Christians Going To The Courts
Do you think it sends a message of love and Christianity to the secular world when Christians insist on battling the secular world in the courts concerning 'Christian Symbols' being removed from public places like 10 Commandment & cross monuments?
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---Ryan on 9/2/06
Helpful Blog Vote (4)
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Quite the contrary--it's alienating and many non-Christians consider it an attack upon their civil rights.
Christians have every right to complain should such monuments be forbidden from PRIVATE property, but public property is for everyone. EQUALLY.
Christians who want Christianity and nothing else in public places give off the air of being greedy and self-centered, and that's nothing a Christian should aspire to. |
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---Nancy on 5/2/08 |
Yes it sends a message we love our Lord and will not have him kicked away and deleted when other religions are doing as they please. It is those other religions or lack thereof that demand anything pertaining to Christ or Christianity be removed. God has always been for fighting for liberty,look how he fought Egypt to free his people. |
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---Darlene_1 on 5/1/08 |
Ryan --Not off topic. I spoke of symbols, and about "remembrance"...which is what monuments are about. You say "God is a God of the living not symbols"? He IS God of the living, but isn't baptism a symbol? Jesus, during the Seder (which was "symbolic", practiced as a "reminder") gave His disciples the cup and the bread saying "this do in remembrance of me". This "human need" for remembrance, that you dismiss, is what I was talking about. |
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---Donna2277 on 9/10/06 |
MikeM, No I do not salute the flag. I do not pledge my allegiance to America, and yes I live in America. |
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---Ryan on 9/9/06 |
Ryan, assuming you are in America, Do you salute the flag? Knowing you have the courage of your convictions, you can give a straight answer. |
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---MikeM on 9/8/06 |
Donna2277, I am not quite sure what your point is in your last post. We have been discussing monuments made by human hands and now it appears you are attempting to shift the conversation into things Jesus did by deed, baptism and communion. It would be helpful for the discussion if you could stay on topic. I never said we shouldn't do things that Christ did by word or deed. Besides are communion and baptism something that the secular world can take away from the Christian? |
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---Ryan on 9/8/06 |
Ryan-->>Those in the Spirit do not have desire for 'Human needs' we only feast upon Spiritual food.<<
You're even more amazing than those who NEVER SIN!
Do you baptize in your church? If water baptism doesn't save you, why bother? And Communion. Why should a cup or a bit of bread mean anything? Jesus knew they wouldn't help us remember what He did...since we only feast on Spiritual food. And we have HIM who is a "living" monument. We won't use any of these in the New Jerusalem! |
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---Donna2277 on 9/8/06 |
#2 Donna2277, Monuments are of the flesh (Human need) and for the flesh (Human need). Did Jesus require monuments? Did Paul require monuments? If Jesus did not do it by word or deed than neither do we. Christ was/is a living monumnent to the Glory of the living God just as all the saints are. |
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---Ryan on 9/7/06 |
#1 Donna2277, my dear sister in the Lord. The response you have given shows clearly why those re-born in the Spirit do not have a need for monuments:
"People of all centuries and cultures...They represent a universal human need..."
The elect are a people of the Spirit not human cultures. Those in the Spirit do not have desire for 'Human needs' we only feast upon Spiritual food. |
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---Ryan on 9/7/06 |
Ryan, you don't get it. "Monuments" and "symbols" are not JUST Old Testament or New Testament. People of all centuries and cultures have them. They represent a universal human need, but they are NOT human. And just because they will burn someday in a "baptism of fire" is no reason to destroy them now...that is unloving. |
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---Donna2277 on 9/7/06 |
MikeM, Paul is telling us in Ephesians 4:26 that there are going to be things in this world that anger us because of our new nature in Christ Jesus, but if we have a just occasion to be angry do not let this anger be sinful and do not allow it to burn within us into wrath. The deed of the flesh in Galations 5:19 is 'outbursts of anger', not anger. Although I don't find it fruitful to get angry but we must understand our new nature. |
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---Ryan on 9/7/06 |
Then what about 'secular' Jury duty agaisnt those of your own faith? What about compulsive military duty in a 'secular' country where you must shoot those in another country who are also Christian? Pne here asks,"is anger a fruit of the Spirit?" In Ephesons it says, "Be angry but sin not."
What I am hearing is very inconsistant. |
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---MikeM on 9/6/06 |
alan8869_of_UK, If you are being sued than you should give the man your cloak. If you wronged someone go to him and make it right. If it goes to court than go. But do not bring legal action against anyone, this is not loving or forgiving. And our battle as Christians is not in secular courts. |
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---Ryan on 9/5/06 |
Donna 2277, Christians ARE symbols of Christianity. Piles of rocks may have been used in Old Testament times but we live in new testament times and we only have one rock THE LORD CHRIST JESUS. As far as your monuments transcending mortal life, please remember these will be burned in the baptism of fire and through Christ Jesus we will transcend your precious monuments. God bless you sister. |
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---Ryan on 9/5/06 |
Ryan #2-- I care little about courthouse monuments or crosses on a hill. But TRANCENDENCE of FAITH over MORTAL LIFE is the reason that stone crosses are placed upon a grave. Perhaps it because I am old, but I do have some anger that a cross could be legally removed from a grave when the family CHOSE to place it there. I've never gone to court over this, but must admit I'd be tempted to do so if asked. God forgive me if this is not "righteous" anger. |
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---Donna2277 on 9/5/06 |
Ryan--I suppose all believers SHOULD be "symbols" of Christianity. But I can think of nobody who is that to me (except, of course, Christ). Well, my pastor comes close. But symbols and monuments are meant to TRANSCEND the life of any MORTAL man. In the the OT piles of rocks were used as reminders for later times, even if the maker of them was deceased. |
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---Donna2277 on 9/5/06 |
Ryan ... You did not answer my question.
let's say now, I am sued in the courts for something I did not do, or damages I did not cause? Am I to refuse to appear, and be found against, with enhanced penalty because I did not appear? |
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---alan8869_of_UK on 9/5/06 |
"WE are the symbol of Christianity. Every Christian is a living symbol of Christianity. God is a God of the living not symbols made with human hands. Unless Christians (People not symbols) can be removed from society than Christianity will not be removed."
Amen, amen, amen. We are the evidence of the covenant the Father made with His Son, not things made with man's hands. |
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---Linda on 9/5/06 |
AlwaysOn, you say: "Ryan. You're saying why stoop to fighting in man's court, when God is the one who rules supreme anyway. What He says goes, so our focus should be on spreading Christ-like love."
AMEN BROTHER!!!!! Our testimony as Christians is a living example of God's love. We should not be offended by everything the flesh does, this includes attacking us. We should show, by example, the power Elohim has to transform us into loving Christians not offended & angry Christians. |
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---Ryan on 9/5/06 |
Donna2277, you say: "Where is the "fruit" in allowing every symbol of Christianity be removed from our culture?"
Donna WE are the symbol of Christianity. Every Christian is a living symbol of Christianity. God is a God of the living not symbols made with human hands. Unless Christians (People not symbols) can be removed from society than Christianity will not be removed.
Does it anger you to see Christian symbols removed from public display? Is anger a fruit of the Spirit? |
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---Ryan on 9/5/06 |
Eloy's statement; "to uphold this countries rights to freedom of religion, which our forefathers have "founded in the faith of Christianity" Small issue, this country was founded by freemasons and deist. You cannot accuse people of 'treason' for not wanting to be religious, its called the establishment clause, 1st amendment of the constitution. |
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---MikeM on 9/5/06 |
Ryan-->>where is the production of fruit in taking people to court. That is my evidence that Christians should not enter the courts<<
What is your BIBLICAL evidence? Where is the "fruit" in allowing every symbol of Christianity be removed from our culture?
What is inherently "unloving" about defending public records of faith? And, more seriously, should Christians allow ANY kind of behavior to flourish in society just in order to avoid the courts. |
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---Donna2277 on 9/4/06 |
We don't know if Jesus would use the court system of His day. He didn't hesitate to act AGAINST Jewish law as commonly interpreted, by healing on the Sabbath and allowing His disciples to pick grain.(Luke 6:1-10)
The apostle Paul, who spoke AGAINST Christians bringing a BROTHER to court (I Cor 1:1-2), didn't think twice about using legal authorities to DEFEND his rights as a Roman citizen. (See Acts 21-22)
What's "unloving" in trying to keep signs of Christianity in America? |
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---Donna2277 on 9/4/06 |
I see where you're coming from, Ryan. You're saying why stoop to fighting in man's court, when God is the one who rules supreme anyway. What He says goes, so our focus should be on spreading Christ-like love.
Makes sense. I've thought about it before as I get several newsletters weekly on pastors lobbying on legal issues (and asking for donations to support their efforts). Not saying I'm for or against it, but I do see your point. |
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---AlwaysOn on 9/4/06 |
karen, In other words, those who don't like Christian symbols adorning public places should go back to where they came from. It would be completely fair before granting citizenship to immigrants that they first promise to uphold this countries rights to freedom of religion, which our forefathers have founded in the faith of Christianity; and if they want to sue us for this, then this country will revoke their American citizenship for treason and deport them back to their own country...Problem solved. |
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---Eloy on 9/4/06 |
#2 AlwaysOn, Satan can use whatever means at his disposal to stop the spread of the truth but in the end every effort the devil has used is a practice of futility. Let us not, as Christians, think for one minute that there is any point in which we battle flesh and blood. Our battle is of poweres and principalities and are weapons are prayer and love not legal systems of a secular nation. |
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---Ryan on 9/4/06 |
#1 AlwaysOn, I look to the early Christians under the Roman empire. These Christians were tied to stakes and dipped in wax and used as torches to light halls and palaces. No matter what persecution Christians come under there is no force in the world that will stop God from calling out the Church. I am more interested in conveying the message of faith through prayer, love, reverence & hope than fighting battles of the flesh. |
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---Ryan on 9/4/06 |
Eloy, let us please not confuse the creations of God with representing His glory. Christians are only glorified when we fully submit to the will of God and then we only reflect His glory we do not become His glory. No creation becomes His glory it only reflects His glory and please let us not forget that everything you have stated will be burned in a baptism of fire because only God is glorious. |
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---Ryan on 9/4/06 |
alan8869_of_UK, where is the production of fruit in taking people to court. That is my evidence that Christians should not enter the courts. |
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---Ryan on 9/4/06 |
And I agree, Ryan. However, we must understand how the law works. An unrebutted affidavit stands as the truth. Yesterday it was prayer in schools, today it's the 10 Commandments in public, tomorrow it could very well be reading the bible on your lunchbreak or witnessing to someone at a bus stop. If we don't use the law to rebut the various lies and the general suppression of Christianity, what does this mean for future generations or for our ability to freely practice our faith? |
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---AlwaysOn on 9/4/06 |
More "good news" from Eloy. Thank you for your impute. You are doing great job teaching God's word. Many converts come from the "good news" you give everyone. Why not send them all to hell and throw away the key. Why even evangelize? |
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---karen on 9/4/06 |
Courts used to be Christian but now all against Christians in America Christians must stay away from courts. |
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---Kentucky_Ken on 9/4/06 |
Ryan ... You have not told me where we are instructed not to use the legal system? |
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---alan8869_of_UK on 9/4/06 |
Ryan, there are a few symbols that represent the glory of God; some are: the wind; the clouds; the living water; the fire; the caduceus; the cross; the Allium triquetrum; the Primula auricula; the Olea europaea; the Olibanum; the Commiphora guidotti; the Poliantes tuberosa; the Vitis viniferous; the unleavened bread; the eagle; the ichthys; the triangle; the dove; the shepherd; the lamb; the nativity scene; the lion; the number 888; etc. |
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---Eloy on 9/4/06 |
Oh, by the way, the Bible speaks quite SPECIFICALLY about taking a BROTHER to a secular court. But that's a different matter. (Hovever these may be the verses some had in mind)
I Cor. 1:1-2 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
The last verse is thought provoking, though. |
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---Donna2277 on 9/4/06 |
If we don't object to Christian symbols being removed from American culture, do you think the world is going to look at Christians and say, "Oh, look how loving those Christians are! They could object, but they are SO loving, they would rather see the crosses go"?
I don't think so. If we don't speak up, the world won't notice anything at all ! (But WE..not they..will miss never-to-be-replaced evidences of Christianity in our land) |
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---Donna2277 on 9/4/06 |
AlwaysOn, thank you for your reply. Your question is: "where would you suggest the line be drawn though?"
There is no line that can be drawn to draw a Spirit led Christian into the flesh. The stronger the flesh attacks Christians the more loving we should be. There is no symbol on Earth that represents the glory of God. They can not remove our faith because it (faith) is within us. |
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---Ryan on 9/3/06 |
Instead of having Christian symbols removed from Christ's creation, why not remove those whom object to Christian symbols from Christ's creation? Deport them out into outer darkness that they so long to desire. |
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---Eloy on 9/3/06 |
Lynn, you made and excellent point and I agree.
Ryan, first...I love your topics! On this question, where would you suggest the line be drawn though? Today it's Christian symbols, tomorrow it's the right to read the Bible in church or wear a Chrisitan symbol (cross, t-shirt, etc.) in public. I understand where you're coming from, but at what point shoud Christians battle the secular world in court? |
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---AlwaysOn on 9/3/06 |
If one is required to get the license from the SECULAR government before you can get a blessing from God to be married (though He established it before there was a civil authority), then it stands to reason that it's perfectly OK to go to secular courts, as by the same line of reasoning, God blesses them to judge in spiritual matters, too. |
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---Jack on 9/3/06 |
alan8869_of_UK, from your response I see you are interested in how I came to the conclusion: "not enter court battles." While the first three are easily located. "Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted; Love thy enemy; And the Christians primary tool, prayer" All of these Jesus did by word or deed. The Messiah's brief, pseudo court appearance before Pilate was Him admitting He was who He said He was being accused of by Israel. |
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---Ryan on 9/3/06 |
Wayne87, thank you for the observation. I find your observation extremly astute. |
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---Ryan on 9/3/06 |
Likewise if I became a Christian in a Muslim country that forbade converstions from Islam, I would be right to witness before the courts, but in no way try to force them to my position. I am not disagreeing with what you (Ryan) shared, just making an observation. |
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---Wayne87 on 9/3/06 |
While I believe that we should not enter into lawsuits, I believe we have the right, duty, and privilege to respond in court against those who would take away the freedom of conscience endowed by the Creator. If they want to take away the Bible from my house or force me to worship on Friday--the Muslim holy day, then I would have to disobey this law and respond in court when charged. |
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---Wayne87 on 9/3/06 |
Ryan ... there is a lot of sense in what you say.
But "Christians are instructed to #1 Mourn for their lost soul, #2 Pray for them, #3 Show them love, not enter court battles"
Presumably there is a scripture sayiing that. Can you point me to it?
Thanks |
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---alan8869_of_UK on 9/3/06 |
Alan, yes we are to obey the law of our land but only if it does not conflict with God's laws. If I can find the verse which says that I'll come back on this. |
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---Mac on 9/3/06 |
Amen Ryan, and by the way, thanks for the witness on the blog about the sabbath. You are right on this. Do we think that Jesus would have involved himself in any kind of secular court system, of course not. I think this is what he would do.
Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye RESIST NOT EVIL: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. |
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---Billy on 9/3/06 |
Amen Ryan. I would rather live out of the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus placed in my heart and written in my mind than to fight for 10 laws written on stone or against people living out of the flesh and true to their nature. |
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---Linda on 9/2/06 |
#5 alan8869_of_UK, If the secular world is unable to offend Christians than they (Secular man) will get frustrated. And we will show them our God is mightier than anything they can do to us. |
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---Ryan on 9/2/06 |
#4 alan8869_of_UK, Our battle is against powers and principalities not flesh and blood. Our directives for battling powers and principalities are prayer and love, not offense, anger, revenge and seeking justice through secular systems. True and righteous justice will be administered to those who follow the flesh during the second resurrection not when we are still on earth. |
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---Ryan on 9/2/06 |
#2 alan8869_of_UK, Fleshly man is unable to anger and offend those that walk in the Spirit. If secularists wish to remove crosses and 10 Commandment monuments than I say, 'So be it.' Christians are instructed to #1 Mourn for their lost soul, #2 Pray for them, #3 Show them love, not enter court battles. Our battle plan is given to us by the Lord Jesus and it is a Spiritual battle plan not a secular battle plan. |
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---Ryan on 9/2/06 |
alan8869_of_UK, It besmirches the Christian ministry to battle the secular world. If you are Christian opposed to homosexual marriage, than do not be a homosexual and get married. To force Christian morality upon non-Chriatians is not fruitful. This battle causes them to hate you because you are sending a 'Holier than thou' message to them. We are instructed to love, not only those within the body but, our enemies as well. Through our love we 'Heap hot coals upon their head.' |
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---Ryan on 9/2/06 |
Remember when Paul was in Rome, and was beaten and thrown in jail. Didn't he say he was a Roman Citizen, and had legal rights?
We live in a country where we too have legal rights. We have a right as citizens not to rollover and play dead either.
If our constitution is being re-written to accomodate the heathen, we should speak up.
I do believe we need to pick our arguments with discernment. |
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---kathr4453 on 9/2/06 |
I believe it is our right to go to court and fight for what is our Constitutionally. However, is that the best way to glorify God and get our needs met? I look at Christ's example, when He was accused and had the right to fight. Or Paul, when he insisted on being taken to Rome and tried as a Roman citizen.
Just because something is a right does not mean it is right to fight for it. |
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---Madison1101 on 9/2/06 |
Alan; In America there is a long tradition of civil disobedience (against the law) led by protestant, and Catholic Christians. The civil rights movement, anti-slavery, prohibition, etc. Both on the left and right. A famous American preacher once said, "immoral laws are only obeyed by immoral people." The notion of the passive protestant in society is a very recent one. |
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---MikeM on 9/2/06 |
If the general public ever realizes the truth behind this system there would be rioting in the streets tomarrow. To go before corruption and pleed a case, God must intervene. |
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---Lynn on 9/2/06 |
It is against scripture for Christians to battle in court against Christians. However this is Christians against those who would try to get rid of Christianity. There are times when we have to stand up and be counted, whether it is complaining abut something being taught to our children in schools which tries to undermine the faith of the family or something on a larger scale, involving governments. Even though we know God will win we are meant to be part of the battle. |
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---M.P. on 9/2/06 |
One of the principles of Christianity is that we obey the law of our country. So we can't do anything illegal to protest against the removal of these symbols. Court action seems the be the only action that we can take.
Ryan ... your question implies you think it is wrong ... can you suggest alternative action? |
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---alan8869_of_UK on 9/2/06 |
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