I know exactly the feeling your talking about.I was molested by my step father from the age of 4 to 10.My mom knew and did nothing about it,I think that hurts me even more than all of the awful stuff he did to me.I`m in my twenties and I still think about it everyday,no matter how hard I try and forget it,its a part of me and unfortunately always will be.The ONLY thing that got me through it was prayer.I prayed to God everyday for the strength to leave.And as soon as I turned 18, I left, moved across the country and never looked back. |
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---Jenna on 8/23/09 |
I recommend EMDR a type of therapy that helps reduce traumatic emotions associated with abuse and other types of trauma. After that the question remains what to do with the idea that God stood by while this was happening I speak from experience and wonder this question myself. I am reading shattered dreams by larry crabb, has some good stuff in it in that he admits God will stand by and seem absent in the face of terrible circumstances that he could prevent but chooses not to and one person will suffer much while another goes through life suffering little. Good luck to you on this journey |
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---Elle on 7/6/08 |
**
I was young and knew nothing.
**
Satan is the god of this world 2Corin 4:4, Satan is the prince of the power of air, the father of lies ...many are filled with hate violence preying on innocent children are literally owned by Satan and his demons
God gave the world to Lucifer his most precious being of light his favored cherubim who rebelled becoming the darkest spiritual force - Satan ...when Christ returns He will rule the earth ..until then we live in faith of these promises
Pray to God seeking forgiveness to the one who betrayed you ...then pray every day for God to keep you from evil ...always end your prayers in Jesus name
hurt and anger healed by seeking God in prayer ...my prayers for you too |
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---Rhonda on 6/27/08 |
Can you please tell me this>>> Why did GOD let this happen to me? Why is GOD letting Millions and Millions of other innocent children being molested? Then to come out and say he says that gay people are damn to hell. Why oh why? If so then why what I am I suppose to do when I was molested by a male and I am a guy. I was young and knew nothing. |
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---jsaon on 6/27/08 |
what makes you think you are the only one with this problem? ("Nobody") Just be glad you are not living in a Muslum country or back in Isral's time. David hid in a cave until he got tired of the nonsense and read what then happened. It is now time for you to also move out of the cave and get over it. Too many people have fallen in love with this so called 'worthless feeling' and say 'poor me'. So, pick up your bed and walk! |
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---james on 6/8/08 |
The church is fallen and Gone into perdition
because it will not preach the reality that is in the consequences of false doctrine. You think human compassion is Gods Love and it is nothing like God's Love, the Bible says that God will kill a young man to spare him from wrath. And will chastise you, beat you with many stripes to turn you away from hell. You want to judge me for being obedient to preach the word in the way that the Holy Spirit has led me, go right ahead, |
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---Exzucuh on 6/5/08 |
Matthew 15:25-27 Then came she and worshiped him, saying, Lord, help me. But he answered and said, It is not right to take the children's bread, and cast it to dogs. And she said, True, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
Jesus called this woman a Dog did he lack your fruit of the spirit was he weak in love. Jesus said the things that I do ye shall do also. You say I am not like Jesus maybe you do not really know him. |
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---Exzucuh on 6/5/08 |
Do not judge me according to your experience with Jesus, or the fact that you cannot live for him, while I am not perfect according to your idea of perfection, I am perfect according to God's. And I have authority and answer to God for every action and word I speak, And I take what I say serious and every thing I say accomplishes something and causes much discussion. And that is my ministry and why I say the things I do. |
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---Exzucuh on 6/5/08 |
Carla, I am completely with you. The Christian who produces good fruit is a child of God. And the evidence of someone who cares is evident when we exercise those fruits in helping others or suggesting to depend more on God and asking them to forgive. While Exz. is right that we should completely trust God, our faith varies depending on the circumstance at the time and no one reacts the same. We are all different with different circumstances. |
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---Mark_V. on 6/5/08 |
#2. Carla: By him mentioning Matthew 10"38, "And he who does not take his cross and follow Me is not worhty of Me" he suggest that he does an others don't. Jesus quoted that passage to His disciples in 16:21. He wanted total commitment from them even unto physical death, and making this call to surrender a part of the message they were to proclaim to others. This same call to life or death devotion to Christ is repeated in 16:24, Mark 8:34, Luke 9:23. |
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---Mark_V. on 6/5/08 |
#3 Carla: The question is, does Exz. take up his cross every single second of his life? Has he arrived? No one has arrived while alive. Every single person fails many times carrying his cross. No one is worthy of Christ. Nothing we ever do is diserving of Christ. He gives the evidence when he say's, "I" am in the will of God. Suggesting he has arrived. A show of pride (self-righteous) as the pharisees. He might be a preson who loves Christ but he still has not arrived. |
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---Mark_V. on 6/5/08 |
#4 Carla: We are trying our best to be in the will of God but fail many times. His insensitivity for others is still lacking sanctification if he is saved. I believe in his heart he means well, but his evidence does not show the love of Christ for others in their time of need. Maybe in other cases but not in this one. |
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---Mark_V. on 6/5/08 |
So was I! It took 57 yrs for God to reviel it to me , and after my mom had passed. God has now healed me and my innocence has been restored. Thank you Jesus for dying for me. |
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---Lynn on 6/5/08 |
Exzucuh,
You want to judge Jesus too for what his words sound like?
Exzucuh on 6/4/08
Yes except Jesus Is/Has the power to KNOW the heart of a person and able to forgive sins, unfortunately you may claim/possess certain authority but the question was not about Authority necessarily because right now the person needs milk not Red Snapper or Goat fish! |
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---Carla5754 on 6/4/08 |
My heart goes out to you but you must move on from this very hurtful and upsetting incident in your life. With God all things are possible. If you are a Christian give it all to Jesus. Believe what Jesus says about you and begin to live the life He has purposed for you. Don't dwell on the negatives. We all have something negative in our lives. Read Phillipians chap 4. Very encouraging and sobering for anyone going through trials and tribulations. God bless you. You are loved and wanted by God. |
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---Robyn on 6/4/08 |
Revelation 2:23 And I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
You want to judge Jesus too for what his words sound like? |
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---Exzucuh on 6/4/08 |
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Titus 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith,2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word, be instant in season, out of season, reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
I am in the will of God and the word in the means by which I minister and your opinion of me has no grounds or authority. |
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---Exzucuh on 6/4/08 |
Exzuch,
Never you mind, If you had a loving or sensitive testimony to give,I didn't hear it instead of being big headed and full of self, Humble yourself and maybe you won't receive harsh reply's. I expect from one whom claims to be Christlike to uphold the same kind of spirit, while I might fail continually You claim to be strong. But remember not to be so overpowering that you crush the ones that are week beneath that strength unawares. Your answers seems as if you don't care. |
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---Carla5754 on 6/3/08 |
2#
And further more My experience has taught me to not assume that My experience means others have to deal with the same situation as I do. Why because everyone is NOT THE SAME. It's impossible to judge others by those merits. Again refer the person to a counselor that is qualified to deal with Abuse of every kind, not just by baptism. Your never too old to learn.. just as I have 'N' do. |
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---Carla5754 on 6/3/08 |
---Carla5754 on 6/2/08 Have you been through something like molestation, If not what do you know. The real power of God is supposed to do something for peoples lives. If this person would find somebody who really knows Jesus they could be set free instantly, You receive power when the Holy Ghost comes on you. You do not spend the rest of life feeling sorry for yourself. You religious pretenders do not help anyone you just help them wallow in their self pity. |
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---Exzucuh on 6/2/08 |
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You think I am hard you better believe it. I do not play the game lets pretend we are religious. I believe in the power of God that
makes the captives free and shines the light of Jesus to those who sit in darkness. Jesus said if you will not take up your cross you will not have any part with him. |
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---Exzucuh on 6/2/08 |
You have to give all these things you want to hold on to to Jesus or they will kill you eventually.
the reason people will not let go is hate
they hate the thing that happened and the person who did it. And they cannot be saved
unless give it to Jesus.
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---Exzucuh on 6/2/08 |
I can't think of one person that has not been through something they would consider less than fair, traumatic or criminal.
Forgiveness is the only way you will ever be able to pull yourself away from a life associated with molestation and abuse.
I realise that some do not have the will to forgive.
They will be forever fighting against the nightmares, resentments and be perpetually angry. |
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---lisa on 6/2/08 |
New study came out today. Those who concentrate on death, think about death, entertain thoughts about their own death - it truly affects their everyday living and quality of life.
It would be the same for abuse, molestation, anything that moves someone to stay in a deep depression. It affects your entire quality to life and those around you. It's a bad thing to concentrate on bad childhoods, so depressed that you wish you could die, that's a horrible way to live out your life. |
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---lisa on 6/2/08 |
Exzuch,
In all honesty I found your reply harsh and void of any sensitivity. How ever you got over your pain is individual to you and judged on those merits. You cannot bring someone else s conclusion to an abrupt in line with your own and suggest go baptise the abuser and get ''ova it'' so to speak, hurt, abuse, emotional/physical are and can be deep rooted and you have no idea what the individual went through, refer the person to see a counselor it's obvious your not one. |
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---Carla5754 on 6/2/08 |
By humbling yourself at the foot of the cross and asking the Lord to take away your hurt, you can get past this. I did. |
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---cindy on 6/2/08 |
Paul said of those Born Again...Old things pass away ALL things become NEW. As Born Again creatures IN CHRIST we are being renewed day by day, and changed from Glory to Glory by the Spirit of the Lord each and every day. Our Minds are being renewed. So we are called to forget the things behind us...and press on to that Glorious Hope before us. YOU can't do that if you're still holding on to the past.
Forgivness of others is the first step of being conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. |
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---kathr4453 on 6/1/08 |
If you want to get over stuff like that you have to crucify it, You have to lay it at Jesus feet, Jesus was molested big time and then saved some of the people who did it. The Guy that molested me when I six, I led him to Jesus and Baptized him and I am glad he Got saved. Stop holding on to the old man and live the new life and if you can't you need to be born again.
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---exzucuh on 5/29/08 |
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my dear, this is a subject that sends shivers down my shine...receive a loving hug from me
i pray that the Lord will see you through....
trust in the Lord...Amen |
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---Patience on 5/29/08 |
Helen- I am sorry dear, but I am not sure you understand the Atonement of our Savior. I only hope that you will find a way to truly get to know Him better because it has helped me, and I know it will likewise bless your life. |
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---timmy on 5/28/08 |
It is a terrible thing when someone with greater physical strength forces their sickness on a helpless person. Please ask God for help in believing YOU were not at any fault. Please ask God for help in forgiving the person who hurt you--that will help heal YOU.
Find others who have suffered the same thing you have. It helps. It took me a long time to overcome what happened to me. I've never forgotten, but I'm whole. God loves you, and so do I. |
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---deb on 4/14/08 |
You can never get over being molested.I was molested for 5 years and think about it almost every day. You have to just be strong and go on with life ,because life will go on with or without you. |
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---Neesha on 1/2/08 |
Hey it happened to me also you should read Jeremiah 15:18-21. i would tell someone that you trust and can confide in, i did, it helps. you must remind yourself its not you fault and you are loved unconditionally by Jesus Christ he make allthings new. i am 16 and i have no idea how long these emotions will go on. evertime we feel this we must remind ourselve that God loves us somuch that he gave his son to die for us NO-MATTER what we have done or what has been done to us we were worth it to him! God Bless |
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---Brooke on 11/4/07 |
Helen is 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt wrong... i am sorry helen no hard feelings but you are... there is nothing i repeat nothing wrong with going to see a doctor, psychologist, or, social worker nothing! it makes me so mad that people would think that. i know several that are strong christians. and god himself says to hold each other accountable for what we have done and what people have done to us. and how is hellan even a part of this i'm thinking that this girls name is Melissa |
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---Brooke on 11/4/07 |
I was molested from the age of 6 to around 9. My older cousin was constantly touching me and making me touch him. I hated myself for not saying anything to anyone. He made it into the NFL and is living the good life, while I'm struggling to put myself through college. I'm afraid to come out and tell bc I don't want ppl to think I'm jealous of his success, but I want him to know how he changed me. I'm praying to get over this. It's a long journey, but I know God is on my side. |
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---Jenna on 10/17/07 |
I was also sexually molested. I've spent a lot of time in the presence of the Lord Jesus. He is the one who has to wash out that old hurt. He has healed me a lot. I spent time talking to Jesus about it. (actually there was some yelling involved!) When I didn't have anymore to say in English, I prayed in the spirit about it. I asked JEsus to go back and heal that part of me. He has. Isaiah 61 is great. Let the Holy Spirit be your counsellor |
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---Lori on 7/16/07 |
Melissa::when a child is learning to walk & falls down does it not get up & try again?If you are the victim of a robery in your home Would you run away from home?Or would you make your House more secure & take precautions so that it will not occour again.You were a victim,you are faultless-get on with your life honey.There are many who suffer in silence but they just bite the bullet & continue seeking Gods help.If the perpetrator is still around separate yourself from him, even unmask him. |
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---Emcee on 7/11/07 |
So, you are being made to feel worthless? And THEN what? You are being made to feel worthless, in order to break you down to do something > DON'T do what feeling worthless would degrade you to do.
Jesus does not treat you like that. "'Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'" (Matthew 11:29) |
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---Bill_bila5659 on 7/11/07 |
Jesus said "Forgive your enemies who have offended you FIRST.Then come to me for healing.Vengence is mine said the lord.there are many who have fallen short in this category the aggrieved must forgive first.Then only does peace of mind return & ones sanity.with real forgiveness comes forgetfulness. |
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---Emcee on 7/10/07 |
Melissa, I don't know that anyone "gets over" this. What is most important for you to know is that it was not your fault and that Jesus loves you. Therapy with a good therapist can help, talking to a rape counsellor can also provide good advice and comfort. Having the molester charged is a great way to improve the healing inside, even if not successful. Last, learn to forgive - both yourself and your molester (forgiveness does not mean condoning that behavior or allowing it to happen again). |
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---lorra8574 on 7/10/07 |
God can deliver you from anything. Trust Him and He will set you free. I was molested for 6 years when I was younger and I know that feeling, but thnaks be to God because when he saved my soul He gave me forgiveness in my heart. I was able to forgive all those bad things from my past. He freed me and he will do the same for u. I will be praying for u! |
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---Sara on 7/10/07 |
...all needs are met, and the homeless ministry is being totally supplied by the word of the Lord coming to others to give. Oh...and he doesn't have a "help himself" job. Don't want to forget to mention that. It is the one who is without strength on his own who receives the ability of God. That is what supernatural is. People in the right place at the right time moving in obedience to what the Lord speaks to them. |
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---Linda on 7/10/07 |
"......pick up your mat and walk...."
This is not self-help. This is faith in the spoken word of God. Acting on the spoken word and helping oneself are not the same thing. I wish I had the space to tell of a brother in Christ I know who simply moved on the Word of the Lord to go feed some homeless folks. He moved and God moved with him and overtook him to the place where he is out of debt completely,.... |
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---Linda on 7/10/07 |
Leland; Self help does play a big part in one's life. How can God help someone whom isn't willing to help themselves? He can but I imagine it greives his spirit. God can help anyone. But God will be more apt to help somone whom is helping themselves, more than he would someone whom is lazy and won't do for themselves. EX: If I need a job, I won't get one by sitting on my butt. If I go out and look for one and pray while doing it, God will help me find a job. |
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---Rebecca_D on 7/10/07 |
Jesus said...pick up your mat and walk...certainly self help is an ingrediant to healing. |
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---Leland on 7/10/07 |
Helen::I remember.But I want you to draw a line of comparison between the suffering vicious beatings, flayed by barbed hooks,spit, beard pulling stripped like a crimnal nailed to a roman tree all this foretold would happen,bleeding drained, all for the love HE bore for man to save them from their henious crimes his own would do this to Him.His love rejected HE was the supreme creator,who made us gave us life & liberty& then inspite of all offers us an eternal reward, He forgave imagine forgave. |
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---Emcee on 7/9/07 |
how can i view this blog? |
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---bobby on 7/9/07 |
1. This is a heart wrenching subject. Only those who have gone thorough it can truly understand what this younog lady is saying.
Some people never come to grips with being molested. If not addressed, the aftermath can plant a bitter root that when coupled with other traumatic events can have many side serious side affects.
Help can come in many forms. The first avenue is prayer. You need the strength that only God can give you to take you through the steps to healing. |
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---lynet on 4/18/07 |
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1. The important thing is that you have to be prepared to share, understand that it may be diffficult, but relief will come as the weight is lifted.
Counseling is a positive step, but only you can make that decision. No one elses experience, or views about what it is or is not is going to benefit you once you realize you are at a place where you need help to get where you need to be concerning this issue. |
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---lynet on 4/18/07 |
I pray that God will hold you in his loving, Tender arms and bless you with his grace and mercy to be able to overcome what this person did to you. It is NOT good Enough to say GET OVER IT... Well Well well, what kind of statement is that? I perfectly understand what you are going through and when you read these statements know that we all do not think this way! God will work it out for you malissa, Believe God will work it out and remove your pain. |
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---Carla5754 on 4/18/07 |
I really do not know it happened to me at a young age and I still have nightmares of what happened and how it happened and yes I am still afraid of this man, my uncle. So I am still hurting and don't know what to do. |
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---Mildred_Kellems on 4/18/07 |
I really do not know it happened to me at a young age and I still have nightmares of what happened and how it happened and yes I am still afraid of this man, my uncle. So I am still hurting and don't know what to do. |
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---Mildred_Kellems on 4/18/07 |
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'Get over being molested?' You and God have to work on 'getting passed' the hurt. Talking to a Christian counselor who will help you realize that its NOT your fault and to cast all those cares upon Jesus is a perfect combination, it worked for me. I hold no grudges nor hate, just pity for these lost, often sick individuals, and you bet I always knew where my kids were and who they were with! Praise God they were spared this kind of trauma. |
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---NVBarbara on 3/18/07 |
Mary (and others).
Reading your histories and the forgivenss you have shown is inspiring to say the least. God Bless you and I hope you find every peace and happiness in the future. |
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---Ed on 3/18/07 |
Jesus Christ died for you too. You are worthy of His love and He accepts you and doesn't reject you. Ask Jesus Christ to remove the lies that this experience has brought about in your life, in all aspects and to fill those places with the Truth of His light and to lead you in growth towards him. Contact me for further info. Junia 6337 |
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---Junia on 3/18/07 |
I was also raped in 70 when I was 6 months along with my second baby. I wanted to hate the one who hurt me when I was gowing up as well as the one who raped me..But God changed that feeling of hate, it had to have been him. I love my dad he is the best dad that anyone who have had, I forgive him as well...mary4964 |
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---mary4964 on 3/17/07 |
As for the guy who raped me, I have forgiven him as well..forgiveness is the first step of healing the pain...we need to know we are not the bad guys, we are the ones who were hurt by them....Now I help others who had gone through the sexual abuse as well as the ones who were raped.mary4964 |
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---mary4964 on 3/17/07 |
I was also molested from way back when, as so was my sisters before me, but with God's help we were able to come thorugh it. No it is there always, but you can go forth in the Lord and ask Him to give you a forgiving heart...mary4964 |
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---mary4964 on 3/17/07 |
This is a hard question just like none of us wears the same size shoes none of us heal in the same way. I went thru a sexual assault as a teen and had to heal my way. I found that a lot of healing helps by helping others we tend to "get" healed when reaching out to others, time does help also. Remind yourself that U are not worthless even when U feel it say it outloud even if you have to. You may just be the answer to someones pray that is going thru the same thing. |
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---Jeanne on 12/11/06 |
I may not agree w/Helen who agrees w/anyone all the time but she has the right to be on this blog & say what she feels is right. We all have the right to disagree but sometimes that is even healing by talking about it, talking it out. Helen Jesus does heal U are right- but we can also take actions to help this process remember that old saying God helps those who help themselves. God uses many ways to heal us & some have gotten helped thru docs, others have not needed this but it doesnt make it wrong. |
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---Jeanne on 12/11/06 |
Helen; If my child was molested I would quickly take him to a psychologist, counciler. I would strongly involve him/her in school and church activites, and do whatever supportave actions I could to help heal of this. Helen, If you as a parent do not do all you can you have no business being a parent. God heals, and does through many agents. |
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---MikeM on 12/10/06 |
I think people who have been there understand. Going to Jesus in prayer will help. But he gives us other tools to use as well. Therapists, doctors, friends.
Being molested doesn't make you worthless. You are never worthless because you have beauty and strength and compassion. Use those gifts to help others. Beauty because you are a child of God. Strength because you are a survivor and compassion because you can relate to other people's trauma. |
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---grace3869 on 12/10/06 |
Dear Hellen,
i am sorry about u getting melostied.
my name is nicki annd i am 11 years old.
how old r u? Well my aunt was melostied by her Dad.
who ever would do that to their own daughter is WRONg.
well i have a ? for u how old do u think the world is?
cause i can see u r a strong beliver and u could rkokplay help me be a stronger beliver. |
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---Nicki on 12/10/06 |
Craige - Amen and amen. If Jesus cannot heal it, then it cannot be healed. What a price Jesus paid on the Cross for our sins and our healing. Spiritual matters can only be healed by the Lord. If anybody thinks they can get inside the human mind they are grossly deceived. Nobody can do that. |
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---Helen_5378 on 12/10/06 |
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Helen::If you will listen to me would you please keep away from this subject for your own sanity till you are stronger.Yes continue to seek His Divine help.This is too close to home & it brings out the volatility in your conviction.My prayers are with you ALWAYS.God bless you & strenghten you as you mend.Dont let others get under your skin!! |
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---Emcee on 12/9/06 |
HELEN- I'm with you all the way on this one. The self help gospel Joyce Meyers preaches is not the answer. Mechanics and medical doctors are fine, but not for spiritual matters. Keep the faith, I was molested as a child. Faith in the fact that Jesus paid the price for me to be free of the memories, pain, and guilt allowed the Holy Spirit to go to work on the problem- even the unforgiveness. Anyone who thinks you need more than Calvery is decieved! |
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---craige on 12/9/06 |
1...I was molested as a child. Growing up I could not get over the smell,or touch of the person who abused me, nor the mind racing thougths that tormented me. Later, I was saved. I wrote down resentments that I had toward the person who hurt me, I prayed for him, at that moment God touched me and I forgave him, I had feelings of love for him. God showed me that he was spiritually sick and hurting, that's why he did it. |
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---chris on 12/9/06 |
2... I have never experienced any more hate for him, the smell of his breath or his touch. God took it from me completely. From the love that God gave me along with forgiveness, I was able to help a friends father who molested her. He is now saved. One more thing...God blessed me with a friend who told me it was not my fault. For years I believed it was. I knew then that it wasn't. |
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---chris on 12/9/06 |
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No problem sister Helen, I know your love for Christ. That is what really matters. Blessings to you |
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---lisa on 10/23/06 |
Lisa - Thanks. I needed that. Bless you sister. :) |
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---Helen_5378 on 10/23/06 |
In a way, I agree with Helen. I've been to therapists and all that and they've yet to help me. BUT I also agree that there ARE good therapists out there and the next time I feel I might need one this time I'll pray for God to direct me to one instead of finding one myself. |
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---sue on 10/23/06 |
My heart cries.I was sexually abused,and know the ramifications.Don't believejust forget it.It took till 50s and a Christian psychologist,who saw two strongholds over me.I had to break these strongholds.Also I had to forgive,forgive so my relationship with God could continue uninterrupted - behaviour not condoned.God knows what happened to you, he knows you are not to blame - you did nothing wrong,He wants to comfort you,and restore the joy of living to you.Blessings, Sheia9375 |
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---Sheila on 10/23/06 |
Helen, we know, at least I know we all don't agree with everything. You have great answers to many blogs and I agree with you many times. Sometimes I don't. I written a lot of things and you don't agree with some of mine either. I believe the essentials of the Christian faith is what most of us believe. Some of the none essentials we don't all agree. This answers on personal views do have a lot of problems. Heck, even the one's on the Sovereignty of God have a lot. Since I have been on line, |
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---lisa on 10/22/06 |
2. I have been called a lot of things from supposely true Christians. They have condemned me, called me unsaved. Have called what I present of God's sovereignty cultic. But I know there is many great Christians reading what is said. They are learning and listening. God has a way of bringing truth to others, so please don't be upset if I don't agree with everything you write. It is your right to disagree. I still love you no matter what. |
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---lisa on 10/22/06 |
JohnT, too many blogs are like that. Someone askses a question and halfway through the blog, everyone is arguing about something entirely irrelevant to the question because someone saw it as a chance to debate his/her wierd "revelation" and doctrines that are hardly related to the question. I wonder why some don't get tired of debating their theories in order to make their folly heard. (Helen, I'm not just talking about you here). |
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---Okebaram on 10/22/06 |
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