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Offended By Women Pastors

Are men offended by women pastors? Would you inwardly reject a message that a woman pastor would teach? Would you leave your church if a woman became the pastor?

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The early church leadership was mostly men, however, they had to operate within the social norms of their day. There is, however, virtually nothing in the scripture that forbids God to call a woman into the office of pastor.

If you use the traditional scripture by most the sexists of our day, then how do you get around the fact that only married men can serve as pastors, elders & deacons?

Also how do you get around the fact that even today women pray with their heads uncovered as clearly scripture tells us that they need cover their heads when they pray?

The answer is simply that God really makes no distinction as all are equal in Christ. Gal. 3:28
---Mary on 6/10/09


"Those that object"... Mary on 5/5/09: all the Apostles including Paul (Galatians 1:11-12, 16-17, 2:6-9, 11), & Peter (2Peter 3:15-16), all the first century churches including Corinth, nearly all of the commentators for 1900 years, and most of the people who have called themselves believers in Christ.
Those who don't object: Satan, Genesis 3:1-6, rebels, 1Samuel 8:7, 1Corinthians 10:9-10, the unlearned, 2Timothy 2:15, 3:6-7, 4:3, Hebrews 5:13, wolves, Matthew 7:15, Act 20:29.
p.s. 1Corinthians 11:3-10, 13, 15-16, 14:33-38, 40, and 1Timothy 2:8-15.
---Glenn on 5/5/09


There are alway those that attack the messenger instead of the message.

A woman pastor receives the same basic training as men and operates under the same position descriptions.

Indeed there have always been women holding different positions and doing so effectively.

Those that object to women in any position or calling are simply backwards in their thinking and wants to hinder the spread of the gospel.
---Mary on 5/5/09


I can't speak for all men.I would not reject the teaching of a women preacher if what she preached was according to the scriptures. Yes I would have to leave my congregation if a woman were to preach as it is forbidden for them to speak, (teach) in the church,1Cor.14:34-35, 1Tim. 2:11-15.
---Tim on 4/15/09


You violate 1Timothy 2:9, and 3:11.

---Glenn on 4/9/09

Some spirit drives these couple of these girls. It's not Holy. In that its against the witnesses appointed by Christ. They've been rebuked here for months. Lack of husbands,bad experiences, weak pastors maybe desire for authority....who can tell but, GOD. Sure makes a reinforcing of scripture amongst believers...but, to their own loss at some point. Collective prayer...for em.
---Trav on 4/13/09




Glenn, thank you for the compliment but no, I am not Shawn.
My Church Pastor and Overseer are men like Shawn and teach/preach as he does.
AND when they do, they show scripture and verse. You have your beliefs and I am fine wih that. As the Bible says, I will not offend. You choose not to listen to a woman pastor, where as I would listen. That is a choice that each of us make of our own.
---miche3754 on 4/11/09


Miche3753: Your style of writing is sure similar to Shawn_M.T.. Should we address our comments to Miche and pseudonyms.

And now it's Colossians 1:26-27. So, unsaved gentiles who don't understand the work of Christ negate the Lords prohibitions. 4/8/09: "No man is the leader"... Ephesians 1:22 is true, and so is 1Corinthians 11:3, and Ephesians 5:21-24, 6:1-9, 1Peter 2:13-18. "The scripture"... Is 1Corinthians 11:16 and 14:36-38, 40 unfair? "When my pastor... It is Christ preaching." Blasphemy.

2Timothy 2:23-26. -Glenn

You refuse to understand those verses that are prohibitive to women suborning men in 1Corinthians and 1Timothy. You violate 1Timothy 2:9, and 3:11.
---Glenn on 4/9/09


***Kathr 4453,when God speaks through people it's because they surrender to his will completely allowing the Holy Ghost to use their tongue to speak. Darlene1***


Darlene1, that is totally naive..and I'm not being sarcastic here. People can surrender to the unholy spirit. This can be seen in many ungodly charismatic churches...those who are told to surrender to the spirit and then act like animals.

To surrender to God's will completely as it says in Romans 12:1 & 2....we are told: be transformed by the renewing of our mind that we may KNOW what is the will of God.

Christians can only speak what is in the WORD...not something new and different.

Paul spoke out of personal experience!



---kathr4453 on 4/9/09


AND if I may add,

WE are not building the Kingdom for Christ in the first place. And no where does Paul teach us we are.


Jesus Christ is Building His church!!! He is calling out a People for His own. He is preparing His Bride. He is preparing His Army!
---kathr4453 on 4/9/09


***If you don't deny what is said in the Bible then you understand that every person in the Body of Christ that is working to build up Christ Kingdom, it is actually Christ working not them.Miche***


Continue please..

Miche, another catch word...working to build up Christ's Kingdom

Many have very different ideas about working to build up Christ's Kingdom.

Benny Hinn has his own Idea on that as well.

Benny Hinn is a false prophet! Christ IS NOT working through him. and those like him!!! Hinn would be considered a Gnostic...and those who follow him would be too!
---kathr4453 on 4/9/09




To those who have an ear, let them hear: The law was given within the context of a gracious covenant: God had made a covenant of grace with Abraham, a covenant which the giving of the law never nulified (Gal. 3:17). Second, God had graciously rescued Israel from Egypt and providentially sustained the people with manna and other miracles during their journey in the desert. Third, the law was given after Israel had, as a body of believers, made a commitment to serve the Lord, which we also did, (Exod. 19:8). "The law was given, not as a means of justification, but as a guideline for living after Israel's commitment to serve the Lord." The purpose of the law is to serve as a guideline for godly living.
---MarkV. on 4/9/09


Interesting concept here, but maybe a little Gnostic in nature.- kath 4/8/09

John chapter 15 says for us to remain(abide) in Christ and Christ in us.
John 14:23 says God and Christ will come and live in us if we love HIM and keep his word.

Colossians1:27 says that Christ is in us.

Romans 8:11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

1 Corinthians 2:13 says it is the Holy Spirit of Christ that speaks and teaches through us so that we can pass these things to others.
---miche3754 on 4/9/09


Miche, how can you make such a strong point about pastors ..and it all being Christ, yet you fail to apply these same principles to Christians.

Can a Pastor speak lies? Is everything that comes out of a pastors mouth TRUTH?

Many are called Miche, but FEW are chosen to be God's true mouthpiece! And God certainly does not choose anyone who ADDS to scripture what God didn't say.

That clearly disqualifies anyone, whether man or woman!


AND here are more qualifications!!!
1 Timothy 3:5-7

5(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) 6Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
---kathr4453 on 4/9/09


Kathr 4453,when God speaks through people it's because they surrender to his will completely allowing the Holy Ghost to use their tongue to speak. It is their voice but it's God given and anointed Words which are spoken. It isn't Gnostic,it is Bible,Mark 15:11 But when they shall lead you,and deliver you up,take no thought beforehand what you will speak,neither do ye premeditate:but whatsoever shall be given ye in that hour,that speak ye:for it is not ye that speak but the Holy Ghost. If God will do this for a time of danger he will even more so do this in a time of ministering the Gospel Word of Jesus to bring the Light of hope to the congregation and the world.
---Darlene_1 on 4/8/09


The problem with some of our sisters in Christ on this post is they confuse status and order.
The Lord not permitting women to have authority over a man is order not status and proof even more that no woman can be who she needs to be without the lord. The natural inclination is for the woman to want control much like we have in the U.S.
We are a matriarchal society, fatherhood is not celebrated.
On the other hand men should step up to the table and won't without God's power. They will sit back and be slugs. Both genders are totally dependent on the Lord to fulfill their roles.
---larry on 4/9/09


kath, do you deny that the Bible says that when we come to Christ, He is in US?
Do you deny that the Bible says that the flesh wars with the Spirit?
Do you deny that the Bible says that it is Christ that does the work, not us?
If you don't deny what is said in the Bible then you understand that every person in the Body of Christ that is working to build up Christ Kingdom, it is actually Christ working not them. Paul's writtings are the writtings of Christ are we agreed? yes, then you know that it was Christ in Paul that wrote, not Paul's flesh. Not gnostic, these are biblical truth. It is not you working it is Christ working. How can you say its not when you have said in other blogs that it is?
---miche3754 on 4/8/09


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***Like I said, when my pastor is preaching, it is not his word he is preaching it is not even him preaching. It is Christ preaching.***

Interesting concept here, but maybe a little Gnostic in nature.

To say one is totally spirit, and non existant is troublesome. Yes we do give God all the Glory, but do men prepare, study to show themselves approved?

If the Pastor was just a piece of flesh standing there with no accountablity, and just opens his mouth and something comes out...???

Paul worked out his own salvation on the battlefield of life, and then preached those truths to you and me.

He also commended those who were approved by God as being good stewards of the Mysteries of God.
---kathr4453 on 4/8/09


glenn, thank you for the apology. It is greatly appreciated.
As for Christ in you... That is the mystery that Paul speaks that not all understand.
That Christ is in us.
And in these positions of stewardship, the head is always Christ.
No man is the leader. It is Christ that is the leader.
The scripture you give was spoken to a specific crowd of people and was spoken to bring order to that which was out of order.
Like I said, when my pastor is preaching, it is not his word he is preaching it is not even him preaching. It is Christ preaching.
Once we all understand that, the truth comes to light.
you can deny that it is Christ, but the Bible certainly doesn't.
---miche3754 on 4/8/09


miche3754

I misprinted Ephesians 5:32, "I speak concerning Christ and the church." It doesn't say Christ in you, nor speaks to marriage.

4/6/09. "not understanding" "the Spirit of Christ." John 14:26. Yes I do, and of both 2Corinthians 3:17 and 1Timothy 3:16. "Man's law". "Are you calling Gods commandments and mandates man's laws?

You Consistently use a logical fallacy: Galatians 3:28, Colossians 3:11, Joel 2:28, Acts 2:17, a list of women, and misused scripture do not negate 1Corinthians 11, 14, and 1Timothy 2. Your favorite book is the pink book of eisegesis. There is nothing written in it, but you read into it what you want.

-Glenn


---Glenn on 4/7/09


"Christ said that in his kingdom here ill be giving in marriage."


This is actually suppose to say that there will be NO giving in marriage.

I apologize for the typo.
---miche3754 on 4/7/09


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Glenn, it's not a great mystery to me that the OT is a shadow of the NT.
What you are not undertsanding is the Spirit of Christ.
I gave you the example that all of men and women are the bride of Christ(all Christians).
Are you a woman to Christ? No.
Am I a man to Christ? No, We are NEITHER to Christ. We are his body that does the work.
Christ made ALL equal in him. When you understand that IN CHRIST there is no male or female, then you understand that a woman can be what ever God calls her to be.
Paul was comparing the structure of fleshly marriage to our marriage to Christ the Bride groom.
Man's law hindered women back then. NOW it does not.
---miche3754 on 4/6/09


actually glenn,
the great mystery, is Christ in you!
Christ said that in his kingdom here ill be giving in marriage.
WHY? because in Christ, we are not male or female. WE ARE THE BODY OF CHRIST.
The Same spirit that works in a male Christian works in a female Christian. When he or she is speaking in Christ, it is not male or female speaking, it is Christ speaking. Doesn't the Holy Spirit speak through women as well as men? yes, it does. The Church is NOT the building. Once you see that, you come into understanding.
---miche3754 on 4/5/09


Women could be Pastors if the Men forget how to come to Church
---Timothy on 4/3/09


Miche3754 3/30/09:


I did not know that giving a verse, and explaining its' meaning was to "accuse women". Perhaps your complaint might be addressed to Jesus as they're his scriptures. John 1:1-19, Revelations 19:13.

Surprise! You address 1Corinthians 11:3-10, 13, 15-16, 14:(33)34-35 (36-38), and 1Timothy 2:11-12 (8-15). Try this, everywhere it says man insert husband, or the Lord Jesus, for women, put in wife, or the Church. Is it logical?

Ephesians 5:30 is "a great mystery" to you.

"Clarifies" like mud.

When written, 2Corinthians 3:16-17 predominately referred to the O.T. You misunderstand Colossians 2:17, Hebrews 8:5, 10:1.

Revelations 14:12. -Glenn
---Glenn on 4/3/09


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Miche3754
re: your blog of 03/28/09

Numbers 12. Did you read v.6. Prophet (masculine) as compared to old men and young men in Joel 2:28-29 / Acts 2:17-18. vs.1 and 9 explains who. vs.2 and 8 explains why. Miriam was disobedient "to law" [taking on things pertaining to men > Adam: Genesis 2:15 / Eve: 3:1-6, Deuteronomy 22:5 & 1Corinthians 11:1-(16)] "or man" (Moses).

"Isaiah 3:12 (10-12) "speaks" to whom? And do the Epistles speak only to their respective cities, or the churches in Revelations 1-3. Is Timothy written only to Tim in Ephesus.

1Corinthians 12:20-22. Did 15-18 fall out of your Bible.

To God be the glory. Amen. -Glenn

(" " op. cit.)
---Glenn on 4/3/09


I tell you what,
read 1 Corinthians 15 about the resurrected bodies of man. Tell me what you think it means.
Pay close attention to verses 42 through 49.
---miche3754 on 4/3/09


Ladies I did not say Christ will glorify sinners.
I said Christ will change their "glory".
Glory in the Bible does not always meant to glorify.
It makes reference to that fact that our "glory"=form, is our human bodies.
Just as Jesus changed his "glory"=form and took on our "glory"= form or flesh
When Christ gets here our form will be changed. He will give us the same type of form he has. This means Christ will give Christians new bodies.
He will also change the forms of sinners after he judges them and He will toss that form into the lake of fire.
SO, no I did not say that Christ will glorify sinners I said he will change them.
---miche3754 on 4/3/09


Did you know that saved and sinners forms(glory)will be changed when Christ comes back? Why will sinners glory be changed too?
Because every man lives and dies unto the Lord.
******

WOW I've seen some spin on Word of God on these posts but this???

I can't even imagine WHICH verse one must butcher to come to this conclusion

which scripture were you TOLD supports this idea that Christ will glorify sinners
---Rhonda on 4/2/09


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No Kath, Please stop trying to pidgeon hole me.
like it or not ALL of us live and die unto the Lord.
When Christ comes back, Christians 'glories'- forms -will be changed to live with Christ.
Sinners glories will be changed and they will be tossed into the lake of fire.
Bible also tells what will happen to those that don't accept Christ.
Sinners will be changed too only not for the good.
Didn't Jesus change from his glory and take on ours to walk among us? Yes, he did. Christ will transform Christians giving us new glory. He will judge sinners,and transform them too, but like I said, not for the good.
And please stop telling me I am twisting scripture when it is right there in your face but you have yet to understand.
---miche3754 on 4/2/09


By the way Kath, I didn't say sinners will be glorified. I said given a new glory- this means Christ will change them too. BUT unlike us they will be changed and tossed into the lake of fire.
Christians will be changed and live with Christ forever.
---miche3754 on 4/2/09


Did you know that saved and sinners forms(glory)will be changed when Christ comes back? Why will sinners glory be changed too?
Because every man lives and dies unto the Lord.
miche3754 on 3/27/09
Miche,comments like this really concern me.

Sinners will not be Glorified when Christ returns. Only those who have Christ in them the SAVED will be Glorified. Those who suffer with Him will be Glorified together with Him( Rom 8)...that is a Promise to the SAVED ONLY. Not sinners! He is going to be Gloridfied IN US, not sinners.

AND NO ALL men do not live and die to the Lord. What a twist of scripture that is!!!

Sinners are going to be fed to the fouls of the air!!!Revelation!

Miche, you.. Mormon or Untversalist?
---kathr4453 on 4/2/09


Amen brother Shawn, TEACH TEACH AND TEACH SOME MORE!!
Some keep thinking it is them working and spreading the Gospel.
Absolutely NOT
It is Christ working.
We are just the vesels!!
He is using our mouths to speak the truth. He is using our hands to lay on the sick.
He is using our arms to hold and comfort the down trodden.
It is never the flesh that was meant to be glorified. IT IS THE SPIRIT of Christ that is Glorified and is the Head none other and certainly not a fleshly man or woman.
We are just stewards of Christ. None of us lead because we(ALL CHRISTIANS) are the "wife"(Bride) of Christ!
---miche3754 on 4/2/09


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I have a question of my own>>>WHY DOES IT BOTHER SATAN IF GOD CHOOSES WOMEN FOR SOMETHING OTHER THAN WASHING DISHES, TEACHING, or doing the laundry, mopping floors. Hanging out clothes. Cutting the grass? Why oh why! I tell you why! Because some women, God has anointed more, than some men. Ha
---catherine on 4/2/09


--MarkV:

Brother, By 'Faith' we're Saved & no longer under the curse of having to make our arms flesh(as you're continuing to do) by only looking to or trusting in MAN as a leader of the assembly of churches: For no man or woman ever was the guiding teacher to lead us into remembrance of the Truth. They were only fleshy vessels!

The instructions Paul gave were only a SchoolMaster to assigns newly found Believers of Christ to a office of serve for Christ's sake, to bring them into Faith. Once Faith came, they were no longer to abide under a SchoolMaster's guidance: but the more Perfect indwelling Guidance of the Lord's Spirit. Where they're divinely inspired, directly into their best offices of serve for Christ's sake.
---Shawn_M.T. on 4/1/09


How can anyone ignore the Bible's on words showing women did indeed labor in the gospel with the men,Philippians 4:3 And I intreat thee also,true yokefellow,help those women who labored with me in the gospel,with Clement also,and with other of my fellowlabourers,whose names are in the Book of Life. If anyone deny this by saying they only cooked or did other domestic chores or only ministered to women or children would be adding something the Bible doesn't say.
---Darlene_1 on 4/1/09


Shawn T, you say I am denying women pastors because of my conscious, but that is not true at all, I am denying women leaders of churches and teachers of man because the Word of God gives us instructions on who should lead our assemblies, or churches. It is a very simple answer. Obeying is following the guidelines. Disobeying them is to pretend God didn't tells us. They are not laws. There is a reason behind it Shawn, and God knows what that reason is.
---MarkV. on 4/1/09


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--MarkV:

Don't superimpose your thought & intents on others, MarkV. You gave the impression by stating "I will close with just saying---MarkV. on 3/25/09" BUT you didn't CLOSE with just saying, now did you, because here you are again!!!

The Spirit leads us to obediently follow the Truth but when anyone follows their conscious their not following the Spiritual Truth. I'm not implying Your listening to your conscious, You've stated as much & I'm not here to wrestle with it!!

MarkV, You're Denying Women Pastors because of your conscious. The Holy Spirit hasn't led you to disobey this Word of God's instructions which Paul stated that "after 'Faith' is come, we are no longer under a SchoolMaster."
---Shawn_M.T. on 3/30/09


If men are offended by women pastors. Then they must really be offended by the word in the book of Judges chapters 4 & 5
4And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time. Study about Deborah!

and also they must be offended by
Joel 2:28
And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
and in Acts 2:17 says the same thing
YOUR SONS And DAUGHTERS he will pour out his spirit on ALL flesh "All" means all
---Hilda on 3/30/09


If men are offended by women pastors. Then they must really be offended by the word in the book of Judges chapters 4 & 5
4And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time. Study about Deborah!

and also they must be offended by
Joel 2:28
And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
and in Acts 2:17 says the same thing
YOUR SONS And DAUGHTERS he will pour out his spirit on ALL flesh "All" means all
---Hilda on 3/30/09


Glenn,
Understand that teaching/preaching/pastoring IN the Holy Spirit of CHRIST is not doing what you ACCUSE women of.

Also Glenn,
Correct translation of that particular verse says the wife can't take authority of husband.
"wife" = Body of Christ
"husband" = Christ
So actually, ALL of us, men and women, are to submit to Christ authority over our lives.
Marriage of husband and wife is fleshly example of Spiritual marriage of Christ = husband and Body of Christ = wife.
I hope this clarifies.
Just as the OT is a fleshly shadow of the SPIRITUAL in the NT.
---miche3754 on 3/30/09


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Shawn T. by your sentence to me you imply you follow the Spirit and I don't. I thought you would leave it along but you didn't, you tell me, "Mark V, I was never in Hopes of wrestle with another man's conscious. You can listen to your conscious & rationalize Gal.3:24-25 all you want but I'm Hopeful that you'll listen to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit instead of your own conscious: For we're to do God's Will(not our own), when He tells us, the way He tells us to do it!! You see Shawn I listen to the Holy Spirit who leads me to all Truth of His Word, His instructions. If I disobey His word I would not be following the Holy Spirit and doing my own will. Are you sure the Holy Spirit told you to disobey the Word of God?
---MarkV. on 3/30/09


miche 3754

Genesis 2:18, 20 refer to a wife as helper to her husband, not all women to all men. Women are only subordinate to men in the sense that they are to be modest and to the limits described in scripture. However, 1Corinthians 11:3, 14:34-35, 1Timothy 2:11-12 say no women are to rule over men.

Galatians 3:28 and Colossians 3:11 refer to salvation, not to offices within the church.

How are new testament laws abolished in Christ? Please feel free to tear the following verses out of your bible Isaiah 42:21, Matthew 5:19, Romans 6:1-2, 7:12-25.

Adam was all men.

Scripture twisting. Does that include Moses and Paul / 2Timothy 3:16-17.


Ephesians 6:24, Glenn
---Glenn on 3/28/09


Glenn, Miriam was a Prophetess. the reason she was struck with leprosy was because of what she said about Moses wife, NOT because of disobedience to law or man.
God did this because of her prejudice. Isaiah 3:12, you have taken out of its context. Read the entire chapter. God is speaking to Judah and Jerusalem. Are you Judah or Jerusalem? NO, you are the Body of Christ.
God has a job for each body part. If he wants a woman to Pastor, then she will.

1 Corinthians 12:20-22
But now indeed there are many members, yet one body. And the eye cannot say to the hand, I have no need of you, nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary
---miche3754 on 3/28/09


Glenn so you are saying all men are suppose to rule over all women?

Sorry to diappoint you but Christ did away with inequality in the Holy Spirit.
In Christ, there is no male or female ONLY HIS BODY.

This might be true for the flesh but not in the Spiritual Body of Christ.
By the way Glenn, those laws were aboloshed by Christ. You do know that right?
How else would we all be classified as new creatures in Christ?
Certainly not by flesh. Only by Spirit.
AND Genesis says HUSBAND not all men.
You have twisted that scripture just like other men have.
---miche3754 on 3/27/09


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miche, is the meat you eat Kosher?
1. pure
2. genuine
3. authentic
4. without impurities

Is the bread you eat unleaven?
1. without impurities


---kathr4453 on 3/24/09
Yes Kath, it is. It is called the Word of God, The Bible.
I guess you figurd on tripping me up and checking my maturity in the Word of God by asking in such a way.
Did you know that saved and sinners forms(glory)will be changed when Christ comes back? Why will sinners glory be changed too?
Because every man lives and dies unto the Lord.
---miche3754 on 3/27/09


miche 3754

Genesis 3:16, Eve desires to rule over Adam, In 4:7, Sin desires to rule over Cain. A woman can't be "obedient" to her husband, yet immodest to other men.

If you realize that one reason God does not sanction women to rule is because it is a male(s) prerogative, then, various Bible verses make sense: Deuteronomy 22:5 which also refers to a woman not taking on things which pertain to men: Numbers 12 whereat Miriam, not Aaron gets leprosy, Isaiah 3:12.

I live in the third world, God has the same rules here as there (Leviticus 10:1, Numbers 16, 2Chronicles 26:16-21, Malachi 1:7, 10).

Grace with you, amen. Glenn

p.s. Pastor G4166 (18) noun masculine
---Glenn on 3/27/09


glenn, here is what gen 3:16 says-
16Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception, in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children, and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
It says "husband" NOT pastor nor does it even address this particular issue.I am not disagreeing with it because it is true that a woman IS to be submissive to her husband.
I am wondering how this applies to a man or woman NOT doing the work BUT Christ is.
It was addressed in another blog, do you think we should call home the women that are out establishing new Churches in 3rd world contries? Because they are teaching and pastoring these churches too.
---miche3754 on 3/26/09


-*-*-MarkV:***Shawn T. I was really expecting a good answer to my question. You only told me what you had already mentioned before---MarkV. on 3/24/09***

Brother, A person isn't insane for just asking two questions, BUT asking the same two questions over & over EXPECTING a different answer is very much a definition of insanity.

MarkV, I was never in Hopes of wrestle with another man's conscious. You can listen to your conscious & rationalize Gal.3:24-25 all you want but I'm Hopeful that you'll listen to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit instead of your own conscious: For we're to do God's Will(not our own), when He tells us, the way He tells us to do it!!

Good Day to You Brother & God Bless
---Shawn_M.T. on 3/26/09


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--Anne:***Mark V. wants to follow his conscience on this issue***

Amen~Anne, Very well put! That is exactly how I feel and is what my intentions were the first time I told MarkV "Far be it form me to wrestle with another man's conscious---Shawn_M.T. on 3/4/09"

This issue, like all other issues, of our Lifestyle in Christ is another test of our Works of Faith in obediently listening to the indwelling Spirit of God's Word over our own conscious!!

Good Day to You Sister & God Bless
---Shawn_M.T. on 3/25/09


---Bob:

Amen~Bob~Amen, Very well written!

Good Day to You Brother & God Bless
---Shawn_M.T. on 3/25/09


God is offended by women 'pastors'. In order to be a pastor, one would have to listen to the Lord. The first thing that he would say is stop. I would reject the message as the messenger is untrustworthy. I would not leave a church if a woman became the 'pastor', they would kick me out, I suppose.

Women are to teach their own children / 1Timothy 2:15, and younger women / Titus 2:3-5).

Finally, It is God who limits leadership by women. And yes, God loves both women & men, in fact, so much so that he wants them to do his will, not their own.

,Glenn

p.s. Matthew 11:19 / Luke 7:35
1Corinthians 11:3-10, 13, 15, 16, 14:(33)34, 35 (36-38), and 1Timothy 2:11, 12 (8-15).

Genesis 3:16 (4:7)
---Glenn on 3/25/09


This is not a salvation issue, and I think it is wise that Mark V. wants to follow his conscience on this issue...that is the right thing to do.

I know women are commanded to witness diligently the same as men if we are truly children of God, but if people do not feel comfortable to have a woman leading over an organized church setting because of what they read in scripture, then they should follow their God given conscience and be obedient to it.

That is all I have to say. Good day to all.
---Anne on 3/25/09


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Shawn T, now you call it insanity by asking you to answer two simple questions. Since other words are starting to come out from you other then my disobedience you mentioned, I will close with just saying that when Paul spoke of who was to be leaders of the New Church he didn't say the instructions were not valid at some other time, or that by been under Grace what he was saying didn't mean nothing, or that the new believer from now on doesn't have to follow any commands or laws of God since he is guided by the Holy Spirit. In fact guided by the Spirit we love to follow what God has to say in His Word.
Thank you Shawn T for answering me, peace I give you, blessings to you.
---MarkV. on 3/25/09


God has given Gifts to His Body ALL His Body regardless of male or female. Woman did prophesy in the Church. But we must remember our GIFT is not a position of authority over anyone. AND we dont measure ourselves by someone elses Gift. We are to grow in our own Gift, and keep our nose out of others Gifts. Some ignorantly think we are all to do and be EXACTLY like anyone else. The Eye is not the hand, and the toe is not the finger. TOES should not Judge fingers and say.why are you not being a toe like me.

BUT the Administrative office of Bishop/Elder is not a GIFT. The Gifts are listed in Ephesians 4, explained in 1st Corinthians 12-14.
---kathr4453 on 3/25/09


I said amen , mark because I agree with what you said. The HS(Holy Spirit) is in control and is the 1 thats working.
The HS in men is the same in women. When either 1 are ministering, its not their flesh thats ministering, its the HS.
Paul was talking about fleshly laws of man.
If you walk in the HS and minister in the HS, are you under the laws of man(flesh)?
NO.
The simple laws are the 10 commandments. That is it.
Not that a woman shouldn't do this or that for the Lord.
These specific laws are no more because we are in Christ. We obey the 10c's, not the extra ceremonial laws that don't apply and were for the edification of flesh. Thats what Shawn's trying to tell you. Yes, I've read/ understand your posts.
---miche3754 on 3/25/09


--MarkV:

MarkV, A definition of insanity is, to ask the same question over & over EXPECTING a different answer. So, lets try an keep this discussion far from that fringes of insanity!

<<<< IF >>>>>...is a little word but makes a big difference when left OUT...and is why you didn't understand!!!

You've stated~We might not understand the reason with our finite minds, but we don't question God as to the rules. That is my conscious.---MarkV. on 3/3/09

Well MarkV, Paul gave them the guidelines & Paul told them when to no longer remain under the guidelines. So Why are you letting your obedience to Gal.3:24-25 be undermined by any confusion your conscious may be having in struggling to understand it first?
---Shawn_M.T. on 3/25/09


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I do not argue, I do not debate, so why am I only being posted once a day?
---catherine on 3/25/09


Miche, what I am discussing with Shawn T, is very important. I know what he say's is very important. You, on the other hand, wrote what I wrote and then said Amen, which gives me to understand that you did not understand what I wrote. Did you even read, "Spirit's control-that is, responds in obedience to the simple commands of Scripture.." What are the commands of Scripture, the guideline to who should lead a church. And since you do not agree with obeying and keeping the simple commands of Scripture, and are oppose to following them, you still said, Amen. How can you be for both sides? You just didn't read my statement correctly. I believe you are answering from a womens point of view, and not from God's point and reason.
---MarkV. on 3/24/09


Jewish wives were considered second rate citizens back then, so I've been told. Jewish men would not tolerate having women speak to them in any authoritative position. I'm sure Paul was aware of the problems this would cause in trying to further the establishment of the church. Not to mention the confusion, anger, resentment, etc... I'm sure God would be pleased with women teaching His Word accurately and helping His children to draw closer to Him. All of His children have the right to choose and support the pastor of their choice. We all belong to the same body of Christ and as heirs, we all belong to the same family.
---Bob on 3/24/09


Nana, nowhere have I ever changed my beliefs on this...as posted all over this site.

Do you not believe in the second coming of Christ? What Zechariah is is the second coming of Jesus Christ for real...not symbolically.

Your not one of those scoffers that Peter talks about that say...Where is the promise of His coming..things will continue just as they always have. Peter warns of those who don't believe in His second coming.

I believe the Bride of Christ will be taken out before that terrible day of the Lord...and will return with Him at His second coming, setting up His earthly Kingdom. We are going to REIGN and RULE with Him, just as scriptue states.

---kathr4453 on 3/24/09


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See kath, God gives us a measuring stick to see if a person truly has Christ in them. Galatians 5 say we will know them byt the Fruits of the Holy Spirit. And A mature Christian has these.
...miche3754 on 3/24/09


No Miche, God has never given YOU a measuring stick to measure Christ in me. He gave you one to measure Christ in you. We don't measure ourselves to each other.

To know someone by their fruit is to know someone by the TRUTH.

WE don't provoke others by telling them their truth is headknowledge, only milk, etc. THAT is measuring yourself to them....and exalting yourself over them. THAT is not the fruit of the Spirit miche, it's arrogance! That's immaturity!
---kathr4453 on 3/24/09


cont to miche please:
miche, is the meat you eat Kosher?
1. pure
2. genuine
3. authentic
4. without impurities

Is the bread you eat unleaven?
1. without impurities

---kathr4453 on 3/24/09


All I can say is this...If you are offended by one of God's own woman pastor, then leave.
---catherine on 3/24/09


"Walking also implies progress, as a believer submits to the Spirit's control-that is, responds in obedience to the simple commands of Scripture-he grows in his spiritual life (Eph. 5:18, Col. 3:16). Righteous behavior should be the common attitude of each believer.
---MarkV. on 3/24/09
Amen !!!!
And mark, when we are walking like this, and serving Christ, are we male or female? Not in HIS Spirit. It Christ doing the work not us. So whether it is male or female in flesh should not matter. It is whether Christ Spirit is in them doing the work. And we can tell by their Spiritual fruits if they are true or not, right?
---miche3754 on 3/24/09


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you know Kath, I respect you very much. It has just been here lately that I ? your true Christian walk. Because of the recent fruit you have shown.
I have read your post for months, and I have seen you change your stance on lots of things.
It just bewilders me that someone in Christ for 30 years gets tossed to an fro like that.
The stance I have on Christ has not changed since I first got saved at 12 years old. In fact, the more I learn from my elders(You, Shawn, mark, and Others) has strenghtened that stance. NOT tossed to and fro.
I know that Ministry is neither male or female- IT IS NOT US- IT IS CHRIST WORKING.
So, how can someone say a woman in Christ can't do these things if it isn't her working , its Christ?
---miche3754 on 3/24/09


Shawn T. 2, You give great answers and I really respect you a whole lot but I don't understand why you would say what you said to me. You said, " you wish to be disobedient after come to Faith, then that between the Lord & your conscious....and far be it from me to get between the Lord & another man's conscious!" I ask you, why did you even say that to me? Where am I been disobedient?" You must mean I am disobedient to what you believe or say. I could not posibly be disobedint to the Word of God since the Word of God is the one been reveal to us. Does not God speak to us through His Word? Does not the Spirit bring light to it? I don't understand you logic and sentence to me.
---MarkV. on 3/24/09


Walking in the spirit from Galatians 5:16--All genuine believers have the presence of the indwelling Holy Spirit (Rom. 8:9, 1 Cor.6:19,20) as a personal power to please God. The form of the greek word "walk" indicates continuous action, or a habitual lifestyle. "Walking also implies progress, as a believer submits to the Spirit's control-that is, responds in obedience to the simple commands of Scripture-he grows in his spiritual life (Eph. 5:18, Col. 3:16). Righteous behavior should be the common attitude of each believer.
---MarkV. on 3/24/09


See kath, God gives us a measuring stick to see if a person truly has Christ in them. Galatians 5 say we will know them byt the Fruits of the Holy Spirit. And A mature Christian has these.
I for some reason don't see them in you. You get mad when someone doesn't agree with your "opinion"
I know what the WHOLE of the Bible tells me.
So your scholary knowledge is all well and good but when it comes time for judgement, I am more concerned about obeying my heavenly Father than I am about constantly insulting people with "less" book knowledge.
---miche3754 on 3/24/09


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Shawn T. I was really expecting a good answer to my question. You only told me what you had already mentioned before. Brother, let me say my faith is stronger today then it has ever been. And I know already that we have been under grace from Genesis. What I was saying or meant was, that The Church had just been extablished and Paul is giving the guidelines in who is to run the New Church. You say we don't have to go by those guidelines. The Church goes by guidelines. It has to have guidelines. Not just anyone can lead the Church. You are saying, who cares. The visible church is made up of tares and wheat.
It is not a matter of whether I want to obey God by faith or not, obedience is not an uption for any genuine believer.
---MarkV. on 3/24/09


kathr4453,
What made you change your position in your affirmations of 3/20/09?
I spoke other things in between on account of those things you held up to us before that. Nevertheless, this that you say 3/23/09 contradicts that which you declared 3/20/09. Could you please take one side or the other? "Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord."
He came and thereafter (hereafter) is the "henceforth even for ever", Amen.
---Nana on 3/24/09


To Whosoever has an ear to hear?

The letter of the Law of a SchoolMaster is only a guide to bring Believers in Christ, into 'Faith'.

After Faith has come, the Holy Ghost is now our Guide to teach & keep us in remembrance of everything the Lord shared about our Heavenly Father's and His Kingdom. The Holy Spirit(unlike a SchoolMaster) is able to convict our hearts into obediently doing the Justifying Works of the Spirit of God which keeps our new found 'Faith Alive': which enabling us to endure and overcome.

This is why Paul instructed the Believers in Christ to follow the Messianic Law but he also instructed them that after coming to 'Faith in Christ' they were no longer to abide under a SchoolMaster.
---Shawn_M.T. on 3/23/09


***Any Godly knowledge comes from The HS which teaches us ALL THINGS.
The things you apply here are from studying books with man's opinion about the Bible and it's laws.Miche***


Sorry Miche to totally disappoint you, again making a judgement call that is not true.

The Book I read is the Bible....GOD's opinion. God's Word, and the scripture I place here is not out of Books, teh book of Mormon or any other suppliment...but out of the Bible. Now it may not be YOUR version, but it is the KJV I use.

This is line upon line, precept upon precept of 30 years of the Holy Spirit teaching me throught the fellowship of His sufferings.

Thats how I KNOW HIM...Intimitely very intimitely!!!
---kathr4453 on 3/23/09


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--MarkV:

Brother, God's Grace has always been with us. I've been sharing Paul's Gal. 3:24-25: being Justified by faith & walking after the Spirit.

Those who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit, do so by 'Faith in Christ' & AREN'T WITHOUT A LAW: For the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ hath made them free from the Law of sin & death which was their SchoolMaster that God told them to no longer follow under after coming to Faith.---Shawn_M.T. on 3/18/09

If you wish to be disobedient after come to Faith, then that between the Lord & your conscious....and far be it from me to get between the Lord & another man's conscious!

Good Day to You Brother & God Bless
---Shawn_M.T. on 3/23/09


Nana,
Isaiah 9:
6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever.

Nana, the Government has not YET been upon His shoulders....and the Throne of David is not yet established.

Read Zachariah 12-14.....WHEN did this happen? When has the Glorified RISEN Christ returned and set down on the mount of olives?
---kathr4453 on 3/23/09


Actually kath, it is Head knowledge.

Any Godly knowledge comes from The HS which teaches us ALL THINGS.
The things you apply here are from studying books with man's opinion about the Bible and it's laws.
Not condemning or anything just speaking what I have seen and read from you.
There is a difference between the Laws and being in Christ.
When in Christ, we aren't under the Law or School master.
We are neither male or female/ We are the Body of Christ. An we are suppose to be working to lift up Christ, and edifying each other. Not tearing each other down.
---miche3754 on 3/23/09


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