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False Doctrines In Church

I have come to the conclusion that a person could start a new religion and hundreds would follow no matter how false the doctrine would be. Anyone else see this happening today?

Moderator - Of course, go visit most local churches today.

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 ---Susie on 10/16/06
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1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

I have seen far too many priests (and a few pastors) that simply know the Bible but have little if any ability to discern things that are spiritual.

While they can do much talk about "P" & "Q" sources from which the Bible was developed, they are lost when speaking of Jesus and what it means to know Him in a personal way or to have a fellowship with Him.
---Lee1538 on 8/1/08


But Nicole...we were not talking about baking a cake...we were talking about using your common sense to understand the Word of God and not relying on the Holy Spirit. You cannot compare the two. And you were saying that if I did not understand something in the Bible...God was telling me to just use my common sense to interpret. I said...no...it's the Holy Spirit who gives understanding. It's about reliance on God...not self. Remember, we are to die to self. And as I said before...His ways are not our ways, His thoughts are not our thoughts. Most of the time our thoughts from our finite minds are wrong.
---Holly4jc on 7/12/08


So then Nicole, since you have this amazing gift of common sense, then it is safe to say that you understand absolutely EVERYTHING in the Bible...since you say if something is "odd and doesn't make sense" then rely on your common sense to figure it out. You must have the entire Bible figured out. That's amazing!
---Holly4jc on 7/10/08

No, that's the good thing about common sense. You don't have to know everything in the Bible, but enough to realize that someone is trying to pull a fast one on you.

It's just like you don't have to be Betty Crocker to know that you must break the eggs first before putting them into the batter.

You know - Common Sense.
---Nicole on 7/11/08


frances, frances, you need correcting. Jesus was talking about not their words based on what one says, but to the outward evidence of the inward attitude of the heart. My God is a heart God. Study for yourself.>> [Matt. 12:43] The Pharisees were known by their wickedness. False teachers and preachers some can be dangerous when pushed into a corner.
---catherine on 7/11/08


Jesus called the Pharisees and Scribes 'Vipers' because they were full of poisonous teachings. John the Apostle hated the Nicolaitans who had their priests. Jesus said 'it is not your blindness that makes me angry, it is because you say 'We see! We See!'. Nicole, don't you recognize your own Church there. They come up with all the answers to the Bible, only they come to the wrong answers. Yes, we should obey God's commands as you so rightly understood. So why don't you. Instead you put your religion between you and God, and forever cut off from Him.
---frances008 on 7/11/08




**
I know what the Bible says about understanding scripture and I completely understand that the Holy Spirit is required in order to understand.
**

When the Comforter (Holy Spirit) comes ...sent by Christ from the Father to all bringing spirit of Truth (John 15:26)

Acts 1:14-16, describes the men and women, including Mary the mother of Christ, who were the first 120 in the upper room to receive the gift of Gods Holy Spirit

Acts 2:1-4 ALL were filled with Holy Spirit ...the all refers to the people who were in the upper room in Acts 1:14-16
---Rhonda on 7/10/08


Per Nicole...Which is it Holly? If Common Sense comes from God, it is using the Gifts of God. I think you are confused in what you are trying to say to me.But I am not confused. I said thank God I have common sense not to take YOUR INTERPRETATION OF THE SCRIPTURES.
I know that ALL THINGS are from God. If something is odd, and doesn't make sense. Trust me, God is telling you to use the common sense HE GAVE YOU!

So then Nicole, since you have this amazing gift of common sense, then it is safe to say that you understand absolutely EVERYTHING in the Bible...since you say if something is "odd and doesn't make sense" then rely on your common sense to figure it out. You must have the entire Bible figured out. That's amazing!
---Holly4jc on 7/10/08


Thank you for your concern Nicole..but I am not confused at all. I know what the Bible says about understanding scripture and I completely understand that the Holy Spirit is required in order to understand.

And I am very blessed for I have tons of common sense...as a matter of fact...I am always complemented and recognized for my level of wisdom and common sense that the Lord has given me. But I also have enough "wisdom and common sense" to know that I cannot interpret the Bible on my own, that I need to rely completely on the Holy Spirit for understanding. :-)
---Holly4jc on 7/10/08


Harold, Matthew 7:21-23, states "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of Heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in Heaven. Many will say to me on that day. 'Lord, Lord,....Did we not do mighty deeds in your name? Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.'

This is our point. Jesus is clear on Salvation and on His Church. He stated certain commands, which many refuse to accept.
Many choose to go into the Letters after the Gospels and form their own way of Salvation. They think because they do mighty deeds that they are okay in their own Church.
Jesus said you must do the WILL OF THE FATHER. Not the will of themselves.
---Nicole on 7/10/08


What is the true church?
Any local and denominational church, or
The invisable and eternal church that are only made of true belivers chossen by God himself?
Do you thing that belonging to any local church will bring you salvation?
Do you know what Jesus Christ speak to those who are in the churches that they are NOT knowing by him. Please read Mathew 7:21-23, very, very carefuly.
---Harold on 7/10/08




..not try and understand things according to our own intelligence and understanding..--Holly4jc

Which is it Holly? If Common Sense comes from God, it is using the Gifts of God.
I think you are confused in what you are trying to say to me.
But I am not confused. I said thank God I have common sense not to take YOUR INTERPRETATION OF THE SCRIPTURES.
I know that ALL THINGS are from God. If something is odd, and doesn't make sense. Trust me, God is telling you to use the common sense HE GAVE YOU!

Many people don't use their gift of common sense and reply on their mentor in their Church. That's repling on your own thoughts.
God is the giver of Gifts.
Common sense is a gift from God.

COMMON SENSE ISN'T TOO COMMON!
---Nicole on 7/9/08


No one is saying NOT to use the common sense God gave us as we live our daily lives, it's a blessing to have and many are without it. But...the Word of God clearly says that we need the Holy Spirit to teach us and reveal to us the truth of God's Word. This is one place where we need to put "common sense and human reasoning" aside and be open to allow the HS to reveal His truths to us and not try and understand things according to our own intelligence and understanding. He says..His thoughts are not our thoughts and His ways are not our ways...they are so much higher than ours. So...put aside the common sense and ask the Holy Spirit to reveal things the way God sees them, not the way your own mind sees them or wants to see them. :-)
---Holly4jc on 7/9/08


"The True Church" consist of the aggregate of all regenerated believers who have lived at any time during the period between Pentecost and the Rapture. All such are united to Christ and to one another by the baptism of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor.12:12,13, Rom. 6:3,4, Col. 2:22,23, Gal. 3:27). The Church is also pictured as Christ "body" with Christ personally as the "Head" Eph. 1:22,23. It is also described as a holy "temple" for God to live in by the Spirit, (Eph. 2:21,22). The church is also seen espoused to Christ as a pure virgin to one husband (2 Cor. 11:2) she will be glorified at Christ's return in the air. The Church is formed by the crucified, risen, and ascended Lord Jesus Christ.
---Mark_V. on 7/9/08


Nicole , this is what the Bible teaches!!!!

Ephesians 1:20-23

20Which He (GOD) wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly place,--kathr4453 on 7/8/08

It isn't I who picks and choose which parts of the Bible, I will accept, but you.

Because the Bible also teaches Matthew 16:13-19, which you reject.

You love the letters better than the Gospels, because you can spin the letters better than the Gospels.

Read the Gospels and figure out what JESUS TEACHES!!!!!
---Nicole on 7/8/08


And the Word of God says..the wisdom of man is foolishness to God.It also says that things of the spirit can only be discerned by the Spirit of God..having common sense is of no help at all in understanding God's Word.-Holly4jc

Are you now saying not to use the common sense God gave us?

I notice you didn't say anything about reading. I thanked God for Reading and Common Sense. You only picked one part,and twisted my words. I never said wisdom.
Show Scriptures saying not to use common sense, not wisdom.

Yes,I will continue to Praise God for the common sense He gave me. It has saved me from your spinning stuff.
But,why should I be upset. You spin the Bible your way.

Who am I for you not to do the same to my words?
---Nicole on 7/8/08


Per Nicole...Thank God I can Read and have common sense.

And the Word of God says...the wisdom of man is foolishness to God. It also says that things of the spirit can only be discerned by the Spirit of God. So...having common sense is of no help at all in understanding God's Word. You need the Holy Spirit to show you the truth of His Word. You need to be born-again and filled with the Holy Spirit.
---Holly4jc on 7/8/08


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Nicole , this is what the Bible teaches!!!!

Ephesians 1:20-23

20Which He (GOD) wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

21Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

22And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him ( Jesus Christ) to be the head over all things to the church,

23Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
---kathr4453 on 7/8/08


Nicole, the RCC is corruptible, as any man made institutions. The True Church is Christ Himself..the Incorruptible Christ.
For this corruptible must put on Incorruptible...only Christ is incorruptible. So Nicole, NO the RCC is not the TRUE Church, anymore then the SB, or, JW, Mormons, Methodists etc, etc.--kathr4453

Thank God I can Read and have common sense.

I can Read Matthew 16:13-19, I am sorry if you are having problems with this Scripture. You should take a day and mediate on it all day long. Pray for Truth.

Too bad Jesus doesn't agree with you.
Since He is the One who died for me. I will take His Words over yours.

Yes, it was Man Made. Jesus was both Man and God. Jesus the Man start the RCC.
---Nicole on 7/7/08


Kathrn::So it is Your contention that God who Knows all the future of this world Creates a "MY CHURCH"matt17-19 Knowing full well it is corruptible even inspite of the Guidance by the Holy Spirit For all times .This statement of Yours underestimates the power of the Almighty God I serve, But He is the God Of My Choice one Flock ome Shepherd and those who Follow Him.Your choice of a different God is yours.
---Emcee on 7/7/08


Nicole, the RCC is corruptible, as any man made institutions. The True Church is Christ Himself..the Incorruptible Christ.

For this corruptible must put on Incorruptible....only Christ is incorruptible. So Nicole, NO the RCC is not the TRUE Church, anymore then the SB, or, JW, Mormons, Methodists etc, etc.

HE is the Head of the Church, and we are His Body...those baptized into Christ make up the TRUE Church.

---kathr4453 on 7/7/08


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The salvation of each individual cannot be seen by the natural eye. It can only be seen by God. It is a Spiritual rebirth. Not a human rebirth. "can a person enter a second time into his mothers womb and be born?" Nicodemus was just like most of you. Not understanding that Rebirth is a Spiritual rebirth. All those who are Spiritually alive to Christ make what is the Church of Christ, His bride. A part of His body where He is the Head of that body. That is a body that is invisible when believed by faith.
If the RCC as a whole was the True Church of Christ, then Jesus body would consist of criminals, molesters, liar's, etc. Only the individuals who committed their life's to Christ are part of that body.
---Mark_V. on 7/7/08


Lee1538,Then READ YOUR BIBLE!
The other 5 Sacraments you claim isn't in the Bible.
1. EUCHARIST John chapter 6
2. RECONCILIATION AND PENANCE(Confession)John 20-21-23,"As the Father has sent me,so I send you..Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them,and whose sins you retain are retained."
Jesus didn't give the Disciples power to read minds. People have to tell their SINS.
3. ANOINTING OF THE SICK Mark6:13..They(Disciples)..anointed with oil many who were sick and cured them. James5:14-15..summon the PRESBYTERS OF THE CHURCH, and they should pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord,..
4. HOLY ORDERS Acts 1:6-26,1 Tim 4:14,2 Tim 1:1-14
5. CONFIRMATION John 3:33-34,Luke12:12,ACTS2:1-4,11,17-18
---Nicole on 7/6/08


That is simply because the scripture only has 2 sacraments, not the 7 of the Roman Church. Protestantism, or should I more accurately say, biblical Christianity is based upon the Bible alone for its doctrinal beliefs, not the add-on created by man.

---Lee1538 on 7/4/08



But where in scripture does it say Bible alone?
---Ruben on 7/6/08


Nicole - *If someone disagrees - they leave and start another Church. Another beginning. No connection.This is not so with the RCC and the Eastern Church.

What really happens is that people who become disillusioned with their church, simply seek one that preaches the gospel rather than the traditons of man which have been put on the same level as scripture or they simply drop out all together.

And it is easy to see that both Roman Catholicism as well as the Eastern Church are denominations in turmoil as too much of their practices & beliefs are designed to control people for the benefit of their own organization.
---Lee1538 on 7/6/08


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Nicole - *many questioned and reform the Church. The Orthodox did questioned and left. But, they left with the full Authority of the Sacraments. Protestants left with 2.

That is simply because the scripture only has 2 sacraments, not the 7 of the Roman Church. Protestantism, or should I more accurately say, biblical Christianity is based upon the Bible alone for its doctrinal beliefs, not the add-on created by man.
---Lee1538 on 7/4/08


Lee1538, many questioned and reform the Church. The Orthodox did questioned and left. But, they left with the full Authority of the Sacraments. Protestants left with 2.

The rationale is that RCC/Eastern can literally trace back to Peter.

Acts1:15-26,they prayed,and gave lots and chose Matthias to replace Judas.

Do you think they just stopped replacing the Apostles after the 12 men died? No,they continue, esp for Peter's position. We can connect back bacause we continued the Tradition.

This may seems hard for you to understand as a Protestant. Because of no Tradition.
If someone disagrees - they leave and start another Church. Another beginning. No connection.
This is not so with the RCC and the Eastern Church.
---Nicole on 7/3/08


LEE:: you have the same opportunity of getting to see God By His way If you still desire to question YOUR CREATOR.otherwise YOU will lose the opportunity completely and then you can question who it is you Follow.Children dont question their fathers they TRUST,which is what is desired."Heaven is made of such as one of these".But you have a free will,choice- dont Gamble with it.
---Emcee on 7/3/08


Everyone wants to believe they are the true Church. The RCCm the Mormons, the JW's etc---kathr4453

I don't have to believe, I KNOW I AM IN THE TRUE CHURCH. I have prayed and listened.

With the Bible in Matthew 16:13-19, written form. But mostly with the Grace of God giving me Common Sense, Logic and even Historians backing up the Church existance back to Jesus Himself.

I didn't just didn't accept what Man told me. I prayed and left my ear's opened to listen to the Holy Spirit.

Most others are afraid to open their mind to Jesus'Grace, Logic,and Common Sense for fear of lies being true concerning the RCC.

Once you Trust in Jesus and not fear 'Fear' itself. You can reason.
---Nicole on 7/3/08


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3) Peter himself once said to his accusers 'it is better to obey God than man'(Acts 5:29), how then are we commanded obey without question an institution that is easily corrupted?
---Lee1538 on 7/3/08



Well God himself said " My Flesh is real food and my blood is real drink, but yet you do not believe!
---Ruben on 7/3/08


Nicole - Your problem is that you have never questioned the nature of these verses in Matthew 16.

1) the verses do not even mention the Roman Catholic, Orthodox church or any other denomination.

2) there is virtually no rationale for believing that if the church was "built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone" (Eph. 2:20), that there was any special authority passed downward to the bishop of Rome or of Constantiople.

3) Peter himself once said to his accusers 'it is better to obey God than man'(Acts 5:29), how then are we commanded obey without question an institution that is easily corrupted?
---Lee1538 on 7/3/08


Everyone wants to believe they are the true Church. The RCCm the Mormons, the JW's etc, etc, but the Church is HIS Body. Bone of His Bone....flesh of His flesh.

Just as Eve was taken out of Adam's side,and ONE with Him, so the True church, His Bride. We are called the Body of Christ. We enter The Church in our identification with Him in Death and Resurrection Life. This is called the Gospel according to the Mystery. The Mystery is Christ in you, the Hope of GLORY .

The CHURCH is seeted with christ in Heavenly Places in Christ Jesus. We are hidden with God in Christ.

The RCC has nothing what so ever to do with the Biblical Teaching of the True Church.

The RCC is a MOCK church.
---kathr4453 on 7/3/08


All::The bible is all about Jesus His teachings and specific ways how to simpllify life for those who desire to Follow him as a,"Flock and He the shepherd).Matt16:17-19 attests to this which is also reiterated By NicoleHe says :MY church"so EVERYTHING in the Gospels epistles OT NT writings pertain to MY church.which is the RCC.People who have made their own venue therefore are on the outside looking In.The ticket is "MY church" to get IN The truth must be told even if not followed, by believing, nonbelievers.This is Gods word.
---Emcee on 7/3/08


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Since Jesus was talking to a person and not to the air in Matthew 16:13-19. This is the only evident of Jesus starting a Church.

It's in the Bible and it is clear. All others are started by men. They try to copy Jesus, but they do not have the Power from on High to support their type of Church.

Jesus only promised One Church, Roman Catholic Church. So, far only She has remained as He promised.

Jesus if True and Faithful. He keeps all He promises.
---Nicole on 7/2/08


Religions was started with constantine(catholocism,the first trinity org.)are MAN-MADE religions,doctrines,teachings. Because,their idol worship etc & God has NOTHING to do with them. God gave NO man charge or authority to be called a father in a religious org. For catholocism is,Matt. 15 v 9,2nd Corin. 4 v 4,Revel 17 v's 4-7 & with other scriptures. The True Salvation plan was given to Apostle Peter from The Lord,to the Jewish people First on the day of Pentecost,Acts 2 v's 37-40 which fulfills Matt 28 v's 19-20 & the Whole Lot of God's Word we should live up to. Apostle Paul brought this very same Salvation message to us gentiles later. Freedom of religion is Not scriptural,But, God does give us people a choice. Thank you.
---Lawrence on 7/2/08


False doctrines and the people who follow them are more prevalent today then ever, because the deceiver and antiChrist knows that he only has a short time remaining and he wants to take as many souls into hell with him as possible. People today need to be under the blood of Jesus, walking in his Holy Spirit, and not entertaining any sin. For when the sky parts and the Lord comes with his host you best better be doing his will and not serving sin.
---Eloy on 7/1/08


One would be the Manifest Sons of God movement.

The MSG originated from the Latter Rain Movement of the 40's and 50's.Latter Day Rain false teaching: believe a revival will come as the result of the Church defeating demonic spirits through prayer, fasting and spiritual warfare, conducted through intense worship and praise, and by rebuking demonic powers and territorial spirits. The restoration of praise and worship is known as the Tabernacle of David, and includes dancing, singing, and exuberant praise in tongues.



The CHURCH
1 Corinthians 3:16-18
16Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

The Church is not the Tabernacle of David!!!!
---kathr4453 on 7/1/08


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Yep, the Moderator is right about this one!
---james on 6/7/08


mima there is a saying:::those that blow the same trumpet and the same tune at the same person are empty vessels themselves.
---pop on 6/6/08


I don't know about hundreds, but one will doubtless attract a following.

However, once more the moderator gives a blog a misleading title.

Your posting, as such, as nothing to do with "false doctrines in the church."
---Jack on 6/5/08


Zech 11:2
Howl, fir trees, for the cedar is fallen because the mighty are spoiled,
howl, O ye oaks of Bashan, for the forest of the vintage is come down.
John 9:39
Matt. 10:34

Judgment starts at God's house. Church leaders have spoiled themselves with God's finances, corresponding excess and greed. Judgment comes to His leadership so that the Body may fear with holy awe.
Then He judges the Body that the world might fear.
The He judges the world that all might fear.

MMR
---Michelle on 10/10/07


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Not saying that ministers shouldn't have homes/cars.
I'm talking about the sifting of shepherds.

Zech 11:3
There is a voice of the howling of the shepherds, for their glory is spoiled.

They're not weeping for sheep, but their glory, reputation, their financial status. They will be busy weeping for themselves and won't have time to weep for all those affected by their bad decisions. There will be those who will wail for those traumatized by a shepherd's selfishness.

MMR
---Michelle on 10/10/07


Joel 2:12 Joel 2:17

Let the priests, ministers of the Lord weep between the porch and the alter...
Turn ...with fasting, weeping, mourning until every hindrance is removed and the broken fellowship is restored.

MMR
---Michelle on 10/10/07


Some will lose everything, but in their loss they will find the Lord as they have not known Him in years.
Some may have never known Him, they will just leave the ministry. Some will be taken by death. Others will now become goat leaders.
Sifting of the shepherds. All facades are being removed. True hearts will be exposed.
Goat leaders will gather more insincere flock.

God's Word says the ministry in this hour will be purity in humility.

MMR
---Michelle on 10/10/07


The New Thought Movement is in our churches now.it is metaphysical beliefs concerning healing, life force, visualization, and personal power. It promotes the ideas that God is all powerful and ubiquitous, spirit is the totality of real things, true human self-hood is divine, divine thought is a force for good, all sickness originates in the mind, and 'right thinking' has a healing effect.
---the_watchman on 10/10/07


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Perhaps the biggest problem in the greater Christian community is that there is no one who can authoritatively arbitrate doctrinal disputes.
---InimicusStultitiae on 10/10/07


Susie)AMEN:I left my church out of deep conviction it was "SO" off that I should not be there. Too commercial and too much was simply MAN'S teaching. It is sad because I have actually lost friends over it. I suppose they weren't really friends in the first place but the sad thing is the condition of the CHURCH TODAY and the coldness that is occurring right before our eyes.Our brothers and sisters are hellbound and they won't listen.Lost friends I can handle but seeing them rot in HELL,I can't.
---splaa6685j on 10/10/07


Yes, look at the Mormons, Jehovah's witness, etc.
---sam on 10/10/07


The harlot of Revelation must have daughters or her network would not work. Seek the mother church and look for likeness in her daughters past, present, and future.
---mikefl on 10/17/06


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Kathrn::Even in the OT the people of Israel did not listen to the prophets but carried on in their own way.They were steeped in sin & desire of wealth & flesh debauchery.But the OT also shows people who were steadfast & did not listen to the opposition They survived.This is so evident on this small forum. The inroads of Satanism must be trampled upon & this will only happen One flock one shepherd.
---Emcee on 10/17/06


Just witnessed this last September 2005. The church idolized the Assistant Pastor, it was like he was god to them. I saw it with my own eyes and couldn't believe it. When he left, they left with him and left the Senior Pastor, a dear man of God, only 12 stayed behind, the other 40 followed the Pastor. I'm glad the real ones were left behind, now I go back there to worship with the true worshippers in Spirit and in Truth, not in idolatry.
---Donna9759 on 10/17/06


I have seen this all over. It's men putting their faith in the doctrine of Man, and not God's word. Most people do not read the Bible, and just take someone's word for what is taught. People think because they are popular that they are of God. This has been going on since the beginning of mankind. The OT is full of warnings to those who were listening to false prophets and false teachers. It's never changed.
---kathr4453 on 10/17/06


While witnessing I hear many false doctrines. I'm not too bad a person, I'm doing the best I can, I'm trying, I keep the 10 Commandments, I go to church,I have been baptized, and on and on and on. But when told what they can do to be saved, by following the instructions in the Bible, over 70% nearer 80% quickly pray for their salvation.
---mima on 10/17/06


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False belief leads not only to Hell, but to a world shattered by differences. The extreme Muslims are a shining example.

These things have to happen and will as long as fallen man lives in a fallen world, but it's our trend to reverse and destroy these things.
---Pharisee on 10/17/06


Yes! The Word of GOD, speaks in the Last Days Men will become Lover's of Themselves because There Deeds or Wicked and Evil. Pride will become the Enemy that will Control the Doctrine, and Feel Good Sermons and not Conviction of Sin. Having a form of godliness and denying the Power Thereof: from such away. 2Timothy 3:5
---renat3893 on 10/17/06


Thats true. One doctrine that comes to mind is the doctrine of receiving eternal life by keeping the Mosaic Law.
---Kay on 10/16/06


greetings,the pharisees said, "behold the world has gone after him".they also said,"if we leave him alone all men will believe on him".---jesus said "i have many thing to say unto you but you cannot bear them now".is jesus not finished speaking to the human race?will any notice?jesus said many will surface, teaching as if he authorized it.cannot anyone say jesus authorized their teachings?can you give an example of false doctrine?
---earl on 10/16/06


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Nothing has changed. It's always been like this. Look at the crusaders. They actually thought they were following God too. In the dark ages and up to a few decades ago most people followed one church and they were'nt even allowed to own a Bible.
---john on 10/16/06


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