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Jesus Is The Real God

How can we prove our Jesus is the real God before people of other religions?

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 ---George on 10/22/06
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Exo 17:2b,7b wherefore do ye tempt the LORD?...because they tempted the LORD,
Deu 6:16 Ye shall not tempt the LORD your God, as ye tempted [him] in Massah.
1Cor 10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ
Psa 78:18a And they tempted God in their heart(+vv 41,56)
Psa 106:14b and tempted God in the desert.
Mal 3:15b [they that] tempt God are even delivered.
Acts 5:9b How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord?
Acts 15:10a Now therefore why tempt ye God
Heb 3:9 When your fathers tempted me
Hebrews 4:15b but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin.
You may want to get a better understanding of your uncontested interpretation of Jam 1:13 there david8318.
---micha9344 on 6/28/10
---micha9344 on 7/1/10


Personally, I don't believe Christ has to prove anything. I think since Christ claimed to be the Son of God, those other "faiths" had better come up with a way to disprove His declaration.

Matthew 7:13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the road is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many that go through it."

The sinners at the Tower of Babel believed in The Almighty and they shot arrows into the clouds hoping to kill Him.

Even if you could show these people a video of The Almighty and His Son creating the universe, they still love the darkness more than the light. If you could prove it to them, you would rob them of faith and without faith we cannot please The Almighty.
---Higgins on 7/1/10


No I agree, I don't believe Warwick can claim any comparable oneness, unity or honour with the Father. (Warwick 7/1/10)

Jesus continues the thought of unity in his defence at John 10:38. At John 17:21, Jesus said of true Christians, "just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us". So yes, true Christians can be "...in union (at one) with us (Jehovah and Jesus)".

Paul said at 2 Cor.3:18 that true Christians would "reflect like mirrors the glory of Jehovah". So in the context of John 14:9, onlookers should be able to discern in true Christians a reflection of God's glory.

True Christians can, but Warwick is a Neo-platonic trinitarian.
---David8318 on 7/1/10


Warwick, Still Waiting...

On 6/29/10 you argued that the only reason Jesus referred to Jehovah as 'his God' was because he was 'emptied', in a man's form. But of course Rev 3:12 in addition to Rom 15:6, 2 Cor 1:3, 11:31, Eph 1:17, 1 Peter 1:3 were all written after his resurrection and glorification in heaven and there we find references to the God of Christ.

If now your position is that Christ is merely 'distinguishing himself'...

What scriptural evidence can you provide that the word theos/God doesn't always indicate some sense of superiority over the one who refers to another as such?
---scott on 7/1/10


"People are baptized into His name" Warwick

And what exactly is 'His' name?


Many inanimate things that the bible personalizes are not actually persons.

'Justice is turned back.' Is 59:14

'The land cries out.' Job 31:38-40 NIV

'Truth dies.' Jer 7:28

'Truth is lied to.'' James 3:14 KJ, RSV

Etc., etc.

Is justice a person? The land? Is truth an actual person because the bible personifies it in this way?
---scott on 7/1/10




Higgins Jesus claimed He was God-For example John 10:33 "We are not stoning you for any of these, replied the Jews, but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

Why did He, God appearing in flesh, say "I and the Father are one" if they are not one?

Luke 18:18-19 a ruler addressed Jesus as "Good teacher." Jesus replied "no one is good except God alone." John 10 Jesus said "I am the good shepherd."

Only God is good
Jesus claimied to be good
Therefore Jesus claimed to be God

In Luke Jesus was not saying He did not have the 'goodness' characteristic of God but asked-Do you understand what you mean by calling me "good."
---Warwick on 7/1/10


Scott I we all have limited intelligence and knowledge. Do you say otherwise?

We don't even know how much there is to know so we don't know what proportion the whole of human knowledge is to the whole of the knowledge God has. So in reality as people we know, and understand little.

However the faithful have God's word and the fellowship of the person of the Holy Spirit to enlighten us:

People are baptized into His name
He is referred to as he
He is counselor
He teaches
He reminds
He testifies
He speaks
He commands
He calls Himself I
Peter equates lying to Him as lying to God.
We can have fellowship with Him

You reject this and therefore are spititually in the dark, sadly.
---Warwick on 7/1/10


David,

The Watchtower 15/11/81 p.21 urges readers to "come to Jehovah's organization (watchtower Society) for salvation."

The Watchtower 1/12/81 p.27 "unless we are in touch with this channel of communication (Watchtower Society) we will not progress along the road to life, no matter how much Bible reading we do."

The Watchtower 15/02/83 pp12-13 "to receive everlasting life in the earthly paradise we must identify that organization (Watchtower Society) and serve God as part of it."

The Watchtower claims-only through it can we be saved. Conversely Scripture says salvation comes only from our Great God, Creator and Saviour Jesus, no organization.
---Warwick on 7/1/10


Mark thank you. Such rudeness is sad but par for the course. It is what is expected for anyone who stands to defend the truth of God's word.

I love to see people released from the struggle and darkness of cults. I know people, once Muslim, now Christian and even their eyes changed. Two such friends were soldiers in Khomeni's Guard in Iran. Now Christian evangelists to Muslim's, and very effective. You should see the light of Christ in their eyes!

Yesterday I received a call from an exAtheist who 'blames' me for his salvation! He says his path began when he attended a creation evolution talk I gave. He came to undermine but was himself undermined. Now he is a Christian youth leader.

So what is a bit of crude abuse?
---Warwick on 7/1/10


George:

Yeshua (Jesus) never claimed to be "God" - He claimed to be the Son of God. In all things Christ Yeshua said and did, He deferred to the will of His Heavenly Father.

He was and is the perfect representation of The Father's perfect will. Christ IS The Word of God, who was in the beginning and was WITH God and WAS God and then came to us in the flesh, born of the virgin, Mary.

When The Almighty spoke "Let there be light", His Word made it happen. The Word of God, who is also now known as His Only Begotten Son, sits at His Father's right hand.
---Higgins on 7/1/10




I will refer the likes of Warwick to my previous posts regarding the 'Kingdom Interlinear'. He ignores the fact that Westcott and Hort compiled what JW's use as their 'KIT' because it destroys his argument.

What is evident is if Warwick and his trinitarian friends want to believe 'kyrios' at Romans 10 is "the same Lord, the Same Jehovah, Jesus Christ the Saviour" (Warwick 6/29/10) then how do they explain away Romans 10:9? The trinitarian is forced to believe "God raised God up from the dead".

Context trinitarians, context!

Hebrews 4:15 says, "He (Jesus) was tempted". James 1:13 says, "God cannot be tempted". Thus, Jesus is not AlmightyGod. This is uncontested by trinitarians.
---David8318 on 7/1/10


"...draw people away from our Lord Jesus." Warwick

By your own assertion 'people have limited intelligence and paltry knowledge'. Since you've suggested that Christians can never really understand the 'trinity', certainly a clear view of the individual Father, Son and Holy Spirit would logically be affected as well.

In reality then, it is the mysterious trinity doctrine that 'draws' people away from Jesus.

Christians should have a clear view of their savior and his relationship with the father. Our lord and redeemer highlights the importance of that knowledge at John 17:3:

"This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."
---scott on 7/1/10


Unanswered by Warwick

On 6/29/10 you argued that the only reason Jesus referred to Jehovah as 'his God' was because he was 'emptied', in a man's form. But of course Rev 3:12 in addition to Rom 15:6, 2 Cor 1:3, 11:31, Eph 1:17, 1 Peter 1:3 were all written after his resurrection and glorification in heaven and there we find references to the God of Christ.

If now your position is that Christ is merely 'distinguishing himself'...

What scriptural evidence can you provide that the word theos/God doesn't always indicate some sense of superiority over the one who refers to another as such?
---scott on 7/1/10


"You are less of a human than your Dad is..."micha9344

My wife might agree with you, but one thing's for sure (as indicated in ALL known examples of the father/son relationship, at any point in history)...

My father came first. There was certainly a time when my father existed and I did not.
---scott on 7/1/10


Warwick, you have been doing great answering and keeping your cool, when David accuses you very bad when he said,

"Now watch for the trinitarian 'psycho babble' which will attempt to explain how 'God raised God up from the dead'.
---David8318 on 6/30/10"


He is not speaking for God in anyway. Whatever you say is "psycho babble."
There is no reason to even try to discuss things with those who are of a cult. Their hearts have already hardened. No amount of Truth will suffice because his attempt is to demean whatever you say. His answers on any other blogs should just be ignored.
---MarkV. on 7/1/10


David you are strong in attack but weak as to answering questions which should be easy for you to answer if your view is correct.

Jesus said "I and the father are one." You claim He simply meant He was of one purpose with the Father, as He said He was with the Apostles. I disagree, obviously but if you are correct then I must be able to claim:

"Warwick and the Father are one." John 10:30

"He who has seen Warwick has seen the Father." John 14:9

"He who does not honour Warwick, does not honour the Father." John 5:23

"Whatever the Father does, these things Warwick also does in like manner." John 5:19

May I claim this David?
---Warwick on 7/1/10


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David you still endeavour to avoid the point. The Watchtower Interlinnear has the Greek 'Kyrios' 4 times in Romans 14:8,9 Other major Bibles translate 'Kyrios' 4 times as 'Lord.' So to be consistent and therefore correct the JW New World Translation should render 'Kyrios' as Jehovah for the 4 times it occurs in verses 8 and 9. It does not, going against its own Greek Interlinnear! Why? Because having rendered 'Kyrios' as 'Jehovah' (major Bibles use Lord) they cannot follow their own Interlinnear and be correct as to do so would call Jesus 'Jehovah.'

They have been trapped into inconsistency by their desire to use 'Jehovah' wherever 'Lord' occurs. But of course not when it refers to Jesus!
---Warwick on 6/30/10


Scott, my vestments' are not bunched, neither am I angry. I am simple saddened that you want to draw people away from our Lord Jesus. I have seen unfortunate people like you snared in the JW net before and watched them change for the worse, giving up salvation as a free gift, separating from their families, and cutting themselves off from Christians. I never expected to change your mind as you have sadly passed the point of no return.

I wrote "Does God call us 'My Son' as he called Jesus? That is, does God call any of us Son in the same way and with the same meaning as He calls Jesus? No He doesn't.

What son is the Creator, and only Saviour? I know not one.
---Warwick on 6/30/10


I GOT IT.. I understand now Scott... You are less of a human than your Dad is, even though you honor and respect him as your father..
Did you give up these human equalities or were you born without them?
Were they taken from you?
---micha9344 on 6/30/10


David,

I told you to read the writings of Saint Athanasius, Saint Cyril of Alexandria, Saint Cyril of Jersualem, Saint Augustine, Saint John Chrysostom, Saint Basil the Great, Saint Gregory the Great, Saint Leo the Great, Saint Gregory of Nyssa, Saint Gregory the Theologian, Saint Hilary of Poitiers, Saint Ambrose, Saint Gregory Thaumaturgus, Saint Jerome, and a host of other Early Christian writers for a COMPLETE refutations of your heresies and the reconciliations of the Holy Scriptures you posted. But you will not do this because you reject sound Apostolic Doctrines.

The Apostolic Fathers were not Arians. And Arius was not a Trinitarian (duh!). He used the same arguments and twisted the same Scriptures JW do.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 6/30/10


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Char, thank you, I appreciate your blessing.

He does bless me, surely even more that I am aware of!

May God bless you and give you the desire of your heart.
---Warwick on 6/30/10


David-

If the Early Church Fathers corrupted the Faith of the Church, then why it is that you follow one of their Tradition-having 27 books in the New Testament? If it weren't for the Fathers, guided by the Holy Spirit, the canonization of the Holy Bible (both the OT and NT) will have never taken placed. It was these "Platonising Early Church Fathers" (as you call them) who told you which books to accept and which to remove from the status of "Scripture".

Or does Jehovah's False Witnesses have a different NT? Or do you believe the Legend that Constantine the Great canonized the Bible? How do the JW answer their apparent hypocrisy?

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 6/30/10


Warwick,

Temper, temper. Don't get your vestments in a bunch.

I simply responded to another of your false assertions (6/30/10) that "God doesn't call anyone my son as he called Jesus".

It's your assertion, your mistake, your barrel, your dregs.

By the way, while I've made it no secret that I am now studying with Jehovah's Witnesses (though not a witness myself) your handling of these discussions makes their thoughtful and studious appreciation of God's word even more appealing.

Thank you.

You're helping in ways that you may not fully appreciate.
---scott on 6/30/10


Scott you claim David and Solomon are God's Sons as Jesus is! Were David and Solomon also angels who became man who became.....?

Of David or Solomon does Scripture say "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

Could David say "He who has seen David (the adulterous murderer) has seen the Father." (John 14:9)

Or
"Whatever the Father does,these things Solomon does in like manner." (John 5:19)

Could they Scott?

To suggest that any of us (David, Solomon Moses or Abraham) could claim to be God's Son is ludicrous. You really are scraping the bottom of the barrel to justify your distorted cultic beliefs.
---Warwick on 6/30/10


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Warwick,
May the Lord richly bless you brother-
We Praise Him for His mercy and Grace.

---char on 6/30/10


Warwick,

You have noticeably shifted the topic from Jesus referring to Jehovah as his 'God', to his 'father'. Clearly two different things.

And on 6/29/10 you argued that the only reason Jesus referred to Jehovah as 'his God' was because he was 'emptied', in a man's form. But of course Rev 3:12 in addition to Rom 15:6, 2 Cor 1:3, 11:31, Eph 1:17, 1 Peter 1:3 were all written after his resurrection and glorification in heaven and there we find references to the God of Christ.

If now your position is that Christ is merely 'distinguishing himself'...

What scriptural evidence can you provide that the word theos/God doesn't always indicate some sense of superiority when one refers to another as such?
---scott on 6/30/10


"Does God call us 'My Son' as he called Jesus? Can I call Almighty God my Father or my God." Warwick

Really?


To David:
(Minor fulfillment in David, major fulfillment in Christ, Acts 4:24-26)

"Jehovah said unto me, thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee." Psalms 2:7 ASV


To Solomon:

"I myself shall become his father, and he himself will become my son."
2 Sa 7:12-14 ASV

"Solomon...shall build my house...I have chosen him to be my son, and I will be his father." 1 Chron 28:6 ASV

"He...will be my son, and I will be his father." 1 Ch 22:10
---scott on 6/30/10


Warwick is still banging on about the 'Kingdom Interlinear'. I did reply, but he obviously ignored it.

The 'Kingdom Interlinear' contains the 'New Testament in the Original Greek' as compiled by Westcott and Hort (who were not JW's). Jehovah's Witnesses thus do not "go against its own Greek Interlinnear" as Warwick believes.

Westcott and Hort use 'Kyrios'. The NWT use 'Jehovah' at Romans 10 and Romans 14.

In Romans 10, Paul based his discussion on Joel 2:32. Paul quotes Joel 2:32 at Ro.10:13 where Jehovah's name appears in Hebrew letters in LXX at Joel 2:32.

At Romans 14:11, Paul quotes Isaiah 49:18 where Jehovah's name again appears in Hebrew letters in LXX at Isaiah 49:18.
---David8318 on 6/30/10


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So if there is only one person spoken of at Romans 10:9-13, "the same Lord, the Same Jehovah, Jesus Christ the Saviour" as Warwick believes (6/29/10), then Romans 10:9 would mean, 'God raised God up from the dead'.

This is of course trinitarian nonsense.

It's important to identify who Paul was referring to. In Romans 10 Paul used Joel 2:32 as a basis for his discussion. At Joel 2:32 in the Greek Septuagint (LXX) the Hebrew Tetragrammaton, YHWH or 'Jehovah' is found.

So Paul is referring to 2 persons at Romans 10. "God (Jehovah) raised him (Jesus) up from the dead"- Romans 10:13.

Now watch for the trinitarian 'psycho babble' which will attempt to explain how 'God raised God up from the dead'.
---David8318 on 6/30/10


Scott Jesus referred to God as my God or my Father not our God or our Father. I am sure He did this to distinguish Himself, God's Son by nature, from His disciples who are God's sons by grace and adoption.

We know from John ch. 10 Jesus repeatedly refers to God as my Father, then says the Father and I are one. And the Jews moved to stone Him because they knew He was thereby claiming to be God.

If Jesus had said 'our Father' and (as JW's say) really meant He was only one in purpose with God, would the Jews still want to stone Him for blasphemy? You know they would not.

Does God call us 'My Son' as he called Jesus? Can I call Almighty God my Father or my God as did Jesus throughout the NT?
---Warwick on 6/30/10


David I ask a few questions and you scarper.

Again you never answered my question regarding Jesus saying He is one with the Father. If, as you say Jesus' oneness with the Father is equal to that believers can have with the Father, am I able to say:

"I (Warwick) and the Father are one." ?

"He who has seen me (Warwick) has seen the Father."?

"He who does not honour Warwick, does not honour the Father."?

Am I David?
---Warwick on 6/28/10
---Warwick on 6/30/10


Ignatius, it is sound Apostolic doctrine which I have quoted you, which you are unable to deal with. You are unable to reconcile for example, the words of Apostles Paul at Hebrews 4:15 with James 1:13.

You feebly hide behind non-inspired writings of men you would rather believe than the Word of God. In fact you haven't read any of the writings of the 'Apostolic Fathers', otherwise you would have shown where they "refute" such reasoning.

You say you won't waste your time quoting such rubbish as Platonising early church fathers at me- is that a promise or is it you're hiding your own ineptness!

Arius wrote that God was an unknown 'mystery', and unfathomable. Arianism is more in tune with your trinitarian belief.
---David8318 on 6/30/10


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"Scott how many times must we answer your already answered questions?" Warwick

Just once please. Thanks.

Jesus as the glorified, risen, Son of God refers to his father as HIS God at Rev. 1:6, 3:2 and 12.

How can this be since he is no longer on earth in a slave's form?
---scott on 6/29/10


Scott how many times must we answer your already answered questions?

You claim Jesus calling God His Father and His God means He is not God. Wrong.

Prior to the incarnation Jesus had a solely divine nature. To save man, He came as man "made like His brothers in every way" Hebrews 2:17. Jesus didn't call God His God until He "emptied Himself" becoming man, Philippians 2:6-8. As fully God, but also fully man it is proper for Jesus to address God as His God, as man should. Note He also addresses God as Father and the Jews wanted to stone Him, knowing He was thereby calling Himself God!

I joyfully call Jesus God, the King of Kings, the Lord of Lords, the Alpha and the Omega, the Creator and Redeemer. Amen.
---Warwick on 6/29/10


Char you have put that so well. You have excelled yourself. Indeed our Lord Jesus Christ is many things and Isaiah plainly says He is of one substance with the Father. As Jesus said, as no other can say "I and the Father are one."
---Warwick on 6/29/10


Is 44:2223,55:11
So shall My WORD be that goeth forth out of My mouth, it shall not return unto Me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing]whereto I sent it.

In the Beginning was the Word....The WORD BECAME FLESH Jn 1:1-15

1Col 1:12-29(all) Who is the image of the invisible God the Firstborn of every creature,For by him were ALL things created, that are in heaven and in earth visible and invisible, whether [they] be thrones, or dominions,or principalities,or powers, all things were created by Him, and for Him, And [he]is before all things, and by Him all things consist.

How?
God said so.

I AM That I AM
---char on 6/29/10


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////If Jesus is the Almighty, how is it that he is said to have a God?
Can Almighty God have a God?
Mic. 5:4, Ps. 89:26, John 20:17, Rom. 15:6, 2 Cor. 1:3, Eph 1:3, Col 1:3, Mark 15:34, John 17:1-3,
Also in heaven, Rev. 1:6, 3:2, 12///

Is 9:6 answers this question:
For there has been a child born to us, and the princely rule will come upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor,Mighty God, Eternal Father,Prince of Peace.
-Where did these Words come from?
Out of the mouth of Yehovah.
In the Begninnig was The Word-became fleshJn1:1-15
The Child is called Almighy God-everlasting Father-Emmanuel-God with us.
Who is the child?
Yeshoshua-Jesus.
Yehovahs' Words in flesh.
Matt1:23-25
---char on 6/29/10


Warwick,

If Jesus is the Almighty, how is it that he is said to have a God?

Can Almighty God have a God?


Mic. 5:4, Ps. 89:26, John 20:17, Rom. 15:6, 2 Cor. 1:3, Eph 1:3, Col 1:3, Mark 15:34, John 17:1-3,

Also in heaven, Rev. 1:6, 3:2, 12
---scott on 6/29/10


//How do you scripturally...//

A body dies, the spirit is eternal. Jesus, God in a body, died, however, the Spirit of God lives forever.

tempted of - Mat 4:1, Mar 1:13, Luk 4:2

tempted (peiraz)
1) to try whether a thing can be done
a) to attempt, endeavour
2) to try, make trial of, test: for the purpose of ascertaining his quantity, or what he thinks, or how he will behave himself
a) in a good sense
b) in a bad sense, to test one maliciously, craftily to put to the proof his feelings or judgments
c) to try or test one's faith, virtue, character, by enticement to sin

by (hypo)- 1) by, under

tempted - Luk 10:25(ekpeiraz)
1) to prove, test
2) to put to proof God's character, power
---aka.joseph on 6/28/10


"I suggest Ignatius that you stop reading the writings of Platonising early church fathers and start reading the Bible." (David)

In other words, I should start reading the Bible under the guidance of your Watchtower elders ("Your Fathers").

I suggest David stop listening to the JW Watchtower erroneous interpretations of Holy Scriptures, throw away his corrupt JW translation of the Bible, and start reading Holy Scriptures as it was interpreted by the first generation of Christians.......but this probably will never happen since JW's are forbidden to read Anti-JW literature......

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 6/29/10


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To my understanding-
The beautiful thing is-we don't have to prove anything.
God is God-He will define Himself-at His Will.
His Word has gone out of His Mouth-He will confirm it-He is the Holy Spirit with us now.
Scripture:
Jesus-Immanuel-Is God with us-(EL-Almighty)Mat 1:23-25
His name in Hebrew is Yehoshua or yoshua and means-Salvation of Yehovah
Jesus is the face of God 2 Cor4:6
Yehoshua is the Word of EL in flesh-Jn1:1
He is the Name of God-Jn17:11-14
Is 9:6 He is called Mighty God(EL)-everlasting Father-Wonderful Counselor.
Jesus is the Image of the Invisible God-1Col 1:15
Jn14:26 Sent Comforter in His Name.
Revelation of Jesus Christ-alpha and Omega
---char on 6/29/10


David, as you agree Joel says anyone who calls upon the name of Jehovah will get away safe, or as most translations-will be saved. Reading the JW Greek interlinnear we see in Romans 10:9-13 Paul uses the Greek root Kyrios 3 times. The New World Translation uses 'Lord' twice but inconsistently, and incorrectly uses 'Jehovah' for the third translation of Kyrios. It makes out that two different people, Jesus and Jehovah are being spoken of. But only one person is spoken of.

They commit this misstranslation of their own Interlinnear to avoid the obvious conclusion that Joel and Paul are speaking of the same Lord, the Same Jehovah, Jesus Christ the Saviour.
---Warwick on 6/29/10


David it's quite ironic you a JW would tell someone to stick to the Bible. As anyone who has done a Bible study with JW's knows it quickly diverts from Scripture onto JW nonBiblical literature.

Also I think it interesting how JW's want to give you their literature but will not accept any NonJW literature!

BTW you never answered my question regarding Jesus saying He is one with the Father. If, as you say Jesus' oneness with the Father is equal to that believers can have with the Father, am I able to say:

"I (Warwick) and the Father are one." ?

"He who has seen me (Warwick) has seen the Father."?

"He who does not honour Warwick, does not honour the Father."?

Am I David?
---Warwick on 6/28/10


David I realize you also missed answering my question on Romans 14:7-9.

In these verses the JW New World Translation three times translates the Greek root word Kyrios as Jehovah. I have little problem with this.

However the same Greek root word is used a fourth time, in verse 9, where it refers to Jesus. The NWT inconsistently and incorrectly translates this as Lord, not Jehovah. This is strange as the Watchtowers own Kingdom Interlinnear Translation shows that in all four instances the same root word is used.

hy did the NWT Bible translators not follow their own interlinnear?



---Warwick on 6/28/10


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David, we write of Jesus-fully God, fully man.

Hebrews 1: Jesus' divinity is explained-the exact representation of God's being, sustaining all things by His powerful word...Son of God (said of no angel)..angels worship Him..sit at my right hand (the seat of equality). God the Son who says He is one with God i.e one and the same.

Hebrew 2: the Son of Man..sharing in our humanity..made like his brothers, tempted (e.g. by Satan) but did not give in to temptation...able to sympathize with our weaknesses, tempted in every way, as we are, but did not sin, as an example to us.

This is Jesus fully God, fully man as Joel 2:32 and Paul (Roman's 10:9,10) say is our Saviour the Lord-Jehovah.
---Warwick on 6/28/10


" stop reading the writings of Platonising.....fathers" (David)

Hum...it was these "Early Church Fathers" who canonized the NT, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and hence the Holy Bible.

Discussing Christology with you is futile. You are Arian, and it is clear you are not willing to accept sound Apostolic doctrines and if you want to know what are my responses to your Arian blabbing, you read the writings of Saint Athanasius or Saint Cyril of Alexandria (found online) and other Fathers. Why should I waste my time?

Nothing that you have written is "new". The Church refuted your heresies back then, and will continue to do so. It was wrong back then, and it is wrong now.....

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 6/28/10


I suggest Ignatius that you stop reading the writings of Platonising early church fathers and start reading the Bible.

Perhaps then you can attempt to give Biblical explanations as to why you believe the trinity doctrine.

How do you reconcile James 1:13 which states 'God cannot be tempted' with Hebrews 4:15 which says '(Jesus) was tempted'?

How do you scripturally explain why you believe AlmightyGod died in the form of Jesus, when scripture clearly shows that AlmightyGod is eternal and cannot die?

Up until now trinitarians have only been able to explain using trinitarian 'psycho babble', suggesting that Jesus was some sort of schizophrenic. Is that how your Platonising early church fathers saw Jesus?
---David8318 on 6/28/10


John 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
Hebrews 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Isaiah 42:8 I [am] the LORD: that [is] my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
---micha9344 on 6/28/10


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By sharing your personal testimony, and by doing Jesus' works, and speaking Jesus' words.
~ For he is Lord. He is Lord.
He has risen from the dead and he is Lord.
Every knee will bow, and every tongue confess,
that Jesus Christ is the Lord.
For he is the Lord. Only he is the Lord.
He has risen, he has risen from the dead, and he is Lord.
Every single knee that he made will bow,
and every tongue confess,
that Jesus Christ is the Lord.
For he is my Lord. Only he is my Lord.
He has risen, he has risen from the dead, and he's my Lord.
Even my knee will bow, and even my tongue confess,
that Jesus Christ is the Lord...
---Eloy on 6/28/10


micha9344

We can go through the writings of the Early God-Bearing Fathers and refute what these modern-day Arians teach, but many here, like David8318, a modern day resurrected Arian in the False Jehovah Witness sect, have already made up there mind to reject the Holy Doctrines of the Holy Apostles, there Holy Successors, and the God-Bearing Fathers.

Micha, if one actually read the writings of the Early God-bearing Fathers, such as Saint Athanasius or Saint Cyril of Alexandria, the Father of Christology, one will find rebuttals to ALL the Arian babbling of David and others. Isn't it amazing? He claims we can't explain this or that, but we can. He hasn't said anything that wasn't refuted by them!

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 6/28/10


So despite what Warwick and trinitarians promote, Jesus is not God.

Jesus is not Jehovah of Romans 10:13 or Joel 2:32 unless you believe 'God raised God from the dead' at Romans 10:9.

Jesus is not God because according to Hebrews 4:15, Jesus was 'tempted'. However, James 1:13 says, 'God cannot be tempted'.

Jesus also said when as flesh on earth, 'God is a Spirit' at John 4:24. Peter said Jesus was 'put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the Spirit' (1 Pe.3:18). It stands to reason then that Jesus was NOT 'God the Spirit' when he said what he said at John 4:24.

AlmightyGod cannot die as he is eternal. Jesus is thus not God because Jesus died for our sins.

Warwick still insists Jesus is AlmightyGod.
---David8318 on 6/28/10


God's name in the form of the Hebrew Tetragrammaton (YHWH) appears at Joel 2:32 and is correctly translated 'everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will get away safe'.

At Romans 10:13 Paul quotes Joel 2:32. Thus, when YHWH appears in LXX and the original Hebrew, then it's appropriate for translators not influenced by Neo-platonic, trinitarian philosophy to include the divine name in a verse quoted from the Hebrew by an Apostle.

Romans 10:13 correctly translates- 'everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.' This supports the context of Romans10. Verse 9- 'Jesus is Lord' ('Kyrios'), not 'Jehovah'. Jesus is not Jehovah unless you also believe 'God raised God up from the dead' as v9 teaches if you are a trinitarian.
---David8318 on 6/28/10


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The only apostate here is the resurrected heresy Arius tried to propogate 1800 years ago and was thoroughly rejected by the elders throughout all Christendom at that time. That Jesus Christ, the Word was ever with God as His begotten Son/Word sharing glory and Spirit as Creator. Shall we bring up quotes yet again of 2nd and 3rd century elders who believed this?
Does it not make you wonder if you have been blinded by the evil one, who knows full well the scriptures and even tempted the Lord Himself to no avail, thus finding out that the Word of God had truly been sent to Earth?
Are you not hardhearted and stiffnecked to all the scripture that discribes or shows the 3 entities of God? I am sure you will have issue with the word 'entity'.
---micha9344 on 6/28/10


You can't wriggle out Warwick! You believe Jesus is AlmightyGod, that's what you said in a previous post, 'Jesus had to be man to die... Jesus is the only Creator and Saviour therefore He is Almighty God'. (Warwick 6/27/10).

You as a trinitarian Warwick are forced to believe by your human paramours that AlmightyGod died in the form of Jesus- 'the Word was God', 'God was manifest in flesh'. This is what you trinitarians propagate.

This is trinitarian apostate nonsense. AlmightyGod cannot die. AlmightyGod is eternal. Warwick and his human teaching of the trinity is false, and is cultist fantasy.

Jesus Christ, 'the Son of God' died- he had to die for us. But it was not his Father the AlmightyGod and creator who is eternal.
---David8318 on 6/28/10


Only our religion has a REAL, living savior who ministers for us daily in the heavenly sanctuary. All others must plead their own merits for salvation. We plead the merits of Jesus applied to our sins.
---jerry6593 on 6/25/10


Romans 1:20 "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." Such strong evidence that no one has any excuse not to believe. The NT says Jesus is that Creator therefore the true God.

Some will argue that this world appeared by chance random processes-no intelligent input necessary. However we live in a world of amazing complexity which must come from a source of even greater complexity. That is our creator and Redeemer the Lord Jesus.

God's Genesis revelation of creation fits with what we observe daily. What other creation story fits the facts?
---Warwick on 6/24/10


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Oh my goodness Catherine. Like you said in the other blog, believers being lost, Yes being disobedient.
God wants you, yes He'l make the way, Matt. 10 v 22, Luke 16 v 16.
I am 1 that's connected to the early Church that was born on the day of Pentecost according to Acts 2 v's 37 - 41 which Fulfills Matt.28 v's 19 - 20. The Saints that the roman emperor with nero went to kill off with the great crusades. The devil with the roman emperor & nero didn't kill us all, we are still alive & well today. We are the ones that are hated Matt.10 v 22 because of Jesus name, NOT the Man-made trin - relig - org's churches that Is here Matt.15 v 9, 2nd.Cor,4 v 4 that came from here 2nd.Cor.11 v's 14 - 15 & here also Rev.17 v's 4 - 6.
---Lawrence on 6/24/10


they don't believe your Bible and if the HS dosen't convict them, YOU can't,
---michael_e on 6/23/10


Oh my goodness such a good question. I am not sure where to begin. Every time, I feel like leaving, I don't get very far. God has a way of keeping me. God will reveal Himself to you. I have had two visions of my Savior. I have heard His voice more than once. [what a vioce]. I know His power, His passion, oh my goodness. I know His discipling, ouch, ouch that hurts. I believe God chases me down just to give me the "old what for" Why doesn't He pick on somebody else? And give me a break. He saved me, I have His Blood shooting up me. He showed me HELL. I have His peace and I have His displeasure. I might be running out of room, here.
---catherine on 6/23/10


I think that the most concrete "proof" given in the Bible is the prophecy of the actual date of His ministry and His sacrificial death given in Dan 9:24-27. The true Messiah God MUST begin His ministry in AD 30 and be sacrificed 3 1/2 years later.
---jerry6593 on 6/23/10


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Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

John 1:3 All things were made by him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
---francis on 6/22/10


Prove it with scriptures.

Psa.111 v 9 Is Jesus Christ.
Isa.9 v 6 Is Jesus Christ.
Matt.28 v 19 Is Jesus Christ.
1st.Tim.3 v 16 Is Jesus Christ.
John 10 v 1 Is Jesus Christ.
John 14 v's 8 - 9 Jesus Christ Is God.
John 20 v's 27 - 28 Jesus Christ Is God.
Rev.22 v 13 Jesus said I am Alpha ( This makes Jesus Christ God in the beginning ), Jesus said I am the Omega ( This makes Jesus Christ God in the ending ).

There's Only 1 God & His name is Jesus Christ.
---Lawrence on 6/22/10


Walk in the Spirit of Christ, and do the works of Christ: evenso not all will believe.
---Eloy on 1/3/08


I believe we should first to KNOW the Bible and all references to Jesus's coming, His time here, and where He can be found now. Then, the most difficult part is to KNOW the person's faith you wish to discuss. Know why they believe in their religion. This part is difficult as you subject yourself to another faith. IF you are not strong, well grounded in Jesus you could be swayed away from Him. Lastly but very important, respect the other person as you "share and compare".
---mikefl on 1/2/08


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ME! I am saved. I felt God's blood running through me at the time that I was saved. He started speaking to me audibly. I have actually heard His voice. Oh, He is the real God alright, His son that saved the likes of me. How I wish everyone knew this and believed this.
---catherine on 5/29/07


No mere man could say and do the things he did consistantly and without sin. Jesus' life speaks for itself.

The Old Testament speaks about Messiah, and it's also very true that the life of Jesus shows fufillment of many of these prophecies. Some good points are psalm 22 and Isaiah 53 that are easily compared to New Testament scriptures.

The other point is the seemingly unexplainable change in the Apostles from cowards to bold men who defied death so that the message would not be lost.
---Pharisee on 5/29/07


Born a Jew- but I tried many gods/religions. I invoked the goetia/demons,angels,& guides looking for truth-read tons of "ancient" texts. I enjoyed being a sinner,was good at it.I was so hungry. I came to Jesus due to peoples personal testimony U see I could not dismiss-or argue that away. I watched them cautiously, pushed hard even-they came back at me as hard but w/truth covered in love. U cant agrue w/a smiling enemy!
---Jeanne on 11/6/06


John 10:17,18 "Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it up again. No man taketh if from me, but I lay it down, and I have power to take it up again. This is the commandment I have received of my Father" The words of Jesus. Who other than Almighty God Himself could ever made such a bold statement & fulfill it. Has the god of any other religon ever been known to have raised the body created for himself from the dead, or to have raised the dead period?
---josef on 10/26/06


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Tell people to "taste and see that the Lord is good." They can ask God for a sign, or what I've heard people ask God, "Lord if you are real, show me a sign." Then pray that God soften their heart and ask God to reveal Himself to that person.
---Donna9759 on 10/24/06


greetings, be more like him.the more that people labor to do so the more of jesus people will see .(mirroring to reflecting)
---earl on 10/24/06


In the shortest possible terms this question can be answered in one word" study prophecy".
---mima on 10/23/06


He who has the Son has life, he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. 1John 5:12,13
---Raine on 10/23/06


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It is impossible for us to prove Jesus. Only Jesus Himself, through us, can do this. We must pray that He become more, and we become less. Only then will this world be touched. We marvel at the words He used. We are incapable of speaking such words into people's lives. Let Him speak through us.
---laure5759 on 10/23/06


I think we show Jesus is the real God by the example we give other people. When his light shines through us - others see the miracle.

There is a saying. Preach the Gospel - If necessary use words.

Grace
---grace3869 on 10/22/06


My God is the only One Who ever had a Son. My God is the only One Who ever gave His Son in Sacrifice for sin on the Cross. No other religion or god can claim this.
---Helen_5378 on 10/22/06


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