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Apostle Paul In Fifth Dimension

When the Apostle Paul was caught up to the third Heaven 2 Corinthians 12:2, did he enter a fifth dimension?

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 ---Lathan on 9/28/06
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No offense, but you obviously did not understand that passage. Paul was talking about someone he knew who had a powerful vision knd of like someone I read of who saw heaven in a vision.
---Okebaram on 3/16/08


1st Cliff.#3. I'm still waiting for your facts. Some writings from Constantine himself that said He made the NT (etc).You have not provided any facts to prove your point, till date.

How can he have anything to do if the Church had recognized these books as the definitive New Testament nearly 200 years before Nicea?

You have said that the Council had more Trinitarianism people than Arians. Therefore they were out voted. You have not provided any facts to prove that!.
---Ramon on 10/11/06


1st Cliff.#4. You prefer to believe fairy tales instead of knowing the truth. None of your statements have been backed up with facts, instead it is just your Assumption.

Jack and I have ask you to provide facts to back your statements, but you have not because they is none. Its just a bunch of "words" that is unsupported by history.

You listen and believe rumors, thats your problem. And thats always been your problem since I meant you.
---Ramon on 10/11/06


1st Cliff.#2. I gave tons of facts that say Constantine had nothing to do with making the NT. So based on your facts (none), its just your Asssuption.

Constantine did finance the manufacture of new copies of the Greek Bible as well as a new Latin translation, but he left the decision of what to include up to church leaders. He did not made any decisions regarding this.

Constantine didn't tell them what to include. End of story.
---Ramon on 10/11/06


1st Cliff.*I suppose that the fact that Constantine had 300 copies of bible translations burned had nothing to do with the accepted canon at that time!*

There is no evidence to suggest that Constantine gathered up and burned any Christian literature. Nor is there evidence to suggest that Constantine threw all the books on a table,the ones that fell off were excluded.

I gave you facts that say Constantine had nothing to do with making the NT. I'm still waiting for your facts.
---Ramon on 10/11/06




Ramon; I suppose that the fact that Constantine had 300 copies of bible translations burned had nothing to do with the accepted canon at that time!When you eliminate the contenders ,what do you have left? He had all of Arius' writings burned and anyone caught with some were killed. Also after the assasination of some of the voting bishops, the "trinity" passed by one vote!
---1st_cliff on 10/11/06


1st Cliff.#9Constantine did finance the manufacture of new copies of the Greek Bible as well as a new Latin translation, but he left the decision of what to include up to church leaders. He did not made any decisions regarding this.

The church had recognized these books as the definitive New Testament nearly 200 years before Nicea. Thus again we find another proof that Constantine had nothing to do with deciding on the books of the New Testament.
---Ramon on 10/8/06


1st Cliff.#10 Again let me make sure you understand something.The 20 rulings made at Nicea, none of them dealt with the contents of the New Testament: either what went in to it or what was excluded.

We know from writings within the first century that many of the books of the New Testament were already regarded as scripture by that point. So Constantine had nothing to do with deciding on the books of the New Testament. And if he did, which he didn't, he reaffirm what was alreadly affirm.
---Ramon on 10/8/06


1st Cliff.#11.There were several writings by early church leaders, who lived long before Constantine was born, that quote, paraphrase and expound upon all or virtually all of the passages found in the New Testament.

In fact, some scholars say that one could reconstruct the New Testament from these early writings by church leaders. Again Constantine did not have the final say whatsoever. No wonder you reject the NT, you know nothing about it, how it was formed, etc.
---Ramon on 10/8/06


1st Cliff.#7All of the New Testament books were written in the first century. All of the Gnostic books were written in the second and third century.Many of the New Testament books cite the Old Testament as authentic scriptural books. The Gnostic rejected the OT.

By the time of Constantine the issue of which gospels should be used was already settled. So its impossible to say Constantine decided which gospels will be included or not.
---Ramon on 10/8/06




1st Cliff.#6The fact that we have copies of the New Testament writings shows that early Christians valued them highly, or else they wouldn't have been preserved and re-copied. Moreover, early in the second century A.D., Christian writers quoted from the writings that would be included in the New Testament, much as they quoted from the Jewish Scriptures.

Both the Tatian's Diastessaron: Around 170 A.D, and The Muratorian Fragment points to Matthew, Mark, Luke , and John as THE four gospels.
---Ramon on 10/8/06


**Constantine had the final say about what was included in the NT**

Please offer proof of this.
---Jack on 10/8/06


1st Cliff.#8. Again Yes! A rumor that is unsupported by facts. You have said that they were a scam regarding Constantine! However you have not given, till date, any facts to prove that! Sound like another "1st Cliff Conspiracy", doesn't it?

The development of the canon was the work of the whole Church and not just one man.St. Iranaeus, writing around AD 180, quotes from Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John as THE four gospels. That’s 140 years before Constantine and Nicaea.
---Ramon on 10/8/06


1st Cliff.#5 Based on writings from early church leaders, including documents dated from the year 96 through the year 112, at least 24 of the 27 books that comprise the New Testament were already regarded by early Christians as being authoritative, a full 200 years before Constantine convened the Council of Nicea.

Plus!The Council of Nicea didn't canonize anything.
---Ramon on 10/7/06


1st Cliff.#4. Read 2 Peter 3:16. Peter speaks of Paul's epistles as being on the same level as the other inspired and authoritative Scriptures.

1st Cliff, Constantine did not have the final say. Besides you being brainwash in a blockbuster movie, what facts Do you have?

There is no evidence to suggest that Constantine gathered up and burned any Christian literature. Nor is there evidence to suggest that Constantine threw all the books on a table,the ones that fell off were excluded.
---Ramon on 10/7/06


1st Cliff.#3.But some of the 27 New Testament books weren't universally accepted until after Constantine's day. Constantine himself had nothing to do with these decisions.

Moreover, there's no historical evidence to support the thesis that Constantine had anything to do with the formation of the Christian canon.

Where you get your facts from? From a guy who made a movie just to make money?
---Ramon on 10/7/06


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1st Cliff. *Constantine had the final say about what was included in the NT*

Again I said provide proof!. List some sources to prove you point!. Besides the "The Da Vinci Code" movie 1st Cliff!. 1st Cliff you have not proven any proof. History disproves you wrong.

1st Cliff you have proven that you reject the NT.
---Ramon on 10/7/06


1st Cliff. #2.Constantine had nothing to do with deciding which books belonged in the New Testament. That decision was made by Church authorities long before Constantine's day in terms of knowing basically which books would belong. And then it was at a later time that Church officials decided which 27 books would finally belong in our New Testaments.

Historians say Christians reached consensus on the authority of the first century's four Gospels and letters of Paul during the second century.
---Ramon on 10/7/06


Ramon;You want some facts? Constantine had the final say about what was included in the NT,at the time he was priest of the sun god "Sol" murdered his son,drowned his wife and was outrightly anti-semetic. this is no rumor!
---1st_cliff on 10/7/06


1st Cliff. Yet again you showed that you reject the NT. *One rumor is that he threw all the books on a table,the ones that fell off were excluded! True?? who knows?*

Yes! A rumor that is unsupported by facts. You can believe a rumor if you want but none here will.

You have said that they were a scam regarding Constantine! However you have not given, till date, any facts to prove that! Sound like another "1st Cliff Conspiracy", doesn't it?
---Ramon on 10/4/06


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1st: One rumor is that he threw all the books on a table,the ones that fell off were excluded! True??
If you want to believe a RUMOR, no one can stop you. Some also believe in Santa.
However, neither square with the facts.
---JohnT on 10/3/06


Besides, how do you know that God himself, using the resources of the rich and of kings to bring the Bibles to the common folks, ordained such a task?
---Steveng on 10/3/06


Deep down inside to the bottom most part of my heart, I have relied on the KJV for over 30 years. King James wanted the Bible to be written so the common folks could read it themselves. He brought together 60 or 90 (I cant remember, alzheimer's I suppose) experts and scholars including Rabbis, Hebrew/Greek linguists, and anyone else he could find to make sure that the Bible was not of one mans interpretation unlike most Bibles today which are interpreted from the KJV.
---Steveng on 10/3/06


Jack, I accept 100% of the bible, it is God's inspired Word, Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart." It is Truth and the truth will set you free. There may of course be areas where I have not the proper understanding but I trust my Lord to lead me into all truth and correct my ways and any misconceptions/unbelief I have
---christina on 10/3/06


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Ramon; Let's get things straight;If you had any idea how and who put the canon of the bible together (NT) then you might understand there was no magic involved,Constantine "Emporer of Sol" (sun god) had the say about what was included as scripture!325AD One rumor is that he threw all the books on a table,the ones that fell off were excluded! True?? who knows?
---1st_cliff on 10/2/06


Jack.Yes it is true that alot of people dont accept the bible 100% in these blogs.1st Cliff rejects some books in the bible.He dont believe Paul,Peter Etc.
---Ramon on 10/2/06


Jack, don't you accept 100% of the bible? 1 Corinthians 13 tells us that none of us knows in full until Jesus returns, but that is different from saying that part of the bible is false or misleading. In this regard, some do accept 100% of the bible. Though, they aren't very many on these blogs.
---Okebaram on 10/2/06


**
Okebaram. Please understand something. 1st Cliff does not accept 100% the bible.**

My own observation is that if pinned down, NOBODY on these blogs accepts 100% of the Bible, though they claim they do.
---Jack on 10/2/06


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But Pauls writings is in the bible! The NT place Pauls writings in the same line with the OT with Authority and recpect.
---Ramon on 10/2/06


Okebaram.#3. If I quote Matthew gospel am I a Matthewite? 1st Cliff wont call you Matthewite but he will call you a Paulite. 1st Cliff teachings is mix with the Bible and Cults. 1st Cliff dont believe God when he said about Paul "Go! This man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before the Gentiles and their kings and before the people of Israel".

Just Pray for 1st Cliff. And I ask everyone on CN to pray for this brother.
---Ramon on 10/1/06


Okebaram; Unlike you no one is "leading" me. God gave me a mind(brain) and Jesus gave me a warning(Mat24.)"watch out that no one missleads you" but I'm afraid that that warning has fallen on deaf ears!
---1st_cliff on 10/1/06


Okebaram.#2 We all need to pray for 1st Cliff. He will call you a follower of Paul if you even dare to quote one of his writings. But then again Okebaram he will use his writings to prove you wrong. That Make sense to you??. 1st Cliff will say Christ said this and that but who wrote that "saying"?. This is where 1st Cliff get knock out. So who is the final authority? Mark, Luke John or Matthew?

He dont believe that the NT is God's word.
---Ramon on 10/1/06


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Okebaram. Please understand something. 1st Cliff does not accept 100% the bible. He is like alot of cults today (JW ETC) that only accept 20-30% of the bible. Go ahead ask 1st Cliff if he accept 100% the bible and see the answer he gives you! He wont give a soild answer but will put words together that dont make sense. He follow cults and he is Arian and thus he is not a christian. A christian dont reject the bible but 1st Cliff does. You wont get through to him. We all try. He is false teacher.
---Ramon on 10/1/06


First, don't ever try to explain spiritual things through the eyes of the world.

Second, How do we know that God used the riches of the heathen (as written in the Scripture that he would do) to put together the KJV Bible in its present form? (Note: most versions of the Bible today are the interpretations of one person and translated from the KJV)
---Steveng on 10/1/06


1st Cliff, you are extremely misled and disillusioned. That is heresy. I pray that the Lord will bring deliverance to you one day.
---Okebaram on 10/1/06


Okebaram;It's just a slight bend in the road that no one seemed to notice,but those following Christ got sidetracked and have become Paulites.Now he's the final authority in all things "Christian" It's very subtle but people don't say Paul says, but the bible says!
---1st_cliff on 10/1/06


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I really think you guys should read the passage before commenting. Paul wasn't even talking about himself at all!
And 1st Cliff, what do you mean by "divinely inspired or not"? Paul was a man of God not a false prophet and I know not just because He said so but by experience that teaches me that the bible's message is true and divine!
---Okebaram on 9/30/06


Actually, the Fifth Dimension was a singing group, led by Marilyn McCoo.
---JohnT on 9/29/06


greetings,paul was refering to himself when he said 3rd. heaven for the experience was far from normal and was unexplainable in his terms.for how did he know that heaven was"a enduring substance" and which heaven he was viewing if it were not for his indwelling spirit going there and returning to him to give him a record of such with out physical travel.his flesh cannot enter heaven so his inner man did so for him.to add,jesus' spirit was seen just after baptism"like unto a dove"
---earl on 9/29/06


Seems that Paul was subject to apparitions and visions,divinely inspired or not,who knows? The only proof is that "he said so"!
---1st_cliff on 9/29/06


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Well certainly the third heaven is not in any dimension that we understand. Was he in a fifth dimension? I can offer no objection to this answer.
---mima on 9/29/06


Paul entered what the Bible said he entered.
---Elder on 9/29/06


I think it's pointless to try to describe mystical experiences in terms of modern physics.
---Jack on 9/29/06


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