith without works is dead. That is not my point. You see works of any description will never ever get anybody to heaven. Works will follow if the faith is real, and the works will be real too. But it is faith alone in Jesus' finished work on the Cross that gives anybody eternal life. A faith that looks at Christ and says 'yes' Jesus did it all on the Cross is faith that God accepts because it is totally in His Son Jesus, not at all in what we can or cannot do.
---Helen_5378 on 8/24/06


Bruce5656 , Tina probably meant that we can't just believe alone, and leave it with that.Anybody can just believe, the devil knows who Jesus is. Jesus said those who love Him will Follow His Commandments,that's TRUE LOVE, faith without works is dead faith, useless faith, that isn't from God. We just can't tell God we believe and that's it, without first having the Blood of Jesus in our lives,Serving Him in Sprirt and in Truth:Obeying Him, Abiding in His Word, Yielding to Him daily. --Mrs. Morgan.
---Mrs._Morgan on 8/24/06


Emcee. Thanks for your reply but it still remains that Jesus didn't say that an officiant would be turning the B and W into his B and B. Jesus says "this is my B and B"
If you say the CC takes the Scripture literally then I reamin puzzled as to why they have changed it.
---john on 8/24/06


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Emcee - I would like to ask you a question. Is the priest who changes the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Jesus a magician? What I mean is, how does he do it?
---Helen_5378 on 8/24/06


Tina 5349 - Anybody who is saved is saved because God gave them the faith to be saved. It starts with believing that Jesus died for your sins and rose from the dead, and it ends with still believing that. "It is by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8). The whole of salvation is of Christ, or it is nothing.
---Helen_5378 on 8/24/06


"The majority of Lutherans in Europe clearly are not Lutherans in your eyes."
It's not my eyes that matter. It is that they no longer subscribe to the Lutheran Confessions, which makes them no longer Lutheran.
---Tina5349 on 8/23/06


Oh! And one more thing Alan. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to clear up *some* misconceptions about Lutheran doctrine.
---Tina5349 on 8/23/06


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Tina, says "we are not saved because we believe in Jesus.
The bible says: Acts 16:31, "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved..."
---Bruce5656 on 8/23/06


Alan, I understand. And I truly mean no personal offense to you or your friend. I have some "Lutheran" (in name only) friends too. It's frustrating to me, but I still enjoy their company and can still call them my friends. Peace
---Tina5349 on 8/23/06


Tina5349, you hit it right on the bull's eye when you said UNREPENTANT sin is DANGEROUS. That's God truth! Why can't some of these people get it. I love to hear it when people are CLEAR on this.God help those resisting Your Truth. Tina, I don't know if you are Catholic or Christian, it don't matter, because you got it! --Mrs. Morgan
---Mrs._Morgan on 8/23/06


Helen, we are not saved because we believe in Jesus. We believe in Jesus because we are saved. Repentance and faith, like any good work, is a gracious gift of God, but not one that merits grace. We love our neighbor because we are saved. We give to the poor because we are saved. We believe in Jesus, because we are saved. None of these good works is the reason God saves us.
---Tina5349 on 8/23/06


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Helen: "God provides the faith for the person to say "yes" to Jesus Christ and is thereby (by the free gift of faith given by God) born-again (saved)."

Rx: Helen, what you describe here is called synergism, an interaction or cooperation of two or more agents to produce a combined effect greater than the sum of their separate effects. So are you saying that God does *not* provide everything necessary for our salvation?
---Tina5349 on 8/23/06


(5.) It bothers me that some Christians are forever criticizing Catholics, and they are not even straight about the Basic's, the Basic's of the Gospel of Christ, they are like what Jesus said how can you tell your brother that he has a speck in his eye, when you have a log in yours? First remove the log, then you can tell your brother about his speck.--Mrs.Morgan
---Mrs._Morgan on 8/23/06


(4.)I would rather be around a honest hearted Catholic that is forever going to confession than someone who feels that they don't need to confess their sins before God because they are hanging on some false doctrine, remaining in the dark, and calling themselves a sinner and a saint at the same time. --Mrs. Morgan
---Mrs._Morgan on 8/23/06


(3.)....but some Christians don't believe they need to repent, because they are ALL COVERED, past , present and future, no matter how they live, they are alright, because they are OSAS and they have faith, what kind of faith is that, certainly not God's! Yikes! What Deceit! What about being loyal to God and to His Word?
---Mrs._Morgan on 8/23/06


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(2.) Helen_5378,.....I believe OSAS is a Outright Rebellion against the Basic Essentials of the Gospel of Christ, I know this blog is about Mass, but I was reading your posts here and I just had to ask. I know that many Catholic's are forever repenting going to confession, and if they are honest God will forgive them,
---Mrs._Morgan on 8/23/06


Helen_5378, Do you believe in the once saved always saved doctrine, that once your saved your ALWAYS saved even if you sin, disregarding the Bible fact of Backslidding? I'm just curious, because I have noticed that your pattern of thought is consistent with OSAS doctrine. --Mrs. Morgan
---Mrs._Morgan on 8/23/06


Tina ... what you say appears to be true. But I am not Lutheran, so I have no axe to grind. I have just been reporting the situation as it stands. The majority of Lutherans in Europe clearly are not Lutherans in your eyes.
---alan8869_of_UK on 8/23/06


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