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Was Jesus In Original Sin

How well do you KNOW what you KNOW? Was Jesus born in the condition we call "original sin?"

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 ---Pharisee on 8/28/06
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What you're saying here is not Christian doctrine, Pharisee, but so much of what is said here isn't anyway.
---Jack on 8/6/08


Pharisee You are not alone. See Mima's last post, and mine. If you read the implication of them, they both affirm Jesus a son of human and as Son of God
---alan_of_UK on 8/19/07


Billy
There are three schools of thought.
One exalts Mary to explain this issue, one that says Jesus was not born as the "seed of the woman" but the seed of the Father only, and one that keeps it real saying he was born of a natural Mother in a natural body with a supernatural Spirit.
Only one needs no lengthy theological explaination, and only one seemes to have lost favor.
I believed the third, but never hear it. I posted this because I need peace with this issue.
---Pharisee on 8/19/07


Mima ... Thank you for saying what I wanted you to say. It is rather obvious isn't it?
---alan8869_of_UK on 10/18/06


alan, the answer to your question is the man side of Jesus was the side that was tempted. The spirit side of Jesus was God therefore could not be tempted.
---mima on 10/18/06




Emcee What are you trying to say? You appear to agree that Jesus was tempted. Why therefore do you make your comment as a challenge to me?
---alan8869_of_UK on 10/18/06


Jesus was born spotless(the PERFECT sacrifice for man's sins),without blemish. No, Jesus was not born into sin. He came wrapped in flesh like us(Heb.4:15),He became our SECOND ADAM, but He also came as very God, coming down to dwell among men. It's incorrect to say that Jesus was born in sin, He had divine Blood, making Him very man yet very God.The devil loves to try to take the "divinity out of Jesus", many have a false form of Jesus, they can't get into Heaven with that.
---Mrs._Morgan on 10/18/06


Okebaram - I totally disagree with you. When a small child says "no, I didn't take it, Johnny has it in his pocket", that child knows why he is lying and that is to protect himself. Little children do sin and they do know it is wrong. They know how to lie automatically, you do not have to teach them that. That is because they are born with the sin nature.
---Helen_5378 on 10/18/06


O Kathr, you did justice with those scriptures. They clarify everything. Thank you.
---Okebaram on 10/17/06


Helen, you talk of demoting Jesus to a mere human by what we say, but that's exactly what Jesus became: He demoted Himself to a mere human. Look at the scriptures Kathr gave. They show without any reason for further argument that Jesus went through the same temptations to sin just like us. But in sacrificial obedience and humility, Jesus did not sin, not that He didn't have the susceptibilities to temptation that we have: that notion discredits his accomplishment to have been without sin.
---Okebaram on 10/17/06




By the way, I just need to clraify one more thing. Than you Pharisee for your inputs. Sin is judged on the basis of what you know. An infant does not know good and evil and therefore nothing he/she does is sin. In that regard an infant cannot be condemned by judgement. The blood of Christ was shed to save the guilty not the innocent. Infants are yet innocent. Sin enters in later childhood. Grace is for the guilty, infants are not in that class.
---Okebaram on 10/17/06


By the way, I just need to clraify one more thing. Than you Pharisee for your inputs. Sin is judged on the basis of what you know. An infant does not know good and evil and therefore nothing he/she does is sin. In that regard an infant cannot be condemned by judgement. The blood of Christ was shed to save the guilty not the innocent. Infants are yet innocent. Sin enters in later childhood. Grace is for the guilty, infants are not in that class.
---Okebaram on 10/17/06


Hebrews 2:17-18
17Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

18For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

EVERYTHING Jesus went through was for us!
---kathr4453 on 10/17/06


#2 Re: Prior post:
succour
to run to the rescue, bring aid,
1 : RELIEF; also : AID, HELP
2 : something that furnishes relief
to go to the aid of : RELIEVE

AND:
Hebrews 4:15
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
---kathr4453 on 10/17/06


Alan of UK:: Permit me to answer .Let us reflect, how & why Jesus as God took the form of man.As He said "Follow me I am the WAY the TRUTH & the LIFE".Therefore He was showing us that as a human in all respects by following Him even temptation can be overcome by denial.He did not need to vindicate His actions to prove anything HE WAS GOD.Show me the way oh lord that I maybe saved."Be perfect as your heavenly father is PERFECT"
---Emcee on 10/17/06


Helen ... I don't know whether or not Jesus could have sinned ... the Bible does not tell us.
But if He could not sin, how come He was tempted?
---alan8869_of_UK on 10/17/06


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I agree with Linda. Jesus was not born with the sin nature. Had He been, then He would have for a certainty sinned as a very small child. All children lie for example. But, no, Jesus was the spotless sinless Lamb of God. To say that Jesus could have sinned demotes Him to a mere human being just like the rest of us.
---Helen_5378 on 10/17/06


Yes He was born in the condition we call "original sin". We discredit His righteousness by claiming that He, unlike us, didn't have the tendency to sin. But sin is learnt not inborn. Jesus' comparism to Adam is that he cancelled Adam's contract of death that came through sin, not that He didn't know good and evil! Jesus was born UNDER the law of sin and death and was justified by His sinlessness not grace because He was under that law that condemns us for our sins. He died to give us grace.
---Okebaram on 10/16/06


(Some people seem to have misunderstood the question as asking if Jesus had any sin)

More on the topic: the law of sin and death condemns the sinner to death on the basis of the things he/she did. There is no such thing as being condemned just by birth or "original sin". If you never sin in your life and aren't a Christian you still will not be condemned. We inherited the law of sin & death from Adam, not a causeless curse. If there is such a thing as original sin it should be this law.
---Okebaram on 10/16/06


No, He wasn't. If He had been, He could not have been the spotless Lamb of God and would have had to die for Himself.
---Linda6563 on 9/14/06


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I wan't to say God bless to Lee, Ryan Pharisee, Alan, and all that strive to know Gods truths. We might not see eye to eye on everything, and yes Pharisee, there will be a day that we will know, even as we are known. I will be more than happy to stand side by side with all of you, in His kingdom.
God bless...
---Billy on 9/7/06


3. As Author Pink wrote once, "Let man strive with his Maker as he will, the fact remains that he is nothing more than clay in the Heavenly Potter's hands, and while we know that God will deal justly with His creatures, that the Judge of all the earth will do right, nevertheless, He shapes His vessels for His own purpose and according to His own pleasure. In the final analizes, God claims the indisputable right to do as He wills with His own.
---lee_1 on 9/6/06


2. is our pride. We readily acknowledge that it is very humbling to the proud heart of the creature to behold all mankind in the hand of God as the clay is in the potters hand, yet this is precisely how the Scriptures of Truth represent the case. In this day of human boasting, intellectual pride, and deification of man, it needs to be insisted upon that the potter forms his vessels for himself.
---lee_1 on 9/6/06


2. those passages is evidence that there is "no difference," in themselves, between the elect and the non-elect: they are clay of "the same lump." which agrees with Eph. 2:3, where we are told, that all are by nature "children of wrath." It teaches us that, the ultimate destiny of every individual is decided by the will of God, and blessed it is that such be the case; if it were left to our wills, the ultimate destination of us all would be the Lake of Fire.
---lee_1 on 9/6/06


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Yes Billy, I read that part. I don't see how others can not see what curse was given to Adam and the severity of the penalty. It was very bad. We need to be reconcile to God. This is accomplished by God in the believing sinner himself. As a result he becomes changed in his rebellion toward God and appropriates the reconciliation provided by Christ on the Cross (Romans 5:11). The passages you gave about the Potter and the clay,
---lee_1 on 9/6/06


(4). There is a price to pay .... Christs death, burial, resurrection, and the sufferings of Christ must be lived in us, for us to reign with him.
---Billy on 9/6/06


(3). Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; IF SO be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Gal 2:20] I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
---Billy on 9/6/06


(2). Pharisee, What Christ did on the cross, paved the way for US TO DO THE SAME. Did Christs death for sins mean that we dont have to die, or because he was a sacrifice for sin, doesnt mean you or I wont have to present our bodies a living sacrifice for sin. If the debt is paid, and we owe nothing, then explain these scriptures to me.
Col 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
---Billy on 9/6/06


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Lee! wonderful answer! I'll comment only on one other thing, Pharisee said "READ THIS c-a-r-e-f-u-l-l-y if Adam's sin was forgiven (which is entirely his to account for in the first place) then the penalty for the original sin is placed on Jesus and (get ready) NOT US".
---Billy on 9/6/06


<3> Eternal life is as eternal as Christ Himself and is imparted to the believer at the new birth (John 3:3-17).
---lisa on 9/6/06


<2> Eternal life "in Christ" abrogates this threefold death. Spiritual death gives way to spiritual life as a present possession (Romans 6:23; 1 John 3:14). Physical death is conquered in the resurrection and glorification of the body (1 Cor. 15:50-54) or in the translation of the living at the Lord's coming (1 Thess. 4:13-18). Eternal death is cancelled by eternal life. No one possessing eternal life will ever be cast into eternal hell (Gehenna).
---lisa on 9/6/06


When Adam sinned, the human race incurred threefold "Death-Spiritual, physical, and eternal (Gen. 2:17). In Adam "all die" (1 Corinthians 15:22) in this threefold sense. Unregenerate man is dead spiritually (Eph. 2:1) without contact or fellowship with God. He must also die physically and be eternally separated from God (Rev. 20:11-15)
---lisa on 9/6/06


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6. because their ancestors opposed the Israelites when they came out of Egypt. And the list goes on. The study of Scripture of the fall and its extent is humiliatong work. It proves to man that all his claims of goodness are unfounded, and it show him that his only hope is in the Sovereign grace of Almighty God. From these depths the Christian is led to despair of himself, to throw himself uncondtionally into the arms of God, and to lay hold on unmerited grace, which alone can save him.
---lee_1 on 9/6/06


5. The curse pronounce on Canaan fell on their posterity. Women and Children were all killed. The small children were no more responsible but yet they too died. God declared Himself to Moses as one who visits the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children unto the third and to the fourth generation. Ex. 34:6,7. The case of the children of Moab and Ammon were excluded from the congregation of the Lord forever,
---lee_1 on 9/6/06


5. Many, as I do believe the children at age of accountability are responsible and fall in the same catigory as all adults. If you go through the history of the Bible you will read stories after stories about how God dealt with people. Just take the case of Dathan and Abiram, as in that of Achan, "their wives, and thier sons, and their little children' perished for the sins of their parents. The imputation of Adam's sin to his posterity is not an isolated fact.
---lee_1 on 9/6/06


4. While we know that many don't agree with this comments, only because it includes children, but God knows they were born with a sin nature, and are suffering from the penalty of death, they of themselves have not yet sin and will be judged by their actions. That is why many Christians believe the children go to heaven. Christ mentions the children belong to Him. There is many passages that God includes Children in His words.
---lee_1 on 9/6/06


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3. Suffering and death are declared to be the consequence of sin; and the reason that all die is that "all sinned." Now we know that many suffer and die in infancy, before they have committed any sin themselves. It follows that either God is unjust in punishing the innocent, or that those infants are in some way guilty people. And if guilty, how have they sinned? It is impossible to explain it on any other supposition than they sinned in Adam.1 Cor. 15:22; Rom. 5:12,18.
---lee_1 on 9/6/06


2. The Scriptures tell us that , "by one man's disobedience the many were made sinners," Romans 5:19. "Through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned," Romans 5:12. "Through one trespass the judgment came unto all men to condemnation" Romans 5:18. It is if God had said: If sin is to enter, let it enter by one man, so that righteousness also may enter by one man.
---lee_1 on 9/6/06


Good answers Billy, as I understand it, Adam was made not only the father but also the representive of the whole human race. Adam's sin in imputed to his descendants in the same way that Christ's righteousness is imputed to those who believe in Him. Adam,'s decendants (all of us) are, of course, no more personally guilty of his sin than Christ's redeemed are personally meritorious of His righeousness.
---lee_1 on 9/6/06


I don't care to argue with you guys or prove that I am right, but I have certain convictions about righteousness, and before I recieved a spirit that reasons things I didn't even stop to care.
Turn that on it's head and you have a man who has to get to the bottom of it and I believe I have been shown.
Either way there is a time and place coming when every question will be satisfied, and I at least KNOW this: I'll see both of you there. Billy, Ryan, may God Bless you richly.
---Pharisee on 9/5/06


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Adam sinned and with no sacrifice for his sin he had only one place to go right?
When Jesus ascended he led the captives in his train remember that?
READ THIS c-a-r-e-f-u-l-l-y if Adam's sin was forgiven (which is entirely his to account for in the first place) then the penalty for the original sin is placed on Jesus and (get ready) NOT US.
I ask you again, how can a baby repent and be saved?
---Pharisee on 9/5/06


you are saying that if an infant looses it's life, it is perfect and doesn't need the shed blood of Christ
That's not what I'm saying, I am saying an infant or anyone else already has the original sin covered through the work of the cross, but the sin nature still exists, and no one is above it's pull. John was full of the holy spirit from birth, yet he couldn't be the lamb.
If I kill and later come to faith and am forgiven; the consequense of the sin in the world still exists.
---Pharisee on 9/5/06


Gods people are being judged know. How else can they be in the first resurrected to reign with Christ 1000 years, and then the rest are judged after the second resurrection. All will stand before God and be judged, according to there works, weather Good or Bad.
---Billy on 9/5/06


Pharisee, you said, "but If Jesus paid the price for original sin and redeemed Adam (see Romans 3:25) WHERE THEN IS PUNISHMENT FOR THAT SIN"??? Punishment for that sin is the judgment of God. 1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
---Billy on 9/5/06


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(4). Theres some real Predestination Alan. Eather way, according to scripture, all is vanity, even we were made subject to vanity, not willing [Rom 8:20]
Ecc 1:14 I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and vexation of spirit.
You keep saying that you wont be punished for my sins, of course you wont, but weather a child hasnt sinned or not, all is vanity, that child needs a saviour, and unless we all repent, we shall all likewise perish [Luke 13:5].
---Billy on 9/5/06


(3). Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
---Billy on 9/5/06


(2). I wan't say a whole lot, because Ryan has done a great job already, Good Job Ryan. Your saying that this would be unfair, well thats the way it is. Your wondering why God still finds fault with innocent children that haven't sinned, but because of Adam, they will still have to account for being a sinner, and be judged. But O man, who are you that replies against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why have you made me this way?
---Billy on 9/5/06


(1). Pharisee, Yes Adams sin plunged the whole world into a cursed state and this is why we are all sinners at birth.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
But you are saying that if a infant hasn't committed a sin, and then this infant looses it's life, it is perfect and doesn't need the shed blood of Christ because it's without sin. I know of no scriptures that teach this theory.
---Billy on 9/5/06


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No, If He was, He never would have risen frim othe dead!
---kathr4453 on 9/5/06


That's fine Emcee, if that makes you cozy in bed, I stand that baptism is an outward profession of an inward change, and it is chosen through repentance; hence one must be born of water and of the spirit, water being repentance. Jesus restates in verse 6+8 "born of the spirit" that which is born of spirit is spirit; THAT Which is born of water is water, and you'll freeze when it's cold, boil when it's hot, and run when poured out.

What you described is called a dedication ceremony.
---Pharisee on 9/5/06


"In the nanosecond of conception when the soul is born within the womb that soul is unclean and is not worhty of the kingdom of heaven. You say this is unfair?"
No it's reality Brother I NEVER denied it, but what I deny is a mere man making up GOD's MIND for him on who can be forgiven and who can't and why.
"just ask Adam & Eve." C'mon, Have you?
Now because of God's infinite mercy we have a propitiation for that sin the Lord Christ.
---Pharisee on 9/5/06


Yes, but we who NEED IT can attain forgiveness for OUR SIN which is in us because as Jesus said "the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak," ( we cave in to the sin nature) and so YES in this way ALL HAVE SINNED and the verse actually means to say that collectively the human race falls short of the glory of God, but If Jesus paid the price for original sin and redeemed Adam (see Romans 3:25) WHERE THEN IS PUNISHMENT FOR THAT SIN???
---Pharisee on 9/5/06


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It falls upon the Lord Jesus Christ and NO ONE ELSE and this increases his glory!!! If then Adam is forgiven through Christ, which he is, (again Romans 3:25) no one has to repent of being born in sin to be forgiven of it because it's already forgiven. The consequense still exists, and It's the sin of comission that brings condemnation, this the product of Adam's sin a law unto itself like gravity.
---Pharisee on 9/5/06


God is not an administer of fairness, He is an administer of justice. Those on the receiving end of justice usually do not believe they are being treated fairly, just ask Adam & Eve.
---Ryan on 9/5/06


#3 Pharisee, God had to judge Adam because Adam sinned and because of Adam's sin all have been deemed sinners. Now because of God's infinite mercy we have a propitiation for that sin the Lord Christ Jesus (If your seeking fairness this is the best your gonna' get). Adams decision to disobey affected all of hummanity just as Christs decision to lay down His life also affects all of hummanity.
---Ryan on 9/5/06


#2 Pharisee, Sin entered this world. It enterd us and corrupted our flesh. Romans 3:23 "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." In the nanosecond of conception when the soul is born within the womb that soul is unclean and is not worhty of the kingdom of heaven. You say this is unfair? The only fair I know of is a bus fare & I don't see any busses going to heaven.
---Ryan on 9/5/06


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#1 Pharisee, I love you brother. You say: "How then could a righteous God punish sin that we are born in? Sin that we didn't commit And have no way to repent of?
That's unfair."
1) God must punish all sin because He is a just and righteous God.
2) Sin is not an action it is within our very being in a metaphysical existence.
---Ryan on 9/5/06


Pharase::You acknowledge that original sin is not yours & God will not punish you for someone elses sin.But you also know No sin can enter heaven.Yet the sin Remains & the only way to erase that sin is by Baptism,just as Jesus did, although He was God, Sinless But in acquiring Humanity & in obedienceto His Fathers will He was Baptised & the ensuing voice from heaven was "This is my Beloved son in whom I am well pleased" hence we baptise babies to wash the sin which is not theirs
---Emcee on 9/5/06


Well said Alan!
---Pharisee on 9/5/06


Billy am I going to be punished for your sin?
NO
How then could a righteous God punish sin that we are born in? Sin that we didn't commit And have no way to repent of?
That's unfair.
The answer is simple, the one who commited that sin pays for it, and as one sin begets another we'll have our own to account for.
All have sinned is simply saying we need a savior because the unbelief we are born in will cause us to sin.
All born in sin yes, but who's sin is it?
---Pharisee on 9/5/06


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"How can you say that the sin nature that we are born with isnt punished"
Because while it gave birth to my sin, it's NOT MY SIN, and I will answer for my sin, not Adam's.
And listen carefully, I said it is not punished when it's not acted upon and developed within us.
---Pharisee on 9/5/06


If Predestination is correct, and God selects those whom He saves, there would be no problem with Him deciding those babies He will save and those who will be destined for Hell
God decides which babies He will allow to die before He has given them the faith to enable them to be saved.
But if one does not believe in predestination, I think it would not be a God of love who would send such young and hardly yet conscious beings to Hell
---alan8869_of_UK on 9/5/06


Pharisee, you say: " think most educated Christians agree that when a baby dies it goes to Heaven..."
The only problem that flies in the face of these 'educated Christians' is I COrinthians 7:14. This verse clearly states that children are born unclean unless the Blood of the Lamb of God is on the household. And let us not forget Romans 3:23 "All have sinned..." this verse does not exclude children.
---Ryan on 9/4/06


For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet was without sin.
---Hebrews_4:15 on 9/4/06


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Pharisee, We will be judged!! But Jesus was the propitiation for our sins: AND NOT FOR OURS ONLY, but also for the sins of the whole world [1John 2:2]. This scripture doesn't mean that we wont pay for our sins. But that Jesus made the way for us that through our judgement, His blood sacrifice would be the escape goat for our sins. Believe me, I don't have it in for children, but all will be judged. And all will be saved!!
---Billy on 9/4/06


For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin--
---Romans_6:6 on 9/4/06


Billy I was talking about babies, how can they repent of sin when they can't even sin yet?
---Pharisee on 9/4/06


for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.
---Romans_5:13 on 9/4/06


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Pharisee, We will be judged!! But Jesus was the propitiation for our sins: AND NOT FOR OURS ONLY, but also for the sins of the whole world [1John 2:2]. This scripture doesn't mean that we wont pay for our sins. But that Jesus made the way for us that through our judgement, His blood sacrifice would be the escape goat for our sins.
---Billy on 9/4/06


Pharisee, How can you say that the sin nature that we are born with isnt punished, even though a child didnt choose it. None of us chose to be born this way [Rom 8:20]. All of creation was made subject to vanity, "NOT WILLING". Even tho Jesus never sinned, He suffer Gods wrath for our sin. Why did he do that? Was it for the purpose that we want have to account for our sins and suffer the same faith? Of course not!!
---Billy on 9/4/06


Pharisee,
Ecc 11:9 Rejoice, O young man, in thy youth; and let thy heart cheer thee in the days of thy youth, and walk in the ways of thine heart, and in the sight of thine eyes: but know thou, that for all these things God will bring thee into judgment.
Ecc 11:10 Therefore remove sorrow from thy heart, and put away evil from thy flesh: for childhood and youth are vanity.

Pharisee, none are born without blemish, or born perfect. There is none good, no not one!!
---Billy on 9/4/06


Pharisee, Jesus always spoke in pariables. The children that he spoke of were spiritual. He was just using the children for his pariable.
Mat 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the CHILDREN of God.

But what does the scriptures say about children according to the flesh?
---Billy on 9/4/06


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Pharisee, I don't agree with your comments. They are not according to scripture.
Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
We were sinners before we were ever born. God has concluded all in unbelief so that he might have mercy upon all. Though Jesus said to suffer the little Children to come unto him, doesn't mean that he ment that all the children of the flesh were the kingdom of heaven.
---Billy on 9/4/06


Pharisee - That is great insight. That would mean that quite young children though would go to hell. At the very first act of sin on the child's part they would then need salvation. Makes a lot of sense though.
---Helen_5378 on 9/4/06


Pharisee, Idon't agree with most educated Christians, we can't agree with the teachings of men above the teachings of God. A child has to go through the same process of salvation as all the rest. There are no acceptions to the rule. Its only grace through faith that we are saved [Eph 2:8]. What about those that have never heard the gospile, but have sinned? Is there destiny forever settled because they never heard????
---Billy on 9/4/06


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